Vickie Adams Interview

[Roger Odisio]

10 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Roger:

If you turn to Sylvia Meagher's book, on page 72 you will see that there is no dichotomy.

The key point is the timing.

"After the last shot, she and Sandra Styles immediately ran down the back stairs to the first floor, where she saw Lovelady and Shelley standing near the elevator."

As Meagher so acutely points out the problem is the whole rigamarole the Commission tried to insert about the dynamic duo running over to the tracks first.  As Sylvia shows , this was obviously inserted later, and she proves how and why. (p. 73)

The dichotomy is between what Adams said in 1966 plus what Meagher wrote (which I had not seen)--that Adams and Styles saw Shelley and Lovelady when they reached the first floor--and what Ernest wrote that both Adams and Styles told him about 40 years later--they didn't see S&L on the first floor.

Yes the WR claim is a key that S&L did not get back to the building for several minutes,which  allowed the WR to claim Adams' timing was mistaken and dismiss her (always their goal).

If you believe Garner, you have a choice as to which bit of chicanery was used by the WR to discredit Adams:  (1) Adams' statement of seeing S&L (which she never said) was added to her testimony to show she came down the steps after Oswald, or (2) Adams did say she saw S&L but the sighting  must have been later than she claimed because S&L weren't there yet when she said she arrived.

This afternoon I posted a message on Barry Ernest's facebook page drawing his attention to the 1966 statement by Adams.  Mysteriously the first part of the message has already disappeared.  I hope he responds.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

3 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

Uhoh.  The main point of Barry Ernest's The Girl On the Stairs is that Adams and Styles did *not* see Shelley and Lovelady when she and Styles reached the first floor.  S&L weren't there yet. Adams indicated to Ernest that the passage in her testimony about seeing them did not even sound like her.  Notice how she often inserted "sir" in her answers. There was no "sir" in that passage.

 

Thus, the WC presumably inserted her saying she saw S&L in order to discredit the timing of her descent. by claiming she came down a couple of minutes after Oswald. Not interviewing Styles and the women's supervisor, Dorothy Garner, who would have corroborated Adams' timing  made it easier for WC staff to discredit her..

 

Typewritten testimony was easy to change but not the stenotype of the interview.  So  Ernest contacted NARA to get the stenotypes.  They are missing, he was told, and so were the stenotypes of the testimony of S&L, who were interviewed the same day as Adams.  Surely that implies there was something to hide.  

 

Several months ago Greg Parker expressed skepticism about Ernest's telling of Adams' story.  He said Sean Murphy had been skeptical too and Murphy had talked to Adams several times about her story, including Styles' initial reluctance to go along with it.  I'm not sure how those conversations ended. My conversation with Parker pretty much ended when I pointed out the stenotypes of the three testimonies had gone missing.    

 

Several months ago Pat Speer and I went round and round on the question of Oswald and the steps.  I believe Oswald was not on the 6th floor and did not come down the steps. Pat pretty much agrees.  He thinks Adams and Styles *did* come down the steps

when they said

and didn't see or hear Oswald, but reaches his conclusion for a different reason.  They did see S&L,  he says, because those two lied about how soon they returned to the first floor after the murder.  The central lie Pat sees in all of this was the timing of S&L to the first floor claimed by the WR.

 

Now comes Adams, almost 40 years before talking to Ernest, saying she *did* see S&L on the first floor. 

Casually, at the end of the segment. Lane and Sahl obviously did not understand the significance of what Adams said.

 

How important is this discrepancy?

 

For me, of the women on the 4th floor, Dorothy Garner has always been the more important witness. She stayed behind on the 4th floor while Adams and Styles went down the steps. She corroborated Adams estimate of the timing of their descent.

 

More importantly she was still on the 4th floor when Truly and a cop, presumably Baker, reached there. *Without seeing or hearing Oswald*. This is besides the fact that the WR made no attempt to explain how Oswald came down those steps without anyone on the intervening floors saying they saw him.  Garner's account is devastating.

 

Which, knowing what Garner would say, is why she was not asked to testify.

 

So what to make of this latest surfacing of an Adams interview?  Does anyone have a line to Ernest?  I wonder what he thinks.

 

One thing is clear.  Without Adams' testimony there is still ample evidence to establish Oswald did not come down those stairs as the WR claimed.

 

 

I see 2 mistakes.

