LHO was in Mexico City

[David Josephs]

11 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:

Interesting -- can you elaborate -- why are you "not discounting anymore" that Oswald "was in Mexico during that time?"

@Benjamin Cole

From Sept 27th until the YMCA on Oct 3rd/4th, and understanding that Oswald was not in Mexico as described by the investigation, we don't really know where he was, exactly.  As there is no evidence other than the obvious that places him in/around Dallas during that week.

If he was flown in and out of Mexico to have a meeting at the Luna Hotel about 20 mins south of the Embassies area; And is only in MX for a day or at most overnight for this meeting and actually does attend the Rave party... and is returned to Dallas by the 1st...  there is no evidence in the bogus MX journey/stay in MX - or any evidence from Dallas that precludes this from occurring. 

The CiD notebook's suggestion of this meet and the substantiation from those in the Cobb/Davis extended circle, again, does not contradict the conclusions about the travel and call evidence I arrived at in my research, so I think it prudent to no longer discount the possibility... but not without this big concern:

 Why have the meeting at all, why in MX when these key players were all together in New Orleans not long before this time.  What is so meaningful or significant of THIS meeting at THAT time... and what actions result from said meeting.  If he's already being flown in.. wouldn't a photo of him have been important to help the incrimination?

If you can create bogus calls and transcripts, why can't you put a photo of him in MX into the mix and solidify your position against him to back the phone calls?

But that didn't happen.  He wasn't PROVEN to be in MX at all... and the long redacted and suppressed LITAMIL/9 reports - when finally released and to my satisfaction - supported the notion he was not there.

 

 

[David Josephs]

11 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Also, did Valery Kostikov use a pseudonym while working in Russian Embassy? Might he have used that pseudonym when he met with LHO?

No Ben, he did not.

Simply read that specific transcript again Ben.  The person on the Russian side of call is the one who introduces KOSTIKOV into the conversation. The Oswald character responds "Yes" to a different question than related to Kostikov.

Also interesting is the huge number of "cc's" for that memo mentioning Kostikov; one of which going to I&NS and an asset of HOSTY's... Jeff Woosley....  this dissemination of info in this manner, I see, as part of the project related to what Simpich is talking about.  The Marked HENRY card and where it that info flows.

Below is an image of LEONOV (Ivanov is actually crossed out).  I don't believe at all that he was used by or mistaken by anyone in US intelligence and was always known for who he was.

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

51 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

No Ben, he did not.

Simply read that specific transcript again Ben.  The person on the Russian side of call is the one who introduces KOSTIKOV into the conversation. The Oswald character responds "Yes" to a different question than related to Kostikov.

Also interesting is the huge number of "cc's" for that memo mentioning Kostikov; one of which going to I&NS and an asset of HOSTY's... Jeff Woosley....  this dissemination of info in this manner, I see, as part of the project related to what Simpich is talking about.  The Marked HENRY card and where it that info flows.

Below is an image of LEONOV (Ivanov is actually crossed out).  I don't believe at all that he was used by or mistaken by anyone in US intelligence and was always known for who he was.

 

 

Oleg M. Nechiporenko write book. I guess another version of the LHO was in the Russian Embassy. 

[David Josephs]

7 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Oleg M. Nechiporenko write book. I guess another version of the LHO was in the Russian Embassy. 

Or, unbelievable as it may seem, he lied to stay on the right side of history.

[David Josephs]

7 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Oleg M. Nechiporenko write book. I guess another version of the LHO was in the Russian Embassy. 

As a reminder, we discussed the one document from Clinton from Russia that says they are to reaffirm what the press had been asserting... and that afterwards he no longer contacted the Soviet embassy

Ben, if he actually contacted them/him, this occurs not only on Friday the 27th, but Saturday the 28th, and Tuesday the 1st of October.  "no longer contacted..."

Does that change anything about the strength of their validity?

MEXICO TO THE SOVIET AMBASSADOR 665.

I agree with you that you should visit the MFA of Mexico (the minister or his deputy) and say, referring to reports in the press, that Oswald requested the consular division of the Soviet embassy in Mexico for a visa to enter the USSR, that the procedure for obtaining entry visas was explained to him at the consular division, and that afterwards he no longer contacted the Soviet embassy

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

As a reminder, we discussed the one document from Clinton from Russia that says they are to reaffirm what the press had been asserting... and that afterwards he no longer contacted the Soviet embassy

Ben, if he actually contacted them/him, this occurs not only on Friday the 27th, but Saturday the 28th, and Tuesday the 1st of October.  "no longer contacted..."

Does that change anything about the strength of their validity?

