Interesting note from LHO arrest.

[Michael Kalin]

6 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

McWatters does not identify Oswald as boarding his bus, nor as the only male who he issued a transfer to. What evidence are you basing your statement on?

On one level see the Naysayers section at the bottom of the Harvey and Lee Depart the TSBD article mentioned above.

On another higher level taking McWatters' bus fits in with related events, also mentioned above.

[Tony Krome]

10 minutes ago, Michael Kalin said:

On one level see the Naysayers section at the bottom of the Harvey and Lee Depart the TSBD article mentioned above.

On another higher level taking McWatters' bus fits in with related events, also mentioned above.

A lone assassin narrative, and a no-one conspiring with a lone assassin narrative, can not include a dark complected/negro person picking him up outside the TSBD, hence the bus/taxi narrative. They didn't count on Oswald whistling shrilly, and attracting the attention of Roger Craig. An assassin would not whistle in a crowd that included officers of the law. Oswald was no such person.

[David Josephs]

41 minutes ago, Michael Kalin said:

Precisely the point. Oswald took McWatters' bus to get to the library not his room. He changed his plans on the fly which is why he got off the Marsalis bus.

Tippit's intercept was directed toward Marsalis. DPD's red herrings make no difference. They weren't good at this sort of thing probably because their superficial frame-ups seldom encountered a painstaking judicial examination.

You tell me if Armstrong adheres to the lengthy scenario he set forth in the article I linked. Specifically, does he believe Oswald boarded McWatters' bus?

Yes, Armstrong believes that Oswald got on that bus despite all the evidence to the contrary and years of discussion. 

We don't agree on everything while we work to make each other more aware.  Our article on the killing of Oswald and how Ruby actually got there, at his site, was a 5 month journey of discovery. https://harveyandlee.net/Oswald_Killed/Oswald_Killed.html You will learn about the history of the buildings involved, Sgt Dean, Westbrook and Croy, and the cruel manner in which Fritz delivers Oswald to his death.

Now, you keep bringing up the library as if you give it some significance.  I'll circle back - did you already explain this significance in this thread?  If not can you summarize?

From our discussions I don't recall our ever giving the library a second thought beyond the boy who was found there.

The mistake was the broadcast of 

1:16    Dispatcher    Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.  
1:19    105 (Ptm. J.M Poe and Ptm. L.E. Jez)    Was 519 E. Jefferson correct? (Siren)
1:19    Dispatcher    We have two locations; 501 East Jefferson and 501 East Tenth.
1:19    Dispatcher    Subject just passed 401 East Jefferson. 

Michael, this is WEST of 510 E Jefferson on the way to the theatre.  

Can you explain the significance of the library which occurs 15 mins later and 30 mins after Oswald was already in the theater?

ALSO, YOU SHOULD BE AWARE THAT IT WAS ALSO CB OWENS WHO SEES THE HIDELL ID IN THE WALLET AND EVEN ASKS OSWALD ABOUT THE HIDELL ID DURING ONE OF THE INTERROGATIONS.

Yu may also notice that Fritz does not ask Oswald any questions about the Tippit murder.  Or the wallet found there with the HIDELL ID.  Hmmm.

 

