Vickie Adams Interview

[Andrej Stancak]

12 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

RO:  Fascinating stuff, Andrej.  What do you make of Garner's further story that she was still in a position near the steps on the 4th floor to see or hear Oswald descending the steps, when Truly and a cop reached the 4th floor. *After* they supposedly encountered Oswald on the 2nd floor.  Garner said she neither saw nor heard Oswald while she was there.

 

That claim first appeared in the Martha Joe Stroud June 2 letter to J. Lee Rankin that was not only not followed up by Belin, at least officially, but was buried until Ernest uncovered it. You can bet Belin looked into it, if he did not already know what Garner had said.

 

To me that has always been the crucial fact that blows up the whole Oswald story. Regardless of what lie the WC used to discredit Adams, or Adams' veracity.

 

Are you still in touch with Ernest?  I posted a message on his facebook page asking for his comment on Adams' '66 TV interview, but so far it only has attracted a couple of rants from Brian Doyle.

 

Does Ernest still use that page?  Can you ask him for his reaction to the TV interview? How it contradicts what he wrote that Adams told him many years later? He obviously knew about it.  He mentioned it twice in his book.  There is also the loose end of Styles emphatically saying in the book that she didn't see S&L on the first floor either. 

 

AS:  However, I am not disputing a part of Baker's and Truly's encounter with Lee Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, albeit in a different scenario. In my view, Lee Oswald went to the 2nd floor from the first floor via the front stairwell once he realised Kennedy has been shot. However, this is for a different thread.

 

RO:  This was the scenario advanced here a while back by Greg Doudna. After the murder, when Oswald was on the first floor or the front steps, he went up the stairs to the 2nd floor on his way out the back entrance when he encountered Truly and Baker.

 

The importance of this is, if true, it is another way to establish that Oswald did not come *down* the steps from the 6th floor when he encountered Truly and Baker. It's another way to do this, besides the Darnell and Wiegman films. It is consistent with Garner's story of seeing Truly and Baker coming up the stairs but not Oswald going down. It is consistent with Oswald's alibi.

 

 

Roger:

I am familiar and agree with your account on Dorothy Garner and the Stroud document.

I did not have any email exchange with Barry for about a year or so which is related to the lack of time for JFK research over past two years. I retired from my job couple of months ago and hope to revive my JFK research in due time, which includes the modelling of movements of important players across the TSBD in moments following the final shot. 

I also wrote to Barry to let him know about the Mort Sahl interview in case he did not register it.

As far as who first proposed the scenario of Lee Oswald as Prayer Man walking up the front stairwell to reach the 2nd floor lunchroom, I remember Greg took it from me just one day I posted it. It is not that important but I will send you a private message for you to see. However, I was not the one who invented this scenario. It has been discussed right at the start of the original Prayer Man thread ("Oswald leaving TSBD?"), around page 7 of that thread. Sean Murphy fleetingly touched upon this possibility and considered it tight from the timing perspective. It is this "tight" that requires further exploration. There is no realistic chance to reenact different scenarios in the Depository building any longer, and therefore what remains is a computer reconstruction with parametrically adjusted velocities and pauses in movements of individual people. I started this work during the Covid-19 lockdown periods but eventually was unable to complete due to so much load brought about by the new style of teaching at my University.

There is one more catch in Vicki Adams story: if no one has used the stairs or any of the lifts to descend from the sixth floor right after the shooting, how comes that a rifle and spent cartridges were found on the sixth floor? This branch of JFKA case took the most of my time and efforts since I embarked on JFKA research in 2015 with results not strong enough, in my view, to be publicised. 

