Nick Bartetzko Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 13 hours ago, Mike Aitken said: That said, I can’t think of any reason why anyone in intelligence or law enforcement would show a bunch of college kids or random strangers a secret film of the assassination of the president. In my opinion, at best, maybe a researcher had an early copy of the Zapruder film and showed it on college campuses in the same way that Groden did. With all the reenactments, etc. over the years, who knows what might have affected people’s memories. Whether the film that was shown was the same that we have available now or an unedited film is beyond me. If it was the the “other film” or the Zapruder film, in unedited condition, where is that film now? Your logic is quite good, but we're dealing with human nature, egos, carelessness etc. Apparently Secret Service access to these materials back then wasn't very strict. That might account for Secret Service agent James Fox making his set of the autopsy photographs available around 1981. That was a significant turning point for Lifton and other researchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Bartetzko Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 22 hours ago, Ron Bulman said: Nick, Greg is still an active member in good standing here on the forum. He last visited in March, last posted in February (Researchers We've Lost thread). We have a personal e-mail on file which I don't think I'm supposed to give out. But, by clicking on his name/image anyone here can view his profile from which anyone here can send him a Personal Message. His message file is not full, but I didn't check to see if he's accepting PM's or not. Greg Burnham - The Education Forum (ipbhost.com) It looks like his website is still active too. Assassination of JFK - A Study in the Assassination of JFK Ron, I have an answer from Greg. It's not quite as I remembered it, but here are the remaining names he provided: Scott Myers, Millicent Cranor and William Reymond. I will post a brief portion of Greg's response as he wanted to make this point. "Just to be clear, none of us can be certain that the “other film(s)” that each of us saw was the same film as what the others saw. It is possible—and maybe even likely—that it was the same film, but we can not know for sure." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Aitken Posted May 22 Author Share Posted May 22 6 hours ago, Nick Bartetzko said: Your logic is quite good, but we're dealing with human nature, egos, carelessness etc. Apparently Secret Service access to these materials back then wasn't very strict. That might account for Secret Service agent James Fox making his set of the autopsy photographs available around 1981. That was a significant turning point for Lifton and other researchers. just some thoughts… Burnham mentions that there were other students at the viewing. Has anyone else said that they saw a film of the Kennedy Assassination at the University of Maryland in the 1970s, prior to the release of the Zapruder film? I live and work in the DC area, including College Park, and the National Archives are right around the corner from College Park. This seems to me like the most likely source of whatever film Burnham was shown. The NSA is also very close to College Park, which is another possibility. If the source of the film had been from the CIA and they had just wanted to show it on a college campus, a Virginia school seems more likely. Also, although the FBI headquarters is just down Route 1 from College Park, George Washington University in Foggy Bottom is much closer (and right across the street from the old CIA HQ). As for the alleged film itself, would someone from the Archives or one of the intelligence/law enforcement agencies risk taking an original film off property, or would they have made a copy? I can’t imagine someone would have taken an original film, so a copy seems more likely. If so, where is this film now and who has possession of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Aitken Posted May 22 Author Share Posted May 22 6 hours ago, Nick Bartetzko said: Ron, I have an answer from Greg. It's not quite as I remembered it, but here are the remaining names he provided: Scott Myers, Millicent Cranor and William Reymond. I will post a brief portion of Greg's response as he wanted to make this point. "Just to be clear, none of us can be certain that the “other film(s)” that each of us saw was the same film as what the others saw. It is possible—and maybe even likely—that it was the same film, but we can not know for sure." To me the most logical explanation is that all of these people saw the Zapruder film, whether it was in an unaltered or altered condition. Cameras, especially professional-grade cameras, were not easy to conceal and it just seems like if someone had been filming from the grassy knoll area, there would have been witnesses and/or photographs or film footage of the person. I dunno, it’s just hard to imagine someone filming from that area without anybody noticing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Aitken Posted May 22 Author Share Posted May 22 There’s also the other “other film” that Robert Tannenbaum and his staff allegedly found in the library at Catholic University during the HSCA investigation. That film was allegedly a film of a CIA training camp, I believe near Lake Pontchartrain in Louisiana, which showed Oswald with a bunch of CIA and Cuban operatives. The film supposedly disappeared from the HSCA vault at some point during the investigation. Jim asks Tanenbaum about the film in one of his podcast interviews. Tanenbaum also describes the film in his semi-fictional novel, Corruption of Blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 38 minutes ago, Mike Aitken said: To me the most logical explanation is that all of these people saw the Zapruder film, whether it was in an unaltered or altered condition. Cameras, especially professional-grade cameras, were not easy to conceal and it just seems like if someone had been filming from the grassy knoll area, there would have been witnesses and/or photographs or film footage of the person. I dunno, it’s just hard to imagine someone filming from that area without anybody noticing. I doubt it myself. But somewhere recessed? Second floor of the TSBD, one office was reportedly locked if I remember right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 (edited) 8 hours ago, Mike Aitken said: I dunno, it’s just hard to imagine someone filming from that area without anybody noticing. If you search the older threads (c. 2006-2008) for "pergola" and "Charles Hester," you'll find discussion of men purportedly filming from the concrete pavilion at the west end of the pergola beside the grassy knoll - and behind Zapruder. The pictures that were uploaded there may survive online, or could be requested from someone who downloaded them at the time. I'm not presenting this research as proof, but it was interesting to consider. Edited May 22 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ege Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 1 hour ago, David Andrews said: If you search the older threads (c. 2006-2008) for "pergola" and "Charles Hester," you'll find discussion of men purportedly filming from the concrete pavilion at the west end of the pergola beside the grassy knoll - and behind Zapruder. The pictures that were uploaded there may survive online, or could be requested from someone who downloaded them at the time. I'm not presenting this research as proof, but it was interesting to consider. David, thanks. You seem to have an outstanding memory! Years ago, I have a faint memory of reading a post or article somewhere which argued there was a shooter from the pergola, and the post/article included photographs which purported to show the shooter/rifle. Do you or anyone here remember it and know what if there was any possible legitimacy to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Bartetzko Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 8 hours ago, Ron Ege said: David, thanks. You seem to have an outstanding memory! Years ago, I have a faint memory of reading a post or article somewhere which argued there was a shooter from the pergola, and the post/article included photographs which purported to show the shooter/rifle. Do you or anyone here remember it and know what if there was any possible legitimacy to it? Yes, I have a vague recollection of that, but nothing more...