Hit List-- The Systematic Murders of JFK Witnesses

[Bill Fite]

3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

My point is that the specific forensic details of many of these deaths render mere actuarial probabilities less than significant-- although the actuarial stats indicate high improbability.

For example, it's one thing to estimate the actuarial probability of George De Mohrenschildt suddenly dying at age 66, and another thing to estimate the probability that he would suddenly die of a gun shot wound to the head the day before his scheduled testimony about the JFK assassination.  Why did De Mohrenschildt die on that particular day, rather than on one of the other 5,100+ days that had elapsed after JFK's murder?

     The same probabilistic logic applies to Giancana's murder, and most of these JFK witness murder cases.

IF the probability estimates are sound and extremely low that proves beyond a reasonable doubt (to borrow a phrase) that something suspicious is going on in the witness deaths.

Playing the devil's advocate here:

I would guess the probability of a mafia boss being murdered is actually several orders of magnitude higher than a person in the 1960s general population.  It probably increases a couple more orders of magnitude if he is scheduled to meet w the Feds, no?

Wouldn't the probabilities for murders of reporters who investigate criminal activities be much higher also?   As for stealing notes - why would the criminal have to necessarily be looking for JFK notebooks and not notes on some other crime?

I think you can make the anecdotal argument about specific deaths from now until forever and it won't convince many more people.  If that would work wouldn't it have closed the issue already?

On the other hand, if the estimated probabilities of the number of witness deaths are extremely low wouldn't that convince anyone other than an OJ jury member that something was going on?

You asked how I would estimate probabilities for witness deaths and I answered that question.

 

 

 

[Kevin Balch]

11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

What are the odds John Roselli shortly before his HSCA testimony would disappear and later be found having been garroted, stabbed and shot.  Legs cut off and stuffed in a 55 gallon oil drum with holes cut in it and wrapped in heavy chain.  Dropped in the ocean.  With all those contingences, probably pretty high. 

Separately, what are the chances the gases in his own decomposing body would be enough to lift it, the drum and chains to the surface to be washed up near shore? 

Roselli had already been before the HSCA. He had been recalled for further testimony. Is there anything in the testimony he did provide that would give a clue to his untimely demise?

Assuming a 55 gallon drum weighing 30 pounds containing a 200 pound man so that the bloating of the body expands its volume to entirely fill the drum and displace all water results in a drum density of 31 lbs/cubic foot. This results in a net buoyant force of about 240 pounds in saltwater. For a 42 gallon drum weighing 25 pounds, the resulting drum density is 40 lbs/cubic foot. In that case, the buoyant force would be about 133 pounds. So it would depend on the weight of the chains as well as the drum size.

The above results are an upper limit on the buoyant forces because 1) the body was dismembered and decomposing gases would escape the body and the barrel and 2) it would require the body having an initial volume of 24 gallons to expand by bloating to fill the barrel by a factor of at least 1.75.

So it’s not impossible that the barrel could rise to the surface but more specific info on Roselli’s weight, the barrel used and the weight of chain ballast used would give a more precise estimate. The big question is how much of the decomposition gases would escape the dismembered body.

The above was done without writing anything down on paper which is always error-prone but the numbers look reasonable.

[Ron Bulman]

12 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

Roselli had already been before the HSCA. He had been recalled for further testimony. Is there anything in the testimony he did provide that would give a clue to his untimely demise?

Yes, his prior HSCA testimony is likely the clue to his untimely demise.

Some young guys fishing in the bay.  They found an oil drum floating in the water.  They said they could see through the holes in the drum what they thought were human remains.  We had the maritime patrol boat pull it up to the shore.  We got a tow tuck to take it out. 

It was opened at the scene.  The tow truck driver helped us open it.  What did you see inside?  It was a big blob.  A blob?  Gray and white blob.  With a powerful smell.  It was bloated as it could get inside of this drum.

Here's a short video that show's the drum on the tow truck on the way to the medical examiners office.  What a dreadful job that would have been.

 Bing Videos

Pardon my proclivity for related (usually) music videos.

 

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

I don't believe LHO shot anybody in Dallas.  But, he was a witness to what went down and could have shed light on who the conspirators were, but....

Lee Harvey Oswald was interrogated for a total of approximately 12 hours between 2:30 p.m. on Friday, November 22, 1963, and 11:15 a.m. on Sunday, November 24, 1963. There were no stenographic or tape recordings of these interviews. 

[Ron Bulman]

On 4/26/2024 at 12:09 AM, Chuck Schwartz said:

I don't believe LHO shot anybody in Dallas.  But, he was a witness to what went down and could have shed light on who the conspirators were, but....

Lee Harvey Oswald was interrogated for a total of approximately 12 hours between 2:30 p.m. on Friday, November 22, 1963, and 11:15 a.m. on Sunday, November 24, 1963. There were no stenographic or tape recordings of these interviews. 

That does say a lot, Chuck.  Arrested for killing a Police Officer.  Interrogated for 12 hours.  No record of it but a few short questionable notes.  Regarding the killing of the President of the United States.  

[Kevin Balch]

I’m going through “Hit List” and one of victims is Betty McDonald who was a dancer at Jack Ruby’s club and who provided an alibi for the only suspect in the shooting of Warren Reynolds. Betty McDonald was later arrested for an unrelated matter and was found dead in her jail cell.

