Hit List-- The Systematic Murders of JFK Witnesses

[Kevin Balch]

Here is Charnin’s analysis of the FBI deaths:

https://whokilledjfk.net/strange_fbi_deaths.htm#:~:text=In 1977%2C seven top FBI officials due to,specific group within a very short time interval.

Right away I see a couple of problems.

1. There are only seven cases. Even an experiment in coin flipping with precisely known probabilities requires several dozen coin tosses to come within a few percent of the true odds. Would you expect a public opinion poll of 1000 respondents to be reflected in a group of 7 people?

2. While Charnin claims his heart attack probability of 0.004137 per year is age-adjusted (but does not show his calculations), it’s hard to believe. This is equivalent to a non-heart attack probability of 99.6 yielding a 10 year probability of heart attack of only 4%. This would put all these men in the low cardiac risk class of less than 5% chance of a heart attack in 10 years. By way of comparison, the age-adjusted central death rate for men over 65 in 1977 is about 7%.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/17085-heart-risk-factor-calculators

While the ages of most of these men are not known (Sullivan was 65 and Alan Belmont was 70), they are very likely at least in their 50s and 60s. How realistic is a low cardiac risk in an age bracket where cardiac risk rises rapidly?

[Sandy Larsen]

15 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

 

Wow... a young, clean shaven, pigtail-less Willy Nelson!

 

[Kevin Balch]

On 7/26/2024 at 7:52 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Not to mention dozens of other murder cases that are described in detail in Hit List.

In many cases, the witnesses are assumed as well as their murders.

Really?  Strange approach to a sample selection.  Why not also include the obvious murders of multiple witnesses during later JFKA investigations-- by Jim Garrison and Congress?

Primarily, because the various death rate probabilities change significantly over the period, unlike in a single year. Life expectancy goes up for the population as a whole but the witness cohorts are aging. Murder and drug death rates increased during the 1960s and 70s. Accident rates went down as a result of safety regulations. One of the primary assumptions in the Poisson analysis used by Chernin is that probabilities remain constant over the period of interest.

 

The death rate due to homicide was roughly 5 per 100,000 in the U.S. 1964.

Many of the murders/suspicious deaths took place in Dallas. In 1964, the Dallas murder rate was over 20 per 100,000. What is the death rate for strippers, organized crime figures, cops, drug dealers and mercenaries? How would you even find such information?

Where are you getting the 1,400 number of key witnesses, Kevin?

If we look at this from the perspective of the putative "Clean Up Squad," I would suggest that they were highly selective in choosing their targets for assassinations-- key witnesses who knew too much and were also at risk of publicly exposing the JFK murder plot (e.g., journalists and indiscreet loud mouths, like Jack Zangretti.)

They also needed to be selective to prevent obvious public evidence of their assassination ops.  For example, if they had murdered every doctor and nurse who had seen JFK in the Parkland ER, the public would have known something was up.

The 1400 (actually 1400+) comes from Chernin himself which is apparently the number of witnesses listed in Who’s Who in the JFK Assassination.

Why wasn’t the cleanup squad concerned about the 5 of 7 FBI agents that mysteriously died of heart attacks before testifying to the HSCA?

What kind of conspiracy has 1400+ witnesses with potentially vital evidence but still remains unsolved?

A more salient question is, what happened to the statistically expected homicides in your sample?

Instead of the statistically expected 1 death by homicide, (at most) we have 20-- even based on your inflated 1,400 figure for the population sample!  Highly improbable, to say the least.

The statistics on total deaths are far more robust than for specific causes of death that are at least an order of magnitude or more smaller and will show great variability, especially in small populations. It is an excellent verification that the population being evaluated is not being massaged. 

 

What about C.D. Jackson and Mary Pinchot Meyer?

C. D. Jackson is presumably pretty high up in the conspiracy to cover up the assassination. If someone at that level gets bumped off, wouldn’t other high level conspirators start getting nervous? Allen Dulles died in 1969. Was he bumped off as well?

Meanwhile, as the data indicates, the murders of key JFKA witnesses clustered around three major investigations--

1) the immediate aftermath of JFK's murder/WC investigation, 2) the Garrison investigation of Clay Shaw, and 3) the HSCA investigation.

That would require a statistical time series analysis which I don’t believe even Chernin performed.

Not all key witnesses were at risk of going public with their evidence debunking the Warren Commission Report narrative.  That variable contributed to the selectivity of assassination targets-- as I mentioned in the case of the Parkland ER staff.

As examples, many witnesses were threatened and cowed into silence.

And you're conveniently ignoring the evidence of confiscated manuscripts during the murders of Jim Koethe, Dorothy Kilgallen, Florence Pritchard Smith, and Mary Pinchot Meyer.

I agree that witnesses (at least their careers) were threatened and gaslighted. 

