Hornberger Indicts LBJ

[Kirk Gallaway]

1 hour ago, Kevin Balch said:

Lisa Howard was one of the intermediaries used in the back channel discussions. Why did she turn so strongly anti-RFK and endorse Kenneth Keating (who initially made claims that the Soviets were placing missiles in Cuba) in the 1964 NY senate election?

That's interesting, Kevin. I know she was debriefed by Helms upon coming back from Cuba. So you think she got  wind of  RFK assassinations plots of Castro and turned against him?

Kevin: Keating (who initially made claims that the Soviets were placing missiles in Cuba) in the 1964 NY senate election?

By "initially"  you mean Keating made public statements as to the danger present prior to Oct. 1962?

[Sandy Larsen]

On 4/30/2024 at 10:32 PM, James DiEugenio said:

You know, I think Jacob posted this due to this debate going on when I posted my review of Under Cover of Night.

Let us take them one by one.  The idea that somehow LBJ forced the cadaver out of the hospital so there would not be an autopsy struck me as odd.  Since i had never seen that particular charge before.  So I went back to what should be the two best sources on this, namely Manchester and Bishop. Those two men wrote books based on many sources and interviews nearest to the time of the crime.  They were hour by hour, sometimes minute by minute chronicles.  

The man who wanted to get LBJ out of Dallas was Rufus Youngblood, and secondarily Roberts. (Manchester, pp 232-34; Bishop p. 245) Nobody knew at that time how extensive the plot was. Recall, the Lincoln assassination had at least three targets.  Youngblood also was the one who urged LBJ to get out of the hospital once Kennedy was dead. And, in fact, since JFK was dead, the Secret Service should have gone with Johnson. (ibid, p. 289) Because as Manchester notes, once JFK was dead, Jackie was not technically the First Lady and was not entitled to Secret Service, bodyguards or aides.

And actually, O'Donnell and Powers and O'Brien had no standing either.  

When Kilduff told LBJ that Kennedy was now dead, this is why Johnson told him that the Secret Service wanted him to leave.  In fact, they had sent agents out to guard his daughters, that is how palpable the sense of a wide ranging plot was. (Bishop, p. 250) Another indication is this: LBJ also told Kilduff to wait until he was gone before he addressed the press. (Bishop, p. 248). Johnson told Kilduff he would wait for Jackie. (Bishop p. 250)

It was Jackie Kennedy who said to O'Donnell, Powers and the Secret Service, "I'm not going to leave her without Jack."  She actually said this three times at different intervals. O'Donnell ordered a casket after the first time she said it.. (Manchester, p. 289) Clint Hill then picked out a casket at O"Neals. (ibid, p. 292) When they brought it back, Jackie looked at it.  O'Donnell then said, "We must get her out of here." (Bishop, p. 268) The body was loaded into the casket with Jackie watching.   Meanwhile the Pentagon calls Dallas and asks "Who is in charge?" Obviously worried about a big attack and what a response would be. (Bishop p. 272). LBJ calls the AG about taking the oath. (ibid.)

Kellerman is waiting for the death certificate from Clark so he can get the casket out to Air Force One ASAP. (Bishop p. 284) When he gets it the big confrontation with Earl Rose takes place. Manchester has a really good description of this.  No one in the Kennedy camp would listen to Rose, and this included Burkley.  O'Donnell was almost as vociferous in this as Kellerman. (Bishop p. 286, Manchester, p. 304). O'Donnell said, "I was in a panic to get out of there, that little lady just couldn't stand there with her husband's body that long." (Manchester, p. 306).   In fact, it was O'Donnell who gave the order to Kellerman to run over Rose. (Bishop, p. 286). Which they did.

Once they were out, Kellerman called AIr Force 1 and said they were on the way, as did O'Donnell. (Bishop p. 299) Kellerman described their vehicles and said once they were inside, to lock the gates. O'Donnell said to take off once they were on board. But Sarah Hughes was not there yet so they waited for her and Jackie for LBJ to take the oath. (Bishop, pp. 299-300). O'Donnell dreaded waiting since he thought Rose would follow them with a police detachment. (Bishop p. 306). AF One left at 2:47 PM

In about 75 pages of detail, I could find no order that Johnson demanded that Kennedy's corpse be taken out of the hospital over any objections by Jackie or Rose.  What happened is that Youngblood and Roberts wanted LBJ out of Dallas, as did the people in Washington. There really was a fear of a continuing plot. Once Youngblood made that decision then it was just a matter of waiting for Jackie.  And the decision to take the body out was clearly by JFK's assistants and the top level of the Secret Service.  

