Matt Cloud's compilation of Harvey & Lee related coincidences and some theories explaining them

[Matt Cloud]

1 minute ago, Matt Cloud said:

In addition, I find pictures like the one here, of he and wife Marie in Colorado, to be completely contrived, especially when shown un-cropped as in Dale Myers' book With Malice.  Doesn't look like a genuine couple married for over 15 years, and he stepping-out on the side and holding down three jobs with -- what? -- 3 kids.  But that's just me.  

 

https://www.jdtippit.com/1952_bio.htm

That is to say, the photo, while undoubtedly "real" photographically, looks staged, with sophisticated arrangement and composition and with them not even looking into the camera, with what appears to be a large format camera.  Looks odd. 

[Ron Bulman]

You are prolific Matt.  It seems you have a lot of time on your hands since you joined on Saturday making 58 posts.  Some of us don't have time to read all of them, though they may be relevant.

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

You are prolific Matt.  It seems you have a lot of time on your hands since you joined on Saturday making 58 posts.  Some of us don't have time to read all of them, though they may be relevant.

Very true, but from what I’ve managed to read, Matt has certainly posted a lot of information, but I have to argue with a number of his conclusions.  For example, in THIS POST he writes:

Now -- how did Daniel P. Moynihan on 11/22/63 know "We must get a hold of Oswald?"

Asked for sources, Matt offers a Harvard Crimson article  and another identically worded newspaper article in which Moynihan merely expresses well-founded concern for Oswald’s safety in the immediate aftermath of the assassination. A third source is behind a paywall.  Nowhere have I seen “We must get a hold of Oswald.”

In THIS POST he writes:

BTW, might RFK have wanted Oswald silenced after 11/22?  Something to think about.

Quite an accusation, disguised as a question, and without evidence.  Since we now know Ruby was more involved in the assassination of JFK than was previously thought, it seems highly improbable that RFK would have anything to do with Ruby’s instructions.

In THIS POST he writes:

At the most basic level, for now, the point is this: The Tippet's of CT are much closer to TX than they have let on and they are much closer to covert operations (AF reconnaissance certainly and possibly too the Flying Tigers, eg) than they have let on.

Like my father, J.D. Tippit of Connecticut was a WWII veteran and a reservist.  This hardly makes either man a spook.

In THIS POST he wrote:

If this is correct, that the Tippets of CT sold out Elizabeth Bentley, I would not have put any faith in Tina Tippet explaining to you John Kowalski any more than what was already in the 1963 FBI report.  And all the more now, since Tina Tippet is deceased. 

The Tippits of Connecticut DID NOT sell out Elizabeth Bentley.  They did what any responsible citizens should do after receiving such a call.  The FBI knew all about Emile Kardos/Emil Gardos as well as Elizabeth Bentley.  All had been on the radar for years.  This attempt to vilify the Tippits  of Connecticut seems odd, until we examine the next quote from Matt.

Also, I’m shocked that Matt seems so opposed to the important efforts by John Kowalski to obtain contemporaneous notes Mrs. Tippit made of the call(s) from the anonymous caller.  Don’t get discouraged John!

And in THIS POST Matt writes:

uh ... because obviously she [Bentley] is linking the Tippits of CT to Tippits of TX and knows some things about Oswald's back story that could blow the entire assassination story.  The Tippits of CT are very much involved in perpetuating that story. 

The Tippits of Connecticut WERE NOT “very much involved in perpetuating the story.”  By 11/30/1963 the basics of LHO’s biography were well known.  Pointing to an LHO living with a Hungarian “father and uncle” hardly backs the Official Story.  It points, clearly and directly, to a second LHO! 

[Matt Cloud]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Very true, but from what I’ve managed to read, Matt has certainly posted a lot of information, but I have to argue with a number of his conclusions.  For example, in THIS POST he writes:

Now -- how did Daniel P. Moynihan on 11/22/63 know "We must get a hold of Oswald?"

Asked for sources, Matt offers a Harvard Crimson article  and another identically worded newspaper article in which Moynihan merely expresses well-founded concern for Oswald’s safety in the immediate aftermath of the assassination. A third source is behind a paywall.  Nowhere have I seen “We must get a hold of Oswald.”

That wasn't a conclusion.  That was a question: how did Daniel P. Moynihan on 11/22/63 know "We must get a hold of Oswald?"

So you didn't check the Post article.  I see.  Take your issue with the paywall up with The Post; or go to another resource where the article can be obtained.  If you had bothered, performed a modicum of due diligence, or at least come back to me saying I don't see that quote rather than stating foolishly that the quote does not exist, and implying I had been deceitful not once but twice in as many days, a quick search with google of Moynihan "we must get hold of Oswald" (minus the "a"), would return this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Moynihan+"we+must+get+hold+of+Oswald"&sca_esv=85af15397c77c0f6&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS775US775&sxsrf=ACQVn0_xJj6hxwRRJa14CKjTXQIXC2us9w%3A1709041853220&ei=vejdZdWHDbjIptQP_YS_yAY&ved=0ahUKEwiV2sSE1cuEAxU4pIkEHX3CD2kQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=Moynihan+"we+must+get+hold+of+Oswald"&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiJU1veW5paGFuICJ3ZSBtdXN0IGdldCBob2xkIG9mIE9zd2FsZCJIm1FQzBhYgE9wAngAkAECmAGHBqAB1h6qAQ0wLjQuMS4wLjIuMC4zuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIDoAKkA8ICBBAjGCfCAggQABiABBiiBJgDAIgGAZIHBTAuMi4x&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

THE PARANOID STYLE

 

The Washington Post

https://www.washingtonpost.com › opinions › 1991/12/29

 

 

 

By Daniel Patrick Moynihan. December 29, 1991. It happens I was in the White House ... I pleaded with any who knew me: "We must get hold of Oswald." No one had the foggiest idea what I was talking about."

