Vickie Adams Interview

[Tony Krome]

9 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Baker/Truly, 3-4 minutes

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes

[Sandy Larsen]

11 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

LOL, That's not Lovelady.

 

Yes, it is Lovelady. As usual, you are wrong because you don't keep up on all the latest findings.

 

11 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Lovelady and Shelley claimed they walked around the building together, and a film shows two people who look just like them rapidly walking in that direction...

 

Here is Pat's outdated and debunked graphic:

 

 

Lovelady was significantly taller than Shelley. So why does the Darnell Film (Pat's graphic above) show that Shelley is taller than Lovelady? Because that ain't Shelley and Lovelady, Pat.

There's another film that picks up those two guys when the Darnell film loses them. (I forget the name of that cameraman.) And that film shows the "Shelley" figure turning left and heading toward Elm Street while the "Lovelady" figure continued on toward the railroad yard. Why does Shelley do that? Because that ain't Shelley, Pat.

The FBI interviewed Lovelady and Shelley a number of time, with them going into detail exactly what they did after the shooting. And they never once mentioned going to the railroad yard or going back into the TSBD through the west door. Why is that? Because they didn't do those things, Pat.

Do you know when Shelley and Lovelady first mentioned the railroad yard, Pat? In 1964, when the WC discovered it had a problem with Victoria Adam's testimony. The WC fabricated the railroad yard story and used it to discredit Victoria Adams.

 

[Tony Krome]

35 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes

How does Shelley see Truly and Baker going into the building if Shelley and Lovelady are at the freight elevators seen by Adams? haha, love a mystery

[Sandy Larsen]

58 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I know and have read before what Sandy posted above.  But I've also leaned towards Vicky's later statement to Barry Ernest that she did not see Shelly or Lovelady when she came off the stairs.  That her statement was changed to reflect so.

 

Ron, I don't know for a fact whether or not Vickie Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady. But it doesn't matter. Either way, the WC fabricated the narrative of Shelley and Lovelady taking a long trip to the railroad yard for the purpose of discrediting Vickie. What I've done is shown that Shelley and Lovelady did NOT take that trip.

Let me put it this way: I've shown that Shelley and Lovelady most likely re-entered the building at the steps. Maybe Vickie saw them, maybe not. Makes no difference.

And I have no idea why Vickie Adams' story is so different from Sandra Styles' story. What I do know is that Dorothy Garner corroborated Vickie's story, not Sandra's. And I do know that Sandra's version of the story wouldn't have been a threat to the WC. And yet the WC was threatened. For all intents and purposes, therefore, it makes sense to me to believe Vickie's version. Especially what she said in 1966.

 

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

How does Shelley see Truly and Baker going into the building if Shelley and Lovelady are at the freight elevators seen by Adams? haha, love a mystery

Shelley and Lovelady were walking away from the steps and saw Baker running towards the steps. They then circled around to come in through the side entrance, and saw Adams inside the building as she was running towards the back door. Moments later, Baker and Truly approached the elevators. Presumably, Baker and Truly talked for a moment about why Baker was running into the building, and how best to get to the roof, etc, and this delayed them for a bit, probably 30 seconds or so. 

And we know this for a whole slew of reasons. Here are a few.

Adams said she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor when she came down.

Lovelady said he saw a girl talking to Shelley which could have been her when they came in. Well, no other girls were in the area.

Shelley said he talked to Adams but couldn't recall if it was on the first or fourth floor. He went to the fourth floor within a few minutes of the shooting, and came back down a few minutes later, and she returned there after that. As a result, it's difficult, at the very least, to create a timeline in which they were both on the fourth floor, chatting away. 

So, despite the WC spin, and the foolish CT spin, Lovelady's and Shelley's testimony actually supported Adams' story. Always did. Always will. 

And that's not even to mention that Lovelady's statements to the HSCA suggested that he saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs. 

