Hornberger Indicts LBJ

[Bill Fite]

6 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

How could the plotters be absolutely sure they could remove all or enough evidence of a shot from the front? What if one of the shots missed and only wounded one of the other occupants in the limo? Or embedded itself in the limo such that it unambiguously came from the front?

Always wondered about that too.

Or a shot that missed and imbedded itself in the grass across the street from the knoll.  

[Kevin Balch]

25 minutes ago, Bill Fite said:

Always wondered about that too.

Or a shot that missed and imbedded itself in the grass across the street from the knoll.  

How could a shooter miss the entire car from that distance? All that risk and trouble for nothing. Did he take another shot and was successful? Or was another shooter also present?

I don’t believe there was a knoll shooter. I’ve never heard an explanation how a shot from the right front hit JFK’s head which was turned to the left and facing slightly downward exited from the rear of his head.

Dr. Malcolm Perry stated at the Parkland press conference that afternoon that the head wound was a “tangential wound” and from the Z-film it looks like it traversed the right side of the skull.

The simpler explanation is that the head shot came from behind and above either from the TSBD or the DalTex Bldg.

[Roger Odisio]

1 hour ago, Kevin Balch said:

How could the plotters be absolutely sure they could remove all or enough evidence of a shot from the front? What if one of the shots missed and only wounded one of the other occupants in the limo? Or embedded itself in the limo such that it unambiguously came from the front?

They couldn't be sure, Kevin.  But the higher priority was to make sure they got Kennedy.  A multi-shooter crossfire offered the most certitude.

That left them with a bunch of elements to clean up after because they planned to go with the Oswald single shooter story.  Which they worked out plans for before setting the murder in motion.  Like the autopsy, the WC investigation, altering films like Zapruder, and controlling the flow of information to the public.

You'll notice that has worked so far.

[Bill Fite]

37 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

How could a shooter miss the entire car from that distance?

Pulled his shot not to hit Jackie?    or just missed?

Don't forget the shooter from the back missed JFK, everybody else in the car, the car, and even the road.

[Sandy Larsen]

22 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

On 5/2/2024 at 2:37 PM, James DiEugenio said:

I don't think it was Rybka.  I think it was Lawton.

You are correct. It was Lawton.

 

Well that's odd. I got the name Rybka from a paper written by none other than Vince Palamara. One would think he'd get it right, of all people.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

14 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Sandy:

I must say that John Newman also agrees with Scott on his Phase One and Phase two model.

I don't care to call it a theory, since I agree with you, that it is pretty close to what happened.  So I don't think it can be called something theoretical.

I think the ground level perps wanted an attack on Cuba, I mean look at the DRE for one.

14 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

But a friend of mine brought this up to me: Jim was there really a tandem plan or was it planned all along to revert to Phase two?

I have to say that is pretty insightful.

 

Yeah, I've read of that possibility more than once. I think one proponent of that theory referred to Phase 1 as a "poison pill"

I think that that is a possible explanation for what happened. But I'm skeptical because the Phase 1 plan continued on long past the need for it... if all it was was a poison pill to get LBJ to accept the lone gunman scenario.

I've wanted to debate whether or not the "poison pill" idea is the right one. But I haven't opened a thread for it because it appears not enough members even understand the Phase 1 / Phase 2 theory/fact.

 

[James DiEugenio]

If so, they are missing a very key paradigm in the case.

[Tony Rose]

8 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

 

 

Well, this is curious, and a bit suspicious to those inclined to suspicion. Why would Johnson refuse to leave Dallas without the President's body--to which he had no right? Valenti's explanation in the Times article that “LBJ foresaw that he would be maligned for being so eager to be President that he left behind his predecessor's body” makes little sense in that the alternative--that he would quite correctly be criticized for forcing Kennedy's widow to wait around on the tarmac in Dallas for an additional 30-40 minutes, and then stand by him in her blood-stained clothes during an unnecessary swearing-in ceremony--was something he should also have foreseen, and avoided.

 

It was Jackie who insisted on wearing the blooding clothes. "I want them to see what they've done."

And, LBJ was more than capable of lying by telling multiple stories about events, as it please him.

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

How could the plotters be absolutely sure they could remove all or enough evidence of a shot from the front?