You're ignoring too many damning details about these statistically improbable murders

When a clean up squad with heart attack-inducing agents are involved, you can get some pretty statistically improbable outcomes.

My advice to the forum is that people should read the book and judge for themselves.

I agree. But I would add that they also look for a review of Hit List and Chernin’s analysis by someone versed in probability and statistics.

I would also suggest thinking about what is involved in staging accidents and suicides. And the plausibility of the cases discussed in Hit List. How plausible is it that the cleanup squad rapidly converged on Jim Reeves plane crash site to divert search and rescue teams in order to snatch his briefcase?

 

[Pat Speer]

15 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

 

Greetings. I have argued with people about this for decades now. They add into the pool of "witnesses" people on the periphery who have died, but not those who did not die. If one were to expand the number of "witnesses" to include every potential witness and journalist to touch the story, the size of the pool would be many times that used.

Now, I personally think the deaths of Rosselli and Giancana and others in the mid-70's is far more suspicious than the deaths of Lee Bowers, William Whalley, and James Worrell in the 60's.  But it's tough to estimate the life expectancy of mob figures, and separate out the many other reasons someone might want them dead. 

[W. Niederhut]

29 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Greetings. I have argued with people about this for decades now. They add into the pool of "witnesses" people on the periphery who have died, but not those who did not die. If one were to expand the number of "witnesses" to include every potential witness and journalist to touch the story, the size of the pool would be many times that used.

Now, I personally think the deaths of Rosselli and Giancana and others in the mid-70's is far more suspicious than the deaths of Lee Bowers, William Whalley, and James Worrell in the 60's.  But it's tough to estimate the life expectancy of mob figures, and separate out the many other reasons someone might want them dead. 

Pat,

We've already been through this-- toward the top of the thread.

The actuarial probabilities are clearly anomalous.

And, beyond actuarial probabilities, the specific forensic details are especially damning, in case after case.

Critics of the damning HIt List data typically tend to cherry pick one or two cases where the evidence is sketchy and less than conclusive, while glossing over the obvious murders of witnesses who were at risk of exposing the WCR fraud.

Edited July 28 by W. Niederhut

[Bill Brown]

21 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

So, Bowers couldn't possibly have suffered a finger injury after this Mark Lane interview, Bill?

Also, why are you referencing a debunked JFKA source like Posner-- a man whose work has no credibility?

Can you, at least, acknowledge that Bowers was threatened prior to his untimely death?

 

"So, Bowers couldn't possibly have suffered a finger injury after this Mark Lane interview, Bill?"

After?  The Kook theory goes that Bowers was kidnapped, threatened and had a finger cut off during the winter of '63/'64.  Bowers was filmed for Rush To Judgement in 1966.  Also, Bowers died in 1966.  How much of a window was there between his filmed interview with Lane and the time of his death?  I suppose you're insinuating that the conspirators/kidnappers took him away, threatened him, cut off his finger and released him only to finally decide to kill him the following week or month?

Maybe you need to catch up.

 

"Also, why are you referencing a debunked JFKA source like Posner-- a man whose work has no credibility?"

I haven't referenced Posner at all, ever.

 

"Can you, at least, acknowledge that Bowers was threatened prior to his untimely death?"

I don't know that Bowers was ever threatened and neither do you.

 

[Bill Brown]

15 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

6:31

Now playing

 

 

Railroad Switchman Lee Bowers - Witness to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy

 

 

 

 

 

278K views10 months ago

 

HelmerReenberg

Lee Edward Bowers Jr. was a witness to the assassination of United States President John F. Kennedy in Dallas, Texas on ...

 

 

Reviewing Lee Bowers 11/22/1963 recollection statements in the Mark Lane documentary "Rush To Judgement" I don't see how anyone could "not" see Bower's credibility.

The man is intelligent, well spoken, calm, extremely detail orientated and sincere sounding. 

He is telling everyone this direct observation:

That he saw a commotion near the picket fence area and that something occurred during this commotion that was unusual enough for him to remember it being noticeably memorable such as a "flash of light or puff of smoke."  His words. 

Bowers also says with unambiguous clarity the time sequence of the shots he heard.

3 shots... knock...knock-knock.

One shot followed by two more shots almost on top of each other. Leading him ( Bowers ) to conclude that the last two shots could not have been fired by the same gun.

The FBI told him he was no expert in this area of physical science and he said he had to agree with them.

Wonder if the Warren Commission put any time investigating Bower's recollections of 3 cars coming into his lot just minutes before the shooting. One driven by a man talking into a hand held mike.

Were these Dallas PD, Dallas Sheriff, FBI, Army intelligence.

And don't forget another of Lane's interview subjects in Rush To Judgement.