 

You also didn't read the intro to Coping evidently, a source I also provided you, wherein he writes, on p. 6, that he had been at the White House on November 22, 1963.  Written in August 1972, but not published until 1974, he describes the scene:

 

"It occurred to me to take one last look at the Oval Room, which I did not expect to see again.  I had hardly been a regular visitor. but even so I had been there, with him in the rocking chair, and had once, even, corrected his arithmetic; and now this was all finished."

 

He adds, breaking some news however parenthetically:

 

"(I have never seen it recorded that on the day of the assassination they were fixing the rug or something, and furniture from the Oval Room was piled out in the corridor, with the rocking chair on top, as if the occupant was moving.)"

 

Then this, which deserves to be quoted at some length (pp. 6-7):

 

"... I came to later in the afternoon on learning that the Dallas police had arrested a left-wing, pro-Castro sympathizer.  It flashed: which 'they' had done what?  It did not surprise me that such a man might be arrested, and I was not disposed to think it impossible he was guilty.  But I knew the Nation now.   I knew Dallas just well enough to assume the police would be incompetent.  I knew Texas well enough to think someone there would try to shoot the man who was said to have shot the President.  I knew the rest of the country would never believe it.  It was clear: We had to get custody of Oswald. [Emphasis in original.]

 

Washington was empty.  There was almost no one to tell this to save men to stricken to care, or too stupid to understand.  Air Force One returned, but there was no way to speak to the new President or his men.  The Cabinet had been halfway across the Pacific, en route to Japan, when the assassination occurred. Its plane got back to Andrews Air Force Base at midnight, and here commenced a decisive experience.  I made my way up and down the hierarchy of those waiting, and then those arriving, pleading: We had to get custody of Oswald.  [Emphasis in original.]  But with no success.  I kept it up until Oswald was shot.  I then realized that it is possible to grow enormously successful and powerful in America without knowing that the world is a dangerous place.

 

I suppose I had always realized this, but never in a way that made any difference to me.  In the weeks that followed it sank in.  It seemed to me that unless the murder of Kennedy and of his accused assailant was remorselessly investigated, a penumbra of suspicion would grow around the American national government such as would darken its moral authority for a generation to come, and who could say what might happen in the interval?  John Macy, then Chairman of the Civil Service Commission, shared this view.  [See reference to Macy and Maurice Stans by me, in his thread, supra.]  Together, and singly, we went round the capital much as I had made my way among the throng at Andrews Air Force Base.  At best we encountered incomprehension; at worst, the suspicion that we thought there had been a conspiracy. [Emphasis in original.]  We did not; we were merely convinced that significant portions of the public would believe there had been one unless the inquiry went forward with this preeminent concern in mind.  [Emphasis in original.]  I went to New York. Commentary and America published powerful editorials affirming my point.  But all for nothing, as we learned later from Edward Jay Epstein's Inquest, and from the public opinion polls that preceded and followed his study.

 

And so I failed, and at some cost.  I was never, thereafter, quite trusted by the new Administration.  This sank in and at length I left."

 

I could go on; there is more, but you should by now get the essence.  If you like you can find more on my Twitter feed by searching for Oswald -- if that is you overcome your fear of the dreaded trackers which your trusty anti-virus software has evidently warned you of.  (No doubt it safe to assume that yes I am something of a "walking STD" with regard to internet surveillance.)  One bit of tantalizing information you and others might take interest in: On the morning of the assassination, Moynihan had been at the Georgetown home of perhaps the President's closest friend, the artist Bill Walton, going over plans for the redevelopment of Pennsylvania Avenue, which Mrs. Kennedy at least had taken in interest in.  When news came from Dallas they made their way to the White House -- the Washington Post ran a moving picture the next day on the front page of Moynihan holding up a grieving Walton outside on the WH lawn.  A few days later Walton would be sent by the Kennedys as a special emissary to Moscow charged with carrying a message to the Soviet Union.  The contents of that message are unknown to this day.

 

One more point here: You didn't check the sources which you requested, and now apparently think you can say they don't say what they in fact do say, and call my integrity into question in the process.  I may be new here but let me say to you: watch it with that kind of stuff.

 

This response being long enough, I will address your other comments shortly.

 

 

Edited February 27 by Matt Cloud

[Matt Cloud]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

In THIS POST he writes:

BTW, might RFK have wanted Oswald silenced after 11/22?  Something to think about.

Quite an accusation, disguised as a question, and without evidence.  Since we now know Ruby was more involved in the assassination of JFK than was previously thought, it seems highly improbable that RFK would have anything to do with Ruby’s instructions.

 

Now to this.  "BTW, might RFK have wanted Oswald silenced after 11/22?  Something to think about."

This too is a question, and if you gathered the inference, which evidently you did, I commend you on your reading comprehension, although, again, I don't think you comprehend the layers of leveraged compromise that were occurring, and what keeps the Kennedys, as well as other interested parties, from wanting a fulsome explanation for the reasons behind the assassination to become publicly known and understood in a complete sense.  Indeed, that may be very much why Robert Kennedy Jr. is in the current presidential campaign at all.

Let's discuss.

