LHO was in Mexico City

[Benjamin Cole]

52 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

The CE573 bullet was positively IDed in June '64 by the officer who first found it at Walker's house. Why isn't this good enough for CTers?....

"On June 12, 1964, Exhibit C148 [aka CE573], a mutilated rifle slug, was shown to Billy Gene Norvell, former Dallas police officer, 1603 Darr Street, Apartment 147, Irving, Texas, by Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum, Federal Bureau of Investigation. He identified this exhibit as the same one which he had found at the residence of Major General Edwin A. Walker, Dallas, Texas, on April 10, 1963, and identified his marking on this slug." -- CE2011 <---CLICK

Plus....let me add this....

The fact that CE573 (the "Walker bullet") cannot be linked to any specific rifle is virtual proof, right there, that it was not "planted" into the evidence pile. Because only a total idiot would want to do something so stupid. Although, yes, CE573 looks exactly like CE399 in many respects. No doubt about it. But if you're going to go to the trouble of PLANTING a bullet to frame a particular person, you're surely going to make sure that that bullet can be tied exclusively to the patsy's gun. Wouldn't you agree?

 

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/12/edwin-walker-and-lee-harvey-oswald.html

 

DVP--

You know, in the FBI reports, there is contradictory reports whether it was Norvell, or McElroy, who found the Walker bullet. 

Norvell was a patrolman who left the DPD, after less than a year of service. 

McElroy was a 13-year veteran of the DPD, promoted through civil service exams, who signed a police report that he found a steel-jacketed bullet in the Walker home on April 10. 

Norvell also filed a contemporary DPD report that he, Norvell, found or saw a "steel jacketed" bullet at the Walker home. (It is not clear if Norvell ever actually handled the Walker slug, since McElroy told the FBI that he, McElroy, found the slug). 

The FBI never asked McElroy, or the other DPD detective (name eludes me), if CE 573 was the true Walker bullet, and they were never asked by the WC either. The FBI-WC only asked Norvell (the police novice who changed careers quickly) if CE573 was the true Walker bullet. 

When Lt. Day was asked by the WC if CE 573 was the true Walker bullet, he examined his paperwork and answered the true Walker bullet had his name "Day" and a cross on the slug. Those identifying marks  are not evident on the Walker bullet, when microscopically examined by the HSCA. 

I have looked through this case rather carefully, and learned there were steel-jacketed 30-06 bullets on the market at the time, military surplus. Steel-jacketed bullets, as a fraction of the total bullet market, were and are a rarity. 

For two DPD detectives to ID a slug (prime physical evidence), found at the scene of the highest-profile assassination attempt in Dallas history to that time (April 1963), as "steel jacketed"---knowing that their work would be reviewed by superiors, the DPD lab, and media---seems like along shot. 

General Walker was then a national political figure on the cover of Newsweek magazine (TIME too maybe, I forget). Back when a such a cover was a big deal. 

Surviving paperwork from the DPD lab does correct or alter the detective's definition of the Walker bullet as "steel jacketed."  How is that possible? Even the DPD lab accepted the Walker bullet was "steel jacketed." 

I lean to the view that the Walker slug found on April 10 as being "steel jacketed," as correct police reporting. 

Try for a civil, collegial tone in your comments. 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

LHO did not make the trip, nor was in of the locations, nor on any of the tapes, offered up as evidence.

Alvarado was a DAP asset telling a lie starting 3 days after the fact.

If there was a photo of Oswald - our Oswald - in MX on those dates, do you really believe THAT would be withheld when the entire point was to prove he was there?

The FBI's own reports proved he was not "there" nor traveled to or from.

AZCUE, DURAN, LITAMIL/7 & 9 all state on record the man was not there.  THERE (if he was at the LUNA with Davis, prove it)

The hotel registry was provided by OCHOA as was the FM-8 and summary reports putting OH LEE in the "O" slot alphabetically

@Benjamin Cole   Sum up the #1 item of evidence in support of that conclusion please...  what do you have that proves he was there - and THERE meaning that hotel and those embassy/consulates.

What say you about this my friend?  why would they need to "fudge" actual incriminating phone calls?  maybe kinda why they needed to FUDGE the ZFILM.   