From Chapter 4:

On 7-5-78, Billy Lovelady was interviewed by an HSCA investigator, accompanied by an HSCA photo analyst (Robert Groden). While the tapes of this interview were not transcribed, copies of the tapes were eventually acquired by researcher Richard Gilbride and placed on Youtube. Towards the end of Tape 1, Lovelady is asked "What did you see inside the building?" after he and Shelley returned to the building. He says he saw some co-workers, but does not name them. He is then asked to describe what the police did as they ran into the building. His response is blurred as the tape runs out. At the beginning of Tape 2, however, he repeats for posterity what he was describing as the tape ran out. He repeats: "One policeman (and) Mr. Truly had run up the steps...I guess they went up the steps when they couldn't get the freight elevator to go upstairs." Lovelady is then asked "What else did you see that went on at that time after the police came in?" He responds "At that time, after Mr. Truly and (the) officer ran up, there were more Secret Service and FBI, I guess it was, that came in."

 

Edited January 4 by Pat Speer

[Gerry Down]

2 hours ago, Marjan Rynkiewicz said:

Sean Murphy    Apr 30, 2011, 8:50:14 AM  to

A couple of years back, I made contact with Sandra Styles. She told me
that she felt Victoria Adams had significantly exaggerated the speed
with which the pair descended from the fourth to the first floor after
the shooting.
In the light of Barry Ernest's new book 'The Girl on the Stairs', I
decided to contact Sandra once again to discuss this matter. She has
some rather interesting things to say.
Rather than summarise them (and risk putting words in Sandra's mouth),
I shall simply offer the relevant text from Sandra's own emails. In a
number of places I've asterisked key details.
Before doing so, however, I would like to apologise to Barry Ernest
for having on a previous occasion called his integrity as a researcher
into question. The gap between what Sandra has told me and what Barry
says she told him is not at all as large as I had alleged. My
apologies, Barry.
Sean Murphy

***

In my first email I asked Sandra to respond to the following words
from Barry (as posted on a research forum), who was himself responding
to what Sandra had told me a couple of years back:

'When I interviewed Sandra Styles in 2002, she said absolutely nothing
of the kind to me. What she did say was, she couldn't be sure exactly
how quickly she left the window and went down the stairs, but she
recalled she did so "rather quickly," in her words, and "when Vicki
did," again in her words. Why she would say otherwise now, especially
when she said what she did then and added, "Vicki was the more
observant one," is beyond me.'

Here was Sandra's response:

'First of all, I do not recall that Barry put much emphasis on the
timing or that we spent time discussing that aspect. I stand by what
I said to you. *At the time, I first thought we went downstairs
quickly; but in thinking about it further, I came to the conclusion
that it was not immediately. I told an interviewer (FBI? not sure)
that when we got downstairs, the police were there so I assumed we
went down quickly; however, the interviewer told me that it took the
police 15-20 minutes to get to the Depository, so I accepted that we
must have taken longer to get downstairs than I first thought.* I went
with what Victoria said because she spoke with such certainty; since I
couldn't say for sure, I didn't argue with her. *She also told office
workers that on the way down, she noticed the freight elevator cables
were moving.* I'm not sure what that would prove; but since I did not
notice that, that is what I meant when I said she was more observant.
Barry was working closely with her, and I didn't want to get into it
with her when I couldn't prove it either way.

Barry's main discussion with me concerned the outlay of the office:
the exact location of the back stairs in relation to the other
elevator, which direction the building faced, etc. Since I didn't
have scanning capabilities, I had to describe all that verbally in
several emails. We were all interviewed several times by different
entities over the next year. I always said the the same thing to each
one: that I had nothing of importance to help their investigation.
Their concern was whether I knew Oswald, had ever seen him, etc. As
to the timing of the whole thing, I wasn't sure then and can't say for
certain now. I only go by what seems reasonable. I can only report my
personal recollections the best I can. I was easily led back then,
lol. *If she said we went down immediately, I thought that must be
true. If the interviewer said that was not possible due to the amount
of time it took the police to get over there, I re-thought it and
accepted HIS assessment.* The truth may lie somewhere in between.
What is logical is that, in all the pandemonium, it is unlikely that
we would hear shots and head for the back stairs!'

