Under Cover of Night

[Robert Morrow]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

Thanks Ron. 

Also thanks for not quoting Ruby under the control of Jolly West.

Roger, I never said that the results would have been different if LBJ had not given in. Because he still wanted the Texas Court of Inquiry to be supplied by Hoover. But what I am saying is that he and the White House were worked on over this issue.  

So for Fetter to call it the Johnson Commission is misguided. It was not his idea and once it was up and running, we know who controlled it. 

So was Jollyon West inducing Jack Ruby to indict Lyndon Johnson in the JFK assassination? There sure were a lot of other people who did that as well in real time, indict LBJ.

And btw, LBJ did control his own commission because he picked the members. And his first 3 picks were 1) Allen Dulles 2) John McCloy and 3) Gen. Lauris Narstad (who was ultimately not picked, but it is important to know LBJ wanted a right wing Air Force general who had fought with JFK over the control of nuclear weapons). Lauris Norstad: Lauris Norstad - Wikipedia

Sean Fetter is right about one thing: one needs to look more towards the role of the AIR FORCE in the JFK assassination than merely the CIA. With LBJ at the peak of the pyramid.

[Roger Odisio]

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

Thanks Ron. 

Also thanks for not quoting Ruby under the control of Jolly West.

Roger, I never said that the results would have been different if LBJ had not given in. Because he still wanted the Texas Court of Inquiry to be supplied by Hoover. But what I am saying is that he and the White House were worked on over this issue.  

So for Fetter to call it the Johnson Commission is misguided. It was not his idea and once it was up and running, we know who controlled it. 

JD: Roger, I never said that the results would have been different if LBJ had not given in.

 

RO:  What a strange comment to direct at me, since I've made it clear I don't believe Johnson changed his mind in the 5 days between Oswald's death and his announcement of the WC with Allen Dulles as one of the commissioners. What did you mean?

 

JD:  Because he still wanted the Texas Court of Inquiry to be supplied by Hoover. But what I am saying is that he and the White House were worked on over this issue.  

 

RO:  I know what you're saying, Jim.  You have done nothing but repeat the same assertions as if they were established facts again and again, while ignoring every counter point I made.

 

Johnson was *not* "convinced" or "bamboozled" by the suggestions made by the likes of Alsop and Rostow to create what became the WC. This was confirmed by Alsop himself when the told Johnsons he was *not* suggesting a new investigative body. Instead, he was offering PR, not legal, advice as to how to best take what the FBI had so far done and sell it to the public.  

 

It is further confirmed by the fact that the WC Johnson created bore *no* resemblance to the suggestions made by those two guys.

 

But the WC, as it was constituted and operated, *was* in fact precisely what the planners of the murder wanted as one key to them getting away with it. The WC ignored, altered, destroyed, and lied about key evidence in order to frame Oswald.  If that idea for a bogus investigation did not come from Alsop and Rostow, then who or where did it come from?

 

Likewise it's pretty clear that Johnson never preferred a Texas investigation to the WC in Washington he could control by, for example, naming Dulles to ride herd over what the commission did and didn't do.

 

Johnson was nothing if not a practiced manipulator. He had spent his 25 year career in DC up to the that point perfected the skill.

 

When as VP he succeeded Kennedy and people knew some of the things he had done, (including the fact that the very day of the murder there was to be a Congressional hearing into some of his corruption) he knew he would initially be under suspicion of being involved with the murder.

 

He could not afford to be seen as the guy who formed the WC, particularly when it became clear that the commission's task was to not learn the truth, but to conceal it. So he claimed, and made sure his claim was recorded, that he opposed an official investigation in Washington.  It was somebody else's idea. Some other important people in Washington.

 

When he claimed to Alsop that he favored a Texas investigation, the reasons he gave were laughably transparent, as I have already explained.  Like the killing was a "local murder" jurisdictional to the state. Technically true, but no less disingenuous.