MEXICO TO THE SOVIET AMBASSADOR 665.

I agree with you that you should visit the MFA of Mexico (the minister or his deputy) and say, referring to reports in the press, that Oswald requested the consular division of the Soviet embassy in Mexico for a visa to enter the USSR, that the procedure for obtaining entry visas was explained to him at the consular division, and that afterwards he no longer contacted the Soviet embassy

 

 

I do not understand the Oct. 18 CIA memo, that IDs Lee Henry (Harvey) Oswald as visiting the Russian Embassy on Sept. 28.

For me, that seems to verify LHO's visit.

It also explains why the CIA Mexico City station went bananas after the JFKA. They knew about LHO, at least in some ways. 

But I am open-minded!

OK, also I am not an expert on document fraud, or the creation of fake paper trails. 

Are you saying the Oct. 18 memo was inaccurate and "faked" in real time, or was created later, to create a false paper trail? 

That is, this Oct. 18 memo, detailing LHO's visit to the Russian Embassy, was created after the JFKA? 

[Leslie Sharp]

18 hours ago, David Josephs said:

No Ben, he did not.

Simply read that specific transcript again Ben.  The person on the Russian side of call is the one who introduces KOSTIKOV into the conversation. The Oswald character responds "Yes" to a different question than related to Kostikov.

Also interesting is the huge number of "cc's" for that memo mentioning Kostikov; one of which going to I&NS and an asset of HOSTY's... Jeff Woosley....  this dissemination of info in this manner, I see, as part of the project related to what Simpich is talking about.  The Marked HENRY card and where it that info flows.

Below is an image of LEONOV (Ivanov is actually crossed out).  I don't believe at all that he was used by or mistaken by anyone in US intelligence and was always known for who he was.

 

 

David, do you know the date Oswald was removed from watch list and who issued it?  

Edited December 22, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But I am open-minded!

 

Jeez Ben, you are NOT open minded.

Not long ago, I noted that most everybody believes that the phone intercept where "Oswald" states he'd left the Soviet Embassy, was made by an Oswald impersonator. And I showed how it is self evident that the report stating Oswald had visited the Soviet Embassy was based solely on the phone call made by the Oswald impersonator. And you still insist that that report is accurate in placing Oswald at the Soviet Embassy.

You are one of the most closed-minded forum members I know.

(So be it.)

 

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Jeez Ben, you are NOT open minded.

Not long ago, I noted that most everybody believes that the phone intercept where "Oswald" states he'd left the Soviet Embassy, was made by an Oswald impersonator. And I showed how it is self evident that the report stating Oswald had visited the Soviet Embassy was based solely on the phone call made by the Oswald impersonator. And you still insist that that report is accurate in placing Oswald at the Soviet Embassy.

You are one of the most closed-minded forum members I know.

(So be it.)

 

But we also have four different KGB sources who say LHO did meet with Kostikov. 

And we also have the CIA or other US intel agency that may be actively smoke-screening what LHO was doing in MC.

In other words, LHO was there, but the CIA has had to create a false narrative regarding his whereabouts---that is, LHO's meeting with handlers, staying at a safe house, being ferried to and from MC by car or airplane has to be obscured, but the CIA was worried the KGB had recorded or photographed LHO's visit to Kostikov.

So they could not deny LHO met with Kostikov (in fact, I think they wanted that meeting to happen). But they had to hide it was CIA-handlers shepherding LHO around MC and into Kostikov's arms. 

Just a thought. 

Are you open-minded to my suggestion (which I think David Joseph is pondering)? 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

31 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jeez Ben, you are NOT open minded.

31 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But we also have four different KGB sources who say LHO did meet with Kostikov.

 

What I said is that you refused to accept what most knowledgeable researchers do accept, that the report you posted -- stating that Oswald had visited the Soviet Embassy -- was based on a lie. And therefore is invalid as evidence. That is an excellent example of your being closed minded.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

32 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Are you open-minded to my suggestion (which I think David Joseph is pondering)?

 

I am an open minded person.

But I place a lot more importance on early statements than I do late statements. And I do not readily accept the statements of former intelligence agents, especially officers.

There are numerous instances of people saying later on that they were involved one way or another with the assassination. So the possibility of former KGB agents lying about meeting Oswald is quite real.

Furthermore, their description of Oswald's actions is far more in line with the Warren Commission's description of Oswald's demeanor, than it is with the description I have developed from my study of his actions. That is to say, the former KGB agents' description of Oswald's behavior is way out of character.

When I add all that to the fact that there is virtually no evidence of Oswald even being in Mexico City, I have to resoundingly conclude that Oswald never met with the ex-KGB agents that you believe he did.