***

In my reply, I put two points to Sandra:

1) The authorities' claim that it took 15-20 minutes for police to get
to the Depository was way off.
2) Barry had come across the so-called Stroud document, in which
Dorothy Ann Garner is reported to have told authorities she saw Baker
and Truly come up onto the fourth floor AFTER Adams and Styles had
left it.

Sandra's response:

'Hmmmmmmm, points to ponder. At this point, I'm wondering whether I
was even there! hahaha
1. My initial sense was that we went down soon after, and the 15-20
minute delay given by the investigator DID seem a bit long, but I took
his word for it. We did linger at the window a bit trying to sort it
out, and I'm sure it was Vicki's idea to go find out what was going
on; therefore we wouldn't have waited a long time to make the decision
to go downstairs.

I am certain that we went to the public elevator
first, but may not have waited long there either.

My hesitancy on the
timing in all the interviews probably accounts for why they did not
pursue further information from me. As I told everyone who ever
asked, I had no real sense of that aspect of the investigation.
Still, logic tells me it had to take a couple of minutes at least for
things to sink in and to make the decision to go. Therefore, *I'll
give up a few of those minutes but still don't remember it's being a
matter of a few seconds. However, I yield to wiser heads if the
evidence is there.*

2. I know nothing of Dorothy Garner's part. I don't know where she
was at the time. Her office was near the front elevator, but she
could have been in the lunch area on the other side near the back
stairs. It seems odd to me that if the two men ran up the back stairs
a minute or so after the shooting, we did not encounter them on our
way down even if we had left immediately and even more strange that
Mrs. Garner would have been in a position to see them coming up. It
all goes back to the fact that I could be totally off on my
calculations, and anything is possible. I cannot swear in any venue
that what I thought was actually true. I still see it all in my
mind's eye and have not changed my opinion about what we did and when,
but I could be mistaken about the number of minutes. I suppose I
could blame the fact that I am 71 and let it go at that!! No, that
would be too easy.'

***

In my reply, I asked Sandra a number of follow-up questions:

a) Could she recall what her initial time estimate for their going to
the stairs was - i.e. before she was told that the police didn't get
to the Depository for 15-20 minutes?
Her answer: 'Not less than a minute, I thought more like a couple. I
do realize that time takes on feet of its own in a situation like a
shooting or other catastrophe, and witnesses have different takes on
it. I am glad to have the 15-minute thing put to rest; even then it
didn't make sense that it would take the DPD that long to cross the
street.'

b) Could she describe the layout of the fourth floor?
Her answer: 'Here is the layout of the office: Mr. Bergen's office
was in the SE corner and opened into the reception area, as did the
publlic elevator and Dorothy's office. Directly across from Dorothy's
office was a small conference room. Behind the reception area were
the desks of the Customer Service Reps (I was one of those) and
Records (Elsie's job). Then there were the stacks where free teacher
aids and supplies were kept. On the other side of the stacks was the
break/lunch area (not a separate enclosed room), which had a table,
coffeepot and a refrigerator (no drink machine). It was all open; the
only doors were in the bosses' offices, the conference room, and the
back. The elevator opened directly into the reception area. The door
in the NW corner of the breakroom led to the stairs/freight elevator/
storage area.'

c) Could she give any more detail on Victoria's observation about the
elevator cables moving?
Her answer: 'I don't remember any of that. She didn't mention it to
me on the way down or up. As I recall, she only mentioned it later
offhandedly, but I don't recall the circumstances as to how or exactly
when it came up in conversation.'

This email interview is extremely important from a historical point of view. I think it could be key to solving the mystery surrounding Vicky Adams.

Can you start a seperate thread and show all correspondence you had with her? It would be good to show screenshots, rather than copy and paste text, of both your emails to her and her emails back to you so that we get a full sense of what she said. Screenshots would be important from a historical point of view so we can be sure there is no mistake in the copy and paste function.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

4 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

This email interview is extremely important from a historical point of view. I think it could be key to solving the mystery surrounding Vicky Adams.

Can you start a seperate thread and show all correspondence you had with her? It would be good to show screenshots, rather than copy and paste text, of both your emails to her and her emails back to you so that we get a full sense of what she said. Screenshots would be important from a historical point of view so we can be sure there is no mistake in the copy and paste function.