The Kennedys were briefed on Cuban operations during the 1960 campaign from Dulles and other official sources, through official channels.  There is however a very valid and outstanding question as to how they learned about specific anti-Castro assassination attempts.  This was of course an issue of long-standing contention both during the Kennedy-Nixon campaign and after.  Official channels deny having briefed Kennedy on this.  So, were unofficial channels briefing Kennedy on this?  Perhaps.  If so, who could that be?  I have a candidate: Leo Cherne, Director of The International Rescue Committee, who it happens was also the number one advocate for Hungarian, yes, Hungarian, and other European refugee assistance during the Cold War.  (And Vietnamese, too.)  Cherne of course would be the longest-serving member on PFIAB, that's the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board.  It was his IRC that Oswald wrote upon returning to the US from the Soviet Union.  Cherne's sculptural busts adorn the highest offices in the land to this day.  Going back to 1952 at least, Cherne had 5412 clearance -- the "Special Group" -- the group charged with formulating Castro operations, as well as various aliases known by CIA.  I suggest looking him up on the Mary Ferrell site.  I could go on for days about him, and his influence.  For more see his biography Rescuing The World and, not least Covert Action Network: Progressives, The International Rescue Committee and the CIA by a something Chester.  William Casey had worked for Cherne in the 30s as did, from 1953-55 circa, and not incidentally, Pat Moynihan.

So -- where am I going with this?

In his oral history interview with the Kennedy Library in 1972, which it happens I, as Moynihan's special assistant from 1996-2001, submitted to the Kennedy Library finally with Moynihan's approval that year -- it had sat on the shelves in his Senate office during the intervening interval, unapproved as it were for submission to the National Archives, of which the JFK Library, as with all presidential libraries since the Cold War began, is a part -- Moynihan describes how he came to be associated with the Kennedy's and the Kennedy campaign.  (I have the forwarding correspondence under my signature on Moynihan's senate office letterhead to the Library, btw, and can provide if so inclined.  Or you could ask NARA for a copy.)

https://static.jfklibrary.org/y572d180n8d2i1800r3sh73j62jp320k.pdf?odc=20231115180801-0500

Moynihan explains in the interview (pp. 6-7):

"Robert Kennedy was regarded as a nasty little man who could not be trusted. Alexander Bickel knew he should not be attorney general. Everyone knew that John Kennedy was in the pay, in some vague way, of Cardinal Spellman [Francis J. Spellman]. And these were still days when the Catholic issue was very serious, the anti-Catholicism was the anti-Semitism of the liberals. It was very real, and part of the quality of a man like Arthur Schlessinger to have seen that, gotten involved, and to have taken his stand with it, as against the Stevenson thing. I remember going to a breakfast where Schlessinger came through and, talking to the professoriate of central New York, said, “Well, Stevenson is Greek, Kennedy’s a Roman.” Well, as I recall, that was a sufficiently classicalist reference to satisfy us, or either….

But I wrote that. That’s how I got involved. I had known Robert Kennedy during the labor investigations. Kenny O’Donnell [Kenneth P. O’Donnell] had once called me from the governor’s office to see if I could do some things. I did then. I had met Teddy [Edward M. Kennedy] in the old man’s [Joseph P. Kennedy’s] apartment in New York. Things like that. Not much. But when Robert Kennedy came up to speak…. We had a dinner at which, I guess, John Kennedy was supposed to speak--Democratic state dinner in the spring of ’57, I suspect, in Albany. Robert Kennedy came instead--it was one of those things--and I met him at the airport and escorted his wife [Ethel Kennedy]. And so I knew some people. In Los Angeles, I wrote Harriman’s seconding speech and did a lot of running back and forth."

Moynihan you see had effectively been a courier among the various interests in terms of garnering support for the Kennedy campaign.  I ask you -- I ask anyone -- is it possible that in negotiating the complexities involved in aligning the various factions that would be needed to mount a successful bid for the presidency had sensitive information say on Cuba been passed from say Leo Cherne, via his former assistant Moynihan, to say Joe Kennedy that might have given the Kennedys valuable inside information on Cuba policy and what was or wasn't being done?  Is it further possible that Joe Kennedy had negotiated a deal with certain elements of organized crime who would favor a more aggressive anti-Castro policy from a new administration and in return, the new attorney general might lighten up on the mobs anti-labor practices?  What would be needed to seal such a deal between the Kennedys and the mob?  Some votes in Chicago's Cook County?  Was Jack Ruby who, as you rightly point out, may have been far more involved in the assassination of Oswald than previously understood, an agent in some way of this deal?  Was it THIS deal that Ruby's shooting of Oswald was intended to protect?  Is THAT why Moynihan knew "we must get hold of Oswald?"  (See Daniel P. Moynihan Coping: On The Practice of Government (1974), pp. 6-7, emphasis in original; see also my previous reply to you, supra.)

Before rushing to answer let me provide one other question or, if your prefer, insinuation, that may be useful in any response: Did Joe Kennedy pay the ransom money to bring the Bay of Prisoners back from Cuba, after negotiations with Donovan, Prettyman, Boerum (the brother-in-law, remember, of John McMahon)?  Had Donovan negotiated similar deal for Gary Powers, who was de-briefed by the U-2 program's John McMahon, upon his return to the U.S.?

Again, chew on all of this.  I'll dispense with your remaining incalcitrant comments in due course.

Edited February 27 by Matt Cloud

[Matt Cloud]

5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

In THIS POST he writes:

At the most basic level, for now, the point is this: The Tippet's of CT are much closer to TX than they have let on and they are much closer to covert operations (AF reconnaissance certainly and possibly too the Flying Tigers, eg) than they have let on.

Like my father, J.D. Tippit of Connecticut was a WWII veteran and a reservist.  This hardly makes either man a spook.

 

So far as I am aware, your father' activities are not at issue here; J.D. Tippit's are.

[Matt Cloud]

5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

In THIS POST he wrote:

If this is correct, that the Tippets of CT sold out Elizabeth Bentley, I would not have put any faith in Tina Tippet explaining to you John Kowalski any more than what was already in the 1963 FBI report.  And all the more now, since Tina Tippet is deceased. 

