LHO was in Mexico City

[David Josephs]

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DJ-

I have different interpretations on some materials. 

But hey...perhaps I am merely a benighted soul, floundering in a sea of mis-, dis- and mal-information. 

I do suspect contend LHO was likely a CIA asset, or at least of some other intel agency working with the CIA. 

Carry on. As I always say, if you put three JFKA researchers into a room you will get five firmly held opinions, three of which are contradictory. 

I think highly of your research. 

 

 

@Leslie Sharp  thanks Leslie... btw, we got some talking to do 🙂. send me a note when you have the time to catch up.

Ben, 

I'm all for differing viewpoints and interpretations... but with some level of confidence derived from some acceptable level of source materials.  I must take the time to go back to your profile and read thru your posts and your explanations.

As to LHO a CIA asset.  The Russian infiltration project which began in the late 50's was designed to get Americans into Russia for the purpose of gathering information. 

side note:  after WW2 the Americans enlisted the Gehlen: The Gehlen Organization or Gehlen Org (often referred to as The Org) was an intelligence agency established in June 1946 by U.S. occupation authorities in the United States zone of post-war occupied Germany, and consisted of former members of the 12th Department of the German Army General Staff (Foreign Armies East, or FHO). It was headed by Reinhard Gehlen who had previously been a Wehrmacht Major General and head of the Nazi German military intelligence in the Eastern Front during World War II.

"Operating until 1956, when it was superseded by the BND, the Gehlen Organisation was allowed to employ at least 100 former Gestapo or SS officers. ... Among them were Adolf Eichmann’s deputy Alois Brunner, who would go on to die of old age despite having sent more than 100,000 Jews to ghettos or internment camps, and ex-SS major Emil Augsburg. ... Many ex-Nazi functionaries including Silberbauer, the captor of Anne Frank, transferred over from the Gehlen Organisation to the BND. ... Instead of expelling them, the BND even seems to have been willing to recruit more of them – at least for a few years"

By the late 50's any access to Russian intelligence was basically gone.  Gehlen had also played many a dirty trick to his US CIA benefactors.  The CIA was in essence blind in Russia.  So begins the Russian defector program of 1958.

Does this constitute "being a CIA asset" for as we know many CIA assets are under cover of US Military.  I firmly believe it does although it may have looked more like a military asset to anyone looking closely.  Furthermore, the manner and stories related to Oswald getting to Russia is an area of study unto itself and one I've discussed in other threads on this forum.

Is LHO a CIA asset as he is driving from New Orleans to Dallas with 2 Cubans? or is that FBI?
The FPCC charade could also have been either group.

He gets jobs he should never have a chance at... Jaggers being one.  Working for Reilly in New Orleans screams CIA

side note: in Chicago, "a few days" before Nov 2nd when JFK is due to attend a football game, the Secret Service informs the Chicago police about one ARTHUR VALLEE who is stopped on a traffic violation and is found to have a small arsenal including an M-1 and 2500 rounds.  The violation comes as a result of the Chicago police watching VALLEE based on the SS tip (a tip for which there is no source info) and a SS interview of VALLEE on Oct 30.

FBI reports bend over backward to include the name OSWALD in a number of VALLEE reports

 

We can debate endlessly regarding MX - which I will get to - or whether Oswald was CIA - but with what goal?
The complete lack of concern over this incident in Chicago, with yet another disgruntled Marine on JFK's motorcade route with an arsenal makes me once again wonder what being a CIA or FBI "asset" means.  In this one report we have VALLEE, OSWALD, KLEINS, WALDMAN, FPCC & ROSSEN.

Now add this FBI report: DENIAL DENIAL. "One of the men was NOT Oswald" "4 men were NOT arrest"

So what's going on here... who is protecting who?  And why were the SS travel records for Oct/Nov 1963 destroyed?

So I have to ask Ben... what does LHO being an FBI or CIA asset mean to you?  How does it change/enhance the conspiracy to implicate him?  I mean it's one thing to just say he was a CIA asset...  I'm asking "So what"?

This is why I see the MX they showed us in the evidence left behind as a complete red herring to the assassination.  That Bill Simpich and others are much closer to the non-assassination related activities exposure than an easily seen planting operation to keep the FBI in line when it was needed.

 

In my mind, Mexico City is akin to Hannukah.  For those not Jewish, Hannukah is perceived as some huge, present-giving mega celebration due to it's timing relationship to Christmas, Rugrats Hannukah and Adam Sandler's song. 🙂

In reality, like MX, it's not all that.  It's a minor holiday about a specific event in history which is celebrated with some level of festival... but nothing like Purim or Sukkot.  Let alone Passover or Yom Kippur.