1:34    22 (Ptm. L.L. Hill)    They've got him holed up, it looks like, in this building over here at the corner.
1:34    22 (Ptm. L.L. Hill)    . . . where you be?
1:34    85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker)    85, library.
1:34    Dispatcher    10-4.
1:34    211 (Ptm. R. Hawkins)    211 out that location.
1:34    Dispatcher    10-4.
1:34    19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens)    19
1:34    Dispatcher    19
1:34    19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens)    We're all at the library.
1:34    Dispatcher    10-4. 223 is supposed to be there.
1:34    19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens)    We're in front of the building now.
1:34        Where is it?
1:34    Dispatcher    Marsalis and Jefferson.
1:34        What and Jefferson?
1:34    Dispatcher    Marsalis.
1:34        10-4.
1:34    221 (Ptm. H.W. Summers)    221
1:34    Dispatcher    221
1:34    221 (Ptm. H.W. Summers)    Might can give you some additional information. I got an eye-ball witness to the get-away man. That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light grey Eisenhower-type jacket, dark trousers and a white shirt, and (. . . ?). Last seen running on the north side of the street from Patton, on Jefferson, on East Jefferson. And he was apparently armed with a 32 dark-finish automatic pistol which he had in his right hand.
1:34    Dispatcher    10-4. For your information, 221, they have the suspect cornered in the library at Marsalis and Jefferson.
1:34    221 (Ptm. H.W. Summers)    10-4. This man can positively identify him if they need him.
1:34    Dispatcher    10-4. They do have the suspect under arrest now.
1:34        221, hang on to your witness.
1:34    Dispatcher    Hold on to him.
1:34    19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens)    19
1:34    Dispatcher    19
1:34    19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens)    It was the wrong man.
1:34    Dispatcher    10-4.
1:34    Dispatcher    Disregard all the information on the suspect arrested. It was the wrong man.

[Steve Thomas]

One thing that I don't think gets asked often enough, is, if Oswald did indeed walk east down Elm St. after the assassination, where was he headed?

For me, I think a clue lies in where he caught the bus.

If it was Oswald, he boarded the bus at Elm and Field, in front of the Rio Grande Bldg.  Back in 2021, I wrote a piece on the various agencies who had offices in the Rio Grande Bldg. Among them were the 112th INTC, and the INS. I think the ATTU (later known as the ATF - Frank Ellsworth) also had their offices there.i

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27429-the-bus-ride/#comment-448551

When the WC asked Will Fritz how he knew Oswald lived on Beckley, he told them that an officer, whose name he could not remember, stopped him out in the hall before he went in to interrogate Oswald for the first time, and told him so.

Now, I believe that what Fritz said was a lie, but somebody told him.

I have my own thoughts on that, but that's for another time.

However, I do think that somebody had their hooks in Oswald, and I think he was trying to make contact, and that's why he he headed east from the TSBD. If he was trying to get home, heading east would have done him no good.

Steve Thomas

 

 

[Michael Kalin]

On 12/15/2023 at 9:12 PM, David Josephs said:

1:19    Dispatcher    Subject just passed 401 East Jefferson. 

Michael, this is WEST of 510 E Jefferson on the way to the theatre.

Coincidentally, Eddie Kinsley saw someone who looked like Oswald cross Jefferson in front of the Dudley Hughes ambulance at 400 E. Jefferson who then proceeded east "heading for the library." Who was the source of the dispatcher's information?

Let's get back to the radio transcripts, providing context a few minutes earlier.

Channel one at 1:16 --
Bowley             Hello, police operator?
Dispatcher       Go ahead. Go ahead, citizen using the police radio.
Bowley             There's been a shooting out here.
Dispatcher       Where's it at?
Dispatcher       The citizen using the police radio . . .
Bowley             Tenth Street.
Dispatcher       What location on Tenth Street?
Bowley             Between Marsalis and Beckley. It's a police officer. Somebody shot him. What -- what's . . . 404 Tenth Street.
Dispatcher       Can you hear me? (Man and woman's voices in background)
Dispatcher       78
Bowley              It's a police car, number 10.
Dispatcher        78
Dispatcher (?)   78
Bowley              Got that?
Bowley              Hello, police operator. Did you get that?
Dispatcher        Attention. Signal 19, police officer, 510 E. Jefferson.
Bowley              Thank you.

Channel two at 1:18 --
Dispatcher       General Broadcast - All squads, we have a report that an officer has been involved in a shooting in the 400 E. 10th. [Last digit in 400 is almost illegible.]

Note -- the signal 19 & general broadcast are nearly simultaneous. See the intro to CE1974 regarding DPD timestamp peculiarities and lack of synchronicity.

What a cockup! How was it possible the channel one dispatcher issued a signal 19 with an erroneous location immediately after receiving the correct address which was clearly understood by the channel two dispatcher?