The Tippits of Connecticut DID NOT sell out Elizabeth Bentley.  They did what any responsible citizens should do after receiving such a call.  The FBI knew all about Emile Kardos/Emil Gardos as well as Elizabeth Bentley.  All had been on the radar for years.  This attempt to vilify the Tippits  of Connecticut seems odd, until we examine the next quote from Matt.

 

You've skipped over the unknown contingency here -- "if this is correct" -- and affirmatively declared the unknown to be known.  You do not know -- and as yet have provided no evidence -- for what the Tippits' motivations may have been with respect to notifying presumably at least the FBI about the call from the woman whom they may well have known was in fact Elizabeth Bentley.  

And if the Tippits cannot be accurately described as having "sold out" Bentley, circumstances do not preclude the inference that someone or someones may have.  It is therefore necessary to inquire as to who had knowledge of the call.  Here's a list, complete or not:

1. Bentley -- if she in fact made the call -- knew of the call;

2. The Tippits of CT knew of the call having received it;

3. The FBI, part of still-then Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy's Justice Department, evidently were informed of the call by the Tippits.

Any others?

There is a process of logic to work through here.  Follow it.

Edited February 27 by Matt Cloud

[Matt Cloud]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Also, I’m shocked that Matt seems so opposed to the important efforts by John Kowalski to obtain contemporaneous notes Mrs. Tippit made of the call(s) from the anonymous caller.  Don’t get discouraged John!

And in THIS POST Matt writes:

uh ... because obviously she [Bentley] is linking the Tippits of CT to Tippits of TX and knows some things about Oswald's back story that could blow the entire assassination story.  The Tippits of CT are very much involved in perpetuating that story. 

The Tippits of Connecticut WERE NOT “very much involved in perpetuating the story.”  By 11/30/1963 the basics of LHO’s biography were well known.  Pointing to an LHO living with a Hungarian “father and uncle” hardly backs the Official Story.  It points, clearly and directly, to a second LHO! 

The statement that the Tippits were not involved in the conspiracy is a conclusion without support to the very question at issue.  

You don't seem to understand the basics of the logic at play here when you write, "Pointing to an LHO living with a Hungarian “father and uncle” hardly backs the Official Story.  It points, clearly and directly, to a second LHO! "  That's right, it deviates from the official story.  The issue may not be that the Tippits know this.  The issue may be that someone outside of the conspiracy knows this -- namely, Elizabeth Bentley.  She's famous, and could make a stink.  She's the person who died after revealing this information.

The Tippits didn't go to the newspapers let's say with this story and say, "Hi, were the Tippits from Texas actually, and my husband who at least in 1965 will work in DC for the Secretary of the Air Force, but will also become a cartoonist in 1964, who has the same name as the slain officer in Texas, but forget that, he and I got a call from a woman who says Lee Harvey Oswald is not whom the papers are saying he is."  They didn't do that.  Indeed, over the ensuing years and decades it could be argued that they did not bring any attention to themselves with regard to this subject, notwithstanding having kept -- flaunted? -- the "Tippit" name.  I expect even, moreover, that they did not object to Daley Myers' descriptions of themselves, and the caller -- a "crank" in his words -- in his book With Malice.  Meanwhile their brother went on to play roles in movies in which this very subject could and should have been brought up -- Wayne Tippit, I mean, in Oliver Stone's 1991 film, JFK.  He was also a producer or advisor of some sort on that film I gather.

Anything else?

And next time you respond, if you respond, address me directly.  Don't write about me in the third-person as though I am not here.  Are we clear?

Edited February 27 by Matt Cloud

[Geo Kozma]

 

QUOTE: PFIAB, that's the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board

 

Hi Jim, thanks for your advice that I am not able to express myself clearly.

 

QUOTE: PFIAB, that's the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board

 

Dear MATT CLOUD  (or Jim, or someone who has time for it)

 

 may I ask you to look up the name of

an advisor to the Presidents whose name is Paul Kecskeméti?

-an uncle of my mom, pronounce it CATCH kEY MATE

 

this is his story: 

1

i am in my own bubble about the  CORVINA COMIC booK from Oswalds shelf ( first sold by Marina in 63 and then popped up at some net site where they sell book--(put up by David Josephs  or maybe paul Joliffe on 2019 here on EDU foR...on the Harvey and LEE topic- I first found it in January 024

2

The TipőIt Call had the Tip that Oswald had  2  Jewish Uncles  after his Dad.

Gardos/h an Weinstock.

Because I looked it up on jewishgen.com- as surely the FBI did it too in a real archive.

...and we  now know that GARDOs/H exists and existed even then

in the Archive on the Oswald Family Tree (once among 200 other spouses in 300 years).

And Jewish names were limited officially (which were allowed)

so everyone can have everyone as a "relative"

but the name limit causes the families to become phantomized

...no one can know for sure

(except personal hometown legends and the moree famou rabbis.)

SO anyone could have done the Call - even a Dulles envoy - as he surely knew the family name-sakes

 

and simply wanted to save Kissinger from being shamed for an ancestor - or name-mate rather -

who married an Oswald maybe centuies earlier.

 

 

 

 

3

 

i remember that my Uncle   was never mentioning

that beyond his Harvard professorship he had other tasks

- like working with his ex student Kissinger

before the university in the child rescue in 1940

and after Uni at RAND on the Strategic concept debated in 1958 ..

 

.so  he came to HUNGARY to visit us  in 80 as a pensioner 

 and said that he did not get a  Visa because   the "KGB  imagined that he works for the CIA hahaha".

 

and I never understood (I was 25 y old then) how could the KGB know anything...and how could they make such a mistake..he is just a Prof...