We have 2 different events... whatever was going on down there, and the ripple effect of his name after 10/8.

Looking carefully at 10/8 thru 11/22.  What is the ripple effect and who is it most affecting?

Why does the FBI produce a mountain of conflicting paper to hide the fact they knew he wasn't there?
Why, when they learn one avenue of travel was not possible, they simply drop it for the next logical one?

This report for example tells the FBI that the manner in which they claimed he returned, would not have gotten him to where he needed to be when he was actually there.  So they changed the journey to what was needed... if you read these chapters - which I admit are heavily laden with detail - it will certainly amaze you what the FBI did to support the CIA claiming he was down there.

https://www.kennedysandking.com/content/mexico-city-part-4-leaving-mexico-part-1 

 

[David Josephs]

7 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

David, which “French espionage activities in USA” do you think Hoover is referring to?  

I'd have to think this was the MARTEL incident as told by Philippe de Vosjoli in Life many years after the fact.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP70B00338R000200170118-8.pdf

But I've only started to research this - had never been asked this and you being who you are probably knows exactly what this refers to... dont ya?

[Eddy Bainbridge]

I have a poorly evidenced theory on Mexico City :

Oswald in MX was a David Phillips operation to sheep dip Oswald for purposes unknown.

Phillips did not factor into the plan that Oswald was unpredictable and usable by others. Oswald made a 'mistake' and that mistake was to be drawn in by JFK's assassins.

This separation between Oswald in MX and Oswald in Dallas thus explains the mess created within the intelligence agencies. The MX operation didn't need the level of backup forced upon it by the JFKA. Within the Intelligence Agencies there wasn't a consensus, and hanging together a watertight story became impossible.

[Joe Bauer]

Mae Brussels was all over the Gehlen/Paper Clip/dirty deeds history.

If she wasn't the first to expose it's nefarious provenance, she was one of the first.

[Leslie Sharp]

3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I'd have to think this was the MARTEL incident as told by Philippe de Vosjoli in Life many years after the fact.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP70B00338R000200170118-8.pdf

But I've only started to research this - had never been asked this and you being who you are probably knows exactly what this refers to... dont ya?

I might play cat and mouse with some members, but never with you, my friend!

The brouhaha over the Souetre/Mertz/Roux expulsion didn’t surface until weeks later as far as I know. But, it’s possible the director had already been read in?  Sullivan would be the logical liaison to INS I think.
 

Hoover might have considered de Vosjoli / Martel a ‘spy’ but Angleton certainly didn’t — except perhaps his spy.

I just find it intriguing, in context of Lafitte's notes about the MC trip, that Oswald AND the French are written ‘in the same breath.’

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, David Josephs said:

@Leslie Sharp  thanks Leslie... btw, we got some talking to do 🙂. send me a note when you have the time to catch up.

Ben, 

I'm all for differing viewpoints and interpretations... but with some level of confidence derived from some acceptable level of source materials.  I must take the time to go back to your profile and read thru your posts and your explanations.

As to LHO a CIA asset.  The Russian infiltration project which began in the late 50's was designed to get Americans into Russia for the purpose of gathering information. 

side note:  after WW2 the Americans enlisted the Gehlen: The Gehlen Organization or Gehlen Org (often referred to as The Org) was an intelligence agency established in June 1946 by U.S. occupation authorities in the United States zone of post-war occupied Germany, and consisted of former members of the 12th Department of the German Army General Staff (Foreign Armies East, or FHO). It was headed by Reinhard Gehlen who had previously been a Wehrmacht Major General and head of the Nazi German military intelligence in the Eastern Front during World War II.

"Operating until 1956, when it was superseded by the BND, the Gehlen Organisation was allowed to employ at least 100 former Gestapo or SS officers. ... Among them were Adolf Eichmann’s deputy Alois Brunner, who would go on to die of old age despite having sent more than 100,000 Jews to ghettos or internment camps, and ex-SS major Emil Augsburg. ... Many ex-Nazi functionaries including Silberbauer, the captor of Anne Frank, transferred over from the Gehlen Organisation to the BND. ... Instead of expelling them, the BND even seems to have been willing to recruit more of them – at least for a few years"

By the late 50's any access to Russian intelligence was basically gone.  Gehlen had also played many a dirty trick to his US CIA benefactors.  The CIA was in essence blind in Russia.  So begins the Russian defector program of 1958.

Does this constitute "being a CIA asset" for as we know many CIA assets are under cover of US Military.  I firmly believe it does although it may have looked more like a military asset to anyone looking closely.  Furthermore, the manner and stories related to Oswald getting to Russia is an area of study unto itself and one I've discussed in other threads on this forum.