If someone can show me where this is wrong or something is missing, go ahead.  But please, unlike Hornberger, and Fetter, footnote your reply properly.

 

Thanks for posting that Jim.

The following sets up my comment:

1. An element of the CIA plotted the assassination, and also plotted the false flag operation designed to blame Cuba and Russia for it. The available evidence proves that.

2. The available evidence also proves that the Generals had been tasked with controlling the autopsy in a way that would cover up shots from he front. It occurred so quickly that it had to have been part of the CIA plot.

Note that numbers 1 and 2 contradict one another in that #1 indicates a conspiracy while #2 indicates a lone gunman. Why would the CIA plotters have designed the plot this way? Because had LBJ chosen NOT to take advantage of the prelude to war created by #1 (or not been convinced by it), the (faked) autopsy evidence would have allowed the authorities to proceed with the lone gunman solution to the assassination. Thereby eliminating the need for the US government to investigate further beyond the designated patsy. Which, of course, benefited the plotters.

For the plot to work, it was absolutely necessary that Kennedy's body be taken to Bethesda for the autopsy.

The above is roughly Peter Dale Scott's Phase-1/Phase-2 theory. The evidence for it is so strong, and it makes so much sense, that I consider the theory to be fact.

That said, it makes absolutely no sense for the plotters to have designed the plan to work the way it did if LBJ were an integral part of the plan. Because if LBJ were indeed an integral part, the plotters could have simply asked him if he wanted them to make it look like the Cubans or Russians were behind the assassination. They then could have planned the assassination accordingly. There would have been no need for a Phase-1/Phase-2 plan.

Therefore, your argument in this thread makes a lot of sense... that it was someone in the Secret Service who instigated the snatching of JFK's body from the Texas authorities.

One of the first SS agents you mentioned, Emory Roberts, makes a lot of sense for this role. He was the same agent who had instructed Agent Henry Rybka to fall back from the rear area of JFK's limousine, causing a perplexed Rybka to stop and raise his arms several times in protest.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

If any Cubans benefitted from this, it was the pro-Castro Cubans. That doesn’t necessarily mean Fidel Castro was behind it. It could have been Raul Castro or elements within Cuban intelligence.

There were definite attempts at back-channel negotiations between the Kennedy administration and Castro. However, JFK still made less than conciliatory remarks at the same time. The sabotage and assassination plots continued prompting Castro’s warning of retaliation in September, 1963.

Lisa Howard was one of the intermediaries used in the back channel discussions. Why did she turn so strongly anti-RFK and endorse Kenneth Keating (who initially made claims that the Soviets were placing missiles in Cuba) in the 1964 NY senate election?

https://www.nytimes.com/1964/09/29/archives/democrats-form-a-keating-group-120-liberals-say-kennedy-is-using.html

It’s widely believed that the Kennedys saved us from Operation Northwood. However, in the secret EXCOM tapes made during the Cuban Missile Crisis, they were attempting to justify a preemptive strike to take out the anti-aircraft defenses and the IRBMs. RFK himself proposed a sinking of a US ship in Guantanamo Bay even calling it a “Remember the Maine” event. I don’t believe JFK was in the room at the time. How much of Operation Northwood was regurgitating what RFK wanted to hear?

If I remember correctly, serious JFKA researcher Larry Hancock is open to the idea of pro-Castro elements either working with or manipulating LHO. 

In this scenario, the pro-Castro elements were probably aligned with double-agents, who were working within the US Cuban exile community, in which they learned about LHO. 

Well, anything is possible. 

One key element is the same: As LHO was a CIA asset, even if Castro elements had played a role, the whole situation had to be hushed up. The CIA could not have any story come out that a CIA asset had helped perp the JFKA, even if he had been manipulated by Cuban intel. 

 

[Kevin Balch]

8 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

That's interesting, Kevin. I know she was debriefed by Helms upon coming back from Cuba. So you think she got  wind of  RFK assassinations plots of Castro and turned against him?

Kevin: Keating (who initially made claims that the Soviets were placing missiles in Cuba) in the 1964 NY senate election?

By "initially"  you mean Keating made public statements as to the danger present prior to Oct. 1962?

