LHO was in Mexico City

[Sandy Larsen]

10 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

As far as Duran, I seem to recall that she ended up talking to Phil Shenon for his book and that the point of contention was not that she claimed she never met with Oswald, but that she continued to dispute that she'd taken Oswald out to a dance, or whatever.

 

For the HSCA, Duran said that Oswald was blond and short (about 5'6"). Ben posted a document showing that, above. She thought he was the same person who she saw on TV shooting Ruby.

But later, when shown a clear photo of Oswald, she said that he wasn't the person she had dealt with.

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of that source document. But I vividly recall reading it. I probably saw it on this thread:

 

 

It's important to keep in mind that both the people "Oswald" met at the Cuban Consulate said that the "Oswald" they talked to was blond. It's important to keep in mind that Cuban Intelligence concluded that the person claiming to be Oswald at their consulate in MC wasn't Oswald at all, but a CIA imposter.

BTW, as it turns out, my MC theory is pretty much the same as what Cuban Intelligence determined.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I would have to say Duran (Tirado) does not appear to be a reliable witness. 

 

The other witness, Consul Eusebio Azcue, corroborated her claim that their "Oswald" was blond. And both -- upon seeing a clear photo of the real Oswald -- specifically said that he wasn't the "Oswald" they'd met.

 

8 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

She also stated that LHO signed applications in her presence and she stapled his photo to the applications. That seems to raise questions. 

 

David Josephs has studied the applications closely. I think that one of the photos has no staple, and so there appears to be something fishy about that.

As for the signature... it would be easy for an imposter to learn how to copy Oswald's signature.

 

8 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

And if you say "Azcue said," then mention "Mirabal said." 

 

Mirabel overheard the commotion made by the blond Oswald, but didn't get a good look at him.

 

8 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But being devoted to a [communist] cause may have colored Duran's and Azcue's commentary. Why are they taken at their word, but the KGB'ers are not? 

 

Oh, like KGB agent's aren't devoted to a communist cause?

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

The other witness, Consul Eusebio Azcue, corroborated her claim that their "Oswald" was blond. And both -- upon seeing a clear photo of the real Oswald -- specifically said that he wasn't the "Oswald" they'd met.

 

 

David Josephs has studied the applications closely. I think that one of the photos has no staple, and so there appears to be something fishy about that.

As for the signature... it would be easy for an imposter to learn how to copy Oswald's signature.

 

 

Mirabel overheard the commotion made by the blond Oswald, but didn't get a good look at him.

 

 

Oh, like KGB agent's aren't devoted to a communist cause?

 

Curiously, the HSCA also suspected Duran herself might be a CIA asset, but left the question unresolved. 

I would say there is enough fog in this one to make hard and fast conclusions...well, a stretch. 

As for the KGB'ers as earnest commies--that's my point.

If you do not believe the KGB'ers, then why believe Duran and Azcue? 

My infallible lie detector has been on the fritz. 

[Sandy Larsen]

17 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Curiously, the HSCA also suspected Duran herself might be a CIA asset, but left the question unresolved. 

 

That's because the fake stories given by Elena Garro and Gilberto Alvarado (about Oswald and a red-haired back guy fraternizing with Duran and Cuban officials, and about Oswald being paid $6500 to kill Kennedy) made it appear as though Duran was part of the assassination plot.

Since it was known to the HSCA that Garro and Alvarado were CIA assets, and were paid by the CIA to give their fake stories, they naturally wondered who else involved with Oswald might be CIA.

Also, those who suspected the assassination plot came from the CIA, naturally wondered if Duran was under their control.

 

17 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I would say there is enough fog in this one to make hard and fast conclusions...well, a stretch. 

 

This is an easy to understand plot if one doesn't fall for the lies given by Warren Commission and the late-date KGB agents' accounts.

To understand the plot, it helps if -- for a moment -- one accepts that Oswald wasn't even in Mexico City. Then, once one understands the plot, one can put Oswald back in if they so choose. The plot still works.