Is LHO a CIA asset as he is driving from New Orleans to Dallas with 2 Cubans? or is that FBI?
The FPCC charade could also have been either group.

He gets jobs he should never have a chance at... Jaggers being one.  Working for Reilly in New Orleans screams CIA

side note: in Chicago, "a few days" before Nov 2nd when JFK is due to attend a football game, the Secret Service informs the Chicago police about one ARTHUR VALLEE who is stopped on a traffic violation and is found to have a small arsenal including an M-1 and 2500 rounds.  The violation comes as a result of the Chicago police watching VALLEE based on the SS tip (a tip for which there is no source info) and a SS interview of VALLEE on Oct 30.

FBI reports bend over backward to include the name OSWALD in a number of VALLEE reports

 

We can debate endlessly regarding MX - which I will get to - or whether Oswald was CIA - but with what goal?
The complete lack of concern over this incident in Chicago, with yet another disgruntled Marine on JFK's motorcade route with an arsenal makes me once again wonder what being a CIA or FBI "asset" means.  In this one report we have VALLEE, OSWALD, KLEINS, WALDMAN, FPCC & ROSSEN.

Now add this FBI report: DENIAL DENIAL. "One of the men was NOT Oswald" "4 men were NOT arrest"

So what's going on here... who is protecting who?  And why were the SS travel records for Oct/Nov 1963 destroyed?

So I have to ask Ben... what does LHO being an FBI or CIA asset mean to you?  How does it change/enhance the conspiracy to implicate him?  I mean it's one thing to just say he was a CIA asset...  I'm asking "So what"?

This is why I see the MX they showed us in the evidence left behind as a complete red herring to the assassination.  That Bill Simpich and others are much closer to the non-assassination related activities exposure than an easily seen planting operation to keep the FBI in line when it was needed.

 

In my mind, Mexico City is akin to Hannukah.  For those not Jewish, Hannukah is perceived as some huge, present-giving mega celebration due to it's timing relationship to Christmas, Rugrats Hannukah and Adam Sandler's song. 🙂

In reality, like MX, it's not all that.  It's a minor holiday about a specific event in history which is celebrated with some level of festival... but nothing like Purim or Sukkot.  Let alone Passover or Yom Kippur.

We have 2 different events... whatever was going on down there, and the ripple effect of his name after 10/8.

Looking carefully at 10/8 thru 11/22.  What is the ripple effect and who is it most affecting?

Why does the FBI produce a mountain of conflicting paper to hide the fact they knew he wasn't there?
Why, when they learn one avenue of travel was not possible, they simply drop it for the next logical one?

This report for example tells the FBI that the manner in which they claimed he returned, would not have gotten him to where he needed to be when he was actually there.  So they changed the journey to what was needed... if you read these chapters - which I admit are heavily laden with detail - it will certainly amaze you what the FBI did to support the CIA claiming he was down there.

https://www.kennedysandking.com/content/mexico-city-part-4-leaving-mexico-part-1 

 

DJ-

I can't prove LHO was a CIA or other intel asset. 

The way he easily returned to the US without even a hint of prosecution leads me to deduce as much. 

His history in New Orleans, evidently housed in Banister's shop....

As you point out, his employment at Jaggers....

His friendship with De Mohrenschildt.  

My deduction is LHO was an asset, and there was thousands of such assets in the US at the time, due to the Cuba situation, exiles, mercenaries, former military operating under civilian cover, and the perceived need to defeat communism by any means necessary. 

I am sure there were assets who were selected because they were mentally unstable, more easily coaxed...but making plausible deniability later easier. "He is a nut, and we would never hire a nut." A nut's story lacks weight. 

My deduction is LHO was inveigled into a false flag op in Dallas. 

Paper records were likely manufactured, and other paper records destroyed.  I suspect LHO may have been ferried into MC, by car, plane, what have you. 

Tennant Bagley told Malcolm Blount that LHO was likely a witting asset. 

The CIA'er Rolf Mowatt-Larssen has posited the JFKA as a CIA rogue op.

Maybe LHO was working for another intel outfit. I don't know. He was Marines, so that is ONI. 

When news of the JFKA broke, there are reports the MC station of the CIA went bananas. 

They seemed to know who he was. 

So it goes. 

[David Josephs]

6 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I can't prove LHO was a CIA or other intel asset.

How does his being CIA, or not, change anything - in your view?

[Benjamin Cole]

10 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

How does his being CIA, or not, change anything - in your view?

I am not sure. 

