LHO was in Mexico City

[Pat Speer]

8 hours ago, Ed LeDoux said:

You mean why would soviets admit the fake defector was at the embassy.

If they are the fakers then no they have no bomb, and wont be dropping it.

Besides, hint hint

They already propagandized it.

(and they sounded like fools)

Whats next a song and dance on the embassy steps by a Six foot tall 250 lb blonde Lee Oswald (but not captured on film because all intell surveillance cameras were sent out for cleaning of course) it was a holiday. 

Question, Seeing as our intell knew Lee wasnt on film, tape or photographed then why would anyone believe he was there? 

Did Lee catapult himself to MC or catch a ride on a CIA charter as the border crossing/s put a huge shadow on any fabled trip.

Cant get to MC without passing GO

And now let the excuses fly as to the russians, blonde oswalds and why no proof of Lee at any embassy in MC has ever been "dropped"

 

Maybe Occam can shave you down.

 

 

Numerous witnesses claim they saw him while he was supposedly in MC.  And he wasn't seen anywhere else when he was supposedly in MC. 

So Occam says he was in MC, right?

Edited December 26, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Sandy Larsen]

23 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Numerous witnesses claim they saw him while he was supposedly in MC.  And he wasn't seen anywhere else when he was supposedly in MC.

 

They didn't say they saw the REAL Lee Harvey Oswald. They said they saw a guy who said he was Lee Harvey Oswald. There's a huge difference there.

Both Sylvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue said that their Oswald had blond hair. Duran said he was short, ~ 5' 5". If the REAL Oswald was in Mexico City, why didn't he visit the Cuban Consulate instead of the blond Oswald impersonator doing so? Occam says because he wasn't in MC.

And since the real Oswald wasn't in MC, then he wasn't the one who visited Kostikov. (Though I doubt anybody visited him at all. It was just a fake story.)

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

They didn't say they saw the REAL Lee Harvey Oswald. They said they saw a guy who said he was Lee Harvey Oswald. There's a huge difference there.

Both Sylvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue said that their Oswald had blond hair. Duran said he was short, ~ 5' 5". If the REAL Oswald was in Mexico City, why didn't he visit the Cuban Consulate instead of the blond Oswald impersonator doing so? Occam says because he wasn't in MC.

And since the real Oswald wasn't in MC, then he wasn't the one who visited Kostikov. (Though I doubt anybody visited him at all. It was just a fake story.)

 

 

And to corroborate all that is the fact that the phone calls were all made by Oswald impersonator(s).

Furthermore, with all the surveillance cameras going, not a single photo of the real Oswald was produced. Which supports the Oswald-wasn't-there concept.

I don't understand why anybody believes that Oswald was there. Just because the Warren Report says so?

 

[Pat Speer]

28 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

They didn't say they saw the REAL Lee Harvey Oswald. They said they saw a guy who said he was Lee Harvey Oswald. There's a huge difference there.

Both Sylvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue said that their Oswald had blond hair. Duran said he was short, ~ 5' 5". If the REAL Oswald was in Mexico City, why didn't he visit the Cuban Consulate instead of the blond Oswald impersonator doing so? Occam says because he wasn't in MC.

And since the real Oswald wasn't in MC, then he wasn't the one who visited Kostikov. (Though I doubt anybody visited him at all. It was just a fake story.)

 

The books Passport to Assassination and ZR/Rifle were written by and with the assistance of members of Russian and Cuban intelligence. Both books claim the real Oswald was in Mexico City. Kostikov, for that matter, was interviewed for Passport to Assassination. As I recall he said he met the real Oswald. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

And to corroborate all that is the fact that the phone calls were all made by Oswald impersonator(s).

Furthermore, with all the surveillance cameras going, not a single photo of the real Oswald was produced. Which supports the Oswald-wasn't-there concept.

I don't understand why anybody believes that Oswald was there. Just because the Warren Report says so?

 

No, because the Mexicans said so, the Russians said so, and the Cubans said so. 

[Sandy Larsen]

27 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

The books Passport to Assassination and ZR/Rifle were written by and with the assistance of members of Russian and Cuban intelligence. Both books claim the real Oswald was in Mexico City.

 

And you're going to believe what some out-of-work ex-KGB officers said in 1993?

Here's what Cuban Intelligence REALLY said, twenty years earlier:

CBS Evening News, August 3, 1978:

ROGER MUDD: For the past two days the Havana government has been presenting what it says is evidence that the CIA conspired with the Mafia in placing the blame for the assassination of President Kennedy on Cuba. The Cubans claim that Lee Harvey Oswald was set up by the CIA to give the U.S. a pretext for attacking Cuba. ...