That was a posting by Sean Murphy from Google Groups or somesuch.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/3Dsk9bpdySI

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.assassination.jfk/c/W7McW4aaYMc/m/rmbO883N__wJ

https://jfkfacts.org/one-mans-encounter-with-oswald/

 

Edited January 4 by Marjan Rynkiewicz

[David Von Pein]

Sandra Styles was, of course, with Victoria Adams when they went down the back stairs of the Book Depository shortly after the assassination on 11/22/63. Styles was not called to testify in front of the Warren Commission, but she did talk at some length with assassination researcher Sean Murphy in 2008. Here's what she told Murphy at that time:

[Quoting Sandra Styles:]

“I watched the motorcade from a south-facing window on the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. With me was one of my Scott Foresman colleagues, Victoria Adams (who sadly passed away last year). When the shooting took place, we were not even aware at first that it was a shooting. It sounded like fireworks. President Kennedy was obscured from our view at the critical moments by tree foliage. All I could make out in those moments was the pink of Mrs. Kennedy's suit.

Contrary to what Vickie [Adams] told the Warren Commission, she and I did NOT go to the rear stairs within a minute or so of the shooting. First, we lingered by the window for quite some time, trying to determine what was going on outside. Things were very confused. Next, we made an attempt to take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however, this elevator—which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the fourth floor—did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly — we were wearing high-heel shoes!

While we were still in the office area, our view of the rear stairs was blocked by partitions. Anyone could have come down those stairs without us knowing about it. All this time we had absolutely no idea that shots might have come from the Depository building. As a result, I was paying very little attention to what was going on inside the building in those first few minutes after the assassination.

If the Warren Report estimated that Vickie and I reached the first floor via the rear stairs some 4 or 5 minutes after the shooting, then I'd have to say that sounds a little conservative. If anything, it was probably longer. I have no clear recollection of seeing Bill Shelley or Billy Lovelady (both of whom I had a passing acquaintance with) near the rear of the building when we reached the first floor. I have a vague recollection of seeing them at some point around the front entrance. But it's perfectly possible we did see them where Vickie said we did—near the freight elevator. I really wasn't paying much attention to people IN the building. I thought all the action was outside.

It always puzzled me how Vickie seemed to exaggerate the speed with which we went to the rear stairway. Although I was fond of her, I guess she was what you might call a 'person of drama'. I found the version of events she told people somewhat sensationalistic and at odds with my own memory of those minutes. I simply stated what I recalled, but I didn't contradict her because I felt I couldn't say what she saw or didn't see; just because I didn't recall it the same way did not mean she was in error necessarily. I am not that noble a person that I would not have contradicted her to the interviewers had it been necessary.

Why was Vickie the only one called to testify before the Warren Commission? I don't know. My recollection has always been that I WAS interrogated by a representative from the Warren Commission very briefly in our office, but there was no follow-up, whereas she was questioned more than once. I have wondered whether it might have been that her testimony required more investigation and mine was more plausible or I was less positive in my recollections than she.

Vickie was a very friendly and gregarious person, while I am more reserved and less outgoing. She may have exaggerated some points, while I was cautious about what I said, not wanting to mislead. In some instances, her version might be more accurate.”

-- Sandra Styles; July 2008
 

Source Link

--->

 

Edited January 4 by David Von Pein

[Greg Doudna]

Pat S., I said I would not speak further on this until restudying your chapters but I would like to ask you about the item of Sandra Styles from the Sean Murphy interview told by David von Pein just now. Sandra says she and Vicki tried first to take the front—that’s the southeast!—elevator down but finding it inoperable could not.

That alone knocks out the quick descent time which Sandra also told Sean was wrong. But back to that SE elevator attempt, Sandra sounds very credible, plus a first attempt to take an elevator including trying that SE elevator for women in heels makes a lot of sense in terms of plausibility rather than a stairway for four floors descent. 