 

This from the guy who ordered JFK's body to be snatched from Dr. Rose, who had jurisdiction over the autopsy, so the autopsy could be controlled in Washington, concealing or distorting evidence that contradicted the killers' Oswald story. Even Alsop had to interject that the victim was the POTUS, sir.  Alsop slapped down the Texas idea by explaining to Johnson, as if Johnson was in the 4th grade, that the national implications of the murder were enormous, and he needed to deal with them as the new president. As if Johnson hadn't realized that.

 

I await your considered and thorough response to these points.

[Joe Bauer]

5 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

Sean Fetter is right about one thing: one needs to look more towards the role of the AIR FORCE in the JFK assassination than merely the CIA.

Agree.

[James DiEugenio]

RI: Alsop himself when the told Johnsons he was *not* suggesting a new investigative body.

This is just silly. And it can only stand if you do not read the dialogue. Alsop knew what he wanted from LBJ from the start.  He said what Roger hangs onto like a life raft only to detract from that agenda, to make it seem he was not manipulating him. Anyone can figure that out by just reading the whole thing.

In other words, Alsop was giving LBJ the Johnson treatment. And it worked.  Just read the thing.  At the beginning LBJ insists on a Texas Board of Inquiry.  At the end he is going to call Acheson who is clearly part of this loose confederation that is trying to get the inquiry out of Texas.

I cannot believe what else you are trying to convey here.  But I think you imply that somehow Johnson let himself be rolled because the WC is what he wanted all along?  Is that what you are trying to say? I mean that is really wild. So the Rostow and Alsop calls, the Washington Post threat was all smoke and mirrors in order to disguise what he really wanted?  And he only put up a fight with Alsop because he wanted that to exist in the record?

I mean that is really bizarre.  I really don't know what to make of that one.

Finally, Dulles lobbied to be on the Commission. The only one who did so. Johnson picked a Commission because that is what they were suggesting to him to do. Rostow wanted 7-9, Alsop wanted three.  But my point is that whether it was a presidential commission or a Texas Board of Inquiry, either one was going to be supplied by Hoover. So ultimately it would have made little or no difference.

Unless there was some guy down in Texas who wanted to play hero and get himself killed.

[Roger Odisio]

8 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

RI: Alsop himself when the told Johnsons he was *not* suggesting a new investigative body.

This is just silly. And it can only stand if you do not read the dialogue. Alsop knew what he wanted from LBJ from the start.  He said what Roger hangs onto like a life raft only to detract from that agenda, to make it seem he was not manipulating him. Anyone can figure that out by just reading the whole thing.

In other words, Alsop was giving LBJ the Johnson treatment. And it worked.  Just read the thing.  At the beginning LBJ insists on a Texas Board of Inquiry.  At the end he is going to call Acheson who is clearly part of this loose confederation that is trying to get the inquiry out of Texas.

I cannot believe what else you are trying to convey here.  But I think you imply that somehow Johnson let himself be rolled because the WC is what he wanted all along?  Is that what you are trying to say? I mean that is really wild. So the Rostow and Alsop calls, the Washington Post threat was all smoke and mirrors in order to disguise what he really wanted?  And he only put up a fight with Alsop because he wanted that to exist in the record?

I mean that is really bizarre.  I really don't know what to make of that one.

Finally, Dulles lobbied to be on the Commission. The only one who did so. Johnson picked a Commission because that is what they were suggesting to him to do. Rostow wanted 7-9, Alsop wanted three.  But my point is that whether it was a presidential commission or a Texas Board of Inquiry, either one was going to be supplied by Hoover. So ultimately it would have made little or no difference.

Unless there was some guy down in Texas who wanted to play hero and get himself killed.

First a suggestion. Stop categorizing my arguments--"silly" and "bizarre" this time--and just try to rebut them. Your rebuttal needs a lot of work.