I don’t know if she got wind of the plots but it would explain her animosity toward RFK. However, there were also a lot of other liberals who were not too keen on RFK for senate. Interestingly, LBJ outpolled RFK by a million votes in that election.

Yes, Keating was the first to bring public attention to the presence of Soviet troops and missiles in Cuba. It is he believed he based this info on reports from newly arrived exiles. The U2 surveillance flights had been paused at this time.

[Kevin Balch]

19 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Let us go to number two.

As demonstrated above the idea of a wider ranging plot was the Secret Service's idea specifically Youngblood, Roberts and also Kivett.  This is why they sent agents to guard his kids.  Kivett actually thought they were going to shoot Johnson in the hospital. Which is one reason they wanted him out of there.

The reason for the delay at the airfield was that no one knew if LBJ was the president yet. If he was not, then how could he order a counterattack if the Pentagon called him?  In fact, McNamara actually thought he was running that aspect.  Sarah Hughes was not in when they called her.  They had to locate her.  

Hornberger's third one, well Gibson dealt with that at length. The Commission was not Johnson's idea, plain and simple.  He resisted it.

As per Allen Dulles, he lobbied to get on the Commission, as proven by David Talbot.  The only guy to do that.

I am skeptical of the Secret Service being in on the plot as who in their right mind would knowingly drive into an ambush even if it was a single shooter. In “Executive Action” one of the teams practiced with the car driver in a helmet and heavy flak vest while the other actually towed the target car. Though it is interesting that it was Roberts that waved Rybka away from the presidential limo.

I wonder if there are any details in Manchester’s papers that are still locked up.

A plan that requires intercepting the body, altering the wounds, seizing/altering films and a cleanup squad leaves a lot that can go wrong.

[Kevin Balch]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If I remember correctly, serious JFKA researcher Larry Hancock is open to the idea of pro-Castro elements either working with or manipulating LHO. 

In this scenario, the pro-Castro elements were probably aligned with double-agents, who were working within the US Cuban exile community, in which they learned about LHO. 

Well, anything is possible. 

One key element is the same: As LHO was a CIA asset, even if Castro elements had played a role, the whole situation had to be hushed up. The CIA could not have any story come out that a CIA asset had helped perp the JFKA, even if he had been manipulated by Cuban intel. 

 

You bring up several interesting points that are worthy of further consideration.

One factor that has been overlooked is LHO’s psychological makeup. It’s often claimed that the Warren Commission was charged with painting LHO as a nut. But if anyone else had the childhood that LHO had, it would not be at all controversial to say he was likely to be outside of psychological norms. Someone who has been rejected all his life could be extremely motivated toward a particular cause (Marxism? Anti-communism?) and perhaps susceptible to the overtures of those that do accept him. LHO seemed to be enamored with the glamor of espionage which is what I think drew him to read James Bond novels. Such a person would relish the acceptance by CIA, FBI, ONI, Cuban intelligence. As the Burt Lancaster character put it in Executive Action,  “Possibly a little doubling”.

Cuba turning a US intelligence asset into an assassin or into an assassination plot would be an elegant way to get the US government to cover up the assassination.

[James DiEugenio]

I don't think it was Rybka.  I think it was Lawton.

And BTW, you know the way Roger said that there was evidence in Valenti's  book, A Very Human President, that somehow Johnson ordered Kennedy's body to be taken out of Parkland? And Hornberger repeated that here?

I drove 25 miles round trip to the LA Central Library to find that book.

It says no such thing.  Here are the relevant parts.

Valenti had to be cleared to get on AF One, that is how worried Youngblood  was about a continuing plot. (p. 46)

Johnson said they would wait for Jackie and the casket before they took off. (ibid)

Valenti confirmed the oath of office with Katzenbach, word by word, as Fehmer, wrote it down. (p. 47)

I could have predicted this outcome  because Manchester interviewed Valenti twice. And Jim Bishop talks about him in 13 sections of his long book, so he had to have done a very long interview with the man.  Therefore, what I wrote from Manchester and Bishop stands.  The decision to leave Parkland and roll over Rose was made by O'Donnell and Kellerman, since Jackie said she was not going back without the casket.

 

Edited May 2 by James DiEugenio

[Kevin Balch]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

I don't think it was Rybka.  I think it was Lawton.

You are correct. It was Lawton. If Clint Hill’s explanation is correct, how did that misunderstanding last so long? I did a check before making the comment and accepted the source identifying it as Rybka.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c3997797/user-clip-secret-service-confusion-love-field-explained

[Benjamin Cole]

13 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

You bring up several interesting points that are worthy of further consideration.

