Vickie Adams Interview

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

She was very much alive at the time.  I don't actually know. Is she still with us? In any event, it would have been quite easy for her to put out the word that she thought her words had been misrepresented, if she thought they had been misrepresented. When Max Holland put together that awful program suggesting the first shot was fired before Zapruder started filming, and hit the traffic light, Tina Towner and James Tague both let it be known they thought the premise of the show was horse-poop. If Styles had thought she came downstairs much later than presumed, it seems clear she would have said as much. As it is, she refused to be tied down, and said for all she knew Oswald raced down before her, or raced down after. IOW, she didn't have a clear recollection...50 years after the fact. 

We know that Oswald's first shot did not hit the overhead signals (according to the owner of the signals, Christopher, who took the signals down when they were upgraded).

But, Holland deserves our thanks for (correctly) telling us that Oswald's shot hit (ricocheted offa) the signal support arm.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

So you think BAKER lied. And you think TRULY lied. And you think FRITZ lied when he said that Oswald himself said he encountered the policeman on the second floor. And you think BOOKHOUT lied when he said (on Page 619 of the WCR) that Oswald admitted that the 2nd-floor encounter did occur.

When you need to accuse so many people of telling blatant lies, it should send up a red flag to all reasonable researchers.

 

That's what happens in government coverups.

 

[David Von Pein]

19 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

That's what happens in government coverups.

And, therefore, I guess you must think that THREE different NON-GOVERNMENT individuals (Baker, Truly, and Fritz) just decided to go along with the "government cover-up" by lying through their teeth regarding the 2FLRE? Is that correct?

Or do you think that all 3 of the above-named individuals were, in fact, part of the "Government" of the USA? Even Patrolman M.L. Baker??

Time for Sandy to Get Real.

 

Edited January 10 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

28 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

And, therefore, I guess you must think that THREE different NON-GOVERNMENT individuals (Baker, Truly, and Fritz) just decided to go along with the "government cover-up" by lying through their teeth regarding the 2FLRE? Is that correct?

Or do you think that all 3 of the above-named individuals were, in fact, part of the "Government" of the USA? Even Patrolman M.L. Baker??

 

My best guess is that Truly was CIA and would have no trouble lying for the government; Fritz was a police officer and would have no problem lying for either the department or the government; and Baker was talked into patriotically lying for the government, but had a hard time doing so.

 

28 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Time for Sandy to Get Real.

 

It's time for you to grow up David. The government hides things all the time and lies about them.

Ever hear of the Pentagon Papers?

 

[David Von Pein]

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / Dorothy Garner And The Back Stairs

 

Edited January 10 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

Speaking of stairways.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

13 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Speaking of stairways.

 

 

So, whadaya think Ron...

The greatest rock song of all time? The greatest rock band of all time?

That's what a lot of people say. Certainly they're among the very best.

But, alas, I love so many songs and bands that I can't commit to just one.

 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

What??? Of course they had an interest in what was going on in the railroad yards. They started to go over there but were stopped by a policeman who told them to go back in the building. 

There is a version (by Styles or by Adams)(via Ernest or someone) that says that that policeman (probly Foster) said to go southwest to the front (this happened i suppose near the NW corner of the TSBD)(allbeit with 2 sets of rail tracks between them  & the TSBD).

[Jim Hargrove]

Way back in 1966, Vicki Adams told Mort Sahl and Mark Lane that Shelly and Lovelady WERE BY the landing of the back steps of the TSBD on the first floor immediately after JFK was shot.  Why would these two men not watch an American President go right by their building????

The whole Barry Ernst thing is wrong!!

 

Listen to it all right HERE, on Len Osanic's Black Op Radi0!!! Start at the 40 minute mark to hear Vicki say Shelly and Lovelady were standing at the bottom of the rear staircase, which, by the way, is close to the electrical terminal that surely would have turned the lights out in the TSBD and stopped the elevators.  Just a coincidence, eh?

 

Edited January 11 by Jim Hargrove

[Pat Speer]

22 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Way back in 1966, Vicki Adams told Mort Sahl and Mark Lane that Shelly and Lovelady WERE BY the landing of the back steps of the TSBD on the first floor immediately after JFK was shot.  Why would these two men not watch an American President go right by their building????

The whole Barry Ernst thing is wrong!!

 

Listen to it all right HERE, on Len Osanic's Black Op Radi0!!! Start at the 40 minute mark to hear Vicki say Shelly and Lovelady were standing at the bottom of the rear staircase, which, by the way, is close to the electrical terminal that surely would have turned the lights out in the TSBD and stopped the elevators.  Just a coincidence, eh?

 

They watched the President go by, and heard the shots. They then walked/jogged around the west side of the building  and re-entered the building by the west loading dock, because Shelley wanted to call his wife. This would have taken but a short time. It's a tight squeeze, but it seems likely they were at the back of the building when Adams came down, and that this was a few seconds before Baker and Truly arrived at the elevator. 

[Jim Hargrove]

Yes, I meant to say why didn't the two men watch more of the *aftermath* of the shooting.  Vicki Adams told the WC she and Styles arrived at the bottom of the stairs "no longer than a minute at the most" after the shots.  And she saw Shelley and Lovelady standing there.