The maintenance man who watched the whole shooing from on top of the Building Annex just South of Elm and Houston.

He described seeing a heavier set suited man running full speed along the backside of the picket fence area toward the Texas School Book Depository building within "seconds" of the shooting. Before anyone had run to the grassy knoll and parking lot beyond to flood that area.

 

 

 

 

 

I see you finally decided to actually watch the Bowers interview with Lane.  Now, do you still believe that Bowers ever had a finger cut off?

 

[Kevin Balch]

23 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Greetings. I have argued with people about this for decades now. They add into the pool of "witnesses" people on the periphery who have died, but not those who did not die. If one were to expand the number of "witnesses" to include every potential witness and journalist to touch the story, the size of the pool would be many times that used.

Now, I personally think the deaths of Rosselli and Giancana and others in the mid-70's is far more suspicious than the deaths of Lee Bowers, William Whalley, and James Worrell in the 60's.  But it's tough to estimate the life expectancy of mob figures, and separate out the many other reasons someone might want them dead. 

Finally, a sign of sanity!

The number of witnesses keeps changing and even the death lists are inconsistent.

A serial killer is able to get away with several dozen victims before caught but these victims are overwhelmingly very marginalized people such as prostitutes, transients, drug addicts or easily overpowered victims such as women, children or infirm people under their care.

To stage an accident, suicide or use a heart attack-inducing agent requires prolonged surveillance of the victim to understand their habits and schedules. It requires close access either through some sort of social contact or surreptitious entry into their living or working environments.

Murder clearance rates are currently somewhere around 50%. They were somewhat higher in the 1960s. How likely is it that the clean up squad hasn’t been caught.

Giancana and Roselli were no doubt involved in alot of other matters as well.

[Pat Speer]

25 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Pat,

We've already been through this-- toward the top of the thread.

The actuarial probabilities are clearly anomalous.

And, beyond actuarial probabilities, the specific forensic details are especially damning, in case after case.

Critics of the damning HIt List data typically tend to cherry pick one or two cases where the evidence is sketchy and less than conclusive, while glossing over the obvious murders of witnesses who were at risk of exposing the WCR fraud.

The vast majority of suspicious deaths, as I recall, are of people whose deaths were ruled to have been an accident, who ACTUALLY said very little to suggest a conspiracy. 

It is a mistake to throw them in with the murders of Rosselli and Giancana, IMO. 

 

 

Edited July 28 by Pat Speer

[Kevin Balch]

How many firearms produce a flash of light or smoke when fired in broad daylight? Unless the shooters were using a flintlock.

[Kevin Balch]

1 minute ago, Pat Speer said:

The vast majority of suspicious deaths, as I recall, are of people whose deaths were ruled to have been an accident, who ACTUALLY said very little to suggest a conspiracy. 

 

 

A good example is Hank Killam who occasionally worked with John Carter (who lived at 1026 N. Beckley) as a housepainter and whose wife worked for Jack Ruby. It’s never made clear what Killam knew or said about the JFK assassination, but for some reason, he was killed but neither his wife nor Carter.

I think part of the suspicious deaths are mentally disturbed people already at risk of suicide that latched on to the JFK assassination and the “small world effect” that sweeps up the most fleeting connection to the JFK assassination which expand the numbers of “witnesses”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-world_experiment

[W. Niederhut]

7 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

The vast majority of suspicious deaths, as I recall, are of people whose deaths were ruled to have been an accident, who ACTUALLY said very little to suggest a conspiracy. 

It is a mistake to throw them in with the murders of Rosselli and Giancana, IMO. 

 

 

C'mon, Pat.

I take it that you haven't read, or understood, the forensic details in the book?

Zagretty was shot in the mouth after telling people that Ruby was going to shoot Oswald?

Journalist Jim Koethe's journalistic notes go missing after he gets his neck broken?

A cop accidentally shoots journalist Bill Hunter in the heart by dropping his gun?

Dorothy Kilgallen's manuscript about Ruby and the JFKA goes missing after she and Pritchard Smith are found dead?

Mary Pinchot Meyer is killed by an expert assassin-- which Wistar Janney and Bill Bradlee know several hours before the police release an APB-- and James Angleton is later seen reading (and confiscating) her diary from her apartment?

William Sullivan tells friends that he suspects he will be murdered, then gets killed in a "hunting accident?"

George De Mohrenschildt gets shot in the head after his luncheon with Epstein, the day before his Congressional testimony.  The coroner's jury hears an intruder alert/burglar alarm go off in his home shortly before the gun shot?

Nothing to see here, folks.  Move along now.

[Kevin Balch]

8 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

C'mon, Pat.

I take it that you haven't read, or understood, the forensic details in the book?

Zagretty was shot in the mouth after telling people that Ruby was going to shoot Oswald?