I do, however, accept that the ex-KGB agents may have met with an Oswald impersonator... much like the Cuban Consulate employees did.

I also accept that Oswald may have been in Mexico City, or somewhere else in Mexico, while the charade was going on in the Cuban Consulate. He had to be somewhere. But in all likelihood he wasn't involved in the MC charade we are discussing.

IMO

 

[Benjamin Cole]

24 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I am an open minded person.

But I place a lot more importance on early statements than I do late statements. And I do not readily accept the statements of former intelligence agents, especially officers.

There are numerous instances of people saying later on that they were involved one way or another with the assassination. So the possibility of former KGB agents lying about meeting Oswald is quite real.

Furthermore, their description of Oswald's actions is far more in line with the Warren Commission's description of Oswald's demeanor, than it is with the description I have developed from my study of his actions. That is to say, the former KGB agents' description of Oswald's behavior is way out of character.

When I add all that to the fact that there is virtually no evidence of Oswald even being in Mexico City, I have to resoundingly conclude that Oswald never met with the ex-KGB agents that you believe he did.

I do, however, accept that the ex-KGB agents may have met with an Oswald impersonator... much like the Cuban Consulate employees did.

I also accept that Oswald may have been in Mexico City, or somewhere else in Mexico, while the charade was going on in the Cuban Consulate. He had to be somewhere. But in all likelihood he wasn't involved in the MC charade we are discussing.

IMO

 

That's fine. We are on different pages, but all good. 

[Pat Speer]

21 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Or, unbelievable as it may seem, he lied to stay on the right side of history.

I don't remember his name, David, but the American who put together Nechiporenko's book spoke at the 2013 Bethesda conference. He came across as credible, IMO. As a good capitalist, he saw an opportunity to make a buck after the collapse of the Soviet Union. His angle--fly to Moscow and sign up former KGB agents to tell their stories. Well, he met with a number of them, and described them as mostly bitter old vodka drinkers, as I remember. In any event, he met with Kostikov and others who could confirm Nechiporenko's story, and said they all backed him up. He said, furthermore, that he was hoping they'd tell him something sexy, and was kind of disappointed when they did not. That's the way I recall it, anyhow. His presentation is probably available somewhere. 

FWIW, I was sitting with John Judge during this presentation. As I recall Judge was a bit mystified by what he had just witnessed. I remember talking with him afterwards and him expressing some disbelief, but I can't remember if he thought the man himself was some government shill, or that the former KGB agents had obviously lied to him. I think it was the former. But can not swear to it. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Leslie Sharp]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:33 AM, David Josephs said:

@Benjamin Cole

From Sept 27th until the YMCA on Oct 3rd/4th, and understanding that Oswald was not in Mexico as described by the investigation, we don't really know where he was, exactly.  As there is no evidence other than the obvious that places him in/around Dallas during that week.

If he was flown in and out of Mexico to have a meeting at the Luna Hotel about 20 mins south of the Embassies area; And is only in MX for a day or at most overnight for this meeting and actually does attend the Rave party... and is returned to Dallas by the 1st...  there is no evidence in the bogus MX journey/stay in MX - or any evidence from Dallas that precludes this from occurring. 

The CiD notebook's suggestion of this meet and the substantiation from those in the Cobb/Davis extended circle, again, does not contradict the conclusions about the travel and call evidence I arrived at in my research, so I think it prudent to no longer discount the possibility... but not without this big concern:

 Why have the meeting at all, why in MX when these key players were all together in New Orleans not long before this time.  What is so meaningful or significant of THIS meeting at THAT time... and what actions result from said meeting.  If he's already being flown in.. wouldn't a photo of him have been important to help the incrimination?

If you can create bogus calls and transcripts, why can't you put a photo of him in MX into the mix and solidify your position against him to back the phone calls?

But that didn't happen.  He wasn't PROVEN to be in MX at all... and the long redacted and suppressed LITAMIL/9 reports - when finally released and to my satisfaction - supported the notion he was not there.

 

 

David, you drive home a significant point. Why would individuals who had access to one another in New Orleans be sighted in Mexico City at the same time at the same party. Tom Davis indicated in a statement made upon arrest in Tangier that he and wife Carolyn maintained a permanent residence in MC as well as the US.  Perhaps Oswald had an invitation to join them? Lafitte's datebook indicates Oswald and Tom are to meet at Broglie's Hotel Luma on Friday, September 27.  That same entry includes the names "Algur — Mex. City  Ilya —."  The following day, September 28, Lafitte makes a note "Bowen - Hudson Mex school cover — wife Spain ..." and on Sunday, September 29, Lafitte notes, "Tom at embassy — done." September 30, Lafitte writes "—— Money from Dallas" and "Davis — Mx City — Where next week?" This string of Mexico City-related entries closes with "Cable to Madrid — all ok — Tell Tom D. O says come to Madrid."