Both men's stories changed over time.  Here's how John A. summarized it on our website:

 

Following is a sequential list that shows how Shelley and Lovelady repeatedly changed their statements.
 

Billy Lovelady

DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63:  "After [the shooting] was over WE WENT BACK INTO THE BUILDING...."

FBI Report, 11/22/63:   "....immediately after hearing the shots [LOVELADY] and SHELLEY STARTED RUNNING TOWARDS THE PRESIDENTIAL CAR, but it sped away.... [They] then returned to the [TSBD]...."

FBI Statement, 3/19/64: "....following the shooting, I RAN TOWARD THE SPOT WHERE PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S CAR HAD STOPPED. William Shelley and myself STAYED IN THAT AREA FOR APPROXIMATELY FIVE MINUTES when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."

WC Deposition, 4/7/64:  "... ABOUT THREE MINUTES AFTER THE SHOTS, Gloria Calvery arrived. After speaking with her, [WE] WALKED QUICKLY TO THE RAILROAD TRACKS, and then entered the west door of the TSBD."

NOTE: WC Attorney Joseph Ball asked Lovelady "After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building.... Who did you see in the first floor?" Lovelady answered,  "I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie." It is important to understand that Victoria Adams' name hadn't been previously mentioned during Lovelady's testimony, yet Lovelady somehow knew her name and knew that he was supposed to have seen her on the first floor. It appears that Lovelady was interviewed and coached prior to giving testimony to the WC.

 HSCA Testimony:  Lovelady told the HSCA that he DID NOT RETURN TO THE BUILDING FOR 25 MINUTES
 

 Bill Shelley

DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63:  "I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into [Gloria Calvery].... I WENT BACK TO THE BUILDING and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened."

FBI Statement, 3/18/64:  "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yard just west of the building and RETURNED THRU THE WEST SIDE OF THE BUILDING ABOUT 10 MINUTES LATER."

WC Deposition, 4/7/64:  "About three or four minutes after the shots, Gloria Calvery arrived. Billy Lovelady and I ran across the street to the concrete island and stopped for a minute. We then WALKED TO THE FIRST RAILROAD TRACK AND WATCHED THEM SEARCHING FOR A WHILE, after which we entered the west door of the TSBD."

[Roger Odisio]

5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Yes, I meant to say why didn't the two men watch more of the *aftermath* of the shooting.  Vicki Adams told the WC she and Styles arrived at the bottom of the stairs "no longer than a minute at the most" after the shots.  And she saw Shelley and Lovelady standing there.

Both men's stories changed over time.  Here's how John A. summarized it on our website:

 

Following is a sequential list that shows how Shelley and Lovelady repeatedly changed their statements.
 

Billy Lovelady

DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63:  "After [the shooting] was over WE WENT BACK INTO THE BUILDING...."

FBI Report, 11/22/63:   "....immediately after hearing the shots [LOVELADY] and SHELLEY STARTED RUNNING TOWARDS THE PRESIDENTIAL CAR, but it sped away.... [They] then returned to the [TSBD]...."

FBI Statement, 3/19/64: "....following the shooting, I RAN TOWARD THE SPOT WHERE PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S CAR HAD STOPPED. William Shelley and myself STAYED IN THAT AREA FOR APPROXIMATELY FIVE MINUTES when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."

WC Deposition, 4/7/64:  "... ABOUT THREE MINUTES AFTER THE SHOTS, Gloria Calvery arrived. After speaking with her, [WE] WALKED QUICKLY TO THE RAILROAD TRACKS, and then entered the west door of the TSBD."

NOTE: WC Attorney Joseph Ball asked Lovelady "After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building.... Who did you see in the first floor?" Lovelady answered,  "I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie." It is important to understand that Victoria Adams' name hadn't been previously mentioned during Lovelady's testimony, yet Lovelady somehow knew her name and knew that he was supposed to have seen her on the first floor. It appears that Lovelady was interviewed and coached prior to giving testimony to the WC.

 HSCA Testimony:  Lovelady told the HSCA that he DID NOT RETURN TO THE BUILDING FOR 25 MINUTES
 

 Bill Shelley

DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63:  "I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into [Gloria Calvery].... I WENT BACK TO THE BUILDING and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened."

FBI Statement, 3/18/64:  "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yard just west of the building and RETURNED THRU THE WEST SIDE OF THE BUILDING ABOUT 10 MINUTES LATER."

WC Deposition, 4/7/64:  "About three or four minutes after the shots, Gloria Calvery arrived. Billy Lovelady and I ran across the street to the concrete island and stopped for a minute. We then WALKED TO THE FIRST RAILROAD TRACK AND WATCHED THEM SEARCHING FOR A WHILE, after which we entered the west door of the TSBD."

Thanks for that rundown. Probably all of the major witnesses had a pre-interview before the official one to set up the story WC staff wanted to tell

Vicki Adams told Ernest that when Belin finished the pre interview with her, he said now we'll do the official one and you must answer the questions exactly as you just have.  Iow, the story I want from you is set.  No deviations.  Ball was to interview Shelley and Lovelady a few hours later the same day to work out a way to discredit Adams.

