Did Ruth Paine lie to authorities?

[Sandy Larsen]

I've seen Greg Doudna come to Ruth Paine's defense so many times that I was under the impression that she was accused of lying a lot to assassination investigators and the Warren Commission.

But when I tried to make a list of her lies, I couldn't come up with much.

So did she lie or didn't she? Did she plant any evidence?

Of course, I understand that reported lies and deceptions will be largely allegations based on circumstantial evidence.

 

[Micah Mileto]

Kudos to Lifton for towing the line of "Oswald kept his secrets from everybody, including his wife. He was a good actor". Marina did say that if she could ask Lee any question now, she wouldn't ask if he killed Kennedy because she already knows he didn't, she would ask "who are you?".

[Tony Krome]

Take your pick;

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because I didn't know there was a job open.

Mrs. PAINE. Through my neighbor, we heard there was an opening at the Texas School Book Depository.

[Greg Doudna]

3 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Take your pick;

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because I didn't know there was a job open.

Mrs. PAINE. Through my neighbor, we heard there was an opening at the Texas School Book Depository.

This one can be answered. It is Linnie Randle who dissembled there, Ruth Paine was the truthful one. According to Buell Wesley Frazier, who, against interest (he loved his sister), backed up Ruth Paine on this one. Buell Wesley Frazier, Steering Truth (2021), 34-35.

There is more to it than even this in print from Buell Frazier. Early news accounts credited Oswald getting a job in the TSBD to learning from a neighbor employed there (Buell Frazier) that there was a job opening. 

It was known in the neighborhood that Marina's husband lacked a job, with Marina about to have a child. Sometime in the week of Oct 7-11 Linnie, in touch with the neighborhood, knew this information. Being helpful, Linnie asked Buell if there might be a job where he worked (TSBD). Buell then checked and told Linnie that yes, there was (or could be, whatever exactly). 

On Mon Oct 14 there was the outdoor informal women's coffee klatch next door to Ruth Paine's house attended by Ruth and Marina. Linnie walked over and in the discussion over Lee's unemployment predicament Linnie volunteered there could be a job opening at TSBD where her brother worked--this from Linnie told by Ruth in her testimony, denied by Linnie, Ruth's testimony corroborated by Buell in Steering Truth. 

Ruth jumped on this, asked Linnie if she would call and see if Lee could be gotten a job there. Linnie declined. Marina begged Ruth to call. Ruth called and inquired of Truly, who said send him in to apply. The rest is history.

There was post-assassination motive for Linnie to distance herself from what otherwise would have been a perfectly generous and well-meaning small act of assistance to someone in the neighborhood: helping Oswald find a job.

Ruth has been unjustly and unmercifully pilloried for six decades for that small act of generosity intended to help a poor man without a job who wanted to work. As Judge Griffin put it, "No good deed goes unpunished". 

Edited March 1 by Greg Doudna

[Tony Krome]

26 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Ruth called and inquired of Truly

Mr. TRULY. She said, "Mr. Truly,"---words to this effect---you understand---" Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you can use another man,"

Why would you be "wondering if you can use another man" if you knew definitely they were looking for someone.

 

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Mr. TRULY. She said, "Mr. Truly,"---words to this effect---you understand---" Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you can use another man,"

Why would you be "wondering if you can use another man" if you knew definitely they were looking for someone.

Your words, "definitely...looking for someone". Not Ruth's, not Buell's, not anyone's directly quoted words.

Buell says after Linnie asked him if there could be a job possibility at TSBD for Lee (this before the Oct 14 coffee klatch), that Buell asked Shelley at work, who checked with Truly and then Shelley got back to Buell and told Buell the unknown Lee would be welcome to apply, understood by Buell as a green light. (In other words, the answer did not come back to Buell, as it could have, "No, we don't need anyone right now.") Buell told Linnie, and on Monday morning Oct 14 Linnie walked over and told the women including Ruth and Marina that. 

If I heard a rumor that a company might be hiring, and I contacted the owner doing the hiring, I wouldn't start first words in the door blasting away on selling myself. I might ask an opening question like that before wasting time if I had heard wrong. That's how Ruth's opening question of a cold-call phone call reads to me. 

But let me turn the question around on you: why do you suppose Ruth would make such a call at Marina's urging, and why would Marina be excited about it, if something had not been said about a job possibility at TSBD? 

Again, Buell Frazier, Steering Truth, 34-35. All I can say is, Buell supports Ruth's testimony. Of course, you are free to consider Buell a l iar too, people will believe what they want. Also, I do not want to be in the position of having to defend or explain every syllable Ruth Paine said as if that is my obligation. I pointed you to Buell Frazier as corroborating testimony and you can judge for yourself. 

Edited March 1 by Greg Doudna

[Paul Cummings]

2 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

 

If I heard a rumor that a company might be hiring, and I contacted the owner doing the hiring, I wouldn't start first words in the door blasting away on selling myself. I might ask an opening question like that before wasting time if I had heard wrong. That's how Ruth's opening question of a cold-call phone call reads to me. 