If LHO was not CIA, and did not report to anyone in CIA, and was not intrigued into any situations by the CIA...then all this talk about Angleton and Bruce Solie, and Helms etc. is off-base. Possibly even suspicions about Dulles.

Some researches have talked about Veciana, and how he was a CIA asset but became a military asset, and you can only be one at a time...

I probably disagree with you on the scope of the JFKA, in terms of participants. 

My guess is the JFKA perps were a very small group of people, who trusted each other from wartime experience. All part of the same organization, a tightly knit group. 

IMHO, for that reason, a small group of Cuban exiles from the BoP makes sense. Like three. 

Were they Army assets or CIA assets? 

Did they have tacit approval from a higher up? I don't know. 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Crane]

12 hours ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

I have a poorly evidenced theory on Mexico City :

Oswald in MX was a David Phillips operation to sheep dip Oswald for purposes unknown.

Phillips did not factor into the plan that Oswald was unpredictable and usable by others. Oswald made a 'mistake' and that mistake was to be drawn in by JFK's assassins.

This separation between Oswald in MX and Oswald in Dallas thus explains the mess created within the intelligence agencies. The MX operation didn't need the level of backup forced upon it by the JFKA. Within the Intelligence Agencies there wasn't a consensus, and hanging together a watertight story became impossible.

I'm going to post what I heard from a researcher....

I'm just the messenger....

Oswald was sent to Mexico City,but not to the embassy.Oswald was sent to Mexico City to deliver a cancer concoction to kill Castro.

For the record...I don't believe that Oswald was at either embassy.

Don't shoot me...I am just the messenger.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Leslie Sharp]

Hoover’s strange note, January 18, 1964:

 

We’re reminded that Mrs. Jane Roman had advised the FBI liaison on March 6, 1964 that her agency furnished  to Hoover’s bureau information in a letter dated July 12, 1963, captioned  “OAS Attempt to Enlist the Cooperation of the United States for its anti-de Gaulle Activities.” 

When was Hoover advised by INS that Dallas agents had expelled French nationals on Nov 22/23? Surely he was apprised prior to January 18. Is that knowledge reflected in his note? Remember that at least one official record — now supported by Lafitte’s own notes — indicates Souetre’s exit was via Mexico. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Sandy Larsen]

On 12/15/2023 at 8:01 AM, David Josephs said:

This is why I see the MX they showed us in the evidence left behind as a complete red herring to the assassination.  That Bill Simpich and others are much closer to the non-assassination related activities exposure than an easily seen planting operation to keep the FBI in line when it was needed.

 

David,

Could you please explain this? Which MC "evidence left behind" do you believe is a red herring? Do you mean the evidence supporting the WC narrative of Oswald in MC?

And what specifically is the "easily seen planting operation" you are referring to?

 

[David Josephs]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

David,

Could you please explain this? Which MC "evidence left behind" do you believe is a red herring? Do you mean the evidence supporting the WC narrative of Oswald in MC?

And what specifically is the "easily seen planting operation" you are referring to?

 

Oswald was - in my understanding - not personally involved with any of the evidence we have related to Mexico City. 
 If indeed Oswald was in Mexico during that time, which I am not discounting anymore, he was elsewhere with none of the activities described in the entirety of the evidence related to Mexico City being real - based on what I know at this point in time of the documented evidence.  

During the course of the time when these tapes were supposed to have been created... Sept 27-Oct 3, those down there working on behalf of the CIA, in order to falsely accuse Oswald, had to know he never did any of the things that surfaced, they had stories to tell and maintain.  If it turns out Oswald was at the Duran Party as a result of his doing something else down there, I'd be very surprised  but again, not so egregious an act and one which adds the tiny bit of truth to a completely false situation... something that occurred repeatedly within false, incriminatory evidence so that a sliver of truth could be pointed to and not refuted.

I'd ask you please to go back up to the top of this page and re-read my post.  I explain myself, I thought, and asked very specific question which I would like to hear your responses to:

1. So I have to ask Ben... what does LHO being an FBI or CIA asset mean to you?  How does it change/enhance the conspiracy to implicate him?  I mean it's one thing to just say he was a CIA asset...  I'm asking "So what"?
2. Looking carefully at 10/8 thru 11/22.  What is the ripple effect and who is it most affecting?
3. Why does the FBI produce a mountain of conflicting paper to hide the fact they knew he wasn't there?
4. Why, when they learn one avenue of travel was not possible, they simply drop it for the next logical one?

I mean you did read thru that report I posted...  the result being "find another that DOES get him there on time".

The "planting operation" I refer to is that portion of whatever was going on down there which necessitated the insertion of false intelligence regarding Oswald for whatever purposes it served to those who employed it - separate and distinct from the implications related to the assassination. 