One factor that has been overlooked is LHO’s psychological makeup. It’s often claimed that the Warren Commission was charged with painting LHO as a nut. But if anyone else had the childhood that LHO had, it would not be at all controversial to say he was likely to be outside of psychological norms. Someone who has been rejected all his life could be extremely motivated toward a particular cause (Marxism? Anti-communism?) and perhaps susceptible to the overtures of those that do accept him. LHO seemed to be enamored with the glamor of espionage which is what I think drew him to read James Bond novels. Such a person would relish the acceptance by CIA, FBI, ONI, Cuban intelligence. As the Burt Lancaster character put it in Executive Action,  “Possibly a little doubling”.

Cuba turning a US intelligence asset into an assassin or into an assassination plot would be an elegant way to get the US government to cover up the assassination.

LHO--

At his late date, knowing the "true LHO" may be an exercise in futility. 

His reading lists from N.O. library were a lot broader than spy novels, and some of it every elevated. 

In Russia, LHO formed a serious friendship with Ernest Titovets, who regarded him highly. Titovets is much an intellectual, with PhD etc. 

In the US, De Mohrenschildt discussed War and Peace in the original Russian with LHO. Also regarded his intellect highly. 

LHO's manuscript on Russia, written when he 23, and sans college education, shows an active and insightful mind. And it is something of a first draft. How many of your first drafts from age 23 would you like someone to read? 

In high school, LHO joined the chess and astronomy clubs, and played chess through his military service. No, who plays chess? 

LHO got through Marine boot camp at age 16 (17?). 

Was LHO "rejected" his whole life? By who? His supervisor at TSBD, Frazier, regarded him as a solid worker. LHO had made many friends in the Russia, and got married. 

Like millions of other American boys from modest circumstances (especially back in the 1960s), he joined the military when he could. 

His wife, Marina, remarked of LHO "he was always reading." 

LHO's last landlady said he was kind to kids. 

Could LHO been attracted to intel work? Sure, most young men, with limited options, would be. Did he become a US intel asset? I suspect so. 

But how well can any of us know LHO today? Based on what? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Sandy:

I must say that John Newman also agrees with Scott on his Phase One and Phase two model.

I don't care to call it a theory, since I agree with you, that it is pretty close to what happened.  So I don't think it can be called something theoretical.

I think the ground level perps wanted an attack on Cuba, I mean look at the DRE for one.

But a friend of mine brought this up to me: Jim was there really a tandem plan or was it planned all along to revert to Phase two?

I have to say that is pretty insightful.

[Roger Odisio]

16 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I don't think it was Rybka.  I think it was Lawton.

And BTW, you know the way Roger said that there was evidence in Valenti's  book, A Very Human President, that somehow Johnson ordered Kennedy's body to be taken out of Parkland? And Hornberger repeated that here?

I drove 25 miles round trip to the LA Central Library to find that book.

It says no such thing.  Here are the relevant parts.

Valenti had to be cleared to get on AF One, that is how worried Youngblood  was about a continuing plot. (p. 46)

Johnson said they would wait for Jackie and the casket before they took off. (ibid)

Valenti confirmed the oath of office with Katzenbach, word by word, as Fehmer, wrote it down. (p. 47)

I could have predicted this outcome  because Manchester interviewed Valenti twice. And Jim Bishop talks about him in 13 sections of his long book, so he had to have done a very long interview with the man.  Therefore, what I wrote from Manchester and Bishop stands.  The decision to leave Parkland and roll over Rose was made by O'Donnell and Kellerman, since Jackie said she was not going back without the casket.

 

 

https://www.patspeer.com/chapter-21-rorschach-test   Scroll down to near the end to read Pat's research about the Valenti  statement.

 

In a Dec 7, 2023 EF thread "the Exoneration of Lyndon Johnson", p.3, Pat Speer wrote the following:

 

"In his 1975 defense of Johnson, A Very Human President, former Johnson aide Jack Valenti offered up a fascinating insight into Johnson's actions on 11-22-63. Valenti sat with Johnson on the plane while waiting for Mrs. Kennedy, and was intimately aware of Johnson's thoughts during this period. He wrote of Johnson's decision to be sworn-into office as soon as possible--which, while unnecessary, was nevertheless politically desirable. He then added“before Air Force One departed for Washington, Johnson had also made his first command decision, on his own, to wait for the body of the dead president to be brought aboard before he gave an order to be airborne. This was an intuitive decision and a good one.” So... Johnson, a man famous for seeking advice, had decided not to leave without the body, and had come to this decision entirely on his own, after reaching Air Force One. Hmmm... "

 

Looks like Pat was quoting from Valenti's book doesn't it?  I tried to send Pat a note thru EF to verify where the quote comes from, but got the message that he can't receive notes.

