LHO was in Mexico City

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I cannot allow misinformation to flourish.

One of the most unintentionally hilarious statements ever made on this forum, especially since it comes from someone who believes in evidence fakery to a preposterous level as the ludicrous "Harvey and Lee" doppelganger theory. You're the one pushing long-debunked misinformation.

[Paul Brancato]

Why has Ben made three threads out of one story?

Elena Garro paid a heavy price for the story she told, and she stuck by it. I think it shouldn’t be lumped in with the other sightings, and we should consider what Pat Speer said here not too many months ago - that like Ben said LHO could both be in MC and be impersonated there, by phone or in person, but unlike Ben that LHO might have been off on his own doing none of the things we are told he did. We could also keep in mind that once we accept that possibility there is no particular reason it has to be on those exact dates at the end of September. 
Can you imagine an armed LHO entering the Russian Embassy in MC and having to be talked down? Ridiculous on its face. Why the Russians made up this fiction and PBS aired it I don’t know, but Ben, come on man. 

[James DiEugenio]

Bill Kelly discredited Elena Garo.

Betsy Wolf found out that Angleton had Elena and Duran pirated off the day of the assassination to two different locales.

I agree why three different threads on this?

[Kirk Gallaway]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Look, we have been through all this when David Josephs was here.

Yes, we've been through this! I shouldn't have to even talk about this! Declares Jim! The Frontline program is  also a sham!

Jim has taken care of all guesswork for his followers about this, so over time, the result is we have to overcome the inertia of people blindly accepting anything he says.

And right now the message is forum hegemony that Oswald was not in Mexico City!

heh heh

********

 

2 hours ago, Mart Hall said:

Given the places he was alleged to have visited I would expect there to be incontrovertible evidence provided either to the WC or released years later if Oswald was actually in Mexico. 

There’s none of that. But the poor attempts to place Oswald there speak for themselves. 

Well not exactly Mart. Start at  1:44:38 of the clip below. The poor attempts are acknowledged here.  But there are several witnesses to Oswald in MXC. 2 Australian women on the bus to MXC. Duran, the 3 Russians at the embassy. 

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Why did somebody impersonate Oswald on the phone? (EVERY phone call he supposedly made was an impersonator. Not according to me, but according to the FBI. And the FBI desperately wanted to prove Oswald was there!)

Yes, we have the best of both worlds here. We can quote the FBI or CIA whenever it suits our purpose and ignore the testimony of several people here starting at 1:44:38 who say they saw LHO in MXC, because they were obviously complicit or paid off! Right Sandy?

One thing that's occurred over and over is there's no economy practiced here. No one employs  KISS here, (keep it simple stupid?) But lazily chooses to cast an ever widening net of conspirators. And  for every flaw or inconsistency in their argument., more conspirators become necessary. The more, the merrier, ho ho ho!

All witnesses to Oswald in this clip were obviously paid off, right? 

Similarly , no one employs "Occam's razor" here which is ” The principle gives precedence to simplicity: of two competing theories, the simpler explanation of an entity is to be preferred. The principle is also expressed as “Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity.”  I've seen this recently on the LBJ tab. That's not to say that people who believe that LBJ was involved in the planning are wrong. It's just the degree of planning that has been put forth and the shear number of people involved. I suppose no one  who  always seems to end up with greater and greater conspiracies has ever had the practical life experience that people just can't keep secrets very long! And because of this lack of everyday experience, we become so sloppy in our thinking. That it's now 60 years  and counting!

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Why has Ben made three threads out of one story?

Elena Garro paid a heavy price for the story she told, and she stuck by it. I think it shouldn’t be lumped in with the other sightings, and we should consider what Pat Speer said here not too many months ago - that like Ben said LHO could both be in MC and be impersonated there, by phone or in person, but unlike Ben that LHO might have been off on his own doing none of the things we are told he did. We could also keep in mind that once we accept that possibility there is no particular reason it has to be on those exact dates at the end of September. 
Can you imagine an armed LHO entering the Russian Embassy in MC and having to be talked down? Ridiculous on its face. Why the Russians made up this fiction and PBS aired it I don’t know, but Ben, come on man. 

Paul--

I guess we have different points of view on this one, and that's fine, this is a forum. 

IMHO, for whatever reason, LHO either feigned anxiety or was truly distraught in the Russian Embassy. 

It may be LHO wanted to create scene, possibly requiring him being turned over to the city police, and thus a record being made of LHO's visit there.

LHO's MC visit is documented in contemporary Russian and US cables and memos, and he is seen in MC by multiple witnesses. 

Was the whole thing faked? Docs faked? The KGB trio paid to lie? Maybe so. 

Some say the KGB also impersonated LHO in MC at that time. 

So...that would mean the KGB just happened to be impersonating LHO, of all people, in MC at the same he wasn't actually there? But the CIA had ginned up a fake story he was there? Quite a coincidence. 