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Aitken Posted May 22 Author Share Posted May 22 10 hours ago, David Andrews said: If you search the older threads (c. 2006-2008) for "pergola" and "Charles Hester," you'll find discussion of men purportedly filming from the concrete pavilion at the west end of the pergola beside the grassy knoll - and behind Zapruder. The pictures that were uploaded there may survive online, or could be requested from someone who downloaded them at the time. I'm not presenting this research as proof, but it was interesting to consider. I’ve been browsing through the archives looking for “pergola” and “Charles Hester” but there are so many posts to sort through. Found this in one thread but it lacks any background information or context: ”Also, Harrison E. Livingston wrote on page 194 of "The Radical Right And The Murder Of John F. Kennedy..." that "The subjects (that) Zapruder filmed in Dealey Plaza shortly before President Kennedy's fatal motorcade came along were Marilyn Sitzman and Beatrice and Charles Hester. Charles Hester owned a company called Commercial Photography. The question is, was the Hester couple related to Robert and Pat Hester, parents of Vicky Mayne, who were part owners with Fritz and Helen Holland, of The National Film Company, a lab that Vicky Mayne told me actually developed numerous of the films and photographs, including photos of the body at Parkland which she saw and which made her throw up (Killing The Truth p. 511-512). She told me she had helped develop the Zapruder film." It is Livingston's theory that "It is reasonable that another person was operating a camera close by Zapruder with essentially the same perspective, perhaps in the 'pill box' just behind Zapruder in the pergola." JG” From this thread: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Aitken Posted May 22 Author Share Posted May 22 Is there a source or any further information regarding why Livingston(e?) believed that there was another person filming from the pergola? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keven Hofeling Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 38 minutes ago, Nick Bartetzko said: Yes, I have a vague recollection of that, but nothing more...... I also have a vague memory of the pergola shooter evidence that you and @Ron Ege are referring to. Seems to me I saw it in "Murder in Dealey Plaza" or one of the other anthologies that was edited by Jim Fetzer in the 1990's. More recently, I saw it in a video that @Keyvan Shahrdar posted in another thread (and which Shahrdar seems to feel particularly strongly about) which I have linked you to below (Cued for you to 1:33 of the video in advance): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Blackmon Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 33 minutes ago, Keven Hofeling said: I also have a vague memory of the pergola shooter evidence that you and @Ron Ege are referring to. Seems to me I saw it in "Murder in Dealey Plaza" or one of the other anthologies that was edited by Jim Fetzer in the 1990's. More recently, I saw it in a video that @Keyvan Shahrdar posted in another thread (and which Shahrdar seems to feel particularly strongly about) which I have linked you to below (Cued for you to 1:33 of the video in advance): I have seen this video before but do not recall any discussion of it until now (that doesn't mean there wasn't some discussion of course). There is definite movement of some kind in the 3rd window from the bottom. Everyone with an open mind should take a look at this video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Bartetzko Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 5 hours ago, Keven Hofeling said: I also have a vague memory of the pergola shooter evidence that you and @Ron Ege are referring to. Seems to me I saw it in "Murder in Dealey Plaza" or one of the other anthologies that was edited by Jim Fetzer in the 1990's. More recently, I saw it in a video that @Keyvan Shahrdar posted in another thread (and which Shahrdar seems to feel particularly strongly about) which I have linked you to below (Cued for you to 1:33 of the video in advance): Thanks for posting. I've seen some of his videos and he is thorough. I don't agree with his conclusion here as to a rifle and shot. I think there's enough eyewitness testimony as to a gunshot(s) and/or smoke at the corner of the fence. That third window in height seems higher than a gunman could stand and aim without stepping on something for additional height. I have walked through the pergola and as I recall it's accessible via the rear walkway that parallels the picket fence. I have a recollection of Zapruder saying a shot came from behind him and maybe to his right. But I have no way to source that. There are discussions about filming within that pergola and maybe seeing the reflection of the lens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 34 minutes ago, Nick Bartetzko said: Thanks for posting. I've seen some of his videos and he is thorough. I don't agree with his conclusion here as to a rifle and shot. I think there's enough eyewitness testimony as to a gunshot(s) and/or smoke at the corner of the fence. That third window in height seems higher than a gunman could stand and aim without stepping on something for additional height. I have walked through the pergola and as I recall it's accessible via the rear walkway that parallels the picket fence. I have a recollection of Zapruder saying a shot came from behind him and maybe to his right. But I have no way to source that. There are discussions about filming within that pergola and maybe seeing the reflection of the lens. I've always taken Zapruder's statement of behind to the right to mean the GK/behind the fence. I guess a second film could have been done from inside the pergola. Which I've considered before but why, by who? It would have to have been done secretly. By someone knowing in advance the assassination was going to happen, and, wanting a filmed record of it, for what purpose? Zapruder forgot his camera, his secretary urged him to go back home and get it. Then stood beside him to keep him from falling. He was a really high degree Mason FWIW. Oh no. Why did I mention that. Now it will be stuck in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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