 

Turns it doesn't matter whether your claim is true that the reported passage is not in Valenti's '75 book. That somehow Pat and Horneberger quoted something that wasn't there. Or whatever you're claiming.

 

It doesn't matter because on his site Pat documents about 10 *other* times Valenti told the same story.  Here they are, with discussion.

 

"And this wasn't a one-time misstatement. In a 1978 WBBM interview with Bob Wallace (found on youtube), Valenti repeated and expanded upon this claim. He said that, after reaching Air Force One, “Johnson made two decisions: one, that he would not leave without the body of President Kennedy aboard. And second, as an act of symbolism--he didn't need to--he was gonna be sworn-in on that airplane. And so we waited for some minutes until the body of the slain president could be brought aboard. He was not about to return to Washington without the body...There was some confusion about the local coroner, the red tape. But Johnson was adamant that he was not leaving until the dead president's body was aboard.”

 

In a demonstration of both Valenti's certainty on this point, and his confusion regarding others, moreover, he told the Kennedy Library, in an oral history performed 5-25-82, that while he observed little tension between Johnson and the Kennedy faction on the plane back from Dallas, he did see General Godfrey McHugh “running rather hysterically up and down the airplane. Trying to take charge.” He then offered “The new president gave orders that he was going to wait for the body of the late president, of which McHugh was furious about.” Valenti had forgotten, one can only assume, that McHugh had arrived with the body of the late President, and was trying to get the plane airborne, unaware that Johnson was on the plane, refusing to let it take off until he'd been sworn-in.

 

And that wasn't the last time Valenti made this mistake about McHugh. An article by Valenti published in the 11-22-88 Washington Post related that, upon his arrival at the plane: “Gen. Godfrey McHugh, President Kennedy's Air Force aide, now seemingly in command of the presidential plane, had ordered it into the air. He did not know that LBJ had already communicated to the pilot that Air Force One was not to depart until President Kennedy's body had been brought aboard.” The body, not the widow.

 

By the time of his 7-15-91 interview with Deborah Hart Strober and Gerald S. Strober, thankfully, Valenti stopped claiming McHugh arrived before the body. He did, however, continue making his other claim: that Johnson was waiting for Kennedy's body, and not Mrs. Kennedy. He said that on the plane “Johnson made two command decisions that, in retrospect, were so right; one was that he wasn't going to leave without the coffin of the thirty-fifth president; number two, he wanted to be sworn-in so that the picture of that swearing-in would be flashed around the world...”

 

In an 11-21-93 article in the Washington Post, discussing the events of 11-22-63, moreover, Valenti further recalled that, once aboard Air Force One, “Johnson made two command decisions: First he would be sworn-in aboard Air Force One...Second, he would not leave Dallas until the coffin of the 35th president had been brought aboard. Though Bobby Kennedy had counseled otherwise, the new president was firm.”

 

And that wasn't the last time Valenti claimed Johnson was waiting for Kennedy's body, with no mention of his purportedly all-encompassing concern for Mrs. Kennedy. No, far from it. An 11-22-98 New York Times article by Valenti confirmed that, after installing himself on Air Force One, Johnson's “first decision was that he would not leave Dallas without the body of President Kennedy on board”and that “his second decision was to be sworn-in on the plane, before departure.” An 11-20-03 article by Valenti in USA Today similarly claimed: “On Air Force One, I observed how LBJ, when the dagger was at the nation's belly and his own, made historical decisions quickly and decisively. While the rest of the plane's occupants were in varying states of hysteria, LBJ was supernaturally calm, as if he had brought all his volcanic passions under stern harness. He made, on the spot, two key visionary decisions. First, although he was urged to get in the air immediately for his safety, he said, "No, I will not leave until the body of President Kennedy is brought aboard." Second, he was determined to be sworn-in as president on the plane, although Justice Department officials insisted he already was president. But Johnson wanted a photograph of his formal ascension to the presidency to be flashed around the globe, to soothe a frightened nation and an equally fearful world.”

