LBJ - RFK Feud

Ron Bulman · April 19

I know it started before the JFK administration so it's relevant to the JFKA in that respect. RFK went ballistic, tried to subvert LBJ as VP at the LA DNC convention in 1960. And that it went on from there.

I was surprised to see this featured at the top of the page on MSN yesterday. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen or Heard it. Because, I can't hear it, the volume is so low. The volume on my pc is turned up full blast. Other things with audio I view are fine. With one exception. A video I watched earlier about Jimi Hendrix opening for the Monkey's. For it I scrunched down with my ear near the lap top speaker and watched out of the corner of my eye. A really interesting video, 12 minutes long. This one is closer to an hour. Anyone else have a similar problem with this?

The Intense Feud Between Lyndon B. Johnson & Robert F. Kennedy | White House Tapes | Timeline | Watch (msn.com)

W. Niederhut · April 19

Ron,

The volume of this video is low in parts.

If I recall correctly, Phillip Nelson wrote at length about RFK's hostile relationship with LBJ in his book, LBJ-- Mastermind of the JFK Assassination.

RFK, reportedly, referred to LBJ derisively as, "Colonel Cornpone," during JFK's presidency.

P.S. I can't picture Hendrix opening for the Monkees. Who came up with that weird venue?

Ron Bulman · April 19

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ron,

The volume of this video is low in parts.

If I recall correctly, Phillip Nelson wrote at length about RFK's hostile relationship with LBJ in his book, LBJ-- Mastermind of the JFK Assassination.

RFK, reportedly, referred to LBJ derisively as, "Colonel Cornpone," during JFK's presidency.

P.S. I can't picture Hendrix opening for the Monkees. Who came up with that weird venue?

Dick Clark. Seriously. Hendrix bailed after a few gig's.

Ron Bulman · April 19

It's working now. Here we go W.

Kevin Balch · April 19

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I know it started before the JFK administration so it's relevant to the JFKA in that respect. RFK went ballistic, tried to subvert LBJ as VP at the LA DNC convention in 1960. And that it went on from there.

I was surprised to see this featured at the top of the page on MSN yesterday. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen or Heard it. Because, I can't hear it, the volume is so low. The volume on my pc is turned up full blast. Other things with audio I view are fine. With one exception. A video I watched earlier about Jimi Hendrix opening for the Monkey's. For it I scrunched down with my ear near the lap top speaker and watched out of the corner of my eye. A really interesting video, 12 minutes long. This one is closer to an hour. Anyone else have a similar problem with this?

The Intense Feud Between Lyndon B. Johnson & Robert F. Kennedy | White House Tapes | Timeline | Watch (msn.com)

I inquired on another thread as to how LBJ was picked, perhaps as an insurance policy for an assassination should it be deemed necessary. I’ve seen summaries of Caro’s account and I am reading “The Road to Camelot” by Oliphant and Wilkie (2017) which says there is still no consensus on what actually happened in the final hours. Joe Kennedy said it was a master stroke. Look like it was a mix practical politics and misinterpreted understandings.

Robert Morrow · April 19

12 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

I inquired on another thread as to how LBJ was picked, perhaps as an insurance policy for an assassination should it be deemed necessary. I’ve seen summaries of Caro’s account and I am reading “The Road to Camelot” by Oliphant and Wilkie (2017) which says there is still no consensus on what actually happened in the final hours. Joe Kennedy said it was a master stroke. Look like it was a mix practical politics and misinterpreted understandings.

Lyndon Johnson blackmailed his way onto the 1960 Democratic ticket because relations with the Kennedys were so rancid that Johnson knew that the Kennedys would instigate a revolt in the Democratic caucus and have him REMOVED as Democratic Majority Leader. If JFK were to be elected, that gig would be OVER for Lyndon Johnson. As John Connally told LBJ "The Kennedys play for keeps." So Johnson and his crew that the only way to preserve LBJ's political career was to go for the Vice Presidency despite the fact that for months LBJ had told people both publicly and privately that he would NEVER take a VP slot from the hated Kennedys.

LBJ was following the motto "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

John Kennedy had already told Sen. Stuart Symington that the Vice presidency was his, but over the night from July 13th to July 14th something mysterious happened to upend those plans.

LBJ forced is way onto the 1960 Demo ticket and on the night of his election as VP in November, 1960 witnesses reported that they never saw a more UNHAPPY man than Lyndon Johnson on the night of the Democratic victory. On inauguration day 1961 LBJ's right hand man Bobby Baker told Don Reynold that JFK would not live out his term and would die a violent death.

That is what the LBJ people thought about the Kennedys.