Everyone has thought they might have tried the freight elevators at the NW but no, Sandra says it was the SE elevator they tried. That’s a round trip walking of the two women across the full length of the second floor before descent on the NW stairs. I respect your research and from my memory I thought your analysis of Dougherty’s movements was very interesting and convincing, differing from what is conventionally thought. But I wonder if in the end Sandra Styles’ version here is more accurate than Vicki’s. It does seem to come down to picking one or the other of those women with the other being mistaken, the only issue being which one was mistaken. I wonder if you would comment. It is the detail of the SE elevator that is so striking from Sandra to me which I don’t recall having registered on me before David’s quoting it above. Thanks—

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Pat S., I said I would not speak further on this until restudying your chapters but I would like to ask you about the item of Sandra Styles from the Sean Murphy interview told by David von Pein just now. Sandra says she and Vicki tried first to take the front—that’s the southeast!—elevator down but finding it inoperable could not.

That alone knocks out the quick descent time which Sandra also told Sean was wrong. But back to that SE elevator attempt, Sandra sounds very credible, plus a first attempt to take an elevator including trying that SE elevator for women in heels makes a lot of sense in terms of plausibility rather than a stairway for four floors descent. 

Everyone has thought they might have tried the freight elevators at the NW but no, Sandra says it was the SE elevator they tried. That’s a round trip walking of the two women across the full length of the second floor before descent on the NW stairs. I respect your research and from my memory I thought your analysis of Dougherty’s movements was very interesting and convincing, differing from what is conventionally thought. But I wonder if in the end Sandra Styles’ version here is more accurate than Vicki’s. It does seem to come down to picking one or the other of those women with the other being mistaken, the only issue being which one was mistaken. I wonder if you would comment. It is the detail of the SE elevator that is so striking from Sandra to me which I don’t recall having registered on me before David’s quoting it above. Thanks—

Sandra was recalling stuff from decades before. She admitted on numerous occasions that her recollections were fuzzy and that Vickie was more reliable. It seems clear, for that matter, that she did not court controversy and would prefer the whole issue just dry up. We should trust Vickie, IMO. 

But not just because her statements came earlier. No, we should trust Adams because of the corroborating evidence.

1. Adams claimed she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor upon her (and Styles') descent. Lovelady said he and Shelley did indeed go in the side entrance and that yessiree he and Shelley encountered a young woman in the back of the building. The women of the TSBD worked upstairs and took the front elevator up to their offices. No other woman was in the area at the time. The girl recalled by Lovelady was almost certainly Adams.

2. Shelley recalled talking to Adams but wasn't sure whether this was on the first or fourth floor. A study of their movements, however, proves they could not have talked on the fourth floor, for ten minutes or more after the shooting. As Lovelady said he witnessed Shelley talking to this girl, and Lovelady did not accompany Shelley to the fourth floor, moreover, it seems clear he saw them talking on the first floor.

3. Garner said she saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs after watching Adams and Styles run down. Barring that Baker and Truly took their sweet time before running up, this corroborates Adams' claim of a rapid descent.

4. Baker said there were two white men at the back of the building when he came in with Truly. No white men were on the first floor at the time. If these weren't Lovelady and Shelley, well, then, yikes, we have ourselves a couple of suspects, now don't we? 

5. Shelley said Truly told him to guard the elevator. While people assumed this meant the back elevator, he said he shortly thereafter took some policemen up to the fourth floor. Well, Sawyer said an employee took him up to the fourth floor, which he believed to be the top floor, and that he returned after a few minutes. This was roughly four minutes after the shooting. IF Shelley and Lovelady were not on the first floor when Baker and Truly came in, Shelley could not have talked to Truly, and would not have been guarding the front elevator, when Sawyer came in the building. Truly, to be clear, was up on the roof with Baker when Sawyer came in, and would remain there till 8-10 minutes after the shooting. 

6. Although Ball/Belin pointedly avoided asking Shelley and Lovelady if they were the two white men observed by Baker, and if they were in the building when Truly ran up the back stairs, Lovelady mentioned Baker and Truly's running up the back stairs, when asked by an HSCA interviewer to recount what he saw after returning to the building.