 

An 11-22-03 AP article on Valenti by Sharon Theimer then echoed this claim, reporting:“Johnson made two decisions instantly, Valenti said: He refused to let Air Force One take him back to Washington without Kennedy's body on board, and insisted on taking the oath of office on the plane. A deputy attorney general assured Johnson he already was president, but Johnson took the oath there anyway...

”And, no, that wasn't the last of it, either.

 

In his 2007 memoir This Time, This Place, Valenti claimed yet again and for the permanent record that Johnson "understood intuitively that he could not leave the body of President Kennedy alone in Dallas."

 

Well, this is curious, and a bit suspicious to those inclined to suspicion. Why would Johnson refuse to leave Dallas without the President's body--to which he had no right? Valenti's explanation in the Times article that “LBJ foresaw that he would be maligned for being so eager to be President that he left behind his predecessor's body” makes little sense in that the alternative--that he would quite correctly be criticized for forcing Kennedy's widow to wait around on the tarmac in Dallas for an additional 30-40 minutes, and then stand by him in her blood-stained clothes during an unnecessary swearing-in ceremony--was something he should also have foreseen, and avoided.

 

Valenti's latter-day recollections just can't be ignored. There is reason, after all, to believe his latter-day recollections are in fact not so latter day... Valenti's 1975 book on Johnson, A Very Human President, in which he first mentioned Johnson's interest in Kennedy's body, also contains Valenti's notes on a July 25, 1964 background discussion between Johnson and two newsmen, Dan Rather of CBS News and Bob Thompson of the L.A. Times. These notes state:“Mr. Johnson, in reply to a direct question, said that he had thought an international conspiracy might be underway to 'flatten us out.' Because of this concern, the president said, he ordered that Air Force One be moved at the airport. Then, he said, he decided to go directly to the plane from Parkland Hospital. Even beyond that point, the president said, he had grave doubts about the advisability of 'sitting at the airport' for two hours, but he felt it imperative that President Kennedy's body be returned immediately to Washington.”

 

No mention of Mrs. Kennedy, or of Johnson's simply acquiescing to her wishes when he flew home with the body of her recently murdered husband. No mention that there was a second jet standing by for Mrs. Kennedy and the body should Johnson have left immediately, as proposed by his advisers. No mention of his determination that she not fly home alone. No, here, according to Valenti's contemporaneous notes of a Johnson background discussion with two newsmen, was Johnson himself claiming that he was waiting for the body--the BODY--because he felt it imperative it be returned to Washington'

 

There's also this. In his January 11, 1967 column on the events on the tarmac in Dallas, we should recall, Drew Pearson reported that “It took about an hour to overcome local red tape and drive Kennedy's body to the waiting airplane.”He then explained:“Air Force One, the Presidential plane, had been waiting for Kennedy's body. This delay was on the personal order of the new President, *and contrary to the wishes of the Secret Service* [emphasis added].”And, no, Pearson's reference to the body wasn't a typo, or shorthand for "Mrs Kennedy who was traveling with the body." A few paragraphs later, he repeated that“Johnson ordered the plane to wait for Kennedy's body.”The BODY...

 

Pearson's column thereby adds weight to Valenti's subsequent statements suggesting Johnson's preoccupation on 11-22-63 was not with Mrs. Kennedy, but with her husband's body. Even if Valenti was by chance Pearson's sole source for these statements, moreover, it proves Valenti's recollections were fully formed by 1967, and not something that slipped out later.

 

Did you notice what Drew Pearson said?  He directly refutes your claim. Johnson's order to snatch the body was "contrary to the wishes of the Secret Service".

 

Is that enough for you to, reconsider your claim Jim? I understand why you dont like to admit mistakes, but... Your whole "that wasn't Johnson's idea but someone else's" mantra is collapsing.

 

JD had asserted:   The decision to leave Parkland and roll over Rose was made by O'Donnell and Kellerman, since Jackie said she was not going back without the casket.

 

RO: Not only is this clearly wrong, it makes no sense.  O'Donnell and Kellerman would never had made such major decision, and broke the law, without Johnson, the new president, knowing about it. Moreover, AF2 was still there to take Jackie and JFK back to DC when the legally mandated autopsy was finished. At Jackie's convenience. Dr. Rose was ready to do the autopsy at Parkland when Johnson ordered the body snatched.