ED RABELL: ... [Eusebio Azcue, former consul for Cuba in Mexico in 1963,] indicated that photographs admitted with the visa application and those of Oswald taken after the murder in Dallas appeared to be of the same individual -- but that the person who submitted the visa photographs was not Oswald. Cuban officials suggest that the man who applied for the visa was really a CIA agent who was part of the plot to link Oswald with Cuba. ...

Source: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=55413#relPageId=27

 

[Sandy Larsen]

7 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

No, because the Mexicans said so, the Russians said so, and the Cubans said so. 

 

I just showed you that the Cubans said that the Oswald who visited their consulate in MC was a CIA agent posing as Oswald. The 1993 book you cited is wrong.

The Mexicans and Russians said only that a person calling himself Lee Harvey Oswald was there. They didn't know that he wasn't the real Oswald.

There is no evidence that the real Oswald was in Mexico City. But plenty of evidence that a blond Oswald impersonator was.

 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I just showed you that the Cubans said that the Oswald who visited their consulate in MC was a CIA agent posing as Oswald. The 1993 book you cited is wrong.

The Mexicans and Russians said only that a person calling himself Lee Harvey Oswald was there. They didn't know that he wasn't the real Oswald.

There is no evidence that the real Oswald was in Mexico City. But plenty of evidence that a blond Oswald impersonator was.

 

If you read ZR/Rifle you'll see that it has forms and photos submitted by the real Oswald to the Cuban government. This book was encouraged and authorized by Fabian Escalante, the head of Cuban intelligence. If he'd thought they'd been visited by a fake Oswald, he'd have said so. 

The Cuban Government's position is now, and always has been, that they were visited by the real Oswald. 

[Sandy Larsen]

3 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

The Cuban Government's position is now, and always has been, that they were visited by the real Oswald.

 

You're in denial Pat.

Here's what Cuban Intelligence position was and is:

CBS Evening News, August 3, 1978:

ROGER MUDD: For the past two days the Havana government has been presenting what it says is evidence that the CIA conspired with the Mafia in placing the blame for the assassination of President Kennedy on Cuba. The Cubans claim that Lee Harvey Oswald was set up by the CIA to give the U.S. a pretext for attacking Cuba. ...

ED RABELL: ... [Eusebio Azcue, former consul for Cuba in Mexico in 1963,] indicated that photographs admitted with the visa application and those of Oswald taken after the murder in Dallas appeared to be of the same individual -- but that the person who submitted the visa photographs was not Oswald. Cuban officials suggest that the man who applied for the visa was really a CIA agent who was part of the plot to link Oswald with Cuba. ...

Source: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=55413#relPageId=27

And there's more! Read the whole document. And the news article that follows it.

 

So...

Cuban intelligence said it wasn't the real Oswald who visited the Cuban Consulate.

Silvia Duran said it wasn't the real Oswald.

Eusebio Azcue said it wasn't the real Oswald.

J. Edgar Hoover said it wasn't the real Oswald.

 

The only person who thinks it was the real Oswald is you!

(I think Fidel Castro went along with  the cover story publicly. Just like Hoover went along with it publicly.)

 

[Leslie Sharp]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

They didn't say they saw the REAL Lee Harvey Oswald. They said they saw a guy who said he was Lee Harvey Oswald. There's a huge difference there.

Both Sylvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue said that their Oswald had blond hair. Duran said he was short, ~ 5' 5". If the REAL Oswald was in Mexico City, why didn't he visit the Cuban Consulate instead of the blond Oswald impersonator doing so? Occam says because he wasn't in MC.

And since the real Oswald wasn't in MC, then he wasn't the one who visited Kostikov. (Though I doubt anybody visited him at all. It was just a fake story.)

 

Was the REAL Lee Harvey Oswald designated as such by consensus, and if so, when?
If not, which records are relied on to prove the REAL Oswald wasn't in MC?  As far as I know — and assuming these deliberations are intended to lead to Nov 22 in Dallas — there is nothing to establish where the Oswald-who-served-as-perfect-patsy-in-the-TSBD was on September 27, other than Odio's vague recollection? 

Did Hoover identify the Oswald he was referring to in his January 18 note,

 

"I can't forget CIA withholding the French espionage activities in USA, nor the false story re. Oswald's trip to Mexico City, only to mention two of their instances of double dealing." -- Dir. Hoover, 1-18-1964

This was just weeks before Hoover received the chain of communication from the Paris Legat regarding Souetre/Roux/Mertz and the expulsion from Dallas on November 22. 

 

Does anyone see any reason to avoid asking why both "the French" and "Oswald" are heavy on Hoover's mind in mid-January? Suspect assassins AND the patsy?