JFK’s good friend Hy Raskin tells how Lyndon Johnson got on the Democratic ticket as VP in 1960: read the Dark Side of Camelot by Seymour Hersh, p.124-129:

Close JFK friend Hy Raskin: “Johnson was not being given the slightest bit of consideration by any of the Kennedys… On the stuff I saw it was always Symington who was going to be the vice president. The Kennedy family had approved Symington.” [Hersh, p. 124]

John Kennedy to Clark Clifford on July 13, 1960: “We’ve talked it out – me, dad, Bobby – and we’ve selected Symington as the vice president.” Kennedy asked Clark Clifford to relay that message to Symington “and find out if he’d run.” …”I and Stuart went to bed believing that we had a solid, unequivocal deal with Jack.” [Hersh, p.125]

Hy Raskin: “It was obvious to them that something extraordinary had taken place, as it was to me,” Raskin wrote. “During my entire association with the Kennedys, I could not recall any situation where a decision of major significance had been reversed in such a short period of time…. Bob [Kennedy] had always been involved in every major decision; why not this one, I pondered… I slept little that night.” [Hersh, p. 125]

John Kennedy to Clark Clifford in the morning of July 14, 1960: “I must do something that I have never done before. I made a serious deal and now I have to go back on it. I have no alternative.” Symington was out and Johnson was in. Clifford recalled observing that Kennedy looked as if he’d been up all night.” [Hersh, p. 126]

John Kennedy to Hy Raskin: “You know we had never considered Lyndon, but I was left with no choice. He and Sam Rayburn made it damn clear to me that Lyndon had to be the candidate. Those bastards were trying to frame me. They threatened me with problems and I don’t need more problems. I’m going to have enough problems with Nixon.” [Hersh, p. 126]

Evelyn Lincoln: In the famous photo of JFK and RFK huddling together, sitting on a bed, at the 1960 Democratic convention, they were trying to figure out how to keep Lyndon Johnson off the 1960 Demo ticket, but they could not because in the words of Lincoln, “Lyndon B. Johnson and J. Edgar Hoover had them boxed into a hole or a corner. They were absolutely boxed in” in regards to Hoover’s sexual blackmail of JFK. This shame is why the Kennedys never told anyone how LBJ got onto the ticket.

https://isgp-studies.com/american-security-council-membership-list

Evelyn Lincoln, President John F. Kennedy's personal secretary, claims in the FRONTLINE documentary that Hoovers's files on Kennedy's personal life were used to pressure Kennedy to choose Lyndon Johnson as his running mate in the 1960 Democratic convention. Mrs. Lincoln was the only other witness to some of the private conversations between John and Robert Kennedy on the day Johnson was chosen. ''When I came in (the hotel room), they were huddled together closely on the bed discussing this tremendous issue about Lyndon B. Johnson being on the ticket,'' says Mrs. Lincoln. ''Bobby would get up and go look out the window and stare. Kennedy would sit there and think. In fact, they hardly knew I came into the room they were so engrossed in their conversation ... trying to figure out how they could maneuver to get it so he wouldn't be on the ticket.'' Mrs. Lincoln told FRONTLINE that what she heard that day convinced her that the Kennedys were being blackmailed. ''One of the factors that made John F. Kennedy choose Lyndon B. Johnson for vice president were the malicious rumors that were fed to Lyndon B. Johnson by Edgar Hoover about his womanising,'' said Mrs. Lincoln. ''Lyndon B. Johnson and J. Edgar Hoover had them boxed into a hole or a corner. They were absolutely boxed in.''

"Hoover and Johnson both had something the other wanted,'' said Robert Baker, the Texan's longtime confidant. ""Johnson needed to know Hoover was not after his ass. And Hoover certainly wanted Lyndon Johnson to be president rather than Jack Kennedy. ""Hoover was a leaker, and he was always telling Johnson about Kennedy's sexual proclivities. Johnson told me Hoover played a tape for him, made by this woman who had rented an apartment to one of John Kennedy's girlfriends. And she turned the tape over to the FBI. '' One senior official, William Sullivan, said flatly that Edgar tried ""to sabotage Jack Kennedy's campaign. '' Surviving records suggest agents in charge had standing orders to report everything they picked up on him. ... Historians have tried repeatedly to analyze the tense negotiations between the Kennedy and Johnson camps that led to Johnson accepting the vice presidential slot. Kennedy himself told his aide Pierre Salinger cryptically that ""the whole story will never be known. And it's just as well it won't be. '' ""The only people who were involved in the discussions were Jack and myself,'' said Robert Kennedy. ""We both promised each other that we'd never tell what happened. '' According to new testimony, what happened was blackmail. For John Kennedy, a key factor in giving Johnson the vice-presidential slot was the threat of ruinous sex revelations that would have destroyed the ""American family man'' image so carefully seeded in the national mind and snatched the presidency from his grasp. The blackmailers, by this account, were Johnson himself -- and Hoover. The new information comes from Evelyn Lincoln, John Kennedy's personal secretary for 12 years, before and throughout his presidency, and herself a part of the Kennedy legend. Sexual blackmail During the 1960 campaign, according to Lincoln, Kennedy discovered how vulnerable his womanizing had made him. Sexual blackmail, she said, had long been part of Johnson's ""modus operandi'' -- abetted by Edgar. ""J. Edgar Hoover,'' Lincoln said, ""gave Johnson the information about various congressmen and senators so that Johnson could go to X senator and say, "How about this little deal you have with this woman? ' and so forth. That's how he kept them in line. He used his IOUs with them on what he hoped was his road to the presidency."