The sheriff dispatched his force to 510 E. Jefferson, arriving at the library long before C.T. Walker's 1:34 announcement that diverted DPD cops to the same place.

Pausing for now. The significance is obvious. It cuts to the heart of what actually happened in Oak Cliff when Tippit was murdered.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Michael Kalin
Corrected Dudley Hughes address.

[Michael Kalin]

On 12/15/2023 at 9:12 PM, David Josephs said:

Now, you keep bringing up the library as if you give it some significance.  I'll circle back - did you already explain this significance in this thread?  If not can you summarize?

William Weston's "Missing Radio Transmissions" article in the Fourth Decade (v7#4) alerted me to the sheriff's massive deployment at the library that preceded the DPD stampede.

Read the section, "It's Another Battle of the Little Big Horn." Who arrives during the commotion? McWatters and the Marsalis bus. It was in effect a belated post-abort dry run for Oswald's escape plan A. Decker's men had been primed before Tippit's murder occurred to surround the library. Curiously their presence received scant coverage in reports filed by DPD officers. Secret Service men show up in Buhk's report. Why didn't he mention the multitude of deputies & constables?

Officer Hutson told Belin, "There were several officers at the location, including some constables from the constable's office in Oak Cliff at Beckley and 12th..." [7H29], and this is where Hill waited with "a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets him." This message was intended for the constables.

The murder scene activity played out in a compact area. See CE1968 for an overview. The location of 510 E. Jefferson is speculative. Unknown if the address ever pertained to anything but a used car lot.  Perhaps someone with access to a '63 or '64 City Directory can help out with precise information.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Michael Kalin]

More details about the library incident can be found in Steve Thomas' Who were the Secret Service men at the Library? thread.

There was also the question of the "Harvey Lee Oswald" name variant which remains puzzling. I've made no headway in researching this.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Michael Kalin

[Marcus Fuller]

As far as I understand the bus transfer ticket wasn't 'found' on Oswald until his search just prior to the Helen Markham line up. The same search where they 'found' the bullets. Not sure what number search that was though, maybe the 3rd? 

One thing I've always wanted to know though regarding his shirt. When he changed at his rooming house, did he just swap his shirt and not put on a jacket? I'm wondering if his landlady saw him put the shirt on and thought it was a zip up jacket. That's one of the things that is supposed to tie him to the Tippit shooting if I understand correctly

[David Josephs]

36 minutes ago, Marcus Fuller said:

As far as I understand the bus transfer ticket wasn't 'found' on Oswald until his search just prior to the Helen Markham line up. The same search where they 'found' the bullets. Not sure what number search that was though, maybe the 3rd? 

One thing I've always wanted to know though regarding his shirt. When he changed at his rooming house, did he just swap his shirt and not put on a jacket? I'm wondering if his landlady saw him put the shirt on and thought it was a zip up jacket. That's one of the things that is supposed to tie him to the Tippit shooting if I understand correctly

I will have to use your wonderful question to further illustrate why I feel he was never on the bus.  We must also remember that not one of Oswald's items of clothing was the size of this jacket.  They never had him try it on, and no one corroborates that it was his jacket, ever.

Mr. WHALEY. I thank that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me in the cab.
Mr. BALL. Look something like it?
And here is Commission Exhibit No. 163, does this look like anything he had on?
Mr. WHALEY. He had this one on or the other one.
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mr. WHALEY. That is what I told you I noticed. I told you about the shirt being open, he had on the two jackets with the open shirt.
Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, we have got the shirt which you have identified as the rust brown shirt with the gold stripe in it.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You said that a jacket--
Mr. WHALEY. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir.
Mr. BALL. This is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket.
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

This is the jacket claimed to have been found after the fact in the TSBD lunchroom.  Neat trick huh?