 

 

 

I would expect an action like this from Marguerite Oswald not Ruth Paine. IMO

 

[Sandy Larsen]

If Oswald's getting a TSBD job really came about the way the official narrative says, then I think the question about the job being available or not is splitting hairs. Not really important.

But the fact that the plotters needed the patsy to be working at a designated place for the shooting tells me that the plotters must have had control over the whole process of Oswald getting the job.

Since the plotters were likely CIA, I believe that Oswald, Ruth, and Truly (or somebody with a great deal of influence over Truly) were all CIA assets. And that Ruth's handler instructed her to call Truly, Oswald's handler instructed him to do what Ruth told him to do, and that Truly was likewise told. And Oswald got the job that way.

(BTW, I believe also that they were all compartmentalized, and didn't know that each other was CIA.)

That way they could tell an "innocent" truth about how Oswald got the job, even though it was really the CIA plotters who got the job for him.

 

[David Von Pein]

38 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Since the plotters were likely CIA, I believe that Oswald, Ruth, and Truly (or somebody with a great deal of influence over Truly) were all CIA assets. And that Ruth's handler instructed her to call Truly, Oswald's handler instructed him to do what Ruth told him to do, and that Truly was likewise told. And Oswald got the job that way.

"Any reasonable person can obviously see how utterly impossible it is to "connect" all of these unconnected threads of SHEER HAPPENSTANCE regarding [Ruth] Paine, [Roy] Truly, [Wesley] Frazier, and [Linnie Mae] Randle in order to weave the magical type of "Oswald Was Planted In The TSBD" plot that conspiracists imagine took place. But just because nobody has yet been able to come close to weaving that magic carpet of conspiracy involving all of those innocent people (like Frazier, Paine, and Truly), it won't stop conspiracy theorists from pretending that a massive pre-assassination "plot" involving those very people really did occur in 1963." -- David Von Pein; July 1, 2008

More:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / Was Lee Oswald Planted In The TSBD By Plotters?

 

Edited March 1 by David Von Pein

[Tony Krome]

6 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

It was known in the neighborhood that Marina's husband lacked a job, with Marina about to have a child. Sometime in the week of Oct 7-11 Linnie, in touch with the neighborhood, knew this information. Being helpful, Linnie asked Buell if there might be a job where he worked (TSBD). Buell then checked and told Linnie that yes, there was (or could be, whatever exactly). 

Was the WC aware that during the week of Oct 7-11, that enquires were made at the TSBD, prompted by the knowledge that Oswald was looking for work?

 

 

[Greg Doudna]

9 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Was the WC aware that during the week of Oct 7-11, that enquires were made at the TSBD, prompted by the knowledge that Oswald was looking for work?

Not that I know of.

I don't believe Buell Wesley Frazier told of the role he played in asking at work about a job for Lee, or whether they were hiring, as he does on pp. 34-35 of Steering Truth, before that book, which was published 2021. (If he did before 2021 I missed it.) Though there may be allusions in early newspaper reports from the days following the assassination that reflect it.

Buell acknowledges in Steering Truth that what he describes differs from what Linnie had said in her Warren Commission testimony, but he says Linnie really did make inquiry of him re a job for Lee because she was a caring person about others around.

"During her testimony, Linnie stated that she couldn't remember saying anything to me about inquiring about work for anyone, but I can tell you she did mention it to me in passing. Linnie had a way of looking out for people. She really cared about others and hated to see them go through difficult times. She never directly told me to talk to anyone about a job. I made the decision to ask on my own.

"I went to work the next day and spoke to Mr. Shelley about whether they were hiring, and he talked to Mr. Truly. Later that afternoon, Mr. Shelley informed me that anyone wanting a job could come in and fill out an application.

"I came home and told Linnie what Mr. Shelley had said. A few days later, Linnie told me that the husband of the lady living down the street with Mrs. Paine had gotten a job at the Texas School Book Depository."

Buell does not explicitly say the inquiring of Linnie and his own checking with Shelley at work about whether they were hiring, occurred prior to Monday Oct 14 the morning of the coffee klatch (i.e. back into the week of Oct 7-11). That relative time-sequencing is reconstructed by me because I do not see the timeline working starting from Oct 14 for what Buell describes. I am locating the first sentence of the final two above as having occurred prior to Oct 14; Buell's inquiry in person with Shelley about a job for Lee and/or hiring situation at TSBD as having also occurred prior to Oct 14; then the coffee klatch Oct 14 where Linnie passes on what she has learned from Buell, Ruth calls that day; Oswald goes first thing Tue morning Oct 15 to apply with Truly, Truly hires him; Oswald starts work day one on the job Oct 16.