 

4

 

Only a few years ago in Kissinger's bio did I find that Uncle Goaty (from his name 's meaning - that was his nickname)  did work for the RAND etc

 

and did start in the Oval Office

(due to friends of the Roosevelts like  T S Eliot - a CIA sponsored artist  -

and his Friend Karl MAnnheim at LSE

- who was assigned to start UNESCO in PAris by the Pres...

and he  was a bro-in-low for my grand uncle this Harvard prof of Kissinger

... (and I am their legal heir as a grandnephew  since they had no kids) .

BUt the State dept ordered a diplomat friend (called Harry LeBovit

to become a Curator and send the inheritance to the  Charity of the Pope...

 

5

But all this I know now due to the CORVINA comic BOOK - because that is the only MATERIAL EVIDENCE THAT YES  OSWALD HAD A GARDOSH UNCLE ---

WORKING IN THE CORVINA PRESS BUDAPEST...

 

who must have sent this book to him...

...so the CIA knew Oswald had Jewish  KGB relatives

but it was probably 

evident they could not order him to go to DAllas or any such thing...

So the book was left to be received.

 

6 

 

Anyway Gardos has had a type writing assistant in CORVINA - my mom (in her 30s)

And her name was the same as her Uncle's in the Oval Office whom Gardosh has (maybe)

  met as a foster parent  (like the Furmans from the Oswald clan) in the Child rescue movement in 1940...

 

7

..I now begin to grasp...why we never got our inherited money

from the "Curators" ordered by the State Dept to guard my grand uncle's death bed...

because any public Process might have been dangerous..

not just about the  boring fact that he was among the strategist analysts around 5 Presidents -

but that he... simply was not thinking that Oswald will ever be known...

so he did accept to send the book of Uncle GArdosh to nephew Oswald...

And it was dangerous for Kissinger, his colleague at RAND then  to be found

exchanging posts with a KGB officer

 

8

So I am here in Budapest and i find it not easy to find this PFIAB,

that's the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board -

if ever this Paul Kecskemeti had any official task  in the Oval office... or in the OSS ( his reports do appear on a Berkeley homepage and on the RAND homepage)

 

 

9 

 

 

And when  Kissinger has died  - than  the  historical situation causing the Curator effect has changed.

The Curators chose to offer the money - or a part of it - to the Pope in cca 95 ...

My bosses in the Jewish Community say they will maybe ask some compensation to our family...But of course that money has been already shared with others in need. (Hi estate was worth of 250 000 USD in today' prices I was told.

I was told  I better not mention in the official Jewish Community letter to the Pope  these Oswald legends...

I might just mention that a later political actor wanted to hide some of his Hungarian  Jewish Name-Sakes..and  him working at the Stat Dept some people may have organized this inheritance redirection to a Papal Charity (intad of a Jewish one.) (BTW half of it went to a Jewish themed Opera of the diplomat' wife's late father)

My Aunt (at 95 yrs old) - the Niece of the Harvard Uncle and Prof of Kissinger says she does not want to know about all  this.  (She lot her Dad - killed in 44 - and now in 80 he lot her Dad's Twin)So she needs to feel the anger - for her grief. 

 

15

 

but everyone is like Jim Hargrove  who says-

 

I do not understand what this guy i saying.

 

I have finished my m.A. in a US university in English. I publish in English since 20 years in the www.sfsalvo.com

how come no one ever has told me  till now that my rambling is unintelligible.

 

I am saying that I belong to thisssss  family tree of the Tippit Call...

... suddenly finding a KGB and a CIA  related person in my family

...and then Jim Hargrove, a very intelligent and clear-minded person (who is starting this topic)

 

says that i am not able to express myself in a clear English

spoken by me since 50 years - since I lived in London half a year at 20. 

 

i know Jim you do not want to chase me away

 

but i think i have finished sharing here anyway. i have nothing more to say.

 

I did not see anyone interested - maybe my English did

 

really get worse as I am aging.

 

And actually  i am glad that it is not such an important issue.

The Tippit Call data were public data? Who cares? 

Yes the Tippit Call data were true? who cares?

 

Okay we knew Oswald had Jewish relatives  anyway...

and yes he also had Kissinger relatives, fine.

Okay he had them in Budapest...staying in contact by post.

Okay, Kissinger knew it and wanted to hide it... so what? 

 

...okay so he arranged to take away the inheritance of 

some nameless distant relatives behind the Iron curtain.

To avoid any public hearing about a presidential advisor colleague.

A few thousand dollars may not even be too comfy

in a country where the average monthly salary and pension is 300 USD.

 

Okay let us go on,  as it is still not solving the problem

of how many Oswalds could have played his role of not doing anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

Edited February 28 by Geo Kozma

[Matt Cloud]

16 minutes ago, Geo Kozma said:

 

QUOTE: PFIAB, that's the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board

 

Dear MATT CLOUD 

 

I may ask you to look up the name of an advisor to the Pesidents whose name is Paul kecskemét? 8an uncle of my mom, pronounc it CATCH kEY MATE)

 

this is his story: 

1

i am in my own bubble about the CORVINA cOMIX booK from Oswalds shelf ( first sold by Marina in 63 and then popped up at some net site where they sell book--8put up by David Josephs on 2019 here on EDU foR...on the Harvey and LEE topic- I first found it in January 024

2

The Tip  It Call had the Tip that Oswald had  2  Jewish Uncles  after his Dad.

Gardos/h an Weinstock.

 

and we  now know that GARDOs/H exists in the Archive on the Oswald Family Tree (once among 200 other spouses in 300 years). And Jewih names were limited so everyone can have everyon as a "relativ" bu the name limit causes the familyies to become phantomized...no on can know for sure (except personal hometown legends)

 

And we now know - since 2019 from his wies lwtters  from the 60s and 70s that they  tranlated w his wife another Hun Jewish novelist 's  book too..,

3

 

i remember when my Uncle  - who was never mentioning that beyond his harvard professorship he had other tasks - like working with his ex student Kissinger before the university in the child rescue in 1940 and after Uni at RAND on the Strategic concept debated in 1958 ..