The activities which are described by the study of CIA/FBI/DFS/and multitudes of different country's intelligence personnel in one of the most highly concentrated centers of spycraft in the world at the time, did not have very much to do with the assassination of JFK. 

The "implication of Oswald to relate to Cuba/Russia" was only a Phase 1 activity related to the assassination... but as I see it, this was not nearly the most important of the reasons Lee Henry Oswald was introduced into Mexico at that exact time.   I believe one have to read deep into the work of Bill Simpich with the flavoring of Scott, Newman and so many others and then reread them with new and different eyes and perspectives before one can state with any confidence they have an understanding of what was happening.

Mexico City, like Oswald himself, is an enigma... as I see it.  I feel strongly what appears connected, is not.  Which is why I find Mexico a much harder puzzle for which to find the right pieces to construct an accurate image.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Oswald was - in my understanding - not personally involved with any of the evidence we have related to Mexico City. 
 If indeed Oswald was in Mexico during that time, which I am not discounting anymore, he was elsewhere with none of the activities described in the entirety of the evidence related to Mexico City being real - based on what I know at this point in time of the documented evidence.  

During the course of the time when these tapes were supposed to have been created... Sept 27-Oct 3, those down there working on behalf of the CIA, in order to falsely accuse Oswald, had to know he never did any of the things that surfaced, they had stories to tell and maintain.  If it turns out Oswald was at the Duran Party as a result of his doing something else down there, I'd be very surprised  but again, not so egregious an act and one which adds the tiny bit of truth to a completely false situation... something that occurred repeatedly within false, incriminatory evidence so that a sliver of truth could be pointed to and not refuted.

I'd ask you please to go back up to the top of this page and re-read my post.  I explain myself, I thought, and asked very specific question which I would like to hear your responses to:

1. So I have to ask Ben... what does LHO being an FBI or CIA asset mean to you?  How does it change/enhance the conspiracy to implicate him?  I mean it's one thing to just say he was a CIA asset...  I'm asking "So what"?
2. Looking carefully at 10/8 thru 11/22.  What is the ripple effect and who is it most affecting?
3. Why does the FBI produce a mountain of conflicting paper to hide the fact they knew he wasn't there?
4. Why, when they learn one avenue of travel was not possible, they simply drop it for the next logical one?

I mean you did read thru that report I posted...  the result being "find another that DOES get him there on time".

The "planting operation" I refer to is that portion of whatever was going on down there which necessitated the insertion of false intelligence regarding Oswald for whatever purposes it served to those who employed it - separate and distinct from the implications related to the assassination. 

The activities which are described by the study of CIA/FBI/DFS/and multitudes of different country's intelligence personnel in one of the most highly concentrated centers of spycraft in the world at the time, did not have very much to do with the assassination of JFK. 

The "implication of Oswald to relate to Cuba/Russia" was only a Phase 1 activity related to the assassination... but as I see it, this was not nearly the most important of the reasons Lee Henry Oswald was introduced into Mexico at that exact time.   I believe one have to read deep into the work of Bill Simpich with the flavoring of Scott, Newman and so many others and then reread them with new and different eyes and perspectives before one can state with any confidence they have an understanding of what was happening.

Mexico City, like Oswald himself, is an enigma... as I see it.  I feel strongly what appears connected, is not.  Which is why I find Mexico a much harder puzzle for which to find the right pieces to construct an accurate image.

 

Thanks David. I think I understand your position now.

 

[Michael Kalin]

12 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Oswald was - in my understanding - not personally involved with any of the evidence we have related to Mexico City. 
 If indeed Oswald was in Mexico during that time, which I am not discounting anymore, he was elsewhere with none of the activities described in the entirety of the evidence related to Mexico City being real - based on what I know at this point in time of the documented evidence.

Interesting -- can you elaborate -- why are you "not discounting anymore" that Oswald "was in Mexico during that time?"

Edited December 20, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Benjamin Cole]

32 minutes ago, Michael Kalin said:

Interesting -- can you elaborate -- why are you "not discounting anymore" that Oswald "was in Mexico during that time?"

I agree. 

I realize it was difficult in 1964 to ascertain LHO's movements in MC, let alone today. 

But was the fake paperwork on LHO generated to obscure his true locations and modes of transport? 

That is, to reveal LHO true locations in MC would have also revealed US intel ops and locations, and safe houses? 

Of course, it would have also revealed that LHO was a US intel asset. 

Also, did Valery Kostikov use a pseudonym while working in Russian Embassy? Might he have used that pseudonym when he met with LHO?