You say Alsop told Johnson he was not suggesting a new investigative body because he (Alsop) was playing him.  Alsop knew what he wanted from Johnson. He said that to him only to make it seem like he was *not* manipulating him.  He said that only to "detract" from his actual agenda.

Did you mean "distract"?  How would that actually work?

In any case, what's missing from your formulation to make sense of your assertion is what Alsop *did* want Johnson to do. Why was he talking to Johnson?

Fortunately Alsop explains that in the dialogue you say you read but somehow failed to mention.  Here is what he said.  I'm not suggesting you establish a new investigative body.  I'm giving you PR, not political, advice about how to take the work the FBI has already done and better present it to the public to assuage their current misgivings. You need to appoint some prominent people with credibility to do that.

It's not like you could have missed that passage where Alsop explains his suggestion; I've mentioned it several times. 

Does that sound like the idea that led to the WC and how it worked? 

Today I went on the say that means "Johnson was *not* "convinced" or "bamboozled" by the suggestions made by the likes of Alsop and Rostow to create what became the WC as you have repeatedly asserted without obviously giving the slightest thought to what that means. The WC Johnson created and implemented bore *no* resemblance to the suggestions made by either Alsop or Rostow. Those suggestions did not lead to Johnson's creation of the WC.

I have several times asked you to explain where the idea for the actual WC and how it worked to frame Oswald, came from if not from Johnson.  Once again you've not answered.  Instead you have repeatedly tried to confuse things by suggesting that what Alsop and Rostow suggested convinced Johnson to create what became the WC. That's obviously false.

What else did I convey? it wasn't what you suggest--that Johnson let himself be rolled because he wanted the WC all along.  I hope I've just explained why that makes no sense.  Besides which, I have repeatedly told you that Johnson did not get rolled as you describe.  It boggles the mind that you have failed to grasp that and are still making that claim as if its what I think.

Here's a "what else" that you missed or at least made no comment about. While the WC had nothing to do with the suggestions of Alsop and Rostow, it did precisely fit the kind of investigation the killers wanted in order to get away with the murder and blame someone else.  Did you notice that? Hmm. Maybe if you gave some thought as to who so organized the WC, where its ideas came from, it would give you a clue to start figuring out how the planning of the murder worked and who was involved.  

[James DiEugenio]

Roger, I am very clear about where the idea of a blue ribbon commission started.

And so is Gibson.

The first guy to bring it up was Rostow.  And its right in Gibson's article.  (See The Assassinations, p. 7.)

So can we stop that one.

And I cannot believe you are now saying that somehow I do not know that the WC was a joke?  I have written, contributed to or edited,  five books on this subject Destiny Betrayed, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, JFK Revisited, The Assassinations, and The JFK Assassination  Chokeholds.

So I think I know something about the WC.  But that is not the point. Which you keep on avoiding.  Namely that whatever would have occurred, with Hoover as the investigator the verdict would have been the same.

Edited May 2 by James DiEugenio

[Roger Odisio]

16 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Roger, I am very clear about where the idea of a blue ribbon commission started.

And so is Gibson.

The first guy to bring it up was Rostow.  And its right in Gibson's article.  (See The Assassinations, p. 7.)

So can we stop that one.

And I cannot believe you are now saying that somehow I do not know that the WC was a joke?  I have written, contributed to or edited,  five books on this subject Destiny Betrayed, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, JFK Revisited, The Assassinations, and The JFK Assassination  Chokeholds.

So I think I know something about the WC.  But that is not the point. Which you keep on avoiding.  Namely that whatever would have occurred, with Hoover as the investigator the verdict would have been the same.

Yes, I get that you are very clear in *your mind* when you repeatedly assert *as fact* the idea of the WC did not come from Johnson, but he was convinced or bamboozled into it by others. You know something about the WC and have written five books about it.  Does that crude appeal to authority mean you won't be questioned about your assertions?

It's clear that has been your posture in this thread.