 

.so  he came to HUNGARY to visit us  in 80 as a pensioner  ssince 64-65) and said that he did not get a  Visa because   the "KGB  imagined that he works for the CIA hahaha".

 

and I never understood (I wa 25 y old then) how could the KGB know anything...and if they did know it -- how could they make such a mistake..he is just a Prof...

 

4

 

Only a few years ago in Kissinger's bio did I find that Uncle Goaty (from his name a nicknamw)  did work for the RAND etc

 

and did start in the Oval Office (due to friends of the Roosevelts like  T S Eliot - a CIA sponsored artist and his Friend Karl MAnnheim

- assigned to start UNESCO in PAris by the Pres...and he  was a bro-in-low for my grand uncle this Harvard prof of Kissinger... (and i am their legal inheritor as a grrandnephew  since they had no kids) . BU the State dept ordered a diplomat friend to become a Curator and sent the inheritance to the  Charity of the Pope...

 

5

But all this I know now due to the CORVINA comic BOOK - because that is the only MATERIAL EVIDENCE THAT YES  OSWALD HAD A GARDOSH UNCLE ---IN THE CORVINA PRESS BUDAPEST... who mut have sent thi book to him...(so the cIA knew Oswald had kGB reatives but it was probably  evident they could not order him to go to DAllas or any such thing...

 

6 

 

Anyway Gardos has had a type writing asitant in CORVINA - my mom (in her 30s)

And her name was the same as her Uncle's in the Oval Office whom GArdosh has (maybe)  met as a foster parent in the Child rescue movement in 1940...

 

My mom never knew - I suppose - as much  about hr Uncle as GArdosh did ---who wasa KGB agent pretending to be just the Sub Chielf of the Communist Party of the USA...

 

7

 

..I now begin to grasp...why we never got our inherited money from the "Curators" ordered by the State dept to guard my grand uncle's death bed...because any public Process might have been dangerous..not juat about the  boring fact that he was among the strategist analyists around 5 Presidents - but that he... simply was not thinking that Oswald will ever be known...so he did accept to send the book of Uncle GArdosh to nephew Oswald...

And it was dangerous for Kisinger, his colleuge at RAND then  to be found exchanging pots with a KGB officer (although he did have extravagant  secret contacts later with forbidden Vietnameese Commie chiefs too)

OKAY it i just a fantasy - there are other ways- to send a book by post was not controlled in 1963 in Hungary...

 

But the CIA did control Oswalds Post minimally to control Oswald's KGB related wife..(who sold this book before the FBI made a list of  LHOs books.)

8

So I am here in Budapest and i find it not easy to find this PFIAB, that's the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board - if ever this Paul Kecskemeti ha any offical task  in the Oval office...( whose reports do appear on a Berkeley hompage and on the RAND homepage)

 

Or maybe it was just a legend too, just imagined by Oswald's Uncle Gardosh.

9 

Please do realize that the TIPPIT CALL DATA ARE IN PUBLIC RECORDS - so the woman caller MUST NOT HAVE SEEN little Oswad with Gardosh (who turnd to Budapesht in 1948 anyway)....If I was Dulless and heard that name Gardosh and Weinstock I would have gine next day to the Jewish Archive in NYC or elsewehere - and would have found name-rhyme (Jewish names are only random rrhymes not indication of family nexus) of Kissinger. 

 

Or more probably - I would have known the Jewish DAd of Oswald since decades sinc the Foster FAmily project of thes families...

AND I (dulles) MYSLF WD HAV ent a hungarian OUNDING WOMAN TO ACCUSE O of having JEW in the family...creating fer and chaos...

 

10

A REAL FAMILY CONNECTION IS NOT PROVED BY JEWISH NAME RHYMING...due to the limited allowed names  for the real family trees are only existing in a few RAbbi families.

But if a REAL POST POPS UP LIKE the CORVINA PRESS COMIC BOOK - where Gardosh is working...well..that is a proof that yes the woman on Tippit Call knew  about this link.

11

It still does not answer the hudreds of other dilemmas around OSWALD...but now I see how and why my Unce wass not allowed to visit us...And also I see why....oh... why ...this Uncl (who lovded his nieces my mom and aunt)  SIGNED HIS WILL with the "friends" as Curator (whom he knew from the State dept since years. 

12

I aked my lawyer. The Reason for the Curators in the WILL tht it  was a  "Historical situation"  is TRUE ... And the curators had to look for us WHEN THAT SETUP CHANGES. (= when HK dies)

13 

Of course the historical setup (the duty to keep Kissinger safe  because his leniency in this old  colleague's communication between Gardosh and Oswald was just a basic decency - how could they know the future of Oswad.

 

14

 

 

And when the FUTURE became a preent - than strted the  historical situation... Which led the Curators to offer the money - or a part of it - to the Pope...My bosses in the Jewish Community say they will maybe ask some compensation to our family...But of course that money has been aready shared with others in need.

I think i better not mention in the official Jewish Community letter to the Pope  these Oswald legends...

 

I might jut mention that a later political actor wanted to hide some of his Hungarian  Jewish Name-Sakes..and  him working at the Stat Dept some people may have organized this inheritance redirection to a Papal Charity (intad of a Jewish one.) (BTW half of it went to a Jewish themed Opera of the diplomat' wife's late father)

My Aunt (at 95 ys old) - the Niece of the Harvard Uncle and Prof of Kissinger says she does not want to know about all  this.  (She lot her Dad - killed in 44 - an now in 80 he lot her Dad's Twin)

 

15

 

...As a private person I have no right to write to the Pope's Charity. 

