Gerry Down Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pat Speer said: 7. Adams said she saw a policeman on Houston when she ran out of the building. A policeman, Welcome Barnett, acknowledged running to where she said she saw a policeman, but said he did so for a brief period but a minute or two after the shooting. This further corroborates Adams' claims of an early descent. Are you sure she specifically said Houston street? She does not mention a street in that 1966 interview. Plus Barnett nor Romack never mention seeing two women running out the back door. In the 1966 interview, she says the cop was talking to a guy in a suit. Barnet spoke to no one while he was at the back of the tsbd. Edited January 4 by Gerry Down Added extra info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 30 minutes ago, Gerry Down said: If Sandra Styles contradicts Vicky Adams, then why didn't the WC question Styles? Good question. I have no idea. But Sandra (as of 2008 anyway) certainly did contradict Miss Adams, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Odisio Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 8 minutes ago, Gerry Down said: If Sandra Styles contradicts Vicky Adams, then why didn't the WC question Styles? The warren report goes to great length to discredit Adams and one would think Styles testimony regarding the passenger elevator would have been handy in this regard. Is it possible the WC did not want to interview Styles in case she confirmed rather than contradicted Adams and so not interviewing Styles was a sneaky way of keeping her off the record? By the time Belin interviewed Adams on April 7 (they interviewed Shelley and Lovelady the same day), he knew Styles would corroborate the essentials of what Adams said. Isolating Adams and claiming she was mistaken about the timing of the trip was much preferrable than if they had to say both women were mistaken. They also didn't interview Garner, who told Ernest more emphatically than Styles that the two women went down the stairs quickly after the shots. A second corroboration of Adams. They buried Martha Stroud's June 2 letter, sent by registered mail to J Lee Rankin, in which Garner told Stroud *that morning* that after Adams went down the stairs she (Garner) "saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up". Garner told Ernest she hadn't seen Oswald that day. When evaluating what the WC staff did, it's necessary to keep in mind that their job was to frame Oswald, not seek the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 23 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said: otherwise they would have descended by the front SE stairway? Nope. That SE stairway only connects the first and second floors. It doesn't go higher than Floor 2. So those stairs were never an option for Adams & Styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Down Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said: They buried Martha Stroud's June 2 letter, sent by registered mail to J Lee Rankin, in which Garner told Stroud *that morning* that after Adams went down the stairs she (Garner) "saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up". Garner told Ernest she hadn't seen Oswald that day. Didn't realise it was sent by registered mail. Definitely makes the WC look shady in regard to this whole issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Gerry Down said: But the fact Adams never mentions it calls Adams recollection of events into disrepute. Not necessarily Gerry. Was she specifically asked at the time or WC time and denied it? I doubt it. The strongest argument they tried the SE front elevator first is it is simply common sense logical they would, whether or not they were in heels which makes navigating stairs even more difficult. Why on earth would women on the fourth floor wanting to descend not attempt to take the elevator? Plus, Sandra says they did (try). To me that just about settles it, they tried that front elevator, and only because they could not take that elevator did they descend by the less preferable means of going down four flights of stairs. Edited January 4 by Greg Doudna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Gerry Down said: Are you sure she specifically said Houston street? She does not mention a street in that 1966 interview. Plus Barnett nor Romack never mention seeing two women running out the back door. In the 1966 interview, she says the cop was talking to a guy in a suit. Barnet spoke to no one while he was at the back of the tsbd. Mr. BELIN - Is there any other information that you can think of that might be relevant to anything, connected with the assassination? Miss ADAMS - At the time I left the building on the Houston Street dock, there was an officer standing about 2 yards from the curb, and about from the curb across the street from the Texas School Depository, and about 4 yards from the corner of Houston and Elm, and when we were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was standing there, and he didn't encounter us or ask us what we were doing or where we were going, and I don't know if that is pertinent. Mr. LIEBELER - What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building? Mr. BARNETT - I ran to the back of the building. Mr. LIEBELER - Ran down Houston Street? Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner? Mr. BARNETT - It is around the corner from Houston Street. Mr. LIEBELER - Did you go in the building? Mr. BARNETT - No, sir; I didn't get close to it, because I was watching for a fire escape. If the man was on top, he would have to come down, and I was looking for a fire escape, and I didn't pay much attention to the door. I was still watching the top of the building, and so far as I could see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down. Mr. LIEBELER - Since you surmised that the shots had come from the building, you looked up and you didn't see any windows open. You thought they had been fired from the top of the building? Mr. BARNETT - That's right. Mr. LIEBELER - So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape? Mr. BARNETT - I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building. Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, or any movement on top of the building? Mr. BARNETT - Not a thing. Mr. LIEBELER - What did you do after you went around behind the building? Mr. BARNETT - I went looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west. Mr. LIEBELER - Going west down the little street there in front of the School Book Depository Building? Mr. BARNETT - Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building. So since this was the only fire escape and there were officers down here watching the back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here searching. Mr. LIEBELER - You mean the officers went on down toward No. 5 on your Exhibit No. 354? Mr. BARNETT - When I got to the front, some of the officers were coming back toward me, started back toward me. Mr. LIEBELER - You were still back near the intersection of Elm and Houston? Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwest corner of the intersection up to me and said, "I was standing over there and saw the man in the window with the rifle." He and I and the sergeant all three broke and ran for the door. Edited January 4 by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 15 minutes ago, David Von Pein said: Nope. That SE stairway only connects the first and second floors. It doesn't go higher than Floor 2. So those stairs were never an option for Adams & Styles. Sorry—you’re right! That could cut time from my estimate of the Vicki timing if they did not for whatever reason delay to try the freight elevators, lessening the timing difference which is probably within margin of error of agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Down Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 7 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said: Not necessarily Gerry. Was she specifically asked at the time or WC time and denied it? I doubt it. The strongest argument they tried elevators first is it is simply common sense logical they would, whether or not they were in heels which makes navigating stairs even more difficult. Why on earth would women on the fourth floor wanting to descend not attempt to take the elevator? Plus, Sandra says they did (try). To me that just about settles it, they tried both elevators (not just the front one otherwise they would have started descending by the front stairs), and only because they could not take an elevator did they descend by the less preferable means of going down four flights of stairs. I doubt the women would have considered using the freight elevators. I wonder why the passenger elevator was not available. Was there a power cut or were other people using it at the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said: Thanks for your solid reply Pat. You make a case, and you’re right Vicki’s has the advantage of being early testimony rather than Sandra’s decades later. One detail: could you give the quotation, in its context if possible (and link or reference if possible) of Lovelady telling HSCA he SAW Truly and Baker run up the stairs AFTER he got back inside the building? Is that true Lovelady said that? That’s rather stunning if true. I don’t recall that detail. It was my discovery. From chapter 4: On 7-5-78, Billy Lovelady was interviewed by an HSCA investigator, accompanied by an HSCA photo analyst (Robert Groden). While the tapes of this interview were not transcribed, copies of the tapes were eventually acquired by researcher Richard Gilbride and placed on Youtube. Towards the end of Tape 1, Lovelady is asked "What did you see inside the building?" after he and Shelley returned to the building. He says he saw some co-workers, but does not name them. He is then asked to describe what the police did as they ran into the building. His response is blurred as the tape runs out. At the beginning of Tape 2, however, he repeats for posterity what he was describing as the tape ran out. He repeats: "One policeman (and) Mr. Truly had run up the steps...I guess they went up the steps when they couldn't get the freight elevator to go upstairs." Lovelady is then asked "What else did you see that went on at that time after the police came in?" He responds "At that time, after Mr. Truly and (the) officer ran up, there were more Secret Service and FBI, I guess it was, that came in." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Gerry Down said: I doubt the women would have considered using the freight elevators. I wonder why the passenger elevator was not available. Was there a power cut or were other people using it at the time? The power outage noted by Adams occurred roughly 8-10 minutes after the shooting. After she'd spent some time out front and had decided to come back inside. Presumably, someone turned off the power to cut into the possibility someone on an upper floor would try to get past the cops combing the upper floors, but I don't believe it has ever been fully explained. The passenger elevator by the front was functioning in the first minutes after the shooting, as Shelley took Sawyer upstairs via that elevator. As to why Adams and Styles didn't take that elevator... Within seconds of the shooting, people began rushing to the grassy knoll area. Some within the building, such as the three men on the fifth floor, rushed over to the west windows to see what was going on. As Adams' office had no such window, she and Styles presumably