Under Cover of Night

[Roger Odisio]

13 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

You mean the DPD was told that Oswald was the designated patsy, and that was the reason DPD directed their police officers to go to the Texas Theater and arrest Oswald?

If so, that would mean that the head of the DPD was in the the conspiracy.

I think it's much more likely that the conspirators somehow brought to the DPD's attention evidence of some kind indicating Oswald should be a suspect. Faked evidence.

 

No. the police were simply told to arrest Oswald. They had the Tippit murder as a proximate reason but that's not the point.  The police are like the military, they follow orders; they don't question them.  

At the time of the arrest, they had no real evidence tying Oswald to the JFKA unless you want to count that Oswald had left the TCBD, as others did, and vaguely matched the description given by a witness. Too flimsy for words.

They arrested Oswald without evidence because he was the designated patsy. Before the murder, they had prepared to arrest him because they needed to kill him before he could talk to a lawyer. They could have killed him, then framed him, without arresting him at the theatre, and some believe that may have been the original plan.  But it didn't work out that way if it was the plan.

[Robert Morrow]

13 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

Why wouldn’t LBJ be even better able to control a Texas investigation?

Perhaps Eugene Rostow became alarmed at the possibility of an antisemitic backlash after Jesse Curry announced the death of Oswald and emphasized that Jack Ruby’s last name was Rubenstein. It would fit in with the timing of Rostow’s call to Moyers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Ds5dNzWRw

 

Because Lyndon Johnson had decades' long friendship with the super rich businessman, politicians, lawyers, media executives who controlled Texas. Just in Dallas alone LBJ had working relationships with H.L. Hunt, Clint Murchison, Sr. (who ran Dallas), D.H. Byrd. Over in Fort Worth LBJ was friends with Aman Carter who owned the newspaper there.

The Dallas DA Henry Wade was a WWII roommate with John Connally, longtime LBJ aide. Every politician in Dallas was heavily influenced by all the rich oil men and military and governmental contractors who were close personal friends of Lyndon Johnson.

In statewide government, Attorney General Waggoner Carr was influenced/controlled by these same people.

Lyndon Johnson's power broker pal Edward Clark admitted privately to involvement in the JFK assassination. Reader's Digest in the 1950s called Ed Clark "the secret political boss of Texas" and Leon Jaworski told his grandson journalist Robert Draper that Ed Clark was a "very, very powerful man."

Ed Clark was a big source Robert Caro for his books on LBJ.

Between the two "kill JFK perps," LBJ and Ed Clark, they had vast amounts of influence in Texas.

Edited April 29 by Robert Morrow

[Kevin Balch]

6 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

No. the police were simply told to arrest Oswald. They had the Tippit murder as a proximate reason but that's not the point.  The police are like the military, they follow orders; they don't question them.  

At the time of the arrest, they had no real evidence tying Oswald to the JFKA unless you want to count that Oswald had left the TCBD, as others did, and vaguely matched the description given by a witness. Too flimsy for words.

They arrested Oswald without evidence because he was the designated patsy. Before the murder, they had prepared to arrest him because they needed to kill him before he could talk to a lawyer. They could have killed him, then framed him, without arresting him at the theatre, and some believe that may have been the original plan.  But it didn't work out that way if it was the plan.

Why didn’t the Dallas Police announce Oswald’s name over the police radio when they announced Charles Givens was missing from the book depository?

[Roger Odisio]

13 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

Why wouldn’t LBJ be even better able to control a Texas investigation?

Perhaps Eugene Rostow became alarmed at the possibility of an antisemitic backlash after Jesse Curry announced the death of Oswald and emphasized that Jack Ruby’s last name was Rubenstein. It would fit in with the timing of Rostow’s call to Moyers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Ds5dNzWRw

 

Because with the WC Johnson could pick the commissioners.  And, as others have said, the public would not have accepted a Texas verdict like they did from a body headed by the ChiefJustice of the Supreme Court.  How best to sell the Oswald story was the point.

It's true Johnson ran Texas, but how well did he knew Waggoner Carr?  How much did he trust him to run a fake commission like Warren and Dulles did. Dulles was a critical piece in the whole affair by keeping scrutiny of the CIA out of the WC investigation.

[Roger Odisio]

2 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

Lyndon Johnson was the planner of the JFK assassination. LBJ was the Mastermind of the JFK assassination. LBJ was the micro-manger of the JFK assassination. He was not checking in with any "planners" of the JFK assassination to get their permission on what to do or not to after a bullet goes into JFK's head.