So I am grateful for this debate site...maybe it is not too much off-topic...after all these are real people..with real uncles and nephews.  As he TIPPIT CALL alleges.

 

NOW I KNOW WHAT MUST B INCLUDED IN THE LETTER

...  him working at the Stat  Dept some people may have organized this inheritance redirection to a Papal Charity (intead of a Jewish one.)

And the family WAS punished by the "historical situation". And no lawyer will ever find anything  illegal about this.

 

16 

Should Kissinger  and DULLES have told the WARReN COMMITEE  that YES WE KNEW OSWALD  all along ...as he was  MAYBE linked by some ancetral  same-name links to me, the Kissingers(and to my old Prof, Goaty (Kecskemeti) ...but...i never told him to kill the President?

ANd they would have tried to explain

YOU KNOW JEEWISH NAMES WERE LIMITED TO TOWNS (like Kissingen or Kecskemet) or basic TRAITS like BIG SMALL WHITE BLUE RED (Rubin) etc and from each there exist several 100 000 people who ar NOT FAILY RELATION AT ALL.

 

17

 

Excuse me. It is still a shocking news for me - I was never interested in details of this past tragedy...

 

I hope my text is sometimes clear. tomorrow i will look for more typos.

Or I may start a new thread about private UNKNOWN PEOPLE HUT BY  SOME INVOLVEMENT  IN THE TIPPIT CALL ON THE OSWALD LEGEND AND THE CORVINA CARTTON POSTAGE FROM BUDAPESHT HUNGARY

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

Dear Geo Gozma:

There's a lot here.  All of it fascinating -- and important.  Thank you for sharing.  It will take some time to process but I intend to and, along with others here of course, break-down what you have written for further analysis and discussion with you and others here.  Again -- thank you.

Edited February 27 by Matt Cloud

[Matt Cloud]

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

Also, I’m shocked that Matt seems so opposed to the important efforts by John Kowalski to obtain contemporaneous notes Mrs. Tippit made of the call(s) from the anonymous caller.  Don’t get discouraged John!

 

I see now I did not address this claim.

 

I am in no way opposed to obtaining any information from the Tippits and their descendants, or from any one else.  My only suggestion for those seeking to obtain such information is to go in to any endeavor with as much information about the possible angles and motivations of those from whom information may be sought.  It was not clear that those discussing such efforts here, with respect to the Tippits specifically, understood the ramifications that Paul Joliffe's analysis suggested -- that the caller had to be Bentley.  Have at it one and all!  Please report back if you like, but please do prepare yourselves with information to ask the right questions.  Simple.

 

Finally, if my recommendation for further investigation of the Tippits reveals some motive, hidden or otherwise, as you suggest, Jim, to malign evidently without motive -- and remember, I agree with the "Oswald Project" thesis generally -- then the opposite becomes true: your recommendation to not ask question and to take their story at face value, reveals your motive. To wit: to not raise questions as to the implications of the Bentley call; to not discuss the matters that this thread, ever since I came on and pointed out the suspicious timing of her death, has been about.  Again, these are the ramifications.  It should be quite evident by now why the fact of the call, and the facts surrounding the call, had been concealed for so long, and then distorted since.

 

This understanding of course would put you and your associate John Armstrong into the dreaded "limited hangout" category.  Reveal some truth -- the fact of the call but then distort its implications and other facts surrounding it.  You are not a disinterested analyst here.  Not at all.

Edited February 27 by Matt Cloud

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

So you didn't check the Post article.  I see.  Take your issue with the paywall up with The Post; or go to another resource where the article can be obtained.  If you had bothered, performed a modicum of due diligence, or at least come back to me saying I don't see that quote rather than stating foolishly that the quote does not exist, and implying I had been deceitful not once but twice in as many days, a quick search with google of Moynihan "we must get hold of Oswald" (minus the "a"), would return this:

And, of course, you misquote me.  After pointing out that the third source was behind a paywall, I said, “Nowhere have I seen ‘We must get a hold of Oswald.’” If it is in the Post article as you indicate, fine, you were right.  But you have already misquoted me in the paragraph above, and so I will try to see if for myself. [emphasis added]

[Jim Hargrove]

4 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

Now to this.  "BTW, might RFK have wanted Oswald silenced after 11/22?  Something to think about."

This too is a question, and if you gathered the inference, which evidently you did, I commend you on your reading comprehension, although, again, I don't think you comprehend the layers of leveraged compromise that were occurring, and what keeps the Kennedys, as well as other interested parties, from wanting a fulsome explanation for the reasons behind the assassination to become publicly known and understood in a complete sense.  Indeed, that may be very much why Robert Kennedy Jr. is in the current presidential campaign at all.

Let's discuss.

The Kennedys were briefed on Cuban operations during the 1960 campaign from Dulles and other official sources, through official channels.  There is however a very valid and outstanding question as to how they learned about specific anti-Castro assassination attempts.  This was of course an issue of long-standing contention both during the Kennedy-Nixon campaign and after.  Official channels deny having briefed Kennedy on this.  So, were unofficial channels briefing Kennedy on this?  Perhaps.  If so, who could that be?  I have a candidate: Leo Cherne, Director of The International Rescue Committee, who it happens was also the number one advocate for Hungarian, yes, Hungarian, and other European refugee assistance during the Cold War.  (And Vietnamese, too.)  Cherne of course would be the longest-serving member on PFIAB, that's the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board.  It was his IRC that Oswald wrote upon returning to the US from the Soviet Union.  Cherne's sculptural busts adorn the highest offices in the land to this day.  Going back to 1952 at least, Cherne had 5412 clearance -- the "Special Group" -- the group charged with formulating Castro operations, as well as various aliases known by CIA.  I suggest looking him up on the Mary Ferrell site.  I could go on for days about him, and his influence.  For more see his biography Rescuing The World and, not least Covert Action Network: Progressives, The International Rescue Committee and the CIA by a something Chester.  William Casey had worked for Cherne in the 30s as did, from 1953-55 circa, and not incidentally, Pat Moynihan.

