Vote Trump for JFKA info?

[Kirk Gallaway]

22 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Your argument is non-existent, since you fail to address any of the issues raised.

The only credible news sources are those backing a Trump dictatorship?

Yes John, an elder self proclaimed  something/anarchist* is conveniently above any specifics Cliff!

I understand John loves J.D. Vance  solely for his beard!

 

Heh heh heh

* I apologize.  I wish I could remember what "something" was because it was really funny!

 

Rigby pulls out 2 gems in a row! Wasn't Zero hedge  first pulled out by Wheeler?

And now the Sly Stallone of Trumpist internet podcasters.  Alleged insurance pyramid Ponzi schemer Patrick Daniel Beto David!  Rigby first became familiar with him by attending his seminars!

Beto David went on Joe Rogan solely to beg him to reconsider and interview Trump!

 

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

23 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Cotter somehow missed the criticisms of Biden's Gaza policy.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

The only "argument" Democrats for the most part use here in response to criticism of that party is ad hominem (claiming that the opponent is stupid or ignorant) combined with whataboutery (claiming that it doesn't matter how bad the Democrats are, since the Republicans or the Russians are worse).

That's funny.  I could swear it was John Cotter who posted a Piers Morgan interview with Jeffrey Sachs, the question concerned Putin's barbarity in Ukraine and Sachs replied Look At America.

[John Cotter]

5 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

 

That's funny.  I could swear it was John Cotter who posted a Piers Morgan interview with Jeffrey Sachs, the question concerned Putin's barbarity in Ukraine and Sachs replied Look At America.

The Biden administration and the Democratic presidential candidate Harris unequivocally support in material terms the genocide in Gaza, and they could put a stop to it at the drop of a hat.

Voting for the Democratic party in any shape or form is voting for the continuation of that genocide, notwithstanding hand-wringing about it in a forum such as this - which hand-wringing and "Spenlow and Jorkins" type misdirection seems to be a ploy much favoured by you, Cliff.

Piers Morgan tried to frame his interview with Professor Sachs in terms of the default US/NATO lie that the Ukraine war is not a US proxy war and that it began in February 2022. Prof Sachs corrected that misrepresentation by explaining that the US was and remains the primary aggressor.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

7 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

The Biden administration and the Democratic presidential candidate Harris unequivocally support in material terms the genocide in Gaza, and they could put a stop to it at the drop of a hat.

Voting for the Democratic party in any shape or form is voting for the continuation of that genocide, notwithstanding hand-wringing about it in a forum such as this - which hand-wringing and "Spenlow and Jorkins" type misdirection seems to be a ploy much favoured by you, Cliff.

Piers Morgan tried to frame his interview with Professor Sachs in terms of the default US/NATO lie that the Ukraine war is not a US proxy war and that it began in February 2022. Prof Sachs corrected that misrepresentation by explaining that the US was and remains the primary aggressor.

 

Buy aligning themselves with Hamas, Tehran and Putin, the left wing is committing suicide. I sure hope so anyway.

[John Cotter]

1 minute ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Buy aligning themselves with Hamas, Tehran and Putin, the left wing is committing suicide. I sure hope so anyway.

So you support the genocide in Gaza and the carnage in Ukraine.

That's nice.

[Benjamin Cole]

Just now, John Cotter said:

So you support the genocide in Gaza and the carnage in Ukraine.

That's nice.

Unfortunately, the Little Hitlers never go down easy.

[W. Niederhut]

15 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Buy aligning themselves with Hamas, Tehran and Putin, the left wing is committing suicide. I sure hope so anyway.

Huh?

On what planet, Ben?

Can you name any non-Trumpsters around here who support Putin, Tehran, Hamas, or the Gaza genocide?

Trump and your candidate, RFK, Jr., both called for Netanyahu to "finish the job" of obliterating Gaza.

Incidentally, did you and John Cotter listen to Vice President Harris' acceptance speech in Chicago?

Judging from your erroneous comments, it sounds like you did not.

[Cliff Varnell]

36 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

The Biden administration and the Democratic presidential candidate Harris unequivocally support in material terms the genocide in Gaza, and they could put a stop to it at the drop of a hat.

I've expressed my opposition to the Gaza policy repeatedly.

36 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

Voting for the Democratic party in any shape or form is voting for the continuation of that genocide, notwithstanding hand-wringing about it in a forum such as this - which hand-wringing and "Spenlow and Jorkins" type misdirection seems to be a ploy much favoured by you, Cliff.

I'm not a one-issue voter.  Why don't you ever back up your snarky little jabs with an actual specific argument, for once?