U cant say .... when they said.... koz, Adams & Styles did not agree. Styles said that they did not leave the window at an early time. And, Styles said that they firstly went to the elevator, & then went to the stairs.

Nextly, u are wrong re your reference to S&L. There is no such wording (by Adams)(by anyone) in the recording.  Adams did mention 2 gentlemen outside the building, not inside.

[James DiEugenio]

Roger:

To me, the main points are:

1.) The Commission refused to do a reconstruction, even though she wanted to do so.

Why? I can see no benign reasons not to do so.  I can think of a malignant one.

2.) Refusing to do that reconstruction, they then appear to have suborned Lovelady and Shelly in order to disguise the timing.

To any practicing DA, these indicate what is called "Consciousness of guilt".  

They knew what would happen if they did the recreation.  So they then resorted to number two.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

11 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Interesting about the self-closing heavy doors that are heard easily on the stairway.

Sort of. (@ 27:30 in recording). I make 3 points.

1. The door duznt make much noise.

2. Oswald is well ahead of Adams & Styles. He skips around from doorway to doorway on the 4th floor well before Adams & Styles get anywhere near the stairs, possibly even before Adams & Styles enter the 4th floor storage area.

3. Adams & Styles klomp along in a hurry along the 4th floor storage area as they approach the stairs on the 4th floor, & then they klomp down the stairs. Hence they would not hear a door (doors) shutting, probly not even if slamming shut. I think that there might have been 1 door at each level (5 in all from 6th to 1st floor), not 2 doors on each level (not important), & that thems 1 door(s) might have been jammed open (not important).

Edited December 30, 2023 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[James DiEugenio]

And BTW, I did not know about those heavy doors.

Boy is that interesting.

So in addition to the old fashioned, rickety, bare, hammer and nail wooden steps, there were these doors?

And they still did not hear him?

Whew.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

3 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Roger:

To me, the main points are:

1.) The Commission refused to do a reconstruction, even though she wanted to do so.

Why, I can see no benign reasons not to do so.  I can think of a malignant one.

2.) Refusing to do that reconstruction, they then appear to have suborned Lovelady and Shelly in order to disguise the timing.

To any practicing DA, these indicate what is called "Consciousness of guilt".  

They knew what would happen if they did the recreation.  So they then resorted to number two.

 

If Adams & Styles took off from the window immediately then i suppose that they would have bumped into Oswald near or on the stairs on the 4th floor.

Oswald had to go down 2 sets of stairs from 6th to 4th floor.

Adams & Styles had to exit their office area throo a door.

Yes they probly would have bumped into each other. But that did not happen.

So, who got there first?  Was it Team-O, or was it Team-A&S?

The only possible answer is Team-O.

 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

7 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

And BTW, I did not know about those heavy doors.

Boy is that interesting.

So in addition to the old fashioned, rickety, bare, hammer and nail wooden steps, there were these doors?

And they still did not hear him?

Whew.

See my comment.........

Sort of. (@ 27:30 in recording). I make 3 points.

1. The door duznt make much noise.

2. Oswald is well ahead of Adams & Styles. He skips around from doorway to doorway on the 4th floor well before Adams & Styles get anywhere near the stairs, possibly even before Adams & Styles enter the 4th floor storage area.

3. Adams & Styles klomp along in a hurry along the 4th floor storage area as they approach the stairs on the 4th floor, & then they klomp down the stairs. Hence they would not hear a door shutting, probly not even if slamming shut.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Oswald fires his shot-1 at pseudo Z105, the slug ricochets off a guy-rod of the overhead signal arm, the slug puts a hole in the floor of the limo, the fine lead splatter hits jfk on the back of his head, & jfk utters my god i have been hit.

Oswald fires his shot-2 at Z218, the magic bullet.

Oswald stands up & back from the window, he duznt fire his last bullet.

Oswald sees that Hickey accidentally fires an auto-burst of his AR15 at Z300 to Z312, hitting jfk in the head.

Oswald takes off.

Oswald gets to the 2nd floor after 48 sec.

Oswald just missed seeing Hines walking along the corridor near the lunch room & entering the office door from the corridor at about 46 seconds.

Oswald stops.  What to do next?

Should he continue down to the first floor?

Should he go to the first floor via the front stairs?

Should he lay low in the lunch room?

His jacket is in the Domino Room.

Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs in a real hurry on a mission.

Best to visit the coke machine & hope that whoever it is goes clean past.