Y'know... I realize that my articles on this bogus trip is long, detailed and has a ridiculous # of documents which are then cross-referenced with documents trying to reinforce Oswald being there.

Members of the Gobernacion who are used to testify they were on this or that bus with these or those people going from here to there...  

So maybe you produce the evidence which actually puts the man there, or admit you've made a terrible mistake and the actual mountain of evidence proving the CIA "fudged" the entire thing is real.

NOW - did they fudge it becasue he was actually flown in and out and had a meeting at the LUNA, OR is this a paper trail as the CIA had done 100's of times in order to keep a lid on Hoover?

Up to you.  You want to hang your hat on 3 KGB men...    I think you're being played as a fool and then doubling down here on the forum with people who know better.

 

Not "Oswald wasn't there" but instead Hoover says "there is a second person" since OSWALD was in DALLAS working for the FBI

 

ANAHUAC?  what happened to Del Norte and the original Flecha Rojas?

 

THAT day at the consulate in New Orleans

ACTUAL FM-11 monthly recap:

 

The infamous bogus bus ticket found in a suitcase a month before publishing.  Ticket proven to have never been issued or used.

LITAMIL/9 - one of the most effective double agents we had - a close friend of AZCUE

 

Doesn't matter if it was closed, he was there.

 

FBI master list of reports with 5 that are undated and without description - and the 5 reports they refer to below

 

 

 

 

 

DJ-

I admire your work.

I believe LHO was impersonated in MC, as well as being there.

Sheesh, LHO was shadowed by likely three intel agencies (US, Russian and Cuban) and impersonated by one or two (US Russian). 

The CIA ginned up lots of phony paperwork to enhance the LHO legend, and to confuse matters, plant false leads and so on---maybe even to induce doubt LHO was ever there----on a CIA op. They likely destroyed a lot of records too. The CIA wants the LHO MC trip to be murky as possible. 

Indeed---as a counter-intel op, the Russians themselves may have phoned the Russian embassy and faked an LHO phone call, to see if there was a mole inside the Russian embassy. Counter-intel ops are a real thing. Or the CIA may have faked the call too. 

It appears that contemporary Russian, Cuban and CIA memos all refer to LHO's visit to MC. 

I confess, I find the three KGB officers, filmed and recored, to be compelling. No one has disputed they are who they say they are. In other words, they are not cranks off the street. 

No one has provided any evidence the trio were bribed, or threatened. 

In court, their testimony would be evidence, and not hearsay evidence like you find in Congressional hearing of WC report. 

Maybe the three KGB'ers were lying. 

So it goes. 

[David Von Pein]

23 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You know, in the FBI reports, there is contradictory reports whether it was Norvell, or McElroy, who found the Walker bullet. 

CE2011 tells us that Norvell "identified his marking on this slug"  [CE573 / aka C148].

So, do you think that TWO bullets were fired into Walker's house on 4/10/63?

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by David Von Pein

[David Josephs]

4 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

It appears that contemporary Russian, Cuban and CIA memos all refer to LHO's visit to MC.

So wouldn't one expect to hear within the ongoing tapping programs these same Russians and Cubans making some mention of this American coming after hours and somehow getting into the compound?  Or making the ruckus he did in front of AZCUE and DURAN?

Contemporary reporting DENIES he made these calls

One tact I took was believing that there may have been contemporaneous reporting of OSWALD in MX without the CIA really being aware of what they were doing.  If the CIA wanted him in MX Sept 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th and had picked up his voice/name in their LIENVOY operation, would that not have given even more credibility to his being there?

At bottom right is a summary report excerpt showing the kind of response an ENGLISH SPEAKING PERSON would have received within LIENVOY.

Can you offer any explanation for why his exaggerated presence was not mentioned anywhere until the day after Phillips arrives?

Look at your sources again Ben:  Russian, Cuban and CIA memos

One has to wonder why these groups would toe the company line and insist he really was there and not traveling with Cubans in the US and speaking to a woman whose family was connected to JURE?

There's naive and there's head in the sand ostrich junk.  The Russian memos only talk about confirming what is said, not contradicting.  We can talk about the Cubans another time if you like. 