36 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

Piers Morgan tried to frame his interview with Professor Sachs in terms of the default US/NATO lie that the Ukraine war is not a US proxy war and that it began in February 2022. Prof Sachs corrected that misrepresentation by explaining that the US was and remains the primary aggressor.

 

The question Morgan asked concerned Putin's brutality.  Sachs never answered.  Do you watch the videos you post?

[Benjamin Cole]

12 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Huh?

On what planet, Ben?

Can you name any non-Trumpsters around here who support Putin, Tehran, Hamas, or the Gaza genocide?

Trump and your candidate, RFK, Jr., both called for Netanyahu to "finish the job" of obliterating Gaza.

Incidentally, did you and John Cotter listen to Vice President Harris' acceptance speech in Chicago?

Judging from your erroneous comments, it sounds like you did not.

I like RFK2's stance on Israel.  

I stand by my sentiments regarding Putin, Tehran and Kaka Sinwar. Variations of Little Hitlers.

I stand corrected on one point. It is elements within the right wing and GOP that seem to want to roll over for Putin. 

I am concerned by racists in the right-wing, and anti-Semitic crackpots in the left-wing, weighing too heavily even on international policies of the major parties.

I do not denigrate others for having different points of view. 

My views are not your views. 

[Greg Doudna]

33 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

The Biden administration and the Democratic presidential candidate Harris unequivocally support in material terms the genocide in Gaza, and they could put a stop to it at the drop of a hat.

Voting for the Democratic party in any shape or form is voting for the continuation of that genocide ...

If your point is coming out of genuine horror at what has happened in Gaza and desire to stop US arms sales when world courts are calling the ways those arms are being used genocidal, I don't dispute that. But you are spinning this in a way that appears to be weaponizing this issue out of a more fundamental desire to take down the Harris candidacy, and I will explain why.

I do not believe it is factually accurate when you say Harris "unequivocally support[s]" the materiel and arms sold to the Netanyahu regime behaving genocidally. So far as I can tell, Harris has (a) unequivocally supported US aid to Israel to defend itself; (b) has not spoken in opposition to president Biden's unconditional continuation of arms sales; but (c) in her own policy statement in her convention address, cited existing US law that aid and arms sales cannot be given in cases of human rights violations, and she cited that with reference to Gaza. That is NOT "unequivocal" in formal terms. That is formally a statement of conditionality or equivocation on the future aid policy issue. 

Just in the interests of accuracy. Of course, what that means in how it plays out is an unknown. But that is not the narrow point here, which is your claim that Harris personally "unequivocally support[s]" continued arms sales to the Netanyahu regime used genocidally. And that is not factually accurate in terms of her stated position.

When you say "they could put a stop to it at the drop of a hat", I do not believe it is factually accurate that Harris could "put a stop to it at the drop of a hat".

She is not president, you know.

Could a sitting vice president unilaterally "put a stop to it at the drop of a hat"? How? "At the drop of a hat"? Is there some order a vice president could issue that would override a president and just stop it tomorrow? Really??

When you say, "Voting for the Democratic Party in any shape or form is voting for the continuation of that genocide..." that sounds like the leap to the weaponized point that seems to be your real point, i.e. do not vote for Harris in the upcoming election. Taken literally, are you saying voting for a Democrat in a local school board election, or for a governor of a state, is "voting for the continuation of that genocide"? Well, maybe you meant "in a presidential election", OK, fair enough if that is what you meant.

Except it makes little sense. The fact is Harris is an unknown in terms of what she says she will do on this aid policy question. I understand she appears to be in sync with Biden's rhetorical criticism of the Netanyahu regime for overreach while continuing the arms deliveries unabated. But she is not in power either over those arms deliveries. I think the most objective description would be she has shown no sign of departing from the Biden policy, but at the same time is an unknown.

But in a two-party system if you don't vote to elect one party you get the other. And NOT voting for the Democratic presidential candidate, Harris, if that is the fundamental conclusion you wish to have, has the predictable consequence of assisting the election of the other candidate, Trump, and with Trump he is full-throated in support of the Netanyahu regime's scorched-earth and advocates in bloodthirsty language to just go for it and "finish the job", language that I have never heard Harris talk that way. So that's the alternative--a candidate who rhetorically talks full-throated support for what the Netanyahu regime is doing in Gaza, versus the actual unknown, Harris.

And second, I still get emails from Bernie Sanders, about once or twice a week. Bernie Sanders Democrats I would say are close to half of the grassroots base of the Party. And Bernie Sanders, though he is too old to ever be a presidential candidate himself again (he came close to winning the nomination twice previously), is right out there, front and center, right now, publicly, calling for "not one more dime" to the Netanyahu regime as long as the war crimes continue.

