LHO was in Mexico City

[Leslie Sharp]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Heavens no. But the authorities didn't believe Cobb's story and she was CIA. So the conspiracy theory is that she was instructed by her handler to vouch for Garro.

 

 

I don't know about that memo.

 

 

Got it. Facetious.

I happened to have been reviewing the Scott memo yesterday in context of the EF thread, “Mary Haverstick’s Important ...”.   Portions of the memo can be found in my comment.  In essence, Scott commits to file that Cobb is a brazen wanton hussy prone to violence against felines and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Over the weekend when the dust started to settle from an encounter with Mary Haverstick, I opined to a small group of researchers, you watch. The next related debate on EF will be along the lines, “Was Oswald Ever In Mexico City?”  

Edited December 14, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Sandy Larsen]

45 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Got it. Facetious.

I happened to have been reviewing the Scott memo yesterday in context of the EF thread, “Mary Haverstick’s Important ...”.   Portions of the memo can be found in my comment.  In essence, Scott commits to file that Cobb is a brazen wanton hussy prone to violence against felines and shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Over the weekend when the dust started to settle from an encounter with Mary Haverstick, I opined to a small group of researchers, you watch. The next related debate on EF will be along the lines, “Was Oswald Ever In Mexico City?”  

 

Leslie,

No, I didn't mean anything I said to be facetious. My response to you was shorter than what you deserved only because I had forgotten about the Mary Haverstick thread and book when I wrote what I did about June Cobb. I just went back to that thread and got caught up on it, and so I now see that you informed us about the Win Scott memo.

I'm sure you know more about June Cobb than I do. My area  of interest is on Elena Garro and her story about Oswald and his pals fraternizing with Silvia Duran and friends at her house. You see, her story corroborates parts of the story of Gilberto Alvarado, who claimed that Oswald was paid a $6500 ($5000 + $1500 for expenses) advance while in the Cuban Consulate, to assassinate someone.

In addition, there was another story reported by someone else that Oswald came back to the States with $5000. So this is also corroborative.

Then, of course, there is the Oswald phone call that makes it sound like Oswald had just met with KGB assassinations chief Valeriy Kostikov.

All of these stories are now regarded as fake by most researchers. But when they are all considered together, it becomes clear -- to some of us -- that the CIA assassination plotters were behind all these false stories, their purpose being to make it look like Oswald was in cahoots with Cuba and Russia over the assassination. That they were paying Oswald to get it done.

This, of course, would create a pretext for war. Perhaps an invasion of Cuba.

Now, having said all that, I must mention that it appears that there is no documentation available to indicate that Garro's story came out early, shortly after the assassination. June Cobb's corroboration of Elena's story isn't even mentioned till 1965. Way too late for them to be of any use in the plot.

However, we do know that Garro was in Mexican Police custody shortly after the assassination, as were Silvia Duran and a number of people at the party she was having at the time of her arrest. There is apparently strong indication that Garro told her story right after the assassination and that is the reason she was taken into custody. And is the reason Silvia Duran and her guest were arrested and interrogated.

So I do believe the Garro story came out early, and that we just haven't documentation for that. June Cobb's corroborative story probably also came out early, but documentation for it was also scrubbed.

I apologize if you are already aware of all this. I mention it because, due to a fairly new thread of mine, I have discovered that our theory isn't as widely accepted, or even understood, as I had thought it was. As far as I can tell, the only researchers who believe it are Jim DiEugenio, Peter Dale Scott, David Josephs, Cliff Varnell, and myself.

Which is rather depressing.

 

[Charles Blackmon]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 

In addition, there was another story reported by someone else that Oswald came back to the States with $5000. 

 

 

If Oswald came back from Mexico City with $5000 some researcher in the past 60 years would have followed the money trail. To my knowledge nothing has ever been shown regarding such a money trail. 

[Sandy Larsen]

48 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

If Oswald came back from Mexico City with $5000 some researcher in the past 60 years would have followed the money trail. To my knowledge nothing has ever been shown regarding such a money trail. 

 

Charles, all these stories are fake. The CIA plotters made them up and had assets claim them in an attempt to make it look like Oswald was in cahoots with the Cubans and Russians.

The plotters created a fake narrative of the Cubans paying Oswald $6500 to do the killing. Actually $5000 of that was for the killing and $1500 for expenses.

Then this guy (I forget his name) claimed that Oswald had $5000 when he returned from Mexico City.

Of course none of this is true. It was what the FBI was supposed to discover in their post-assassination investigation. That way Cuba and Russia would get the blame for the assassination.

There were four CIA assets telling these stories.  But they were all lies. Just like Oswald meeting with KGB assassinations chief Valeriy Kostikov was a lie. In that case to implicate the Russians.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

There were four CIA assets telling these stories.  But they were all lies. Just like Oswald meeting with KGB assassinations chief Valeriy Kostikov was a lie. In that case to implicate the Russians.

Everything's a lie, everything's fake. Pretty convenient to just trot that out as an excuse every time someone challenges you on your claims.