I think what was otherwise a neighborhood in which the women were in continual contact and knowledge of goings-on would have meant it likely Linnie knew through the grapevine the week of Oct 7-11 that Marina's husband was having difficulty finding work, Linnie checked with Buell about it, then Buell checked with Shelley at work, got back to Linnie with the green light he received, Linnie made a point on Monday morning Oct 14 of finding Ruth and Marina and telling them. Then after the assassination Linnie not surprisingly clammed up about wanting to tell of any role she had in having helped Lee find that job due to the horrifying way that had turned out.

 

[Tony Krome]

11 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

"I went to work the next day and spoke to Mr. Shelley about whether they were hiring, and he talked to Mr. Truly. Later that afternoon, Mr. Shelley informed me that anyone wanting a job could come in and fill out an application.

"I came home and told Linnie what Mr. Shelley had said.

In the above I don't see where Shelley indicates a job opening. I see a courteous response from Shelley stating that "anyone" looking for work is welcome to apply. So if the above account is true, Frazier told Linnie that "anyone" is welcome to fill out an application. 

It follows that Linnie passed that information onto Ruth at the coffee meet on the 14th. At this point, a simple phone call to Oswald from Ruth or Marina could have been made suggesting he make his way to the TSBD to apply.

I don't see how Linnie directly told Ruth there was an opening;

Mrs. PAINE. Through my neighbor, we heard there was an opening at the Texas School Book Depository.

[Cory Santos]

12 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

This one can be answered. It is Linnie Randle who dissembled there, Ruth Paine was the truthful one. According to Buell Wesley Frazier, who, against interest (he loved his sister), backed up Ruth Paine on this one. Buell Wesley Frazier, Steering Truth (2021), 34-35.

There is more to it than even this in print from Buell Frazier. Early news accounts credited Oswald getting a job in the TSBD to learning from a neighbor employed there (Buell Frazier) that there was a job opening. 

It was known in the neighborhood that Marina's husband lacked a job, with Marina about to have a child. Sometime in the week of Oct 7-11 Linnie, in touch with the neighborhood, knew this information. Being helpful, Linnie asked Buell if there might be a job where he worked (TSBD). Buell then checked and told Linnie that yes, there was (or could be, whatever exactly). 

On Mon Oct 14 there was the outdoor informal women's coffee klatch next door to Ruth Paine's house attended by Ruth and Marina. Linnie walked over and in the discussion over Lee's unemployment predicament Linnie volunteered there could be a job opening at TSBD where her brother worked--this from Linnie told by Ruth in her testimony, denied by Linnie, Ruth's testimony corroborated by Buell in Steering Truth. 

Ruth jumped on this, asked Linnie if she would call and see if Lee could be gotten a job there. Linnie declined. Marina begged Ruth to call. Ruth called and inquired of Truly, who said send him in to apply. The rest is history.

There was post-assassination motive for Linnie to distance herself from what otherwise would have been a perfectly generous and well-meaning small act of assistance to someone in the neighborhood: helping Oswald find a job.

Ruth has been unjustly and unmercifully pilloried for six decades for that small act of generosity intended to help a poor man without a job who wanted to work. As Judge Griffin put it, "No good deed goes unpunished". 

And when Ruth called for Lee (the violent abusive husband) how did she get the number to call Truly at the Book Depository?   From the phone book?

Edited March 2 by Cory Santos

[Greg Doudna]

1 hour ago, Cory Santos said:

And when Ruth called for Lee (the violent abusive husband) how did she get the number to call Truly at the Book Depository?   From the phone book?

I believe Ruth testified she knew of no allegation that Lee beat Marina. She certainly testified she knew nothing of any violence of Oswald toward Marina or otherwise herself. 

Yes, why not the phone book, I assume so. How else? What do you think? What is your point?

[Kirk Gallaway]

13 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Mr. TRULY. She said, "Mr. Truly,"---words to this effect---you understand---" Mr. Truly, you don't know who I am but I have a neighbor whose brother works for you. I don't know what his name is. But he tells his sister that you are very busy. And I am just wondering if you can use another man,"

Why would you be "wondering if you can use another man" if you knew definitely they were looking for someone.

 

Egad Tony, " words to the effect".? So this your lead to establish RP is lying?

There are no recordings of the call. As far as the Truly account, do you remember every detail of a phone call you made over a month ago?

So from this second hand "Tony transcript," people are suppose to make an RP defense? 

Greg answered anyway. Some people are more presumptuous than others. Some might say "I understand you got a job there, and I know somebody", and some may say "I'm wondering if you could use another man" if that was said at all!

Cory:And when Ruth called for Lee (the violent abusive husband) how did she get the number to call Truly at the Book Depository?   From the phone book?

Yes Cory, I'm not sure how your reference to the violent husband fits in , but everyone  had phone books back then. And you could pretty much  find the great majority of people and even more businesses because there were no robocalls and every business wanted to be contacted!