Hoover received his first correspondence weeks later from Frenchman Paul Gluc who corroborated to a degree what his own Legat was reporting on; had he pursued the leads, he might not only have solved the crime of the century, he could have inflicted a pemanent wound on his archenemies within THE CIA.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Sandy Larsen]

2 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Was the REAL Lee Harvey Oswald designated as such by consensus, and if so, when?
If not, which records are relied on to prove the REAL Oswald wasn't in MC?  As far as I know — and assuming these deliberations are intended to lead to Nov 22 in Dallas — there is nothing to establish where the Oswald-who-served-as-perfect-patsy-in-the-TSBD was on September 27, other than Odio's vague recollection?

 

I don't know where the real Oswald was during the MC incident. But he didn't visit the Cuban Consulate. There are zero witnesses of his being there. There are two witnesses of his NOT being there. So it is ridiculous to claim he was there.

 

[Leslie Sharp]

8 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I don't know where the real Oswald was during the MC incident. But he didn't visit the Cuban Consulate. There are zero witnesses of his being there. There are two witnesses of his NOT being there. So it is ridiculous to claim he was there.

 

Then is it not also ridiculous to even be discussing 'him' at this late date?

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

You're in denial Pat.

Here's what Cuban Intelligence position was and is:

CBS Evening News, August 3, 1978:

ROGER MUDD: For the past two days the Havana government has been presenting what it says is evidence that the CIA conspired with the Mafia in placing the blame for the assassination of President Kennedy on Cuba. The Cubans claim that Lee Harvey Oswald was set up by the CIA to give the U.S. a pretext for attacking Cuba. ...

ED RABELL: ... [Eusebio Azcue, former consul for Cuba in Mexico in 1963,] indicated that photographs admitted with the visa application and those of Oswald taken after the murder in Dallas appeared to be of the same individual -- but that the person who submitted the visa photographs was not Oswald. Cuban officials suggest that the man who applied for the visa was really a CIA agent who was part of the plot to link Oswald with Cuba. ...

Source: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=55413#relPageId=27

And there's more! Read the whole document. And the news article that follows it.

 

So...

Cuban intelligence said it wasn't the real Oswald who visited the Cuban Consulate.

Silvia Duran said it wasn't the real Oswald.

Eusebio Azcue said it wasn't the real Oswald.

J. Edgar Hoover said it wasn't the real Oswald.

 

The only person who thinks it was the real Oswald is you!

(I think Fidel Castro went along with  the cover story publicly. Just like Hoover went along with it publicly.)

 

What a crock!!!

First of all, I think you're taking Duran and Hoover out of context. If you could point us to where they both said Oswald DID NOT go to Mexico it would be appreciated. (What Hoover said was that Oswald was impersonated in the photos--a point now accepted by most everyone. And besides, the FBI as an institution most certainly believed Oswald went to Mexico. As far as Duran, I seem to recall that she ended up talking to Phil Shenon for his book and that the point of contention was not that she claimed she never met with Oswald, but that she continued to dispute that she'd taken Oswald out to a dance, or whatever.) 

As far as me being the only one... Tell that to John Newman, and Fabian Escalante, and heck, all the Russians who met with Oswald at the Embassy. 

[Benjamin Cole]

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/180-10142-10301.pdf

page 27 of paper copy

---30---

I would have to say Duran (Tirado) does not appear to be a reliable witness. 

She also stated that LHO signed applications in her presence and she stapled his photo to the applications. That seems to raise questions. 

Why assume Duran is telling the (checkered) truth and other people (KGB'ers) are lying? Duran's recorded commentary is indisputably self-contradictory. 

And if you say "Azcue said," then mention "Mirabal said." 

No doubt, there was frenzy of spook-work, smoke-and-mirrors, and intentional confusion-making before, during and after LHO's visit to MC. 

Azcue and Duran were also communists. (There is nothing wrong with communism alone as an ideology--consider the Amish, or kibbutzim. Fine for people who like it, and I think the Amish are happier for it). 

But being devoted to a cause may have colored Duran's and Azcue's commentary. Why are they taken at their word, but the KGB'ers are not? 

It seems accepted LHO was not visibly in Dallas during the purported MC hiatus.

So, where was he? 

It has been suggested there was a double, close enough in appearance to LHO, to trick people. That double visited the Russian Embassy.  If so, why not use that double to go to the Cuban Embassy?

What was the business with the blond guy? Was the blond guy fictional, or even a Russian? 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

10 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Then is it not also ridiculous to even be discussing 'him' at this late date?

 

Yes, I think it should be. But still people believe that the real Oswald visited the Cuban Consulate. I am merely pointing out that the evidence strongly suggests otherwise.