7. Adams said she saw a policeman on Houston when she ran out of the building. A policeman, Welcome Barnett, acknowledged running to where she said she saw a policeman, but said he did so for a brief period but a minute or two after the shooting. This further corroborates Adams' claims of an early descent. 

8. Adams said she talked to Avery Davis and Joe Molina on the front steps after leaving the building. Both said they returned to the building shortly after the shooting. If Ball/Belin were actually investigating Adams' story, as opposed to looking for reasons to dismiss it, they would have talked to these witnesses, and asked them to approximate when they returned to the building. But alas they did not. Because they suspected her story was true.

Now, I know it seems unfair to accuse such esteemed lawyers of a deliberate cover-up. But a pattern emerges from studying the statements and testimony of those who worked in the building. And that pattern is that Ball and Belin were anxious to paint Oswald as the assassin, and not particularly interested in establishing the truth. This fact is demonstrated once again in Adams' appearance on the Sahl show, where she claimed Belin refused to re-enact her run down the stairs, and Shelley and Lovelady's run around the building, etc, because it was unnecessary. Her story was considered quite problematic, to such an extent they brought Piper back to say he didn't see her, and buried the Stroud note in the files. And yet they refused to test it. Shame shame shame. 

Edited January 4 by Pat Speer

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Sandra sounds very credible, plus a first attempt to take an elevator including trying that SE elevator for women in heels makes a lot of sense in terms of plausibility rather than a stairway for four floors descent. 

Yes, I agree. Plus, there's the fact that that front elevator is much closer to the place where Adams and Styles were watching the motorcade from (as we can see when looking at the floor plan for the fourth floor). So it makes perfect sense that they would have first tried to go down in the more-convenient front elevator rather than clomp down the rickety stairs while wearing high heels.

Edited January 4 by David Von Pein

[Greg Doudna]

36 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Sandra was recalling stuff from decades before. She admitted on numerous occasions that her recollections were fuzzy and that Vickie was more reliable. It seems clear, for that matter, that she did not court controversy and would prefer the whole issue just dry up. We should trust Vickie, IMO. 

But not just because her statements came earlier. No, we should trust Adams because of the corroborating evidence.

1. Adams claimed she saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor upon her (and Styles') descent. Lovelady said he and Shelley did indeed go in the side entrance and that yessiree he and Shelley encountered a young woman in the back of the building. The women of the TSBD worked upstairs and took the front elevator up to their offices. No other woman was in the area at the time. The girl recalled by Lovelady was almost certainly Adams.

2. Shelley recalled talking to Adams but wasn't sure whether this was on the first or fourth floor. A study of their movements, however, proves they could not have talked on the fourth floor, for ten minutes or more after the shooting. As Lovelady said he witnessed Shelley talking to this girl, and Lovelady did not accompany Shelley to the fourth floor, moreover, it seems clear he saw them talking on the first floor.

3. Garner said she saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs after watching Adams and Styles run down. Barring that Baker and Truly took their sweet time before running up, this corroborates Adams' claim of a rapid descent.

4. Baker said there were two white men at the back of the building when he came in with Truly. No white men were on the first floor at the time. If these weren't Lovelady and Shelley, well, then, yikes, we have ourselves a couple of suspects, now don't we? 

5. Shelley said Truly told him to guard the elevator. While people assumed this meant the back elevator, he said he shortly thereafter took some policemen up to the fourth floor. Well, Sawyer said an employee took him up to the fourth floor, which he believed to be the top floor, and that he returned after a few minutes. This was roughly four minutes after the shooting. IF Shelley and Lovelady were not on the first floor when Baker and Truly came in, Shelley could not have talked to Truly, and would not have been guarding the front elevator, when Sawyer came in the building. Truly, to be clear, was up on the roof with Baker when Sawyer came in, and would remain there till 8-10 minutes after the shooting. 

6. Although Ball/Belin pointedly avoided asking Shelley and Lovely if they were the two white men observed by Baker, and if they were in the building when Truly ran up the backstairs, Lovelady mentioned Baker and Truly's running up the back stairs, when asked by an HSCA interviewer to recount what he saw after retiring to the building.