 

17 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If you do not believe the KGB'ers, then why believe Duran and Azcue? 

 

First, let me make the point that it doesn't really matter whether or not the real Oswald visited the Cuban Consulate. So if Duran and Azcue are wrong about Oswald being blond, the theory that I, Jim DiEugenio, Peter Dale Scott, and many others believe still works.

That said...

First, Azcue's and Duran's statements that their "Oswald" was blond is early, whereas the statements of the ex-KGB men is late... 30 years after the fact. Early testimony trumps late testimony.

Second, there was no incentive for Duran and Azcue to say that their Oswald was blond. In contrast, the ex-KGB agents were out of a job and needed money. They had an incentive to lie.

Third, the ex-KGB's narrative paints Oswald's action to be fantastical and out of character for Oswald. The type of thing that would sell a book.

Fouth, if one believes Duran and Azcue, one can still hold onto a perfectly logical theory explaining the Mexico City shenanigans.

Fifth, the ex-KGB's narrative is inconsistent with the MC shenanigan theory that otherwise works.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

That's because the fake stories given by Elena Garro and Gilberto Alvarado (about Oswald and a red-haired back guy fraternizing with Duran and Cuban officials, and about Oswald being paid $6500 to kill Kennedy) made it appear as though Duran was part of the assassination plot.

Since it was known to the HSCA that Garro and Alvarado were CIA assets, and were paid by the CIA to give their fake stories, they naturally wondered who else involved with Oswald might be CIA.

Also, those who suspected the assassination plot came from the CIA, naturally wondered if Duran was under their control.

 

 

This is an easy to understand plot if one doesn't fall for the lies given by Warren Commission and the late-date KGB agents' accounts.

To understand the plot, it helps if -- for a moment -- one accepts that Oswald wasn't even in Mexico City. Then, once one understands the plot, one can put Oswald back in if they so choose. The plot still works.

 

 

First, let me make the point that it doesn't really matter whether or not the real Oswald visited the Cuban Consulate. So if Duran and Azcue are wrong about Oswald being blond, the theory that I, Jim DiEugenio, Peter Dale Scott, and many others believe still works.

That said...

First, Azcue's and Duran's statements that their "Oswald" was blond is early, whereas the statements of the ex-KGB men is late... 30 years after the fact. Early testimony trumps late testimony.

Second, there was no incentive for Duran and Azcue to say that their Oswald was blond. In contrast, the ex-KGB agents were out of a job and needed money. They had an incentive to lie.

Third, the ex-KGB's narrative paints Oswald's action to be fantastical and out of character for Oswald. The type of thing that would sell a book.

Fouth, if one believes Duran and Azcue, one can still hold onto a perfectly logical theory explaining the Mexico City shenanigans.

Fifth, the ex-KGB's narrative is inconsistent with the MC shenanigan theory that otherwise works.

 

Well, we are on different pages on this one. 

On to the New Year which I hope for me, you and everyone else is a step up. 

[David Josephs]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:53 PM, Leslie Sharp said:

there is nothing to establish where the Oswald-who-served-as-perfect-patsy-in-the-TSBD was on September 27, other than Odio's vague recollection?

Vague Leslie?  as well as her sister...  Or the Shooting range on the 28th, in Dallas.?

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you have any doubts in your mind after looking at these pictures (links below) that the man that was in your apartment was the same man as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your sister see the men?
Mrs. ODIO. She saw the three of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with her since that time?
Mrs. ODIO. I just had to discuss it because it was bothering me. I just had to know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she think it was Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing--the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of shirt was it, a white shirt?
Mrs. ODIO. No; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Almost to his elbows?
Mrs. ODIO. No; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a tie?
Mrs. ODIO. No tie.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a sport shirt, or working shirt?
Mrs. ODIO. He had it open. I don't know if he had a collar or not, but it was open. And the other one had a white undershirt. One of them was very hairy. Where was I? I just want to remember everything.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald's picture on television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you know, as the man that had been in the apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said, "Yes," and she said, "I know him." "He was the one that came to our door, and it couldn't be so, could it?"