Why is it you don't accept the FBI's search coming up empty during all of November as more reliable than the Russian KGB?  Or Hoover literally spelling it out in his own hand in Jan 1964?

 

 

[David Josephs]

@Benjamin Cole

Appreciate the admiration Ben...  yet what's the point of your softly backhanded compliment?

What have I provided that you don't see reducing these three KGB to what they always were... Disinformation specialists?

What of all the things I've offered adds strength to his actually being there?

Do you claim LITAMIL/9 is lying?  a CIA double agent who only need say he saw him there in passing to add validity?

I don't really care if you want to put yourself on that island, surrounded by water and sharks... have at it.  You are more than entitled to have whatever opinion suits you.

I for one would trade some admiration for comprehension

[Benjamin Cole]

16 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

CE2011 tells us that Norvell "identified his marking on this slug"  [CE573 / aka C148].

So, do you think that TWO bullets were fired into Walker's house on 4/10/63?

 

Yes, Norvell ID'ed a slug shown to him by an FBI agent, as the Walker bullet.

Norvell may have in fact been shown the true Walker bullet. His marking was a "B" or "BN," he said. It appears Norvell was not sure, even after being shown a slug by the FBI. 

Norvell also signed a contemporary DPD report that the true Walker bullet was a "steel jacketed" bullet, as did two detectives, and another patrolman. 

The DPD lab never corrected the description of the Walker bullet. 

I would say I trust the contemporary evidence (April 10, 1963), attested to in written typed statements by four DPD officers, including the two detectives and the DPD lab---all stating or accepting the Walker bullet as "steel jacketed."

So it goes. 

[Benjamin Cole]

3 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

@Benjamin Cole

Appreciate the admiration Ben...  yet what's the point of your softly backhanded compliment?

What have I provided that you don't see reducing these three KGB to what they always were... Disinformation specialists?

What of all the things I've offered adds strength to his actually being there?

Do you claim LITAMIL/9 is lying?  a CIA double agent who only need say he saw him there in passing to add validity?

I don't really care if you want to put yourself on that island, surrounded by water and sharks... have at it.  You are more than entitled to have whatever opinion suits you.

I for one would trade some admiration for comprehension

DJ-

OK, but riddle me this:

If the CIA had memos, detailing LHO as an asset on a CIA op in MC---what do you think would happen to such documents? 

 

[David Josephs]

2 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DJ-

OK, but riddle me this:

If the CIA had memos, detailing LHO as an asset on a CIA op in MC---what do you think would happen to such documents? 

 

If my grandmother had balls, would she be my grandfather?

Ben, we have mountains of evidence.  None of which state Oswald was CIA in any capacity, anywhere.

What do you think they are doing in the memo below, Ben?  ODESSA was only part of the 9/27 morning calls with Helms virtually removing it from circulation to focus on the calls of the 28th and 1st.

At what point in the transcripts of calls is there mention of his HIJACKING AN AIRPLANE TO CUBA?

The OP here Ben was to corner the FBI, Hoover, into having to support Oswald in MX since he was working with the FBI with Cubans at the exact same time.  Well, that may not have been THE Op, but a side benefit of whatever it was they were doing down there.

AZCUE and DURAN specifically state it was not him.  Grandma's balls?

I have documents describing the creation and planting of call transcripts within LIENVOY to implicate one thing or another to get certain people to do as they're told.  EH HUNT was an expert at this.

What are you really after here Ben as I'm a bit perplexed that all of this (and much much more) is TRUMPED by 3 KGB officers saying he was there years after the fact.

 

 

[Leslie Sharp]

@David Josephs great to see you back in this saddle. 
 

Aside from, or maybe in addition to the decades long debate about MC, how do these 3 KGB guys fit in with the 1998 documentary, The KGB JFK  Assassination Files which preceded a companion book,The Triangle of Death by one of the co- producers of the documentary Brad O’Leary by several years?  It may seem I’m diverting from the topic of this thread, but bear with me.
 

Roger Moore narrated the documentary filmed a good deal on location in Russia. Apparently the director/producers had been granted exclusive access to Soviet experts and their intel files from their own investigation into K’s assassination.  No doubt both film and book are controversial, although I note that in the past, Larry Hancock has cited O’Leary — who hired a French speaking reporter to track down Souetre for an extended interview — as a source for having established once and for all, Jean Rene Soutre was anywhere but Dallas on November 22.