JFK to Pierre Salinger on how LBJ got to be picked as Vice President: “The whole story will never be known. And it’s just as well that it won’t be.”

Stuart Symington (spartacus-educational.com)

QUOTE

Following the nomination and selection of Johnson as the vice-presidential candidate Thursday night, I returned to the office and was immediately called by a number of newspaper men who were checking on a story by John S. Knight, publisher of the Knight Newspapers, which purported that Johnson had forced Kennedy to select him as the vice-presidential candidate.

Earlier that day I had gone to Bob Kennedy's room which was across from mine in the Biltmore Hotel. Ken O'Donnell was there and after I came in they were discussing the possibilities for Vice President. Bob Kennedy asked me to compute the number of electoral votes in New England and in the "solid South." I asked him if he was seriously thinking of Johnson and he said he was. He said Senator Kennedy was going over to see Johnson at 10 a.m. Ken O'Donnell violently protested about Johnson's being on the ticket and I joined Ken in this argument. Both of us felt that Senator Stuart Symington would make a better candidate but Senator Johnson seemed to be on Bob's mind. I remembered all of this later that night when I saw the news report about Johnson forcing himself on the ticket.

I called Bob Kennedy that night to check the Knight story. Bob said it was absolutely untrue. From my conversation with him, however, I gathered that the selection of Johnson had not been accomplished in the manner that the papers had reported it had. I got the distinct feeling that, at best, Senator Kennedy had been surprised when he asked Senator Johnson to run for Vice-President and Johnson accepted...

A day or two after the convention, I asked JFK for the answer to that question. He gave me many of the facts of the foregoing memo, then suddenly stopped and said: "The whole story will never be known. And it's just as well that it won't be."

UNQUOTE

[Pierre Salinger, With Kennedy, p. ]

Edited April 19 by Robert Morrow

Robert Morrow · April 19

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I know it started before the JFK administration so it's relevant to the JFKA in that respect. RFK went ballistic, tried to subvert LBJ as VP at the LA DNC convention in 1960. And that it went on from there.

I was surprised to see this featured at the top of the page on MSN yesterday. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen or Heard it. Because, I can't hear it, the volume is so low. The volume on my pc is turned up full blast. Other things with audio I view are fine. With one exception. A video I watched earlier about Jimi Hendrix opening for the Monkey's. For it I scrunched down with my ear near the lap top speaker and watched out of the corner of my eye. A really interesting video, 12 minutes long. This one is closer to an hour. Anyone else have a similar problem with this?

The Intense Feud Between Lyndon B. Johnson & Robert F. Kennedy | White House Tapes | Timeline | Watch (msn.com)

This may be the same video but I am going to post it anyhow:

History Channel 2003 -- LBJ vs. The Kennedys--Chasing Demons – originally aired on June 1, 2003. Soon it was banned from the History Channel

This is a very good documentary that details the absolute war that was going on between Lyndon Johnson and Robert Kennedy in the aftermath of the JFK assassination.

The reason for this is that Lyndon Johnson had just orchestrated the murder of JFK in response to the Kennedys trying to utterly destroy him with massive coordinated media exposes of his corruption as well as a Senate Rules Committee investigation into LBJ’s corrupt that was also being instigated by Robert Kennedy in early November of 1963. The Kennedys were not merely going to drop Lyndon Johnson from the 1964 Democratic ticket; they were going to napalm LBJ into roasted ruins.