They pass. He comes back out. What to do next?

He can't decide.  He will be less conspicuous if he takes the front stairs, but he would then have to walk back into & throo the storage area to get his jacket in the Domino Room.

He decides to continue down the back stairs.

He makes a start but then Truly hollers up the elevator shaft, so he goes back up.

Then he hears Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs, & he retreats to the coke machine a second time.

He walks slow & cool.

He would have been better off diving into the lunchroom in a hurry, & laying low, he knows there is no-one in there, but he knows that if seen rushing (by Truly & Co) it will be a sure sign that he is guilty of something.

He nearly makes it, another couple of slow steps & he will be out of sight.

But damn, Baker spots a bit of him throo the glass of the door & says to come back.

Truly says that Oswald works here, & Baker & Truly gallop off.

They get to the 5th floor & take the east elevator to the 7th floor.

Oswald gets a coke to look less guilty & more cool if confronted again.  And assassinations go better with coke.

The back stairs are now dangerous.  He heads for the front stairs, either forgetting about his jacket or deciding that his jacket is a dead duck.

But just in case more dumb cops are entering along the corridor he goes via the office.

Damn, he meets Jeraldean Reid as she returns to her desk.  Mrs Hine is also in the office but she doesn't notice Oswald, or forgets.

Reid in 3 re-enactments took exactly 120 sec to get to her desk, which is about right (ie to meet Oswald).

She says something as they pass & he mumbles something back.  Its not a good look.  He has no business in the office, unless wanting change for the coke machine. Its not even a short cut to the stairs. Damn.  Anyhow no big deal.

He goes down the front stairs & mixes with the growing throng in the lobby near the front door without raising any suspicion.

Someone asks him about a phone.

Ok, things aint so bad, praps he can take a chance & get his jacket from the Domino Room anyhow.

Hmmm – he can get his jacket by going out the front door & down the steps & around & entering via the Houston dock (like he does each morning), & walking 16 paces to the jacket.

Getting caught walking in shouldn’t result in getting bitten by a cop.

So, off he goes, but he gets a little ways up Houston & he sees Officer Barnett on sentry duty at the dock, & Barnett looks vicious.

So, a quick U-turn & back down Houston.  Buell Frazier sees him walking south along Houston.

No, the jacket is a dead duck.  He decides to get out of there asap, he crosses Houston & then crosses Elm.

Tippit is waiting.

[Roger Odisio]

42 minutes ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

I see 2 mistakes.

U cant say .... when they said.... koz, Adams & Styles did not agree. Styles said that they did not leave the window at an early time. And, Styles said that they firstly went to the elevator, & then went to the stairs.

Nextly, u are wrong re your reference to S&L. There is no such wording (by Adams)(by anyone) in the recording.  Adams did mention 2 gentlemen outside the building, not inside.

Styles initially wasn't sure that she and Adams left right away after the shots. But after discussion she deferred to Adams, according to Ernest.  Garner corroborated Adams's sense of timing.

Listen again at 41:27.   Referring to Lovelady Adams says, "he had just seen me on the first floor before I left the building".

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

40 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Styles initially wasn't sure that she and Adams left right away after the shots. But after discussion she deferred to Adams, according to Ernest.  Garner corroborated Adams's sense of timing.

Listen again at 41:27.   Referring to Lovelady Adams says, "he had just seen me on the first floor before I left the building".

She might have deferred to Adams, but that duznt change the fact that she contradicted Adams.

Garner did not corroborate Adams.

Adams did not mean that he (Lovelady) had just seen Adams, she meant that he had claimed to have just seen her. And the times & timings relate to his claim, not to reality.

Wait, i had another listen..........  At 40:38  Adams did say that...... "i  did see them by the elevator"......

Yes this is amazing. Praps as u said in an earlier posting of yours,,, that praps Adams was referring to seeing S&L at a later time (near the elevator).

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Roger Odisio]

3 minutes ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

She might have deferred to Adams, but that duznt change the fact that she contradicted Adams.

Garner did not corroborate Adams.

Adams did not mean that he (Lovelady) had just seen Adams, she meant that he had claimed to have just seen her. And the times & timings relate to his claim, not to reality.

Adams was sure about the timing. Styles wasn't. She ultimately deferred to Adams 

From the Girl on the Stairs p.267.  "Did Miss Adams and Miss Styles leave the window right away? I asked her [Garner].  The girls did, she responded. I remember them being there and the next thing I knew, they were gone. They had left 'very quickly...within a matter of moments', she added."