Are you familiar with the Soviet’s investigation? Did these 3 MC KGB guys surface? (I confess I haven’t watched the documentary in full, but will soon because the director and one producer (O’Leary)  are named in the NY AG lawsuit targeting the NRA.)

[Benjamin Cole]

DJ-

I have different interpretations on some materials. 

But hey...perhaps I am merely a benighted soul, floundering in a sea of mis-, dis- and mal-information. 

I do suspect contend LHO was likely a CIA asset, or at least of some other intel agency working with the CIA. 

Carry on. As I always say, if you put three JFKA researchers into a room you will get five firmly held opinions, three of which are contradictory. 

I think highly of your research. 

 

 

[Leslie Sharp]

17 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Leslie,

No, I didn't mean anything I said to be facetious. My response to you was shorter than what you deserved only because I had forgotten about the Mary Haverstick thread and book when I wrote what I did about June Cobb. I just went back to that thread and got caught up on it, and so I now see that you informed us about the Win Scott memo.

I'm sure you know more about June Cobb than I do. My area  of interest is on Elena Garro and her story about Oswald and his pals fraternizing with Silvia Duran and friends at her house. You see, her story corroborates parts of the story of Gilberto Alvarado, who claimed that Oswald was paid a $6500 ($5000 + $1500 for expenses) advance while in the Cuban Consulate, to assassinate someone.

In addition, there was another story reported by someone else that Oswald came back to the States with $5000. So this is also corroborative.

Then, of course, there is the Oswald phone call that makes it sound like Oswald had just met with KGB assassinations chief Valeriy Kostikov.

All of these stories are now regarded as fake by most researchers. But when they are all considered together, it becomes clear -- to some of us -- that the CIA assassination plotters were behind all these false stories, their purpose being to make it look like Oswald was in cahoots with Cuba and Russia over the assassination. That they were paying Oswald to get it done.

This, of course, would create a pretext for war. Perhaps an invasion of Cuba.

Now, having said all that, I must mention that it appears that there is no documentation available to indicate that Garro's story came out early, shortly after the assassination. June Cobb's corroboration of Elena's story isn't even mentioned till 1965. Way too late for them to be of any use in the plot.

However, we do know that Garro was in Mexican Police custody shortly after the assassination, as were Silvia Duran and a number of people at the party she was having at the time of her arrest. There is apparently strong indication that Garro told her story right after the assassination and that is the reason she was taken into custody. And is the reason Silvia Duran and her guest were arrested and interrogated.

So I do believe the Garro story came out early, and that we just haven't documentation for that. June Cobb's corroborative story probably also came out early, but documentation for it was also scrubbed.

I apologize if you are already aware of all this. I mention it because, due to a fairly new thread of mine, I have discovered that our theory isn't as widely accepted, or even understood, as I had thought it was. As far as I can tell, the only researchers who believe it are Jim DiEugenio, Peter Dale Scott, David Josephs, Cliff Varnell, and myself.

Which is rather depressing.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to walk through this with a very plausible argument. 
 

Charles William Thomas’ letter to Sec. State William P. Rogers dated July 25, 1969 may have been effectively debunked by now, but at the time he felt compelled to inform the Secretary that “public disclosure” of Oswald’s presence at the Mexico party “could reopen the debate about the true nature of the Kennedy assassination and damage the credibility of the Warren Report.”  Based on this concern, Thomas informed Rogers that since he had been embassy officer in Mexico “who acquired this intelligence information, I feel responsibility for seeing it through to its final evaluation.” 

His informant was also his friend, Elena Garro. He filed his first report detailing Garro’s account of the party on December 10, 1965. 

Several months after Thomas’ memos to Sec. Rogers, FBI top Soviet expert W. A. Branigan memoed Wm. Sullivan that State had furnished the Bureau a letter and accompanying documents received from a “recently retired” employee.

By April 1971, Thomas was dead at age 45, allegedly from a self-inflicted gunshot.

State and FBI couldn’t still be concerned, in 1969, that the legend of Oswald in Mexico City could trigger a war with the Soviets, right?