So -- where am I going with this?

In his oral history interview with the Kennedy Library in 1972, which it happens I, as Moynihan's special assistant from 1996-2001, submitted to the Kennedy Library finally with Moynihan's approval that year -- it had sat on the shelves in his Senate office during the intervening interval, unapproved as it were for submission to the National Archives, of which the JFK Library, as with all presidential libraries since the Cold War began, is a part -- Moynihan describes how he came to be associated with the Kennedy's and the Kennedy campaign.  (I have the forwarding correspondence under my signature on Moynihan's senate office letterhead to the Library, btw, and can provide if so inclined.  Or you could ask NARA for a copy.)

https://static.jfklibrary.org/y572d180n8d2i1800r3sh73j62jp320k.pdf?odc=20231115180801-0500

Moynihan explains in the interview (pp. 6-7):

"Robert Kennedy was regarded as a nasty little man who could not be trusted. Alexander Bickel knew he should not be attorney general. Everyone knew that John Kennedy was in the pay, in some vague way, of Cardinal Spellman [Francis J. Spellman]. And these were still days when the Catholic issue was very serious, the anti-Catholicism was the anti-Semitism of the liberals. It was very real, and part of the quality of a man like Arthur Schlessinger to have seen that, gotten involved, and to have taken his stand with it, as against the Stevenson thing. I remember going to a breakfast where Schlessinger came through and, talking to the professoriate of central New York, said, “Well, Stevenson is Greek, Kennedy’s a Roman.” Well, as I recall, that was a sufficiently classicalist reference to satisfy us, or either….

But I wrote that. That’s how I got involved. I had known Robert Kennedy during the labor investigations. Kenny O’Donnell [Kenneth P. O’Donnell] had once called me from the governor’s office to see if I could do some things. I did then. I had met Teddy [Edward M. Kennedy] in the old man’s [Joseph P. Kennedy’s] apartment in New York. Things like that. Not much. But when Robert Kennedy came up to speak…. We had a dinner at which, I guess, John Kennedy was supposed to speak--Democratic state dinner in the spring of ’57, I suspect, in Albany. Robert Kennedy came instead--it was one of those things--and I met him at the airport and escorted his wife [Ethel Kennedy]. And so I knew some people. In Los Angeles, I wrote Harriman’s seconding speech and did a lot of running back and forth."

Moynihan you see had effectively been a courier among the various interests in terms of garnering support for the Kennedy campaign.  I ask you -- I ask anyone -- is it possible that in negotiating the complexities involved in aligning the various factions that would be needed to mount a successful bid for the presidency had sensitive information say on Cuba been passed from say Leo Cherne, via his former assistant Moynihan, to say Joe Kennedy that might have given the Kennedys valuable inside information on Cuba policy and what was or wasn't being done?  Is it further possible that Joe Kennedy had negotiated a deal with certain elements of organized crime who would favor a more aggressive anti-Castro policy from a new administration and in return, the new attorney general might lighten up on the mobs anti-labor practices?  What would be needed to seal such a deal between the Kennedys and the mob?  Some votes in Chicago's Cook County?  Was Jack Ruby who, as you rightly point out, may have been far more involved in the assassination of Oswald than previously understood, an agent in some way of this deal?  Was it THIS deal that Ruby's shooting of Oswald was intended to protect?  Is THAT why Moynihan knew "we must get hold of Oswald?"  (See Daniel P. Moynihan Coping: On The Practice of Government (1974), pp. 6-7, emphasis in original; see also my previous reply to you, supra.)

Before rushing to answer let me provide one other question or, if your prefer, insinuation, that may be useful in any response: Did Joe Kennedy pay the ransom money to bring the Bay of Prisoners back from Cuba, after negotiations with Donovan, Prettyman, Boerum (the brother-in-law, remember, of John McMahon)?  Had Donovan negotiated similar deal for Gary Powers, who was de-briefed by the U-2 program's John McMahon, upon his return to the U.S.?

Again, chew on all of this.  I'll dispense with your remaining incalcitrant comments in due course.

And none of this offers any evidence that would prompt your question, “BTW, might RFK have wanted Oswald silenced after 11/22?"

[Jim Hargrove]

4 hours ago, Matt Cloud said:

So far as I am aware, your father' activities are not at issue here; J.D. Tippit's are.

Cute, but I’m sure you are aware that the point was that service in WWII and the Reserves hardly makes Mr. Tippit of Connecticut—or may father—a spy.  You seem so suspicious of the CT Tippits that you said, “I would not have put any faith in Tina Tippet explaining to you John Kowalski any more than what was already in the 1963 FBI report.”  How do you know that?  Do you really want to discourage original research.  Tina Tippit told John Kowalski that her mother had taken notes of several sessions with the anonymous caller.  You really want to discourage an attempt to find those notes, even if it is a long shot?

UPDATE -- I see you've addressed the issue of John Kowalski's research while I was posting.  I'll get to that when time permits.

[Matt Cloud]

4 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

And, of course, you misquote me.  After pointing out that the third source was behind a paywall, I said, “Nowhere have I seen ‘We must get a hold of Oswald.’” If it is in the Post article as you indicate, fine, you were right.  But you have already misquoted me in the paragraph above, and so I will try to see if for myself. [emphasis added]

What tripe.