Whereas there is nothing comparable on the Republican side (that I can see). Where is a Bernie-like voice on the Republican side, once genuine anti-semites are taken out of consideration? Where is the non-anti-semitic opposition to "one more dime" of arms sales, and call for an immediate cease-fire, on the Republican side, comparable to Bernie?

That is, if one really cares about the Gaza human rights situation, if that is REALLY what is driving you, there is more hope, relatively speaking, for a better policy from the "formally unknown" Harris on this issue than in the other party. I realize that that is a judgment call. 

But I believe you have made factually untrue statements in the structure of your argument, and I wonder how your argument would run if you corrected your argument on those points. 

I intend to vote for Harris, and I care about Gaza, and I hope the Israeli people would remove the Natanyahu regime and choose a different direction on the Palestinian issue--even while there are few objective grounds for confidence that Harris will pursue a fundamentally different policy on the arms sales than Biden. It is like in a Hobson's two-party choice going for the party with 15% chance of a difference for the better versus the other with about 2% chance of a difference for the better--if one really cares about that issue as a key issue in deciding on the vote.

Gorbachev, the great reformer in the Soviet Union, rose through the ranks to power and then made breathtaking attempts at reform--replacing totalitarianism with Scandinavian style social democracy; reintegrating Russia into a common Europe; ending the empire and letting the small occupied republics go free which wanted to be free; working with a US presidential partner, Reagan, in ending nuclear arms on earth, not rhetorically but in a concrete four-stage doable plan to do so (Reykjavik 1986). 

I hope Kamala Harris may similarly become a reformer for good once in power, and be an improvement on US influence on what is going on in Gaza through the leverage of arms sales to allies conditionality on compliance with human rights.

[Kevin Balch]

Both candidates are in the tank for Israel. That’s almost a litmus test for me because a politician who will confront the Israel Lobby is likely to try to keep their other promises if they survive in office. On the other hand, a politician that supports Israel will ALWAYS choose Israel over his voters if their interests conflict.

Look at Trump. He pardoned Sholom Rubashkin who imported illegal aliens to staff his Iowa slaughterhouse operation. That was really in his voter’s interest.

I remember back in 2016 when Trump told the Republican Jewish Coalition that he “didn’t need their money” and that we needed an “even-handed policy in the middle east”. Then, he went on stage before AIPAC to grovel before them even before he got the nomination. Hillary Clinton did the same the very next evening. The fix was in.

[W. Niederhut]

55 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I like RFK2's stance on Israel.  

I stand by my sentiments regarding Putin, Tehran and Kaka Sinwar. Variations of Little Hitlers.

I stand corrected on one point. It is elements within the right wing and GOP that seem to want to roll over for Putin. 

I am concerned by racists in the right-wing, and anti-Semitic crackpots in the left-wing, weighing too heavily even on international policies of the major parties.

I do not denigrate others for having different points of view. 

My views are not your views. 

Ben,

Did you read Edward Curtin's "Epistle to RFK, Jr." about Gaza?

I posted it on the Political Discussion board when it was published.

Curtin was a long-time supporter of RFK, Jr., as described in his epistle.

An Epistle to Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., by Edward Curtin - The Unz Review

As for "crackpots," did you read Bernie Sanders' profound response to Netanyahu's crackpot claim that people protesting against his IDF military ops in Gaza are "anti-Semites?"

It can't be said any more clearly and accurately than Sanders said it.

You really need to study Sanders' commentary on the subject.

NEWS: Sanders Responds to Netanyahu’s Claim that Criticism of the Israeli Government’s Policies is Antisemitic » Senator Bernie Sanders (senate.gov)

Lastly, disagreeing with someone's arguments isn't "denigration."

It's called "rebuttal."

There are "views," and there are facts.

My disagreements with your "views" are based on facts.

 

[Kevin Balch]

37 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

I hope Kamala Harris may similarly become a reformer for good once in power, and be an improvement on US influence on what is going on in Gaza through the leverage of arms sales to allies conditionality on compliance with human rights.

So instead of $20 billion dollars in arms,

Israel will get $10 billion if they pursue a kinder, gentler ethnic cleansing?

[Kevin Balch]

44 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Whereas there is nothing comparable on the Republican side (that I can see). Where is a Bernie-like voice on the Republican side, once genuine anti-semites are taken out of consideration? Where is the non-anti-semitic opposition to "one more dime" of arms sales, and call for an immediate cease-fire, on the Republican side, comparable to Bernie?

Thomas Massie, the congressman from Kentucky.

[Benjamin Cole]

15 minutes ago, Kevin Balch said:

Thomas Massie, the congressman from Kentucky.

I agree there are anti-Semitic crackpots populating the major political parties, and modern political discourse.

 

 

Edited August 28 by Benjamin Cole