[Sandy Larsen]

7 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

So, yeah, both the Cubans AND the Russians claimed the real Oswald was in Mexico City.

 

Not so. Cuban Intelligence said that the "Oswald" at the Cuban Consulate was a CIA asset posing as Oswald.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=55413#relPageId=29

 

Sure, they all thought the imposter was Oswald at first, because the guy said he was Oswald. But they later determine the guy wasn't Oswald. Even J. Edgar Hoover said it wasn't Oswald.

 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Not so. Cuban Intelligence said that the "Oswald" at the Cuban Consulate was a CIA asset posing as Oswald.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=55413#relPageId=29

 

Sure, they all thought the imposter was Oswald at first, because the guy said he was Oswald. But they later determine the guy wasn't Oswald. Even J. Edgar Hoover said it wasn't Oswald.

 

Read ZR Rifle. it's a book written by Cuban intelligence. The book even has an ID photo that Oswald showed the Cuban consulate, which they photocopied to add to his paperwork. It's the real Oswald.

The man in the CIA's photos was, of course, not Oswald. And it's not Oswald on the tapes that were transcribed. either.  The CIA's never come clean on this, but we've reason to believe the CIA imitated people of whom they'd received human intelligence in order to make it look like the information they'd received had come from a wiretap. Someone tells the CIA hey some guy was at the embassy trying to get to Cuba, and he met with Kostikov. And the CIA is like hey how do we put this in the files without letting on that this person told us this. I know, we'll have someone imitate this guy and have him contact the embassy and share all this info on a tapped line. 

Now, here's the real brain-buster. Suppose the person telling the CIA of Oswald's visit, whose name could not be put in the files, was Oswald HIMSELF...

 

 

[Leslie Sharp]

6 hours ago, David Josephs said:

So wouldn't one expect to hear within the ongoing tapping programs these same Russians and Cubans making some mention of this American coming after hours and somehow getting into the compound?  Or making the ruckus he did in front of AZCUE and DURAN?

Contemporary reporting DENIES he made these calls

One tact I took was believing that there may have been contemporaneous reporting of OSWALD in MX without the CIA really being aware of what they were doing.  If the CIA wanted him in MX Sept 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th and had picked up his voice/name in their LIENVOY operation, would that not have given even more credibility to his being there?

At bottom right is a summary report excerpt showing the kind of response an ENGLISH SPEAKING PERSON would have received within LIENVOY.

Can you offer any explanation for why his exaggerated presence was not mentioned anywhere until the day after Phillips arrives?

Look at your sources again Ben:  Russian, Cuban and CIA memos

One has to wonder why these groups would toe the company line and insist he really was there and not traveling with Cubans in the US and speaking to a woman whose family was connected to JURE?

There's naive and there's head in the sand ostrich junk.  The Russian memos only talk about confirming what is said, not contradicting.  We can talk about the Cubans another time if you like. 

Why is it you don't accept the FBI's search coming up empty during all of November as more reliable than the Russian KGB?  Or Hoover literally spelling it out in his own hand in Jan 1964?

 

 

David, which “French espionage activities in USA” do you think Hoover is referring to?  

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Read ZR Rifle. it's a book written by Cuban intelligence. The book even has an ID photo that Oswald showed the Cuban consulate, which they photocopied to add to his paperwork. It's the real Oswald.

The man in the CIA's photos was, of course, not Oswald. And it's not Oswald on the tapes that were transcribed. either.  The CIA's never come clean on this, but we've reason to believe the CIA imitated people of whom they'd received human intelligence in order to make it look like the information they'd received had come from a wiretap. Someone tells the CIA hey some guy was at the embassy trying to get to Cuba, and he met with Kostikov. And the CIA is like hey how do we put this in the files without letting on that this person told us this. I know, we'll have someone imitate this guy and have him contact the embassy and share all this info on a tapped line. 

Now, here's the real brain-buster. Suppose the person telling the CIA of Oswald's visit, whose name could not be put in the files, was Oswald HIMSELF...

 

 

You mention some interesting ideas. 

And also, keep in mind if there were CIA or other memos that ID'ed LHO as an asset, they likely disappeared. 

A wilderness of mirrors indeed. I would call it a wilderness of smoke and mirrors, on a foggy night.