When I present you with countervailing evidence, even simple stuff like the Alsop suggestion had nothing to do with, was entirely different from, what became the WC, (as shown by the Alsop quotes in the Gibson article you keep asking me to read!) and therefore could not have been the source of the idea *as it played out*, you ignore that and simply repeat your assertion as fact. 

That's just the tip of the iceberg of reasons why Johnson wanted the WC he created, all of which you have ignored.

So it's not "we" who can or should stop this discussion. This is the second time you've wanted to skip away without addressing any alternative points.  I'm coming to believe there is nothing I could say that would cause you to reexamine your assertion.

For the record, I didn't say you didn't know the WC was a joke.  My point was the fact that the WC was a fraud intended to frame Oswald  rather than discover what happened, coincides precisely with the needs of the killers.  Whoever designed and implemented it that way could not have been Alsop or Rostow, unless you think they were in bed with the killers. Again, no response from you. Here I go, giving you more things to ignore.

You say I'm avoiding your point that "with Hoover as the investigator the verdict [of the WC]would have been the same.  It's true I forgot to mention this in my last post'

The WC was created in part because those who created it did not want to rely solely the FBI report. They didn't think it was good enough, but mostly because they (rightly)  thought there would be (large)segments of the population who woudn't believe the nothing-to-see here message coming statement from the FBI.

 Hoover was not "the investigator "of the WC. They hired a bunch of lawyers to create the record framing Oswald and 7 prominent Americans to front the pre-ordained conclusion. I'm sure you know this. I'm not sure why you made your claim.

 

[Tony Rose]

On 4/29/2024 at 7:56 PM, Roger Odisio said:

I think you've gone way overboard with the claim that Johnson was *the* mastermind of the JFKA.  Threshold questions: who wanted Kennedy out of the way more, Johnson or Dulles? Who was the more powerful figure in the relevant parts of the government in Washington?  Which one had access to a world wide roster of killers?

 

Johnson was AT MOST one connection away from killers he could direct.

[Tony Rose]

Ya'll are missing an element in your timelines. What Johnson finally went with was just what Alsop proposed: a group of heavyweights who were going to put a stamp of approval on the FBI's report. It was the staff attorneys who realized that they would have to do some investigating of their own to make up for inadequacies in the FBI verson. They also -- I'm theorizing -- thought it would be good for their burgeoning careers.

[Joe Bauer]

On 5/1/2024 at 4:26 AM, Robert Morrow said:

Sean Fetter is right about one thing: one needs to look more towards the role of the AIR FORCE in the JFK assassination than merely the CIA. With LBJ at the peak of the pyramid.

 

[James DiEugenio]

7 hours ago, Tony Rose said:

Ya'll are missing an element in your timelines. What Johnson finally went with was just what Alsop proposed: a group of heavyweights who were going to put a stamp of approval on the FBI's report. It was the staff attorneys who realized that they would have to do some investigating of their own to make up for inadequacies in the FBI verson. They also -- I'm theorizing -- thought it would be good for their burgeoning careers.

Thanks Tony.

And Joe, if you have not read Fetter's book, you really do not know how bad it is in every way. The stuff about Rayburn is just the beginning of a trail of folly.

[Roger Odisio]

15 hours ago, Tony Rose said:

Ya'll are missing an element in your timelines. What Johnson finally went with was just what Alsop proposed: a group of heavyweights who were going to put a stamp of approval on the FBI's report. It was the staff attorneys who realized that they would have to do some investigating of their own to make up for inadequacies in the FBI verson. They also -- I'm theorizing -- thought it would be good for their burgeoning careers.

It wasn't the staff attorneys who realized, on their own, that the FBI report was inadequate.  The inadequacy, and the fact that many wouldn't believe a report solely from the FBI,  was a major reason the WC was devised by Johnson.  It's true that Alsop made both of those points to Johnson. But Johnson already understood them.  He'd been in DC since the 40s.

No, Johnson did not go with "just what Alsop proposed".  Alsop specifically said he was *not* suggesting a new investigative body, like what became the WC, but merely prominent guys to rework the FBI report to better convince the public.