Now please retract your statement about the "whole Ernest thing" being all wrong. The book uncovered valuable information.  Finding the Stroud letter and bringing into play what Garner said. Finding out that the stenotapes of all three of them are missing from NARA. Fleshing out the details of some of the things Adams went through when they found out what she had to say. Just some examples.

Ernest told me he had not seen Adams' 1966 appearance before he wrote the book, but Adams' had told him about it (it's mentioned twice in the book, pp 139-40 and 231). Unable to find the tape, he relied on what Adams told him about the episode.

When it came time emphasize which lie the WC used to discredit Adams, it now looks like Ernest may have picked the wrong one. That's a detail which can be corrected and we're on the way to doing that.  The important fact that Ernest makes clear is that the WC lied to discredit Adams, whose story would have destroyed their Oswald fabrication.

[Gerry Down]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

Thanks for that rundown. Probably all of the major witnesses had a pre-interview before the official one to set up the story WC staff wanted to tell

Vicki Adams told Ernest that when Belin finished the pre interview with her, he said now we'll do the official one and you must answer the questions exactly as you just have.  Iow, the story I want from you is set.  No deviations.  Ball was to interview Shelley and Lovelady a few hours later the same day to work out a way to discredit Adams.

Part of this could have been to ensure no derogatory or libelous info entered the public record such as one tsbd worker bitching about another tsbd worker.

[Gene Kelly]

2 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

Thanks for that rundown. Probably all of the major witnesses had a pre-interview before the official one to set up the story WC staff wanted to tell

Vicki Adams told Ernest that when Belin finished the pre interview with her, he said now we'll do the official one and you must answer the questions exactly as you just have.  Iow, the story I want from you is set.  No deviations.  Ball was to interview Shelley and Lovelady a few hours later the same day to work out a way to discredit Adams.

Now please retract your statement about the "whole Ernest thing" being all wrong. The book uncovered valuable information.  Finding the Stroud letter and bringing into play what Garner said. Finding out that the stenotapes of all three of them are missing from NARA. Fleshing out the details of some of the things Adams went through when they found out what she had to say. Just some examples.

Ernest told me he had not seen Adams' 1966 appearance before he wrote the book, but Adams' had told him about it (it's mentioned twice in the book, pp 139-40 and 231). Unable to find the tape, he relied on what Adams told him about the episode.

When it came time emphasize which lie the WC used to discredit Adams, it now looks like Ernest may have picked the wrong one. That's a detail which can be corrected and we're on the way to doing that.  The important fact that Ernest makes clear is that the WC lied to discredit Adams, whose story would have destroyed their Oswald fabrication.

Roger:

I agree (about the retraction of Barry Ernest's account being "wrong") ... see the February 2021 article in Kennedy's and King entitled “Barry Ernest Replies to John Armstrong, RE: Victoria Adams” by Barry Ernest.  The documentary record of Adams’ DPD testimony differs from her previous testimony. The stenographer’s tape of Adams actual testimony (i.e., what she told Belin) was destroyed.  She never saw Shelley and Lovelady ... she felt those words had been inserted into the record to disprove her timing and credibility. The Martha Jo Stroud letter to Rankin (only declassified after ARRB and discovered in 1999) supports Adams’ actual account, and Dorothy Garner supported what Adams (and Styles) said about not seeing Lovelady and Shelley.   

Gene

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Part of this could have been to ensure no derogatory or libelous info entered the public record such as one tsbd worker bitching about another tsbd worker.

Geez, I get into this on my website. And the record is very clear. From studying Howard Willens' diary, and the related documents, it's clear some lawyers wanted to interview the witnesses cold, and let the chips fall where they may, and that some insisted they needed to pre-interview them off the record, so they could avoid problematic answers, After Specter began interviewing witnesses in Washington, and Warren saw how many witnesses were claiming they heard more than three shots, or that the shots came in in a flurry, etc, Warren called a meeting, and told the lawyers they needed to pre-interview their witnesses, and keep the record clean. And that's what they did from then on. Ball and Belin, in particular, pre-interviewed problematic witnesses, and screened God knows what from the record. Adams was not the only one to be abused in this manner, nor were the tapes to her deposition the only ones to disappear. It is my understanding they all were destroyed. And I'm not even sure this was unusual. The FBI destroys their notes as soon as a report is written, so it wouldn't be surprising if the tapes used to create a transcript were destroyed once the transcript was created. As it is, we have Adams' transcript, with her handwritten notes, which match up to what was stated in the Stroud letter. And we now have her statement on the Sahl show stating she did in fact see Lovelady and Shelley. So there's no reason to suspect anything was changed in the transcript itself.

But, of course, Belin's screening of the questions asked Adams remains a problem. On my website, I list dozens of questions that should have been asked of the Commission's witnesses, and some that were listed in memos as going to be asked, that were never asked. We can only assume then that many of these questions were asked off the record, but that Ball/Belin/Specter/whomever didn't like the answer and failed to re-ask these questions once on the record. 

Edited January 11 by Pat Speer