Lyndon Johnson, who initially opposed a national commission, succumbed to political pressure to create one: HIS commission and he rigged it just like LBJ would have rigged a Texas Court of Inquiry. 

After Oswald was murdered in Dallas police custody, the national mood was we are not going to trust the results of any investigation based in Texas. But the problem was the leading murderer of JFK was the new president from Texas and he rigged the results anyhow mainly with the help of FBI Hoover, then CIA Allen Dulles and then CIA/FBI friendly Gerald Ford and LBJ/CIA friendly John McCloy.

I think you've gone way overboard with the claim that Johnson was *the* mastermind of the JFKA.  Threshold questions: who wanted Kennedy out of the way more, Johnson or Dulles? Who was the more powerful figure in the relevant parts of the government in Washington?  Which one had access to a world wide roster of killers?

I've said only that both participated in planning the murder.  It was a small group of planners that worked together, compartmentalized wherever possible.  61 years later I'm not sure sure it's important to go beyond that until more people become interested and buy into the basics.

I for one never said that Johnson asked permission from anyone for what to do after the murder.  For one thing, it's axiomatic that a coverup plan was in place before the murder.  Not that everything went according to that plan.

[Robert Morrow]

12 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

I think you've gone way overboard with the claim that Johnson was *the* mastermind of the JFKA.  Threshold questions: who wanted Kennedy out of the way more, Johnson or Dulles? Who was the more powerful figure in the relevant parts of the government in Washington?  Which one had access to a world wide roster of killers?

I've said only that both participated in planning the murder.  It was a small group of planners that worked together, compartmentalized wherever possible.  61 years later I'm not sure sure it's important to go beyond that until more people become interested and buy into the basics.

I for one never said that Johnson asked permission from anyone for what to do after the murder.  For one thing, it's axiomatic that a coverup plan was in place before the murder.  Not that everything went according to that plan.

The issue is: what does the evidence say about who murdered JFK: LBJ or Allen Dulles?

It is not even close. Jackie, RFK, Ethel, Madeleine Brown, Ed Clark, KGB, Barry Goldwater, Richard Nixon, Evelyn Lincoln, the Mexican CIA, the Fort Worth Police, civil rights activists, liberal activists in Texas - all of those people and groups said Lyndon Johnson killed JFK. And Jack Ruby too!

Who was in mortal danger in November, 1963 from the Kennedys: LBJ or Dulles? It was Lyndon Johnson.

Who immediately blamed the JFK assassination on a communist? Again, it was LBJ.

And then who blamed it on Fidel Castro for the rest of his life? LBJ

Who told Will Fritz to quit interviewing Oswald? LBJ.

Who called Dr. Crenshaw on 11/24/63 and wanted only a confession out of Oswald, not any questions about who might be his confederates? LBJ

Who appointed the Warren Commission with his best friends and CIA people? LBJ

Who murdered Henry Marshall in 1961? LBJ

Who murdered Sam Smithwick in 1952? LBJ

Who got Mac Wallace off of a first degree murder conviction in 1952? LBJ

Who tried to sink the USS Liberty in 1967 with Israel and blame it on Egypt? LBJ - that would be murdering U.S. sailors at least 34 and wounding 174 others.

Who stole billions in gold from White Sands? LBJ

Who was a malignantly narcissistic criminal psychopath that was in a continuous behind the scenes battle with the Kennedys from 1960 to 1963? LBJ 

It is the criminality of LBJ before and after the JFK assassination and the total hatred between the Kennedys and LBJ both before and after the JFK assassination that tells you who was the most important figure in murdering JFK.

Who was often called an "animal" (both Nixon and RFK) or a "monster" (top British politico) by high level political figures who knew him well? LBJ

Lyndon Johnson.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30 by Robert Morrow

[James DiEugenio]

Johnson, as advised by his lawyers, was legally correct.

But as Rostow, whoever his friend was--probably Acheson--and Alsop decided, the utterly shocking death of Oswald on TV was just too much.  Dallas was looking like Tombstone.  So they had all decided that you had to have a commission with a lot of luminaries on it to restore stability and equilibrium.  

This idea was good at the time because it was something that the media embraced without question. At least I have never found any real objection to the idea  at the time.    And once that was done, it meant they would go ahead and accept its verdict.  Which they did.  In fact CBS was leaked  the results and given permission to film witnesses as long as they supported the verdict, which--to their everlasting shame-- they did. 

Again, as with many things these CFR types come up with, I admire their brains as much as I don't the uses to which they put them.  Because in the long run, by letting Hoover be the main gatekeeper, it undermined belief in the system. And led to a steady erosion in democracy.