[Greg Doudna]

A highly credible US FBI informant highly placed in the U.S. Communist Party, Childs, reported to his handlers (in this case he actually had documented FBI handlers) that he had met with Castro in Cuba and Castro told him he had been informed of Oswald’s visit to the Cuban consulate in Mexico City. Sounds like Castro and Castro’s sources in Mexico City believed it was Oswald there. Either it was a pretty good impersonation of Oswald or maybe it was Oswald. And Oswald back in Dallas told of being in Mexico City according to multiple witnesses, it’s in his address book, no evidence Oswald was somewhere else in the days in question, against interest for US agencies/handlers post-Nov 22 to suborn perjury to have Oswald there. Surely the lack of produced photo surveillance of Oswald in agreement with post-Nov 22 US interest not to have public evidence of Oswald Cuban/Soviet contacts, is amenable to some other explanation than that Oswald never was there.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[David Von Pein]

14 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Everything's a lie, everything's fake. Pretty convenient to just trot that out as an excuse every time someone challenges you on your claims.

As you know, Jonathan, that's the M.O. of virtually all Internet conspiracy theorists. And has been for years now.

Here's what Jim Hargrove wrote in December 2018:

JIM HARGROVE SAID: Question: How much of the evidence against “Lee Harvey Oswald” is fake? Answer: ALL OF IT, except, of course, for the many mistakes made during the hasty cover-up.

DAVID VON PEIN THEN SAID: Thanks, Jim Hargrove, for putting that belief in writing (and in a succinct form). I'll now be able to use your quote whenever I want to highlight yet another CTer's absurd "Over The Top" beliefs relating to the evidence in the John F. Kennedy murder case. Much obliged. (And the placing of quotation marks around Lee Harvey Oswald's name is another humorous little idiosyncrasy to be found among the current batch of 21st-century conspiracy fantasists. As if there was actually more than one "Lee Harvey Oswald". Too cute.)

 

[Sandy Larsen]

6 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

And Oswald back in Dallas told of being in Mexico City according to multiple witnesses,

 

Cites please.

Oswald denied ever being in Mexico City in his interrogations.

 

[David Von Pein]

11 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Cites please.

Oswald denied ever being in Mexico City in his interrogations.

But what about COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 15, Sandy? (Which has OSWALD'S own signature on it.)

Don't tell me! Let me guess! CE15 is yet another piece of "fake" evidence!?

Is that going to be your response to CE15, Sandy?

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Cites please.

Oswald denied ever being in Mexico City in his interrogations.

Dallas Police Detective L.C. Graves, WC, under oath

US Post Office Inspector Holmes, same

Ruth Paine, Oswald writing letter, same

Marina Oswald, same, HSCA, memoirs Lee and Marina

Michael Paine, saw letter of Oswald weekend written, WC testimony

Letter, handwritten Oswald, authenticated as Oswald’s handwriting

Conflicting reports on how Oswald answered Hosty’s Mexico City question Nov 22. All reports agree the question was asked, Oswald’s answer was interrupted, and there was no follow-up to the question after the interruption. And of course there is no tape or verbatim stenographers transcription of what Oswald said. Against reports that Oswald denied, Hosty’s sworn Church Committee testimony said Oswald did not answer the question. Other reports say Oswald’s reaction or answer was to the effect of, “How did you find that out?” The lack of follow-up to the question certainly calls into doubt that there was any interest in confirming a “yes” answer. more like a hot potato question and maybe coverup attempt of Oswald having been there.

 

13 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

 

 

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

A highly credible US FBI informant highly placed in the U.S. Communist Party, Childs, reported to his handlers (in this case he actually had documented FBI handlers) that he had met with Castro in Cuba and Castro told him he had been informed of Oswald’s visit to the Cuban consulate in Mexico City. Sounds like Castro and Castro’s sources in Mexico City believed it was Oswald there. Either it was a pretty good impersonation of Oswald or maybe it was Oswald. And Oswald back in Dallas told of being in Mexico City according to multiple witnesses, it’s in his address book, no evidence Oswald was somewhere else in the days in question, against interest for US agencies/handlers post-Nov 22 to suborn perjury to have Oswald there. Surely the lack of produced photo surveillance of Oswald in agreement with post-Nov 22 US interest not to have public evidence of Oswald Cuban/Soviet contacts, is amenable to some other explanation than that Oswald never was there.

As I recall, ZR/Rifle was a book put out with the assistance of Cuban Intelligence. As I recall, its central premise was that Oswald went to the consulate as part of a CIA pilot. Heck, this book even had an ID photo of the real Oswald on a form not give the Warren Commission. So, yeah, both the Cubans AND the Russians claimed the real Oswald was in Mexico City. 

[David Boylan]

44 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

As I recall, ZR/Rifle was a book put out with the assistance of Cuban Intelligence. As I recall, its central premise was that Oswald went to the consulate as part of a CIA pilot. Heck, this book even had an ID photo of the real Oswald on a form not give the Warren Commission. So, yeah, both the Cubans AND the Russians claimed the real Oswald was in Mexico City. 