ran to the west-facing windows at the back of the fourth floor, but then decided what the heck let's just go down there and see it all up close. That's just a guess, but it makes sense. Edited January 4 by Pat Speer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Pat Speer said: At the beginning of Tape 2, however, he repeats for posterity what he was describing as the tape ran out. He repeats: "One policeman (and) Mr. Truly had run up the steps...I guess they went up the steps when they couldn't get the freight elevator to go upstairs." Lovelady is then asked "What else did you see that went on at that time after the police came in?" He responds "At that time, after Mr. Truly and (the) officer ran up, there were more Secret Service and FBI, I guess it was, that came in." I'm just wondering, though, if Lovelady had actually SEEN (with his own eyes) Truly & Baker going to the stairs....or if (just perhaps) he was telling the HSCA in 1978 something he knew had happened but hadn't actually seen himself??? Because it would certainly seem as though the things Lovelady & Shelley said they did after the shooting would consume a minimum of at least a couple of minutes before they re-entered the building, which would mean Lovelady couldn't possibly have actually SEEN Baker & Truly on the 1st floor, because we know B&T were in the lunchroom with Oswald within about 90 seconds of the last shot. But, boy!, trying to fit everybody's "timing" issues into a workable theory sure does cause headaches, doesn't it? Because there's always going to be some piece of the "timing" puzzle that doesn't quite fit. Edited January 4 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 minute ago, David Von Pein said: I'm just wondering, though, if Lovelady had actually SEEN (with his own eyes) Truly & Baker going to the stairs....or if (just perhaps) he was telling the HSCA in 1978 something he knew had happened but hadn't actually seen himself. ???? Because it would certainly seem as though the things Lovelady & Shelley said they did after the shooting would consume a minimum of at least a couple of minutes before they re-entered the building, which would mean Lovelady couldn't possibly have actually SEEN Baker & Truly on the 1st floor, because we know B&T were in the lunchroom with Oswald within about 90 seconds of the last shot. But, boy!, trying to fit everybody's "timing" issues into a workable theory sure does cause headaches, doesn't it? Because there's always going to be some piece of the "timing" puzzle that doesn't quite fit. Yes, piecing this stuff together is a pain, which is why I went back at one point and read all the statements and testimony fresh and free of spin. It was only then that it began falling into place. I mean, who was the girl Lovelady saw taking to Shelley when they came back in the building, if not Adams? No other "girl" was in the area. And who were the two white men Baker saw at the back of the building, if not Lovelady and Shelley? No other white men were in the area. Piece after piece. While the puzzle is nowhere complete, it's not the steaming pile of confusion some would have us believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Down Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 6 minutes ago, Pat Speer said: The power outage noted by Adams occurred roughly 8-10 minutes after the shooting. After she'd spent some time out front and had decided to come back inside. Presumably, someone turned off the power to cut into the possibility someone on an upper floor would try to get past the cops combing the upper floors, but I don't believe it has ever been fully explained. The passenger elevator by the front was functioning in the first minutes after the shooting, as Shelley took Sawyer upstairs via that elevator. As to why Adams and Styles didn't take that elevator... Within seconds of the shooting, people began rushing to the grassy knoll area. Some within the building, such as the three men on the fifth floor, rushed over to the west windows to see what was going on. As Adams' office had no such window, she and Styles presumably ran to the west-facing windows at the back of the fourth floor, but then decided what the heck let's just go down there and see it all up close. That's just a guess, but it makes sense. If the case is to be made that Adams and Styles first attempted to use the passenger elevator, then an explanation is needed as to why they then did not use that elevator. Was someone on the passenger elevator at the time? Did Reid use the passenger elevator to get to the second floor? Seems like too short of a journey for Reid to bother using the passenger elevator. The stairs would have been easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 3 minutes ago, Gerry Down said: If the case is to be made that Adams and Styles first attempted to use the passenger elevator, then an explanation is needed as to why they then did not use that elevator. But the fact that Sandra Styles said (as of July 2008 at any rate) that she specifically recalls that she and Victoria Adams had attempted to descend via the "front-of-building elevator" (but that elevator was unavailable to them, for some unknown reason) is a detail that should not be completely dismissed (even if it is a "late arriving" detail from 2008). "We made an attempt to take the front-of-building elevator downstairs. For some reason, however, this elevator—which, unlike the rear elevator, went only as high as the fourth floor—did not come when we called it. It was only after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs. And even then we did not proceed very quickly — we were wearing high-heel shoes!" -- S. Styles; 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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