And that is something that somehow, some way, Sean Fetter missed.

 

Edited April 30 by James DiEugenio

[Ron Bulman]

27 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

the utterly shocking death of Oswald on TV was just too much.  Dallas was looking like Tombstone.  So they had all decided that you had to have a commission with a lot of luminaries on it to restore stability and equilibrium.  

I've never heard it put quite that way before, excellent Jim, imho.  

After Oswald's capture, interment, the news, questioning, his assassination by Ruby on National TV was too much for the plotters.  They had to do something to control the unplanned for circumstances

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Ron. 

The shock of Ruby doing what he did on national TV just kind of gave the image of a world gone mad, as Hosty said in his book.  What was next?

So Rostow and Alsop and the CFR crowd decided a blue ribbon Commission was the way out. And they bamboozled Johnson into creating one.

[Robert Morrow]

5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Thanks Ron. 

The shock of Ruby doing what he did on national TV just kind of gave the image of a world gone mad, as Hosty said in his book.  What was next?

So Rostow and Alsop and the CFR crowd decided a blue ribbon Commission was the way out. And they bamboozled Johnson into creating one.

Interesting guy Jack Ruby.

HE BLAMED LYNDON JOHNSON FOR THE JFK ASSASSINATION - calling LBJ a "Nazi of the worst order" and said if JFK had picked Adlai Stevenson for President he never would have been assassinated.

Jack Ruby:

"First, you must realize that the people here want everyone to think I'm crazy...isn't it strange that Oswald...should be fortunate enough to get a job at the Texas Schoolbook Depository Building two weeks before...Only one person could have had that information, and that man was Johnson...because he was the one who was going to arrange the trip...The only one who gained by the shooting...They alone planned the killing, by they I mean Johnson and others...you may learn quite a bit about Johnson and how he has fooled everyone..." 1

QUOTE

"The world has the right to hear the truth."

 He said newsman should search "in the high sources of our political

government" to find out how Oswald got a job at the Depository on the

motorcade route; said that the full story of the assassination would

not come out because "unfortunately some people in high places had so

much to gain by putting me in this position", and when asked to

elaborate on this, said that the results of the lie detector test had

not been divulged, and said that there was a "terrible conspiracy"

behind Kennedy's death and he, Ruby, "happened to be a scapegoat to

walk into a trap and make that possible."

 "...if Adlai Stevenson had been Vice President, Kennedy would still be

alive today."

 Ruby wrote that Johnson "found me as the perfect setup for a frame.

Remember they had the President killed, and now with me in the

picture, they'll make it look as though Castro or the Russians had it

done. Remember the only one who had all to gain was Johnson himself.

Figure that out. "

 Jack Ruby in a jailhouse letter called Lyndon Johnson a “Nazi of the Worst Order” and implicated him in the JFK assassination

UNQUOTE

 

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

"...if Adlai Stevenson had been Vice President, Kennedy would still be

alive today."

That is a remarkable and potentially bombshell quote by Ruby.

Of all the statements Ruby made after his conviction, this one really stops you as it is a direct indictment of LBJ in the JFKA.

There is no debate about it's message.

It begs you to ponder the motivational genesis of it. 

In what possible way could Ruby think making a public statement like this would benefit him? There is no logic in that mindset.

Was this proclamation of LBJ direct guilt in the JFKA just the ramblings of an extremely mentally deranged Jack Ruby?

Ruby did say this to the world. It's part of the Jack Ruby truth. One has to at least consider it's possible ramifications.

E. Howard Hunt also placed LBJ ( and Cord Meyer) in the initial decision making process. Was Hunt nuts too like Jack Ruby?

In Hunt's case it's easier to consider a motive of financial gain after his death. Hunt was broke. He had nothing to leave his family. Perhaps he thought that a book deal or even movie deal might be presented to his children ( especially his wayward son Saint John ) inspired by his earth shaking claim that LBJ had something to do with the JFKA?

 

 

 

 

[Robert Morrow]

52 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

That is a remarkable and potentially bombshell quote by Ruby.

Of all the statements Ruby made after his conviction, this one really stops you as it is a direct indictment of LBJ in the JFKA.

There is no debate about it's message.

It begs you to ponder the motivational genesis of it. 

In what possible way could Ruby think making a public statement like this would benefit him? There is no logic in that mindset.

Was this proclamation of LBJ direct guilt in the JFKA just the ramblings of an extremely mentally deranged Jack Ruby?

Ruby did say this to the world. It's part of the Jack Ruby truth. One has to at least consider it's possible ramifications.