Johnson knew that wasn't enough.  There were major differences between what actually happened and the story the WC would go with. They couldn't be ignored.  The WC lawyers were hired to make up a plausible story to frame Oswald and paper over those differences. The way the WC functioned makes this obvious.

[Joe Bauer]

8 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Thanks Tony.

And Joe, if you have not read Fetter's book, you really do not know how bad it is in every way. The stuff about Rayburn is just the beginning of a trail of folly.

I purchased both volumes and am reading the first one. I am an extremely slow reader however. Hopefully I can eventually get through it. Also, I am going through some extremely debilitating medical issues the last few months which distract me from reading more than a few pages at a time.

Just from what I have read however I am intrigued about the Air Force command involvement which I had never come across before. Le May especially.

[James DiEugenio]

Joe:

Lemay was in JFK Revisited.  Doug Horne did a nice job on him.

Hope you get well.

Nice pivot by Roger to dodge Tony's point.  Which he leaves out, but then he says Alsop was not really trying to get LBJ to create a new body, which is what he was trying to do and what actually happened as a direct result of this conversation.  And all one has to do is read what LBJ said at at the beginning of the call, that the crime was under Texas law and he wanted a Texas board of inquiry and not a federal commission. (Gibson, in The Assassinations, p. 10)

Alsop reversed Johnson's thinking in a masterful display of persuasion in which he used every rhetorical device in the book, including denial of intent.

Edited May 6 by James DiEugenio

[Roger Odisio]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Joe:

Lemay was in JFK Revisited.  Doug Horne did a nice job on him.

Hope you get well.

Nice pivot by Roger to dodge Tony's point.  Which he leaves out, but then he says Alsop was not really trying to get LBJ to create a new body, which is what he was trying to do and what actually happened as a direct result of this conversation.  And all one has to do is read what LBJ said at at the beginning of the call, that the crime was under Texas law and he wanted a Texas board of inquiry and not a federal commission. (Gibson, in The Assassinations, p. 10)

Alsop reversed Johnson's thinking in a masterful display of persuasion in which he used every rhetorical device in the book, including denial of intent.

I didn't dodge Tony's point, Jim, I responded to it, as anyone can see.

You didn't stop claiming that snatching the body wasn't Johnson's idea and Valenti never said it was until I copied Pat Speers' research showing that Valenti, who was sitting next to Johnson at the time had repeated the same story about 10 other times.  You haven't acknowledged you were mistaken, but I'm assuming you have stopped making that claim.

Here once again you assert that Alsop was suggesting to Johnson the very investigative body that Johnson created, the WC. Johnson didn't want that but was bamboozled into it by Alsop.  This is equally false.

 To show that, I'm going to quote from Gibson's article.  The very article you cite for your claim and which you repeatedly asked me to read as if I hadn't.  This time I could not cut and paste the quotes.  I had to copy them by hand.  Alsop speaking to Johnson:

"I'm not suggesting that you appoint an additional investigative commission. I'm just suggesting that if you want to carry convictions this very small addition to the admirable machinery you already have will help you."

"What I am suggesting is a simple device for summing up the result of the FBI inquiry in a way that will be completely coherent, detailed, and will carry unchallengeable convictions."

"That is a way to transmit to the public without breach of confidence and in a way that will carry absolute conviction of what the FBI has turned up."

"I'm really honestly giving you public relations advice and not legal advice."   

In short, Jim, you have misrepresented Alsop's suggestion in order to make the obviously false claim  the WC was Alsop's idea and not Johnson's.

As I said, Johnson knew that punching up the FBI report as Alsop suggested would not be enough. The discrepancy between what happened and their Oswald story was too great. The WC hired a bunch of lawyers to concoct the WR framing of Oswald and papering over those discrepancies. Obviously none of what the WC did had the least bit to do with Alsop's suggestion to punch up the FBI report.