 

 

 

 

[Greg Doudna]

That is correct, Andrej Stancak suggested the possibility that an Oswald on the first floor (as Prayer Man) could have gone up to the second floor by the SE stairs and across the second floor to the NW rear stairs attempting a surreptitious exit there, but was stopped by the Baker encounter in the second floor lunchroom, and a good suggestion that is. In the reconstruction I developed (building upon Stancak's suggestion) I was also strongly influenced by William Kelly's discussion of the NW pneumatic door detail and how Baker spotted Oswald about to exit out into the NW stairway but turning back (Oswald did not go through the NW door after having come down the NW stairs). And Kelly got that from the earlier Howard Roffman, and everyone concerned is arguing from primary data and testimony, attempting to interpret rightly, whether correctly or mistakenly as the case may be.  

I have been following the Vicki Adams discussion with interest, and last night rechecked Barry Ernest's book again on this. It is puzzling, but my best guess is that Vicki and Sandra must have gone down after Truly and Baker came up; that nobody went down those rickety, noisy NW stairs before Vicki and Sandra; that Oswald probably did not come down from the 6th floor after the shots at all; and that the assassins, who may have fired another weapon than Oswald's rifle even though it was Oswald's rifle found there, either came down by means of an elevator or by remaining there and mixing with law enforcement indistinguishably and exiting in that way, one or the other. I do not know what Oswald was carrying that morning or why he would lie to Buell Frazier about what was in it, but I believe Frazier that the package was too short to have contained a broken-down rifle that would then be assembled and fired accurately that day without sighting-in. I think the palm print of Oswald Day said was on the rifle stock may have been genuine (against FBI agent Drain) but as Day said, that was an "old" print, not recent. And the rifle itself was Oswald's but what the Bugliosis and David von Peins, following the Warren Commission, and CTs too, have missed is that Oswald prepared that rifle for a conveyance on Nov 11 and there is no hard certainty or verification where or in whose custody that rifle was between Nov 11 and when it was found on the 6th floor TSBD on Nov 22 (I think I have shown that at https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Irving-Sport-Shop-109-pdf.pdf), overlooked foundation for reasonable doubt.

And again the reasons Oswald was not the sole shooter from the 6th floor, even though his rifle was found there, and if he was not the sole shooter that dramatically weakens the case that he was any shooter: the lack of taking the shot when JFK was on Houston; the NAA results of the paraffin cheek test showing lack of gunshot residue on his face; the absence of reported find of gunshot residue on clothing; the huge number of witnesses who heard the final two shots close together inconsistent with a single shooter from a bolt-action rifle; the lack of professional expertise of Oswald as a shooter or assassin inconsistent with a professional assassination; Pat Speer's analysis on the earwitnesses' perception of location origin of the shots fired; the smell of gunsmoke by witnesses near the limousine with the wind direction excluding that coming from the sixth floor TSBD; the lack of ammunition or rifle cleaning supplies in his possessions; the absence of any credible practice shooting in the runup to the assassination; the lack of any known writing or plans or credible threat or motive for Oswald who liked JFK to have assassinated JFK; and finally the possibility that Prayer Man was Oswald.

It is however easier to argue Oswald did not shoot Kennedy than to know or show who did. The wedding ring business, the package Friday morning, the lying of Oswald under interrogation... those I do not understand. That Oswald fled evasively after the assassination, changed clothing and picked up a revolver to carry not normally carried, indicates minimally he was personally scared. I believe Oswald was innocent of the Tippit killing and that Oswald headed from his rooming house to the Texas Theatre for a scheduled meeting in that theater. However a critical question and unknown is was that meeting, planned for a time that afternoon, prompted by a phone call from Oswald from a pay phone before or after the assassination calling for that meeting.