Not true.  Before the passage I referenced, Adams referred to Lovelady's answer when asked if he had seen her.  He said he had seen someone, but wasn't sure it was Adams.  So Adams was making a declaratory statement that Lovelady had seen her.

That means the falsehood the WR used to discredit Adams was that S&L weren't back to the first floor when Adams claimed she arrived there.

[David Von Pein]

From a 2011 discussion (which includes participation by Barry Ernest; see link below).....

DAVID V.P. SAID:

With respect to Vickie Adams, the ONLY thing a person needs to accept in order to have Oswald on the back stairs within one to two minutes after the President's assassination is to accept the almost certain fact that Victoria Adams was simply inaccurate in her time estimate about when she and Sandra Styles were on the back staircase.

And if she's off by a mere ONE MINUTE, or even less, then her whole story unravels and it then becomes quite easy to accept the fact that Oswald used the back stairs just after shooting President Kennedy from the sixth floor.

The key to pretty much knowing without a doubt that Adams and Styles were on the stairs only AFTER Lee Oswald used the same stairs is not really Oswald himself--but Roy Truly and Marrion Baker.

Because if Adams was really on the stairs as early as she said she was, she would have had virtually no choice but to have seen (or heard) the two men who we know for a fact WERE on those stairs within about 60 to 75 seconds of the assassination -- Truly and Baker.

Since Adams saw nobody and heard nobody, the very likely solution is that she was mistaken about her timing (which couldn't be a more common error with human beings), and she was on the stairs AFTER all three men (Oswald, Baker, and Truly) had already utilized the same stairs.

David Von Pein
February 14, 2011

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

48 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Adams was sure about the timing. Styles wasn't. She ultimately deferred to Adams 

From the Girl on the Stairs p.267.  "Did Miss Adams and Miss Styles leave the window right away? I asked her [Garner].  The girls did, she responded. I remember them being there and the next thing I knew, they were gone. They had left 'very quickly...within a matter of moments', she added."

Not true.  Before the passage I referenced, Adams referred to Lovelady's answer when asked if he had seen her.  He said he had seen someone, but wasn't sure it was Adams.  So Adams was making a declaratory statement that Lovelady had seen her.

That means the falsehood the WR used to discredit Adams was that S&L weren't back to the first floor when Adams claimed she arrived there.

I have added to my earlier reply to u.

Dont forget that Styles said that they went to the elevator first (ie the office elevator).

I agree that the WC lied. But i dont agree that Adams was agreeing with Lovelady, or at least declaring that Lovelady had indeed seen Adams.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

From a 2011 discussion (which includes participation by Barry Ernest; see link below).....

DAVID V.P. SAID:

With respect to Vickie Adams, the ONLY thing a person needs to accept in order to have Oswald on the back stairs within one to two minutes after the President's assassination is to accept the almost certain fact that Victoria Adams was simply inaccurate in her time estimate about when she and Sandra Styles were on the back staircase.

And if she's off by a mere ONE MINUTE, or even less, then her whole story unravels and it then becomes quite easy to accept the fact that Oswald used the back stairs just after shooting President Kennedy from the sixth floor.

The key to pretty much knowing without a doubt that Adams and Styles were on the stairs only AFTER Lee Oswald used the same stairs is not really Oswald himself--but Roy Truly and Marrion Baker.

Because if Adams was really on the stairs as early as she said she was, she would have had virtually no choice but to have seen (or heard) the two men who we know for a fact WERE on those stairs within about 60 to 75 seconds of the assassination -- Truly and Baker.

Since Adams saw nobody and heard nobody, the very likely solution is that she was mistaken about her timing (which couldn't be a more common error with human beings), and she was on the stairs AFTER all three men (Oswald, Baker, and Truly) had already utilized the same stairs.

David Von Pein
February 14, 2011

Nope, read my earlier comment.

Oswald fires his shot-1 at pseudo Z105, the slug ricochets off a guy-rod of the overhead signal arm, the slug puts a hole in the floor of the limo, the fine lead splatter hits jfk on the back of his head, & jfk utters my god i have been hit.

Oswald fires his shot-2 at Z218, the magic bullet.

Oswald stands up & back from the window, he duznt fire his last bullet.