 

I'm sure the plotters were concerned about that.

But if we were to deny that part of the plot was to control the autopsy for the sake of removing evidence of shots from the front, then we'd be forced to believe that the government came up with that decision extremely quickly after the assassination. Including surreptitiously removing the body from the brass casket and placing it in a shipping casket, flying it by helicopter to Bethesda, and performing pre-autopsy surgery on it. That just isn't possible. It had to have been planned prior to the assassination.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

One can be of above average intelligence and still have severe psychological issues.

LHO may have had "severe psychological issues," or he may have been a free spirit, sometimes a bit cynical. He received an honorable discharge from the Marines. 

He may have been sent to Russia (I suspect he was). And so the Russia trip was not the sojourn of a lost soul. 

LHO evidently had no drug or alcohol habits, which might have been an indicator of inner demons. 

I would say it is impossible to know the "real" LHO at this late date. 

Was he a sincere Marxist, or an intel plant? A 24-year-old with little formal education, fleetingly seduced by one idea or the next? 

 

 

[Kevin Balch]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

LHO may have had "severe psychological issues," or he may have been a free spirit, sometimes a bit cynical. He received an honorable discharge from the Marines. 

He may have been sent to Russia (I suspect he was). And so the Russia trip was not the sojourn of a lost soul. 

LHO evidently had no drug or alcohol habits, which might have been an indicator of inner demons. 

I would say it is impossible to know the "real" LHO at this late date. 

Was he a sincere Marxist, or an intel plant? A 24-year-old with little formal education, fleetingly seduced by one idea or the next? 

 

 

He seemed to be enchanted with Castro even before he came to power according to Nelson Delgado one of his Marine buddies. 

I remember a show of Hunley and Groubert’s Unsolved History where Groubert suggested drug use by Oswald. During the midnight press conference, Oswald at time appeared very chastised when addressing the general audience and then moments later was very emphatic when he told a reporter that a policeman hit him.

Edited May 4 by Kevin Balch

[Kevin Balch]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Well that's odd. I got the name Rybka from a paper written by none other than Vince Palamara. One would think he'd get it right, of all people.

 

Rybka was assigned to stay at Love Field.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/palamara/ssrosters.html

I wish I could find the source I used. I know it was NOT Vince.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Kevin Balch said:

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Well that's odd. I got the name Rybka from a paper written by none other than Vince Palamara. One would think he'd get it right, of all people.

1 hour ago, Kevin Balch said:

Rybka was assigned to stay at Love Field.

 

But so was the other candidate... Lawton.

 

[Gene Kelly]

21 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

If so, they are missing a very key paradigm in the case.

Jim

I find John Newman diffuclt to read and get through (but so is PD Scott).  Scott describes Phase 1 as the phantom of an international plot, linking Oswald to the USSR, to Cuba, or to both countries together. This phantom plot was used to invoke a possible nuclear confrontation, which induced Warren and others to accept Phase Two. Scott describes Phase 2 as an equally false (but less dangerous) hypothesis that Oswald killed the President all by himself.  In other words, it was planned/intended to revert to Phase 2, where Hoover and LBJ agree that the Mexico City "evidence" needed to be suppressed  as it raised the possibility of an international communist conspiracy. This serves to discredit/incrimnate the Soviets (and Castro), forces LBJ to avoid a nuclear confrontation and create a Warren Commission controlled by Dulles and other participants (Angleton, Rocca, et al), and limits any meaningful investigation. And all of this being (according to Scott) a "structural product of a deep political system assembled into a coalition of anti-Kennedy interests".

I personally see Phase 1 as blackmailing the FBI and Secret Service with damaging a-priori information in their files before  the assassination. This has the effect of forcing them to adopt the lone Oswald story (to protect Agency reputations) and shape their investigations accordingly.  I also think the CIA used the exiles and DRE groups, and never really seriously considered a Cuban attack. Some also add a  Phase 3, where - once the CIA and FBI realized the alleged assassin was known (and could be linked) to them - they did everything in their powers to suppress this information. An induced cover-up that was put into motion within hours of the shooting.

Gene

[James DiEugenio]

I think John subscribes to the last proposition about what he calls "the virus" inducing a massive cover up.

But I think the overall construct  is more than theoretical.

I think in large part it took place.