In a separate discussion with David von Pein I went into the money found on Oswald's person after his arrest. I believe it is very credible that the ca $180 cash with Marina in Marina's room was not unusual but represented normal banking practice of Oswald's earnings for a couple who did not use bank accounts and for a breadwinner Oswald who was paid in cash (TSBD): he would give Marina all of his earnings (cash) to keep safely at the Ruth Paine house and keep only ca. $15 in his pocket enough for spending money until he would see her next and replenish, something like that, safer than Oswald carrying large amounts of cash on his person or stashed in an insecure room at his rooming house. The point: the $13.87 Oswald had on him at his arrest on Fri Nov 22 does not reflect a known intent to flee Dallas, anything other than usual living in Oak Cliff and Dallas as before. It is looking to me like Oswald was fully unwitting of an assassination being planned and was framed and blindsided. No fully satisfactory solution to who killed Kennedy (in the sense of other than LHO alone) has come forth in the years since (or if one has it has not succeeded in convincing most other investigators, always not a good sign for any proposed solution), but that is not as unusual as it sounds given that a large number of crimes in history are not solved above the level of unsubstantiated suspicion.  

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

That is correct, Andrej Stancak suggested the possibility that an Oswald on the first floor (as Prayer Man) could have gone up to the second floor by the SE stairs and across the second floor to the NW rear stairs attempting a surreptitious exit there, but was stopped by the Baker encounter in the second floor lunchroom, and a good suggestion that is. In the reconstruction I developed (building upon Stancak's suggestion) I was also strongly influenced by William Kelly's discussion of the NW pneumatic door detail and how Baker spotted Oswald about to exit out into the NW stairway but turning back (Oswald did not go through the NW door after having come down the NW stairs). And Kelly got that from the earlier Howard Roffman, and everyone concerned is arguing from primary data and testimony, attempting to interpret rightly, whether correctly or mistakenly as the case may be.  

I have been following the Vicki Adams discussion with interest, and last night rechecked Barry Ernest's book again on this. It is puzzling, but my best guess is that Vicki and Sandra must have gone down after Truly and Baker came up; that nobody went down those rickety, noisy NW stairs before Vicki and Sandra; that Oswald probably did not come down from the 6th floor after the shots at all; and that the assassins, who may have fired another weapon than Oswald's rifle even though it was Oswald's rifle found there, either came down by means of an elevator or by remaining there and mixing with law enforcement indistinguishably and exiting in that way, one or the other. I do not know what Oswald was carrying that morning or why he would lie to Buell Frazier about what was in it, but I believe Frazier that the package was too short to have contained a broken-down rifle that would then be assembled and fired accurately that day without sighting-in. I think the palm print of Oswald Day said was on the rifle stock may have been genuine (against FBI agent Drain) but as Day said, that was an "old" print, not recent. And the rifle itself was Oswald's but what the Bugliosis and David von Peins, following the Warren Commission, and CTs too, have missed is that Oswald prepared that rifle for a conveyance on Nov 11 and there is no hard certainty or verification where or in whose custody that rifle was between Nov 11 and when it was found on the 6th floor TSBD on Nov 22 (I think I have shown that at https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Irving-Sport-Shop-109-pdf.pdf), overlooked foundation for reasonable doubt.

And again the reasons Oswald was not the sole shooter from the 6th floor, even though his rifle was found there, and if he was not the sole shooter that dramatically weakens the case that he was any shooter: the lack of taking the shot when JFK was on Houston; the NAA results of the paraffin cheek test showing lack of gunshot residue on his face; the absence of reported find of gunshot residue on clothing; the huge number of witnesses who heard the final two shots close together inconsistent with a single shooter from a bolt-action rifle; the lack of professional expertise of Oswald as a shooter or assassin inconsistent with a professional assassination; Pat Speer's analysis on the earwitnesses' perception of location origin of the shots fired; the smell of gunsmoke by witnesses near the limousine with the wind direction excluding that coming from the sixth floor TSBD; the lack of ammunition or rifle cleaning supplies in his possessions; the absence of any credible practice shooting in the runup to the assassination; the lack of any known writing or plans or credible threat or motive for Oswald who liked JFK to have assassinated JFK; and finally the possibility that Prayer Man was Oswald.