I reviewed Reynold’s FBI statement taken on January 20, 1964. In the statement, Reynold’s is pretty sure the gunman he saw leave the scene of the Tippit shooting was Oswald which what he told the Warren Commission. So the shooting of Reynolds two days AFTER talking to the FBI could not have changed his testimony and it can’t be a motive for shooting Reynolds or the death of McDonald.

I’m not sure how useful Reynolds would have been as a witness. When he was on the porch of the used car lot, he was at least 100 feet away from the northwest corner of Patton and Jefferson. Jefferson is about 60 feet across so Reynolds Reynolds was probably no closer to the suspect than maybe 70-80 feet. Why would anyone be worried about Reynolds when Callaway already ID’d Oswald?

It’s strange that Reynolds claimed to look under the cars at the Texaco station yet did not find the suspect’s jacket.

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Kevin Balch said:

It’s strange that Reynolds claimed to look under the cars at the Texaco station yet did not find the suspect’s jacket.

It is strange.  Strange he was looking under cars for jackets or anything else.  Why?  I don't recall but is anything said about him or anyone else saying they saw something thrown under a car?

[Kevin Balch]

9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

It is strange.  Strange he was looking under cars for jackets or anything else.  Why?  I don't recall but is anything said about him or anyone else saying they saw something thrown under a car?

He said he was looking for the suspect not the jacket. Poor wording on my part. If he actually was looking under the cars how could he miss the jacket? My guess is he embellishes his stories. He did work for a used car lot.

I don’t think Reynolds shooting has anything to do with Tippit or the JFKA. If they waited two months to get his statement, they must not have thought it too important.

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

 If he actually was looking under the cars how could he miss the jacket? My guess is he embellishes his stories.  >>> He did work for a used car lot.<<<

"He did work for a used car lot."

Ha!

Is there any more bottom-of-the-barrel sales position than that of "used car salesman?"

It's always been a traditional American cultural joke that there is no lower integrity sales job.  Lower than building lots in the desert, life insurance to the near-death elderly, refrigerators to Eskimos, you name it.

One could be a convicted felon and be hired to sell used cars without even submitting a resume.

My brother once traded in a junker to a used car salesman.

The very next buyer of that car had the engine blow up with huge plumes of black smoke billowing right in the middle of an intersection within two days of purchasing it. That furious buyer threatened the used car lot seller to give him his money back ..."or else."

The used car seller did a background check on the car and called up my brother in a screaming rage ..."Hey you SOB...you didn't tell me you bought that car from a junkyard!"

My brother chimed back..."you didn't ask!"

Same answer FBI agent James Hosty gave when asked by a later JFKA hearing committee why he didn't tell the Warren Commission he destroyed his Dallas office's Oswald file the day of Oswald's killing by Jack Ruby...."they didn't ask!"

Edited Tuesday at 04:59 PM by Joe Bauer

[Charles Blackmon]

On 4/23/2024 at 11:13 PM, Ron Bulman said:

What are the odds John Roselli shortly before his HSCA testimony would disappear and later be found having been garroted, stabbed and shot.  Legs cut off and stuffed in a 55 gallon oil drum with holes cut in it and wrapped in heavy chain.  Dropped in the ocean.  With all those contingences, probably pretty high. 

Separately, what are the chances the gases in his own decomposing body would be enough to lift it, the drum and chains to the surface to be washed up near shore? 

What are the odds that the lamestream media would totally ignore this story in combination with the other witnesses who were violently knocked off before they were scheduled to testify?

[Ron Bulman]

Who would have been supervising/authorizing the hit list by the time of the HSCA.  The time when seven former top FBI agents involved in the investigation died, along with John Rosselli, Sam Giancana and George De Mohrenschildt among others?

Helms was out in 1973, Carter appointed Stansfield Turner at the end of January 1976.  In between, appointed by Ford was George H W Bush.  

Turner was a newbie.  Some think GHWB was CIA connected before 1963.  Might he like Dulles in 1963 have still had connections as a former director.  Speculation I realize.  Food for thought.

[W. Niederhut]

11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Who would have been supervising/authorizing the hit list by the time of the HSCA.  The time when seven former top FBI agents involved in the investigation died, along with John Rosselli, Sam Giancana and George De Mohrenschildt among others?

Helms was out in 1973, Carter appointed Stansfield Turner at the end of January 1976.  In between, appointed by Ford was George H W Bush.  

Turner was a newbie.  Some think GHWB was CIA connected before 1963.  Might he like Dulles in 1963 have still had connections as a former director.  Speculation I realize.  Food for thought.

Good question, Ron.

GHWB was a CIA old-timer by the 1970s, and a lot of his old Company colleagues were still around after Helms and Angleton were gone.

Some prominent GHWB Company associates were Ted Shackley, William Casey, and Porter Goss.  Shackley was in charge of JMWave during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and was later forced out of the Company, temporarily, by Stansfield Turner.  He had worked with Bill Harvey in the early 60s.

Casey was an old OSS man who knew Wild Bill Donovan, and emerged as CIA Director in the Reagan/GHWB administration.

Goss officially left the Company in the early 70s, but was later appointed CIA Director by George W. Bush.

Are there any CIA historians on the Education Forum?

Edited Thursday at 04:48 PM by W. Niederhut

[Joe Bauer]

Who was the director who was found dead in his little boat after going out for his daily morning sail?

Now THERE'S a fishy event death if there ever was one.

[Kevin Balch]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Who was the director who was found dead in his little boat after going out for his daily morning sail?

Now THERE'S a fishy event death if there ever was one.

William Colby. There was also John Paisley.