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Father McKann that the name Oswald was never used in your presence by any of these men?
Mrs. ODIO. Never was used except to introduce me, and the time when they left. They did not refer to him as Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. But they did in fact, introduce him as Leon Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. And I shook hands with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass out as soon as you had heard that the President had been shot?
Mrs. ODIO. No; when I started thinking about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard that Oswald was involved in it before you passed out?
Mrs. ODIO. Can I say something off the record?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
(Witness talks off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. At this point let's go back on the record. You indicated that you thought perhaps the three men who had come to your apartment had something to do with the assassination?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph that has been marked as Bringuier Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can identify anybody in that photograph?
Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER With the X?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?
Mrs. ODIO. No.

(B Exh #1 in the WCR is very dark... you can't make out that that may be William Shelley in the dark suit.)

 

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt that that man with the green line over his head in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B Was the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, if it is not, it is his twin.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a photograph that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. I https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1137#relPageId=24 and ask you if you recognize that man.
Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure?
Mrs. ODIO. He doesn't have the little thing, the little moustache that he had that day. He looks shaved there, and he did not look shaved that day.

 

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think this man in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C is Lee Harvey Oswald? 
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I think that is him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that is the man that was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, let me say something. I think this man was the one that was in my apartment. I am not too sure of that picture. He didn't look like this. He was smiling that day. He was more smiling than in this picture.

[David Josephs]

On 12/27/2023 at 6:28 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

But later, when shown a clear photo of Oswald, she said that he wasn't the person she had dealt with.

She was also never shown the application she supposedly worked on, with our man Oswald's photos.

[Denny Zartman]

Just as an aside, I 100% believe that's Bill Shelley in the leafleting photo.

[Paul Cummings]

51 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

Just as an aside, I 100% believe that's Bill Shelley in the leafleting photo.

I thought that as well but Larry Hancock believes it's Beckham.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Denny Zartman said:

Just as an aside, I 100% believe that's Bill Shelley in the leafleting photo.

 

As do I.

Bill Shelley and Lee Harvey Oswald were two CIA agents/assets working at CIA front company, Texas School Book Depository. That's what I believe.

Of course, not every employee of CIA front companies work for the CIA. Fronts typically do legitimate business. But at least one of the top officers is CIA. Thus, Truly is CIA too. IMO.

 

[David Josephs]

4 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Just as an aside, I 100% believe that's Bill Shelley in the leafleting photo.

I thru that out there a while back right around when others were thinking the same thoughts.

If that's provably Shelley, that's one long nail for the coffin.

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Thus, Truly is CIA too. IMO.

Would you agree there's a big different between "working for" and "useable asset".

CIA assets produce reports which are then summarized in reports higher up the chain.  Have you any indication/sources for your opinion that TRULY was ever considered or used as an asset; even moreso to support his working for them?

As to LHO "working for" the CIA as opposed to being an asset... that too - for me at least - would require a bit more corroboration.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

56 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

As to LHO "working for" the CIA as opposed to being an asset... that too - for me at least - would require a bit more corroboration.

 

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott testified that he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”  Contemporaneous HSCA notes indicate Wilcott told staffers, but wasn't allowed to say in Executive session, that the cryptonym for the CIA's "Oswald Project" was RX-ZIM.
2. Oswald was a false defector who spied on his Russian employer. He returned with his “Lives of Russian Workers” intelligence report. Which back then was important information given that there were few American spies in Russia during that era.
3. Oswald was always poor, but lived high on the hog on his trip to Russia.
4. CIA's Ann Egerter, who worked for Angleton's Counterintelligence Special Interest Group (CI/SIG), opened a "201" file on Oswald in 1960.  Egerter testified to the HSCA: "We were charged with the investigation of Agency personnel....”  When asked if the purpose was to "investigate Agency employees," she answered, "That is correct."  When asked, "Would there be any other reason for opening up a file?" she answered, "No, I can't think of one.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Have you any indication/sources for your opinion that TRULY was ever considered or used as an asset; even moreso to support his working for them?