It is however easier to argue Oswald did not shoot Kennedy than to know or show who did. The wedding ring business, the package Friday morning, the lying of Oswald under interrogation... those I do not understand. That Oswald fled evasively after the assassination, changed clothing and picked up a revolver to carry not normally carried, indicates minimally he was personally scared. I believe Oswald was innocent of the Tippit killing and that Oswald headed from his rooming house to the Texas Theatre for a scheduled meeting in that theater. However a critical question and unknown is was that meeting, planned for a time that afternoon, prompted by a phone call from Oswald from a pay phone before or after the assassination calling for that meeting.

In a separate discussion with David von Pein I went into the money found on Oswald's person after his arrest. I believe it is very credible that the ca $180 cash with Marina in Marina's room was not unusual but represented normal banking practice of Oswald's earnings for a couple who did not use bank accounts and for a breadwinner Oswald who was paid in cash (TSBD): he would give Marina all of his earnings (cash) to keep safely at the Ruth Paine house and keep only ca. $15 in his pocket enough for spending money until he would see her next and replenish, something like that, safer than Oswald carrying large amounts of cash on his person or stashed in an insecure room at his rooming house. The point: the $13.87 Oswald had on him at his arrest on Fri Nov 22 does not reflect a known intent to flee Dallas, anything other than usual living in Oak Cliff and Dallas as before. It is looking to me like Oswald was fully unwitting of an assassination being planned and was framed and blindsided. No fully satisfactory solution to who killed Kennedy (in the sense of other than LHO alone) has come forth in the years since (or if one has it has not succeeded in convincing most other investigators, always not a good sign for any proposed solution), but that is not as unusual as it sounds given that a large number of crimes in history are not solved above the level of unsubstantiated suspicion.  

I am confused as to why you think Adams came down after Baker and Truly came up. 

Lovelady and Shelley both made out that they spent more time in front of the building than they did by the railroad tracks. Well the films show them leaving the front on a trot within seconds. So they could have come in before Adams reached the first floor. That they did so before Baker and Truly went up is supported, moreover, by Baker's testimony, in which he claimed two white men were standing back by the elevators. Lovelady and Shelley are almost certainly these men.

And Ball and Belin knew it. I am starting a thread on the suspicious omissions, which comes from Chapter 4. 

Edited January 2 by Pat Speer

[Roger Odisio]

9 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Roger:

I am familiar and agree with your account on Dorothy Garner and the Stroud document.

I did not have any email exchange with Barry for about a year or so which is related to the lack of time for JFK research over past two years. I retired from my job couple of months ago and hope to revive my JFK research in due time, which includes the modelling of movements of important players across the TSBD in moments following the final shot. 

I also wrote to Barry to let him know about the Mort Sahl interview in case he did not register it.

RO:  Barry knew about the interview when he wrote his book. He refers to it on pp 138-40, and again on p.241.  He says she was excited to be able to tell her story about the steps in public.  The WC, she thought, had not been interested in her version of what happened.

She came away from the show very disappointed.  Lane and Sahl were only interested in her sensational story about seeing Jack Ruby out front. Not the meat of her story about the steps. They kept interrupting her to get back to Ruby. After that experience, Barry says, she stopped talking about her story.

From listening to the interview now, it is true that Lane and Sahl did not understand the importance of, nor were they interested in, Adams' story about the steps. She voluntarily went into it near the end of the segment without being asked.  After Adams recounts how she saw Lovelady upon reaching the first floor and that he was looking for a clock to see what time it was (which the WC never followed up, for obvious reasons), Lane interrupts her to ask (I would say somewhat impatiently) what was the relevancy of that.  She says it is about the timing of her descent.  Lane says, oh. There is no followup and the segment soon ends.

But in that interview, Adams clearly and matter of factly refers to seeing Lovelady on the first floor when she got there. Lovelady looking for the time, and the WC ignoring that, is a crucial supporting point to her claim about the timing.

So the question for Barry, if he responds to you, is, had he seen or heard the 1966 interview before he wrote the book, or was he relying on Adams' account of it some forty years later, which probably didn't mention that point. If he had seen or heard the interview he could not have missed Adams saying she saw Lovelady.   In the book Adams emphatically denies seeing Lovelady. And so does Styles.   