7. Adams said she saw a policeman on Houston when she ran out of the building. A policeman, Welcome Barnett, acknowledged running to where she said she saw a policeman, but said he did so for a brief period but a minute or two after the shooting. This further corroborates Adams' claims of an early descent. 

8. Adams said she talked to Avery Davis and Joe Molina on the front steps after leaving the building. Both said they returned to the building shortly after the shooting. If Ball/Belin were actually investigating Adams' story, as opposed to looking for reasons to dismiss it, they would have talked to these witnesses, and asked them to approximate when they returned to the building. But alas they did not. Because they suspected her story was true.

Now, I know it seems unfair to accuse such esteemed lawyers of a deliberate cover-up. But a pattern emerges from studying the statements and testimony of those who worked in the building. And that pattern is that Ball and Belin were anxious to paint Oswald as the assassin, and not particularly interested in establishing the truth. This fact is demonstrated once again in Adams' appearance on the Sahl show, where she claimed Belin refused to re-enact her run down the stairs, and Shelley and Lovelady's run around the building, etc, because it was unnecessary. Herstory was considered quite problematic, to such an extent they brought Piper back to say he didn't see her, and buried the Stroud note in the files. Shame shame shame. 

Thanks for your solid reply Pat. You make a case, and you’re right Vicki’s has the advantage of being early testimony rather than Sandra’s decades later. One detail: could you give the quotation, in its context if possible (and link or reference if possible) of Lovelady telling HSCA he SAW Truly and Baker run up the stairs AFTER he got back inside the building? Is that true Lovelady said that? That’s rather stunning if true. I don’t recall that detail. 

[Gerry Down]

40 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Yes, I agree. Plus, there's the fact that that front elevator is much closer to the place where Adams and Styles were watching the motorcade from (as we can see when looking at the floor plan for the fourth floor). So it makes perfect sense that they would have first tried to go down in the more-convenient front elevator rather than clomp down the rickety stairs while wearing high heels.

If Sandra Styles contradicts Vicky Adams, then why didn't the WC question Styles? The warren report goes to great length to discredit Adams and one would think Styles testimony regarding the passenger elevator would have been handy in this regard.

Is it possible the WC did not want to interview Styles in case she confirmed rather than contradicted Adams and so not interviewing Styles was a sneaky way of keeping her off the record?

[Greg Doudna]

57 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Yes, I agree. Plus, there's the fact that that front elevator is much closer to the place where Adams and Styles were watching the motorcade from (as we can see when looking at the floor plan for the fourth floor). So it makes perfect sense that they would have first tried to go down in the more-convenient front elevator rather than clomp down the rickety stairs while wearing high heels.

Interesting David, you’re right, the SE elevator would be the closest to them. I don’t know why I was thinking they would be starting from the NW end to get to the SE elevator (in Sandra’s telling). Duh! This only heightens the logical common-sense that they would try that SE elevator first.

But moving them to near that elevator to begin with removes the timing argument against the Vicki/Pat version, doesn’t it? Allow 20-30 seconds to think and go to that elevator, find it inoperable; another 30 seconds at fast walk to cross to the NW end (for the purpose of taking one of the NW freight elevators down; otherwise they would have descended by the front SE stairway?); add ca 20 seconds to determine neither of the NW elevators is an option, then start heading down, 70-90(?) seconds descent four floors, 140-170 seconds rough estimate to ground floor for the early descent of Vicki.

That’s a little more than estimates for Baker and Truly starting up which, under that scenario, would mean margin of error in one or both of the timing estimates, or (as I believe you once elsewhere suggested) the passing Truly and Baker at the second floor without either pair seeing the other due to being in the lunchroom at that moment. 

So it seems Sandra’s SE elevator is not after all a decisive counter- argument on timing grounds against Vicki (and Pat)?

Edited January 4 by Greg Doudna

[Gerry Down]

9 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

So it seems Sandra’s SE elevator is not after all a decisive counter- argument on timing grounds against Vicki (and Pat)?

But the fact Adams never mentions it calls Adams recollection of events into disrepute.

Edited January 4 by Gerry Down
Clarity