Oswald sees that Hickey accidentally fires an auto-burst of his AR15 at Z300 to Z312, hitting jfk in the head.

Oswald takes off.

Oswald gets to the 2nd floor after 48 sec.

Oswald just missed seeing Hines walking along the corridor near the lunch room & entering the office door from the corridor at about 46 seconds.

Oswald stops.  What to do next?

Should he continue down to the first floor?

Should he go to the first floor via the front stairs?

Should he lay low in the lunch room?

His jacket is in the Domino Room.

Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs in a real hurry on a mission.

Best to visit the coke machine & hope that whoever it is goes clean past.

They pass. He comes back out. What to do next?

He can't decide.  He will be less conspicuous if he takes the front stairs, but he would then have to walk back into & throo the storage area to get his jacket in the Domino Room.

He decides to continue down the back stairs.

He makes a start but then Truly hollers up the elevator shaft, so he goes back up.

Then he hears Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs, & he retreats to the coke machine a second time.

He walks slow & cool.

He would have been better off diving into the lunchroom in a hurry, & laying low, he knows there is no-one in there, but he knows that if seen rushing (by Truly & Co) it will be a sure sign that he is guilty of something.

He nearly makes it, another couple of slow steps & he will be out of sight.

But damn, Baker spots a bit of him throo the glass of the door & says to come back.

Truly says that Oswald works here, & Baker & Truly gallop off.

They get to the 5th floor & take the east elevator to the 7th floor.

Oswald gets a coke to look less guilty & more cool if confronted again.  And assassinations go better with coke.

The back stairs are now dangerous.  He heads for the front stairs, either forgetting about his jacket or deciding that his jacket is a dead duck.

But just in case more dumb cops are entering along the corridor he goes via the office.

Damn, he meets Jeraldean Reid as she returns to her desk.  Mrs Hine is also in the office but she doesn't notice Oswald, or forgets.

Reid in 3 re-enactments took exactly 120 sec to get to her desk, which is about right (ie to meet Oswald).

She says something as they pass & he mumbles something back.  Its not a good look.  He has no business in the office, unless wanting change for the coke machine. Its not even a short cut to the stairs. Damn.  Anyhow no big deal.

He goes down the front stairs & mixes with the growing throng in the lobby near the front door without raising any suspicion.

Someone asks him about a phone.

Ok, things aint so bad, praps he can take a chance & get his jacket from the Domino Room anyhow.

Hmmm – he can get his jacket by going out the front door & down the steps & around & entering via the Houston dock (like he does each morning), & walking 16 paces to the jacket.

Getting caught walking in shouldn’t result in getting bitten by a cop.

So, off he goes, but he gets a little ways up Houston & he sees Officer Barnett on sentry duty at the dock, & Barnett looks vicious.

So, a quick U-turn & back down Houston.  Buell Frazier sees him walking south along Houston.

No, the jacket is a dead duck.  He decides to get out of there asap, he crosses Houston & then crosses Elm.

Tippit is waiting.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

48 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

From a 2011 discussion (which includes participation by Barry Ernest; see link below).....

DAVID V.P. SAID:

With respect to Vickie Adams, the ONLY thing a person needs to accept in order to have Oswald on the back stairs within one to two minutes after the President's assassination is to accept the almost certain fact that Victoria Adams was simply inaccurate in her time estimate about when she and Sandra Styles were on the back staircase.

And if she's off by a mere ONE MINUTE, or even less, then her whole story unravels and it then becomes quite easy to accept the fact that Oswald used the back stairs just after shooting President Kennedy from the sixth floor.

The key to pretty much knowing without a doubt that Adams and Styles were on the stairs only AFTER Lee Oswald used the same stairs is not really Oswald himself--but Roy Truly and Marrion Baker.

Because if Adams was really on the stairs as early as she said she was, she would have had virtually no choice but to have seen (or heard) the two men who we know for a fact WERE on those stairs within about 60 to 75 seconds of the assassination -- Truly and Baker.

Since Adams saw nobody and heard nobody, the very likely solution is that she was mistaken about her timing (which couldn't be a more common error with human beings), and she was on the stairs AFTER all three men (Oswald, Baker, and Truly) had already utilized the same stairs.

David Von Pein
February 14, 2011

David u are clearly wrong. If Adams was on the stairs after all 3 men had already used the stairs then Garner would not have seen Baker & Truly on the 4th floor.