AS:  As far as who first proposed the scenario of Lee Oswald as Prayer Man walking up the front stairwell to reach the 2nd floor lunchroom, I remember Greg took it from me just one day I posted it. It is not that important but I will send you a private message for you to see. However, I was not the one who invented this scenario. It has been discussed right at the start of the original Prayer Man thread ("Oswald leaving TSBD?"), around page 7 of that thread. Sean Murphy fleetingly touched upon this possibility and considered it tight from the timing perspective. It is this "tight" that requires further exploration. There is no realistic chance to reenact different scenarios in the Depository building any longer, and therefore what remains is a computer reconstruction with parametrically adjusted velocities and pauses in movements of individual people. I started this work during the Covid-19 lockdown periods but eventually was unable to complete due to so much load brought about by the new style of teaching at my University.

There is one more catch in Vicki Adams story: if no one has used the stairs or any of the lifts to descend from the sixth floor right after the shooting, how comes that a rifle and spent cartridges were found on the sixth floor? This branch of JFKA case took the most of my time and efforts since I embarked on JFKA research in 2015 with results not strong enough, in my view, to be publicised. 

RO:  They were planted?  If Oswald was not on the 6th floor, did not shoot anyone, and did not go down the stairs after the murder, this is a question of less importance than whether those things are true.  It is a question of the identity of the shooters and their location. While not unimportant, it pales in comparison to the questions that remain.  Who planned the murder and who orchestrated the framing of Oswald and the coverup of what happened.

 

 

 

 

 

[Roger Odisio]

37 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I am confused as to why you think Adams came down after Baker and Truly came up. 

Lovelady and Shelley both made out that they spent more time in front of the building than they did by the railroad tracks. Well the films show them leaving the front on a trot within seconds. So they could have come in before Adams reached the first floor. That they did so before Baker and Truly went up is supported, moreover, by Baker's testimony, in which he claimed two white men were standing back by the elevators. Lovelady and Shelley are almost certainly these men.

And Ball and Belin knew it. I am starting a thread on the suspicious omissions, which comes from Chapter 4. 

Not to mention Garner's story that after Adams and Styles descended the steps, she was still there when Truly and a cop reached the 4th floor. Besides the fact that Adams said she didn't see Truly and a cop at any time.  The idea that Adams and Styles didn't start down the steps until Truly and a cop had passed by has no support as nearly as I can tell.

[Greg Doudna]

43 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I am confused as to why you think Adams came down after Baker and Truly came up. 

Lovelady and Shelley both made out that they spent more time in front of the building than they did by the railroad tracks. Well the films show them leaving the front on a trot within seconds. So they could have come in before Adams reached the first floor. That they did so before Baker and Truly went up is supported, moreover, by Baker's testimony, in which he claimed two white men were standing back by the elevators. Lovelady and Shelley are almost certainly these men.

And Ball and Belin knew it. I am starting a thread on the suspicious omissions, which comes from Chapter 4. 

I will restudy what you have on this Pat. I had the impression that Shelley and Lovelady would have taken more time to go look, whatever, before deciding to return, and the two men Baker saw in his hurry might be black men known to be there and/or reporters making phone calls, but not Shelley and Lovelady that fast. Also Vicki and Sandra missing Baker and Truly on the stairs, neither seeing the other, while possible I suppose if it was right at the lunchroom encounter time, is a negative too. But I will be quiet about this further before listening to your analysis. 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

I will restudy what you have on this Pat. I had the impression that Shelley and Lovelady would have taken more time to go look, whatever, before deciding to return, and the two men Baker saw in his hurry might be black men known to be there and/or reporters making phone calls, but not Shelley and Lovelady that fast. Also Vicki and Sandra missing Baker and Truly on the stairs, neither seeing the other, while possible I suppose if it was right at the lunchroom encounter time, is a negative too. But I will be quiet about this further before listening to your analysis. 

Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.

Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

[Marcus Fuller]

Did Sandra Styles totally corroborate what Vicky Adams said regarding them leaving the 4th floor? I've heard people say she did and people say she didn't.

[Gerry Down]

3 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.

Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

This sounds like the two "white men" were some distance apart from one another. Also the fact one was sitting would appear to go against the idea it was Shelley and Lovelady. 

Piper stated that he was looking at Baker, and he would have been around 30 feet or so, maybe more tbh, from Baker when Baker was trying to get on the elevator.

The description matches Troy West and Eddie Piper except of course for the colour of their skin. Potentially, Dulles asked a leading question here in suggesting the two men were white.

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

This sounds like the two "white men" were some distance apart from one another. Also the fact one was sitting would appear to go against the idea it was Shelley and Lovelady. 

Piper stated that he was looking at Baker, and he would have been around 30 feet or so, maybe more tbh, from Baker when Baker was trying to get on the elevator.

The description matches Troy West and Eddie Piper except of course for the colour of their skin. Potentially, Dulles asked a leading question here in suggesting the two men were white.

Shelley said he ran in to call his wife. I presume he was on the phone near the back and that Lovelady was somewhere nearby. If so, this would have been a few seconds after Vickie Adams came down, as she placed them near the pillar with the phone. 

From chapter 4:

For the image below I have layered R.B. Cutler's drawing of the first floor of the school book depository (which shows the western loading dock and the pillars within the building) atop the illustration of the first floor provided the Warren Commission in CD 496. I have then marked with blue arrows the presumed route of William Shelley to the location of the phone depicted above, and marked this location with a yellow star. I have then marked with green arrows Vickie Adams' purported route from the building.

 

Now note the red star. That's where Adams testified to seeing Shelley. It was right on his route to the phone!

Edited January 3 by Pat Speer

[Andrej Stancak]

11 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

RO:  They were planted?  If Oswald was not on the 6th floor, did not shoot anyone, and did not go down the stairs after the murder, this is a question of less importance than whether those things are true.  It is a question of the identity of the shooters and their location. While not unimportant, it pales in comparison to the questions that remain.  Who planned the murder and who orchestrated the framing of Oswald and the coverup of what happened.

Well, I see the question of Oswald's whereabouts during and after shooring and the question of who arranged the rifle and the spent cartridges or maybe even used the rifle to shoot from the sixth floor as on equal footing. If someone planted items of Oswald's guilt on the sixth foor, that person knew for whom he had worked or who had asked him. Proving that someone else than Oswald was on the sixth floor during the shooting is of equal importance, in my mind, to proving Lee Oswald was Prayer Man; one outcome strengthens the outher outcome. I would prefer commenting more on the sixth floor "evidence" or shooter(s) after somehow completing my research.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 1/2/2024 at 11:24 AM, Greg Doudna said:

...the lying of Oswald under interrogation...

 

What lying are you talking about? I don't recall seeing any Oswald lies when I read the interrogation reports.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 1/2/2024 at 2:04 PM, Pat Speer said:

Well the films show [Shelley & Lovelady] leaving the front on a trot within seconds.

 

That can't be Lovelady walking down Elm Street Extension that you're seeing in the Darnell film. The same film shows him remaining on the steps, talking face-to-face with Gloria Calvery, during the full length of that shot.

 

[Gerry Down]

3 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

That can't be Lovelady walking down Elm Street Extension that your seeing in the Darnell film. The same film shows him remaining on the steps, talking face-to-face with Gloria Calvery, during the full length of that shot.

 

I didn't realise Lovelady was still on the steps in this footage?

[Jonathan Cohen]

29 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

What lying are you talking about? I don't recall seeing any Oswald lies when I read the interrogation reports.

Well, let's see. For starters, he lied about:

- owning a rifle

- being in Mexico City

- telling Wesley Frazier that his package contained curtain rods

- the backyard photographs taken at Neely Street

- living at Neely Street