E. Howard Hunt also placed LBJ ( and Cord Meyer) in the initial decision making process. Was Hunt nuts too like Jack Ruby?

In Hunt's case it's easier to consider a motive of financial gain after his death. Hunt was broke. He had nothing to leave his family. Perhaps he thought that a book deal or even movie deal might be presented to his children ( especially his wayward son Saint John ) inspired by his earth shaking claim that LBJ had something to do with the JFKA?

 

 

 

 

E. Howard Hunt was not nuts but he is not entirely reliable either.

Cord Meyer was someone who was extremely jealous of JFK being president and also JFK having sex with his former wife Mary Meyer. Read Barbara Leamer's book on Jackie Kennedy and you will see her write about how jealous Cord Meyer was of JFK. Cord Meyer thought HE should be president.

Jack Ruby also wrote a letter from prison indicting LBJ for the JFK assassination.

E. Howard Hunt indicted Lyndon Johnson in the JFK assassination. Saint John Hunt wanted to get the truth from E. Howard Hunt but Hunt's then current wife was extremely hostile to any type of JFK truth telling. Saint John Hunt had to videotape his father when his stepmother was not around.

I am not saying I believe everything Hunt said, but he was right about one thing: LBJ was involved up to his eyeballs in the JFK assassination.

[Roger Odisio]

13 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Johnson, as advised by his lawyers, was legally correct.

But as Rostow, whoever his friend was--probably Acheson--and Alsop decided, the utterly shocking death of Oswald on TV was just too much.  Dallas was looking like Tombstone.  So they had all decided that you had to have a commission with a lot of luminaries on it to restore stability and equilibrium.  

This idea was good at the time because it was something that the media embraced without question. At least I have never found any real objection to the idea  at the time.    And once that was done, it meant they would go ahead and accept its verdict.  Which they did.  In fact CBS was leaked  the results and given permission to film witnesses as long as they supported the verdict, which--to their everlasting shame-- they did. 

Again, as with many things these CFR types come up with, I admire their brains as much as I don't the uses to which they put them.  Because in the long run, by letting Hoover be the main gatekeeper, it undermined belief in the system. And led to a steady erosion in democracy.

And that is something that somehow, some way, Sean Fetter missed.

 

"Facts mean nothing unless they are rightly understood, rightly related and rightly interpreted." R.L.Long

That Alsop and Rostow both suggested to Johnson that he create some sort of body that would help ease the public's distress at what they had seen, are both facts nobody denies.

Although you never mention another fact: Alsop said to Johnson he was *not* suggesting the creation of a new Investigative body, but rather some elite individuals who would take what the FBI had already done and better sell it to the public.  He was offering PR, not legal, advice, he said.  You leave that out because it destroys your claim that Alsop played a major role in convincing Johnson to create *the kind of commission we know the WC was*.

The actual WC was exactly what the planners of the murder wanted:  an official body set up to find Oswald guilty as the lone assassin, through all kinds of lying about, distortion, destroying, etc. of facts. Where did the idea of the actual WC come from if not from the killers?  The WC certainly was not what Alsop, and Rostow was suggesting to Johnson.

Do you honestly think the killers would have gone ahead with the murder telling the Oswald story, without giving serious thought to how to control an investigation they knew would happen once they got rid of Oswald? Having the WC come out with the verdict it did was absolutely critical to their getting away with the murder.

I've gone on from that idea to say it seems obvious to me that Johnson's implementation of the WC  plan was critical to the killers' success and that is one reason the killers would need assurances from him about what he would do after the murder. Other assurances were needed.  E.,g., they needed to be sure Johnson would implement some of the major policies Kennedy had been blocking as well.

Disagree with that if you want.  But can we dispense with the ridiculous idea that the WC and all it did to cover up the murder, was the idea of Washington denizens like Alsop and Rostow?  That they poured the idea into that empty vessel, Lyndon Johnson, who had never contemplated it before Rostow talked to him on the Nov. 25? 

[Ron Bulman]

20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

And they bamboozled Johnson into creating one.

That's the key point here, he didn't want one.

[James DiEugenio]

 

Thanks Ron. 

Also thanks for not quoting Ruby under the control of Jolly West.

Roger, I never said that the results would have been different if LBJ had not given in. Because he still wanted the Texas Court of Inquiry to be supplied by Hoover. But what I am saying is that he and the White House were worked on over this issue.  

So for Fetter to call it the Johnson Commission is misguided. It was not his idea and once it was up and running, we know who controlled it. 

Edited May 1 by James DiEugenio