Journalist Jim Koethe's journalistic notes go missing after he gets his neck broken?

A cop accidentally shoots journalist Bill Hunter in the heart by dropping his gun?

Dorothy Kilgallen's manuscript about Ruby and the JFKA goes missing after she and Pritchard Smith are found dead?

Mary Pinchot Meyer is killed by an expert assassin-- which Wistar Janney and Bill Bradlee know several hours before the police release an APB-- and James Angleton is later seen reading (and confiscating) her diary from her apartment?

William Sullivan tells friends that he suspects he will be murdered, then gets killed in a "hunting accident?"

George De Mohrenschildt gets shot in the head after his luncheon with Epstein, the day before his Congressional testimony.  The coroner's jury hears an intruder alert/burglar alarm go off in his home shortly before the gun shot?

Nothing to see here, folks.  Move along now.

Unless you know for sure that Zagretty was murdered after the JFK assassination, it’s just speculation. And why weren’t the others killed as well?

What did Koethe know that the other 5 in Ruby’s apartment didn’t know, including Senator, Droby and Sloan who did not experience suspicious deaths?

The cop shot Bill Hunter in a lounge in the Long Beach Police building. A strange place to stage an accident. And the investigation concluded it was an accident.

William Sullivan made that remark to journalist Robert Novak in 1972. The cleanup squad waited until 1977? If you thought you were at high risk of an “accidental” death, would you go hunting?

DeM was exhibiting mental instability before his staged “suicide”. Would a killer who already set off a burglar alarm proceed with the murder and take the time to make it look like a suicide or would they immediately leave? 

[Pat Speer]

9 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

C'mon, Pat.

I take it that you haven't read, or understood, the forensic details in the book?

Zagretty was shot in the mouth after telling people that Ruby was going to shoot Oswald?

Journalist Jim Koethe's journalistic notes go missing after he gets his neck broken?

A cop accidentally shoots journalist Bill Hunter in the heart by dropping his gun?

Dorothy Kilgallen's manuscript about Ruby and the JFKA goes missing after she and Pritchard Smith are found dead?

Mary Pinchot Meyer is killed by an expert assassin-- which Wistar Janney and Bill Bradlee know several hours before the police release an APB-- and James Angleton is later seen reading (and confiscating) her diary from her apartment?

William Sullivan tells friends that he suspects he will be murdered, then gets killed in a "hunting accident?"

George De Mohrenschildt gets shot in the head after his luncheon with Epstein, the day before his Congressional testimony.  The coroner's jury hears an intruder alert/burglar alarm go off in his home shortly before the gun shot?

Nothing to see here, folks.  Move along now.

Much of that is gossip, or information that has been skewed to be creepy.

For instance, Angleton... Not exactly a hero of mine. But the evidence strongly suggests he was told about the diary by his wife, who was friends with Meyer, who didn't want the affair with JFK to become public. As I recall, he ran into Ben Bradlee and his wife (Meyer's sister) after confiscating the diary, and offered it to them, but they told him he should destroy it, or some such thing. IOW, he did not grab the diary as an employee for the CIA, but as a husband and friend. 

As another example, Hunter. I seem to recall someone belatedly looked up his articles on the JFKA and they were all Oswald-did-it articles. There is no evidence he was a threat to anyone, and if he was well, geez, there are much simpler ways to kill someone than having them "accidentally" shot in a police station. 

I have been way deep in the weeds of the JFKA for decades now, and there are two incredibly clear facts, IMO.

1. Most of the stuff spewed in JFK books and websites is nonsense. 

2. But not all of it.

As stated, those interested in "suspicious deaths" should focus on the deaths of the 70's. I remember Gary Hart speaking about this and claiming he wasn't convinced there was a conspiracy to kill JFK until the witnesses he wanted to bring before the Church Committee started dying. 

It would be good to have a book on those deaths, IMO, that was not filled with the speculation rampant in the claims about the suspicious deaths of the 60's. 

 

[Joe Bauer]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Now, I personally think the deaths of Rosselli and Giancana and others in the mid-70's is far more suspicious than the deaths of Lee Bowers, William Whalley, and James Worrell in the 60's.  But it's tough to estimate the life expectancy of mob figures, and separate out the many other reasons someone might want them dead. 

Agree totally with Rosselli, Giancana and others in the mid 70s' but Lee Bowers I can't dismiss wholeheartedly because of the preposterous circumstances of his death and illogically quick church memorial service and cremation. 1 day?

And some hick little Texas boondocks town Justice of the Peace so blatantly ignoring "state law" requiring an autopsy when the victim dies in a violent manner.

Ferry and Banister totally suspicious to me.

Mary Meyer same thing.

And don't forget James Forrestal's 16th floor leap at Bethesda in 1954.

Edited July 29 by Joe Bauer