Web link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seoy3TUwnRw

“LBJ RFK WHAT REALLY HAPPENED”

"With the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, Lyndon Johnson was thrust into the nation's highest office, starting a new chapter in his increasingly bitter feud with the dead president's brother, Robert Kennedy. These two men, who openly despised one another, were now expected to work together to guide the nation through a turbulent time. This episode goes inside the oval office to tell the complete story of this strained relationship, using never-before-heard oral histories and LBJ's White House telephone recordings. See how the Kennedys saw Johnson as a threat to the New Frontier, while Johnson maintained a deep-seated fear of being overshadowed by the Kennedys and their quest to preserve the increasingly mythologized legacy of JFK. Johnson's fear was made worse by J. Edgar Hoover, whose secret files, break-ins, and phone taps served to fuel LBJ's paranoia."

QUOTE

The death of President Kennedy thrust Lyndon Johnson into the nation's highest office--and a new chapter in a bitter feud with Robert Kennedy. One of the greatest rivalries in U.S. history, this feature-length look at their tumultuous relationship features never-before-heard oral histories and LBJ's White House telephone recordings. We reveal how the Kennedys saw Johnson as a threat to the New Frontier, while LBJ nursed a deep-seated fear of being overshadowed by an increasingly mythologized JFK legacy.

UNQUOTE

QUOTE

The strained relationship between former president Lyndon Johnson and Bobby Kennedy is chronicled through Dictaphone recordings; dramatic reenactments; and commentary from many who knew both men. Among those commenting: former Johnson secretary Marie Fehmer; former press secretary George Reedy; and Nicholas Katzenbach, former assistant attorney general.

UNQUOTE

Denny Zartman · April 19

Good work, @Robert Morrow , thanks for all that information. Very enlightening.

Robert Morrow · April 19

21 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

Good work, @Robert Morrow , thanks for all that information. Very enlightening.

Denny, you are very welcome. I have an endless amount of ammo aimed at Lyndon Johnson. Here is NBC reporter Nancy Dickerson who used to make Lady Bird jealous by dancing so much with LBJ in the White House:

CBS Reporter Nancy Dickerson's Account of how Lyndon Johnson got selected at the 1960 Democratic convention: the Kennedys greatly wanted Stuart Symington for VP and repeatedly had made that known.

QUOTE

As the convention drew nearer, JFK had three secret meetings with Clark Clifford, who was handling the campaign of Senator Stuart Symington. The first was a luncheon at Kennedy's Washington house, where, through Clifford, he offered the Vice Presidency to Symington, provided Symington's Missouri delegation votes went to Kennedy. Symington turned down the deal. The second conversation, which took place in Los Angeles, was a repeat of the first, and again it was refused. The third conversation was in Kennedy's hideaway in Los Angeles, during which he told Clifford that he was fairly certain of a first-ballot victory and asked if Symington would be his running mate. As Clifford later told me, "There were no strings attached. It was a straight offer." The Symington and Clifford families conferred, Symington agreed to run, and Clifford relayed the news to Kennedy.

Clifford was playing a unique role: he was not only Symington's campaign advisor but JFK's personal lawyer as well. He is one of the world's most sophisticated men, and he does not make mistakes about matters like this. As he told me, "We had a deal signed, sealed and delivered."

[...]

Early the next morning, Thursday, July 14, John Kennedy walked down the flight of stairs from his suite to call on Senator and Mrs. Johnson. There was a new sense of seriousness about him, a reserved inner calm that was perceptible not only in the way he walked, but in the way reporters and onlookers gave him a new deference, standing aside to let him through. I never dreamed that he was there to offer the Vice Presidency to LBJ- and if any of those among the more than fifty other reporters outside the door were thinking about it, they didn't say so. It never crossed my mind because Johnson had sworn to me a dozen times, both on the air and off, that he would never take the Vice Presidency.

For his part, Johnson had been expecting the offer; he took it at face value and said he'd think it over. A politician to his bones, he could see the merits of a Kennedy-Johnson combination. All the Johnson aides believed it was a serious offer, and LBJ went to his grave saying he thought so, but there were many in the Kennedy camp who believed that it was only a courtesy.

UNQUOTE

[Nancy Dickerson, "Among Those Present: A Reporter's View of 25 Years in Washington," pp. 43-44]

Robert Kennedy stormed into LBJ’s hotel room in Los Angeles and told him if he (LBJ) knew what was good for him, he would get off the 1960 Democratic ticket!

LBJ and Unity: Kennedy vs. Johnson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzJn7vaA3ZQ

John Connally, Bobby Baker and a third man are in this video

01:29

Finally, the candidate's brother, Robert Kennedy, paid Johnson a visit.

01:35

I was in the room, in Johnson's bedroom with Johnson and John Connally, the three of us

01:40

alone on the morning of the nomination for the vice presidency at about 10:30, when Bobby

01:49

Kennedy stormed in and started screaming at Johnson that if he knew what was good for

01:55

him, he'd get off that ticket.