 

Having changed clothes, he stowed the "work" clothes in the bottom drawer of the dresser in his room.  Turner Ex 1 below... after all the clothes then other inventory found... the button-down work shirt and faded grey pants are listed.   CE151 is the button-down shirt he wore to work, and not the shirt he was wearing when he fought and had the buttons torn off WCR Ex below CE 150

Also note that of the 455 items returned by the FBI, for some reason they stopped numbering them before this shirt, despite CE151 having FBI's initials on it

 

 

 

 

Mr. BALL - Now, what color shirt did he have on?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - He had a brown shirt.
Mr. BALL - And unraveled?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Hole in his sleeve right here [indicating].
Mr. BALL - Which is the elbow of the sleeve? That is, you pointed to the elbow?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, it is.
Mr. BALL - And that would be which elbow, right or left elbow?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did he have anything on. Was the shirt open or was it buttoned?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; all the buttons torn off.
Mr. BALL - What did he have on underneath that?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I don't know.
Mr. BALL - Do you know the color of any undershirt he had on?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No.
Mr. BALL - Notice the color of his pants?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes, they were gray, and they were all ragged in here [indicating].

 

 

 

 

[Donald Willis]

On 12/15/2023 at 10:37 AM, Michael Kalin said:

Red herrings notwithstanding, Oswald boarded the Marsalis bus driven by McWatters. See Armstrong's article at Harvey&Lee.

I disagree with the proposed plan that "[Oswald] would deboard the bus across the street from the GLOCO Station, be picked up by a Dallas Police officer (J. D. Tippit, who was in the GLOCO parking lot), and driven to the Texas Theater." My take is Oswald's primary destination was the library which is why he took the Marsalis bus. Tippit lay in wait at GLOCO to intercept it.

The alternate destination was the theater. Mentzel waited nearby at Luby's Cafeteria. Both got itchy and called their handlers almost simultaneously from locations one block apart. For unknown reasons Tippit's fate was sealed while Mentzel was dispatched to a car accident. Also unknown is why Oswald jumped the Marsalis bus and headed for the alternate destination. Perhaps the blond woman who boarded the bus simultaneously aroused his suspicion.

For identification purposes two potential destinations required the two torn bills that were found on Oswald.

The sheriff's massive deployment of manpower at the library is often overlooked, but this is a critical item. Among other things it explains why Hill eventually radioed in from the substation at 12th & Beckley.

 

 

I love the subterfuge surrounding Hill's 12th & Beckley call.  His testimony eliminates--or was supposed to--Hill as the one who made that call.  Other names were pasted on the entry for that call on Henslee's transcription.  Hill was the main subterfuger.   Instead of admitting that he went to 12th & B and made the 1:26 call, he testifies that he went directly from the Tippit scene to the Texaco station, with a blow-by-blow account of each twist & turn he took to get there.  This stunningly elaborate evasion means that the identity of his 1:26 witness was Top Secret.  Subsequent DPD transcriptions--as well as Myers' book--rightfully restore the message to Hill.  But the ID of his witness remained Top Secret.  Myers pegs him as Harold Russell, but there's nothing controversial, let alone Top Secret about invoking Russell here.  I myself auditioned Scoggins, then Benavides, for the role of Hill's witness.  But such a revelation still wouldn't account for Hill's almost comical topographical gyrations.  It wasn't until I had eliminated the Texaco "witnesses" as witnesses--Reynolds, Patterson, & the Brocks--based on the WFAA-TV footage which turned up re Reynolds directing the cops to the old house rather than to the parking lot--that I started to zero in on the Brocks, or one of them, as Hill's secret  informant.  Officer Walker's 1:22 transmission sealed the deal.  He had a witness who saw the suspect pass the station and head down the next, 300 block of Jefferson, towards Beckley.  That narrowed it down.  The witness would not have been either Reynolds or Patterson, who arrived at the station area together and were pointing to the old house.  A suspect running down the 300 block from the Texaco area...  That would have to have been a report from one of the Brocks.  And that would account for the extraordinary lengths to which Hill went to cover up his & Walker's witness--the Brocks were, in effect, the gatekeepers of the parking-lot-jacket story.