 

Circumstantial evidence indicates that the TSBD is a CIA front company. Because shooters, fake and/or real, were given access to the place for use in the CIA-planned assassination.

At least one officer of a front company is a CIA employee. That's just a fact. (I used to do contract work for the CIA, and did some work at front companies.)

I believe that Truly is our man because he gave Oswald the job there. More specifically:

I believe that Oswald's handler instructed him to follow Ruth Paine's advice regarding work. I believe that Ruth Paine's handler instructed her to call Truly and ask about a job for Oswald. And I believe that Truly's handler instructed him to offer Oswald a job. That is how the CIA got Oswald into the building he needed to be in. IMO.

Some forum members say that it was by coincidence that Oswald got the job at the TSBD. I call that hogwash.

 

[Leslie Sharp]

7 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Vague Leslie?  as well as her sister...  Or the Shooting range on the 28th, in Dallas.?

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, do you have any doubts in your mind after looking at these pictures (links below) that the man that was in your apartment was the same man as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your sister see the men?
Mrs. ODIO. She saw the three of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed this with her since that time?
Mrs. ODIO. I just had to discuss it because it was bothering me. I just had to know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she think it was Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing--the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of shirt was it, a white shirt?
Mrs. ODIO. No; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Almost to his elbows?
Mrs. ODIO. No; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a tie?
Mrs. ODIO. No tie.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a sport shirt, or working shirt?
Mrs. ODIO. He had it open. I don't know if he had a collar or not, but it was open. And the other one had a white undershirt. One of them was very hairy. Where was I? I just want to remember everything.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald's picture on television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you know, as the man that had been in the apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said, "Yes," and she said, "I know him." "He was the one that came to our door, and it couldn't be so, could it?"

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell Father McKann that the name Oswald was never used in your presence by any of these men?
Mrs. ODIO. Never was used except to introduce me, and the time when they left. They did not refer to him as Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. But they did in fact, introduce him as Leon Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. And I shook hands with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass out as soon as you had heard that the President had been shot?
Mrs. ODIO. No; when I started thinking about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard that Oswald was involved in it before you passed out?
Mrs. ODIO. Can I say something off the record?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
(Witness talks off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. At this point let's go back on the record. You indicated that you thought perhaps the three men who had come to your apartment had something to do with the assassination?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph that has been marked as Bringuier Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can identify anybody in that photograph?
Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER With the X?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?
Mrs. ODIO. No.

(B Exh #1 in the WCR is very dark... you can't make out that that may be William Shelley in the dark suit.)

 

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt that that man with the green line over his head in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B Was the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, if it is not, it is his twin.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a photograph that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. I https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1137#relPageId=24 and ask you if you recognize that man.
Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure?
Mrs. ODIO. He doesn't have the little thing, the little moustache that he had that day. He looks shaved there, and he did not look shaved that day.

 

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think this man in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C is Lee Harvey Oswald? 
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; I think that is him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that is the man that was in your apartment?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, let me say something. I think this man was the one that was in my apartment. I am not too sure of that picture. He didn't look like this. He was smiling that day. He was more smiling than in this picture.

I should have been precise: vague as to date of the encounter.

[Leslie Sharp]

On 12/28/2023 at 7:26 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

As do I.

Bill Shelley and Lee Harvey Oswald were two CIA agents/assets working at CIA front company, Texas School Book Depository. That's what I believe.

Of course, not every employee of CIA front companies work for the CIA. Fronts typically do legitimate business. But at least one of the top officers is CIA. Thus, Truly is CIA too. IMO.

 

 I pursued this years ago, and to a tenant, the publishing companies' boards included one, and in several instances two, retired military brass. Nathan Twining jumps to mind.

Edited January 1 by Leslie Sharp