 

On October 3, Lafitte indicates a meeting with "Caretaker 10:30."  We have ample reason to argue that Caretaker is based in Dallas, for example the Lafitte entry of October 6, "Oswald — issue (!)" followed by "check with caretaker . . . "

On November 2, Lafitte notes, "Runner / Runner" (FBI) w/T. 4 P.M."* Within days, a classified ad appears in a Dallas paper which pleads with running man to contact Lee.

Fundamentally, the purpose of Oswald's trip to Mexico City which has been speculated about for decades has yet to be resolved. We argue that Lafitte leaves many clues, including the August meetings held in New Orleans that refer to MC and Joannides, and the entries that mention Mexico City earlier in the year, particularly May 10, "T. says tail LO — no direct contact calls? No. report to Angleton + not here [wife] Rene says A looks like cadaver — Mexico City?" Is this indication that one of Oswald's alleged earlier trips to MC occurred in May, and does that not conflict with his job at Reily Coffee?  

@David JosephsIn addition to your thorough examination of documents, particularly those focused on the Russian elements in MC in Sept/Oct, you have effectively posed the question of "which" Oswald traveled to MC in late September, prompting us to explore "which" Oswald is Lafitte dealing with throughout 1963.

 

*a potential document examiner flipped through the datebook and paused on the November 2 entry.  Within a few minutes, he closed the datebook, handed it back with words to the effect, "I don't think this is my project." His official bio indicates he is a contract examiner for government agencies including the bureau.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I don't remember his name, David, but the American who put together Nechiporenko's book spoke at the 2013 Bethesda conference. He came across as credible, IMO. As a good capitalist, he saw an opportunity to make a buck after the collapse of the Soviet Union. His angle--fly to Moscow and sign up former KGB agents to tell their stories. Well, he met with a number of them, and described them as mostly bitter old vodka drinkers, as I remember. In any event, he met with Kostikov and others who could confirm Nechiporenko's story, and said they all backed him up. He said, furthermore, that he was hoping they'd tell him something sexy, and was kind of disappointed when they did not. That's the way I recall it, anyhow. His presentation is probably available somewhere. 

FWIW, I was sitting with John Judge during this presentation. As I recall Judge was a bit mystified by what he had just witnessed. I remember talking with him afterwards and him expressing some disbelief, but I can't remember if he thought the man himself was some government shill, or that the former KGB agents had obviously lied to him. I think it was the former. But can not swear to it. 

The KGB'ers are what I call "credible witnesses."

Allow me to explain: We cannot know for sure if the KGB'ers are telling the truth or not. I think they are. 

But, indisputably, KGB'ers are who they say they are, and they worked in the Russian Embassy at the time LHO is chronicled as visiting. 

The KGB'ers are not in the same category as Tosh Plumlees or James Files, or other "witnesses" who have no evidence or credibility they were where they say they were on the relevant dates. 

BTW, I put Paul Landis in this "credible witness" category. No one disputes he was a Secret Service officer, and in the limo of Nov. 22. Is he telling the truth? I think so.  He is not another "crank off the street." 

I am mystified that LHO being in, or not being in, MC has become some sort of point of honor, or that I lean towards the former is taken with umbrage. 

In fact, I rather suspect LHO was "handled" down into a MC meeting with Kostikov, triggered by the US intel services---for that very reason: They wanted such a meeting, as part of a biography build. 

Yes, it sure looks like LHO was impersonated while in MC, possibly by US intel, or KGB, Cuban intel, or possibly even Mexico intel.

False paperwork may have been created on LHO's stay there--indeed, to cover where LHO really was, possibly on assignment for US intel.  

The KGB itself may have made fake phone calls, in a counter-intel op. 

It is entirely reprehensible and unjustifiable that Sylvia Duran was mistreated in custody.  But she was a Cuban asset, and loyal to her cause, the way CIA'ers are loyal to theirs.  Was she always telling the truth?  

BTW, both Cuban employees Duran and Azcue told the HSCA they met the real LHO in their embassy. 

They are both lying also? They are also credible witnesses. They are who they say they are and they worked in the embassy on the relevant dates. 

So the KGB'ers and the Cuban embassy employees, all credible witnesses, are all lying. 

I tend to think LHO was in MC, the way everyone says. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Benjamin Cole