 

As Pat says, this was about snatching the body, not Jackie. Jackie and the body got to the plane about half an hour before Judge Sarah Hughes.  Johnson made her wait around in bloody clothes with no air conditioning on the plane while he awaited his ceremony.

 

We know why Johnson went to such great lengths to illegally snatch the body: to do what was necessary to conceal the evidence (that Rose would have uncovered) of what really happened, including faking the autopsy at Bethesda.

 

Just another example, like the creation of the WC, of Johnson serving the interests of the killers.

[Kevin Balch]

10 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

LHO--

At his late date, knowing the "true LHO" may be an exercise in futility. 

His reading lists from N.O. library were a lot broader than spy novels, and some of it every elevated. 

In Russia, LHO formed a serious friendship with Ernest Titovets, who regarded him highly. Titovets is much an intellectual, with PhD etc. 

In the US, De Mohrenschildt discussed War and Peace in the original Russian with LHO. Also regarded his intellect highly. 

LHO's manuscript on Russia, written when he 23, and sans college education, shows an active and insightful mind. And it is something of a first draft. How many of your first drafts from age 23 would you like someone to read? 

In high school, LHO joined the chess and astronomy clubs, and played chess through his military service. No, who plays chess? 

LHO got through Marine boot camp at age 16 (17?). 

Was LHO "rejected" his whole life? By who? His supervisor at TSBD, Frazier, regarded him as a solid worker. LHO had made many friends in the Russia, and got married. 

Like millions of other American boys from modest circumstances (especially back in the 1960s), he joined the military when he could. 

His wife, Marina, remarked of LHO "he was always reading." 

LHO's last landlady said he was kind to kids. 

Could LHO been attracted to intel work? Sure, most young men, with limited options, would be. Did he become a US intel asset? I suspect so. 

But how well can any of us know LHO today? Based on what? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One can be of above average intelligence and still have severe psychological issues.

[Joe Bauer]

19 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

One can be of above average intelligence and still have severe psychological issues.

Of course. Same goes for people of wealth. Stable genius.

[Kevin Balch]

On 5/2/2024 at 1:25 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Thanks for posting that Jim.

The following sets up my comment:

1. An element of the CIA plotted the assassination, and also plotted the false flag operation designed to blame Cuba and Russia for it. The available evidence proves that.

2. The available evidence also proves that the Generals had been tasked with controlling the autopsy in a way that would cover up shots from he front. It occurred so quickly that it had to have been part of the CIA plot.

Note that numbers 1 and 2 contradict one another in that #1 indicates a conspiracy while #2 indicates a lone gunman. Why would the CIA plotters have designed the plot this way? Because had LBJ chosen NOT to take advantage of the prelude to war created by #1 (or not been convinced by it), the (faked) autopsy evidence would have allowed the authorities to proceed with the lone gunman solution to the assassination. Thereby eliminating the need for the US government to investigate further beyond the designated patsy. Which, of course, benefited the plotters.

For the plot to work, it was absolutely necessary that Kennedy's body be taken to Bethesda for the autopsy.

The above is roughly Peter Dale Scott's Phase-1/Phase-2 theory. The evidence for it is so strong, and it makes so much sense, that I consider the theory to be fact.

That said, it makes absolutely no sense for the plotters to have designed the plan to work the way it did if LBJ were an integral part of the plan. Because if LBJ were indeed an integral part, the plotters could have simply asked him if he wanted them to make it look like the Cubans or Russians were behind the assassination. They then could have planned the assassination accordingly. There would have been no need for a Phase-1/Phase-2 plan.

Therefore, your argument in this thread makes a lot of sense... that it was someone in the Secret Service who instigated the snatching of JFK's body from the Texas authorities.

One of the first SS agents you mentioned, Emory Roberts, makes a lot of sense for this role. He was the same agent who had instructed Agent Henry Rybka to fall back from the rear area of JFK's limousine, causing a perplexed Rybka to stop and raise his arms several times in protest.

 

How could the plotters be absolutely sure they could remove all or enough evidence of a shot from the front? What if one of the shots missed and only wounded one of the other occupants in the limo? Or embedded itself in the limo such that it unambiguously came from the front?

[Kevin Balch]

6 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Of course. Same goes for people of wealth. Stable genius.

An FBI criminal profiler stated in an LA Times article several years ago that there is a lot overlap between politicians, corporate executives and military leaders and psychopaths.