I posted three threads as I hoped  discrete bits of information would be dealt with separately. But, this is a forum and people hop in any way they like. Which is also as it should be. 

As I said, at this late date proving LHO was, or was not in MC in Sept-Oct 1963, beyond reasonable doubt, might be impossible. 

[Ron Bulman]

Tap dancing.  Why three threads again?

 

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Bill Kelly discredited Elena Garo.

Betsy Wolf found out that Angleton had Elena and Duran pirated off the day of the assassination to two different locales.

I agree why three different threads on this?

Jim - I’d like to read this. Where can I find it? 

[Benjamin Cole]

14 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Tap dancing.  Why three threads again?

 

My explanation was sincere: I wanted discrete topics to be addressed, rather than a free-for-all. A free-for-all ensued. So it goes. 

[Ron Bulman]

18 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Tap dancing.  Why three threads again?

 

Of course, this song title made me think of this song.  This version of which I've never seen before myself.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

[deleted]

[James DiEugenio]

Paul:

This is from Vasilio Vazakis' six part study of Oswald, Chapter four on Angleton.

Let us close out this section with other compelling discoveries made by Wolf. She discovered that, in preparation for the Warren Commission looking at CIA documents on Oswald, there were 37 of them missing. A key attachment to this document was gone and there was no index as to which documents were missing. Neither was there any indication as to where they were or when they would be replaced. (Wolf notes of 4/5/78) From November of 1959 to February of 1964, Oswald’s file contained a grand total of 771 documents, 167 originated with CIA. (ibid) By 1978, the Oswald file contained 150 folders and envelopes.

The first fact exposes the lie David Belin of the Warren Commission once said on Nightline, namely that he had seen every CIA file on Oswald. The second one belies the claim that CIA Director Robert Gates once said, namely that there was little interest in Oswald by the CIA.

Somehow, some way, Wolf had access to a chronology set up by Ray Rocca. Rocca was Angleton’s right hand man at CI. In that chronology are two fascinating insights into Angleton and Mexico City. The first is that Rocca had cabled Luis Echeverria on November 23^rd concerning the relationship between Oswald and Sylvia Duran, the receptionist at the Cuban consulate. This is important because, as David Josephs has revealed, Secretary of Interior Echeverria would eventually take over the investigation of Oswald in Mexico City; leaving the FBI and Warren Commission out in the cold. What makes this important is that this was before Helms had assigned Angleton his liaison duties with the Commission. Secondly, the day after the assassination, a CIA agent escorted Elena Garro de Paz to the Vermont Hotel. In other words, within 24 hours, Angleton and Rocca are controlling Duran, a prime witness to Oswald not being in Mexico City, and Elena Garro, a witness who would eventually say that Oswald was having an affair with Duran.

[Sandy Larsen]

15 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Jim - I’d like to read this. Where can I find it? 

 

If you'd like to see some source material for Elena Garro being taken to Hotel Vermont, you can read about it in the Lopez Report. It's pretty interesting reading.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/lopezrpt/pdf/LopezRpt_6_Information.pdf

Search for "Vermont" in the document.

Garro said that Manuel Calvillo took her to the hotel. I take it he was a CIA asset. I haven't studied this myself, I'm just aware of it.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

18 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

21 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Why did somebody impersonate Oswald on the phone? (EVERY phone call he supposedly made was an impersonator. Not according to me, but according to the FBI. And the FBI desperately wanted to prove Oswald was there!)

18 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Yes, we have the best of both worlds here. We can quote the FBI or CIA whenever it suits our purpose and ignore the testimony of several people here starting at 1:44:38 who say they saw LHO in MXC, because they were obviously complicit or paid off! Right Sandy?

 

You apparently don't have the aptitude for this sort of thing, Kirk.

I don't just willy-nilly decide which of the CIA's and FBI's reports and statements are fabrications. I question the ones that either contradict each other, or contradict the evidence. And then I make a hypotheses that removes the contradictions.

Until someone discovers a flaw in my hypothesis, it is considered to be valid. That is the way the scientific method works.

I notice that you rarely, if ever, put forth a hypothesis. That's probably a good thing.

heh heh

 

[Charles Blackmon]

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Of course, this song title made me think of this song.  This version of which I've never seen before myself.

 

I believe that is the only Stones hit record that Keith sang lead on. Good rocker!

[Eddy Bainbridge]

I am not well read on Mexico City, but I feel the focus on whether Oswald was or was not there to be unfruitful. I am convinced he didn't go by bus, because the alleged bus trip doesn't match with the actual buses (See David Joseph's work). If he didn't go by bus but David Philips coordinated a story that he did, then this is very significant. 

I am convinced he was impersonated in MC. David Phillips, I understand, is a likely candidate for coordinating the impersonation. Very significant if true. 

It is the use of Oswald in MC that interests me, not his presence. Evidence of his presence is undoubtedly mixed with false evidence. Is anyone doubting he was put to some use by intelligence in MC?