Claudia Furiati was the author with help from Gen. Fabian Escalante, Cuban G-2. Lots of speculation about Richard Cain and Eladio del Valle.

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

But what about COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 15, Sandy? (Which has OSWALD'S own signature on it.)

Don't tell me! Let me guess! CE15 is yet another piece of "fake" evidence!?

Is that going to be your response to CE15, Sandy?

 

DVP--

You are correct...but only in half. 

Unfortunately, both CT'ers and LN'ers become highly selective in evidence and witness testimony.

Unlike others, I welcome your participation in this forum. But what is good for the goose is good for the gander...

Do you think the two typed and contemporaneous police reports from the Dallas Police Dept., signed by two detectives and two patrolmen, attesting they found "steel jacketed" bullet in the home of General Walker on April 10, are accurate? 

Can this evidence be dismissed? 

If, as I strongly suspect, the DPD reports are accurate, then what does that say about the copper-jacketed bullet (CE573) that the WC purports is the true Walker Bullet? 

BTW, yes LHO was in Mexico City. Why this has become a point of honor among some mystifies me. So he was there. So what? 

 

[David Von Pein]

27 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Do you think the two typed and contemporaneous police reports from the Dallas Police Dept., signed by two detectives and two patrolmen, attesting they found "steel jacketed" bullet in the home of General Walker on April 10, are accurate? 

The CE573 bullet was positively IDed in June '64 by the officer who first found it at Walker's house. Why isn't this good enough for CTers?....

"On June 12, 1964, Exhibit C148 [aka CE573], a mutilated rifle slug, was shown to Billy Gene Norvell, former Dallas police officer, 1603 Darr Street, Apartment 147, Irving, Texas, by Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum, Federal Bureau of Investigation. He identified this exhibit as the same one which he had found at the residence of Major General Edwin A. Walker, Dallas, Texas, on April 10, 1963, and identified his marking on this slug." -- CE2011 <---CLICK

Plus....let me add this....

The fact that CE573 (the "Walker bullet") cannot be linked to any specific rifle is virtual proof, right there, that it was not "planted" into the evidence pile. Because only a total idiot would want to do something so stupid. Although, yes, CE573 looks exactly like CE399 in many respects. No doubt about it. But if you're going to go to the trouble of PLANTING a bullet to frame a particular person, you're surely going to make sure that that bullet can be tied exclusively to the patsy's gun. Wouldn't you agree?

 

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/12/edwin-walker-and-lee-harvey-oswald.html

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by David Von Pein

[David Josephs]

6 hours ago, Charles Blackmon said:

If Oswald came back from Mexico City with $5000 some researcher in the past 60 years would have followed the money trail. To my knowledge nothing has ever been shown regarding such a money trail. 

LHO did not make the trip, nor was in of the locations, nor on any of the tapes, offered up as evidence.

Alvarado was a DAP asset telling a lie starting 3 days after the fact.

If there was a photo of Oswald - our Oswald - in MX on those dates, do you really believe THAT would be withheld when the entire point was to prove he was there?

The FBI's own reports proved he was not "there" nor traveled to or from.

AZCUE, DURAN, LITAMIL/7 & 9 all state on record the man was not there.  THERE (if he was at the LUNA with Davis, prove it)

The hotel registry was provided by OCHOA as was the FM-8 and summary reports putting OH LEE in the "O" slot alphabetically

@Benjamin Cole   Sum up the #1 item of evidence in support of that conclusion please...  what do you have that proves he was there - and THERE meaning that hotel and those embassy/consulates.

What say you about this my friend?  why would they need to "fudge" actual incriminating phone calls?  maybe kinda why they needed to FUDGE the ZFILM.   

Y'know... I realize that my articles on this bogus trip is long, detailed and has a ridiculous # of documents which are then cross-referenced with documents trying to reinforce Oswald being there.

Members of the Gobernacion who are used to testify they were on this or that bus with these or those people going from here to there...  

So maybe you produce the evidence which actually puts the man there, or admit you've made a terrible mistake and the actual mountain of evidence proving the CIA "fudged" the entire thing is real.

NOW - did they fudge it becasue he was actually flown in and out and had a meeting at the LUNA, OR is this a paper trail as the CIA had done 100's of times in order to keep a lid on Hoover?

Up to you.  You want to hang your hat on 3 KGB men...    I think you're being played as a fool and then doubling down here on the forum with people who know better.

 

Not "Oswald wasn't there" but instead Hoover says "there is a second person" since OSWALD was in DALLAS working for the FBI

 

ANAHUAC?  what happened to Del Norte and the original Flecha Rojas?

 

THAT day at the consulate in New Orleans

ACTUAL FM-11 monthly recap:

 

The infamous bogus bus ticket found in a suitcase a month before publishing.  Ticket proven to have never been issued or used.

LITAMIL/9 - one of the most effective double agents we had - a close friend of AZCUE

 

Doesn't matter if it was closed, he was there.

 

FBI master list of reports with 5 that are undated and without description - and the 5 reports they refer to below