Meanwhile, on Nov. 22 1963 in Paris....At about 12:30 pm Dallas Time

[Benjamin Cole]

Maybe some JFKA junkies have read this before...

From this CIA document: https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10213-10101.pdf (page 13 of tif file). 

"A CIA officer passed an assassination weapon to an Agency Cuban asset at a meeting in Paris on November 22 1963. The weapon was a ballpoint pen rigged as a hypodermic syringe. The CIA officer suggested that the Cuban asset load the syringe with Black Leaf 40. The evidence indicates the meeting was underway at the very moment President Kennedy was shot."

---30---

Egads. 

The once-secret report also states, "We cannot overemphasize the extent to which responsible Agency officers felt themselves subject to the Kennedy Administration's severe pressures to do something about Castro and his regime." (page 11 of tif file).

---30---

Of course, many Castro assassination plots were hatched during the Kennedy Administration, including some after the CMC. There seems to be debate about how much of these plots were known to JFK/RFK.

RFK was evidently became close friends with CIA Director John McCone, who was appointed by JFK in 1961 to replace Dulles. So the Kennedys should have known what was going on. 

JFK himself in late 1962 vowed that the BoP brigade's flag would fly over a free Havana. That is, JFK vowed a regime-change op. 

I understand the Paris episode is only coincidental. But somehow Cuba always comes up in the JFKA. 

 

 

[Kevin Balch]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Maybe some JFKA junkies have read this before...

From this CIA document: https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10213-10101.pdf (page 13 of tif file). 

"A CIA officer passed an assassination weapon to an Agency Cuban asset at a meeting in Paris on November 22 1963. The weapon was a ballpoint pen rigged as a hypodermic syringe. The CIA officer suggested that the Cuban asset load the syringe with Black Leaf 40. The evidence indicates the meeting was underway at the very moment President Kennedy was shot."

---30---

Egads. 

The once-secret report also states, "We cannot overemphasize the extent to which responsible Agency officers felt themselves subject to the Kennedy Administration's severe pressures to do something about Castro and his regime." (page 11 of tif file).

---30---

Of course, many Castro assassination plots were hatched during the Kennedy Administration, including some after the CMC. There seems to be debate about how much of these plots were known to JFK/RFK.

RFK was evidently became close friends with CIA Director John McCone, who was appointed by JFK in 1961 to replace Dulles. So the Kennedys should have known what was going on. 

JFK himself in late 1962 vowed that the BoP brigade's flag would fly over a free Havana. That is, JFK vowed a regime-change op. 

I understand the Paris episode is only coincidental. But somehow Cuba always comes up in the JFKA. 

 

 

Many JFKA researchers believe Castro was simply an agrarian reformer.

For the record, I think the Cold War was largely mutual paranoia. Each ideology saw itself as superior to the other. But if Marxism was an inevitable outcome of history, why the need to impose it through force? It’s like the christian zionists trying to accelerate the rapture by egging on middle east wars. If Marxism can’t work, what were the Capitalists so afraid of? I’ve been watching the Kennedy-Nixon debates and it is astounding to see how each pointed to the supposed economic achievements of the Soviets which we now know were illusory.

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Kevin Balch said:

Many JFKA researchers believe Castro was simply an agrarian reformer.

For the record, I think the Cold War was largely mutual paranoia. Each ideology saw itself as superior to the other. But if Marxism was an inevitable outcome of history, why the need to impose it through force? It’s like the christian zionists trying to accelerate the rapture by egging on middle east wars. If Marxism can’t work, what were the Capitalists so afraid of? I’ve been watching the Kennedy-Nixon debates and it is astounding to see how each pointed to the supposed economic achievements of the Soviets which we now know were illusory.

Most JFKA researchers have few illusions about Castro.

It is true, that elements within America's left-wing have long valorized Castro and Che Guevara (see Guevara's image in tee-shirts even yet), and it used to be mostly left-wingers interested in the JFKA/RFK1A. 

As left-wingers, perhaps JFK researchers have somewhat sanitized the JFK record regarding Cuba and Castro. There is the uncomfortable feeling that JFK was talking nice to Castro while planning to execute him also. 

I recently learned that RFK and John McCone became relatively close friends after JFK appointed McCone the CIA director in 1961. There is little excuse for JFK not knowing what the CIA was up to.

But fast forward to today's JFKA/RFK1A research community, and there is a lot more intellectual diversity among the researchers, and, of course, a lot more historical record to ponder. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29 by Benjamin Cole

[Pete Mellor]

16 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I recently learned that RFK and John McCone became relatively close friends after JFK appointed McCone the CIA director in 1961. There is little excuse for JFK not knowing what the CIA was up to.

However, with Dulles still holding court at his D.C. home, or down on the farm, with the old fraternity of James Angleton and Richard Helms. These puppet masters of people like Harvey and Phillips etc., running their agendas on Cuba, Indonesia and Ben Gurion's Dimona project etc. How do you know McCone was kept in the loop on any of these Dulles/Angleton secret ops?

Edited August 29 by Pete Mellor

[Roger Odisio]

1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

However, with Dulles still holding court at his D.C. home, or down on the farm, with the old fraternity of James Angleton and Richard Helms. These puppet masters of people like Harvey and Phillips etc., running their agendas on Cuba, Indonesia and Ben Gurion's Dimona project etc. How do you know McCone was kept in the loop on any of these Dulles/Angleton secret ops?

Right, Pete.  It's pretty clear that McCone didn't know what the cold warriors at the agency were doing.  The Dulles gang kept him out of the loop.  When Bobby had McCone come to Hickory Hill on the afternoon of the murder and they talked for 2 hours, probably the main thing RFK learned was how little help McCone was going to be in unmasking the culprits.

However, at some point McCone did tell Kennedy he thought there was more than one shooter.  That was because he had been briefed by Art Lundahl from the NPIC using Brugioni's boards from the Z film early Sunday morning.  McCone then briefed LBJ.  At that point they both knew the Oswald story was false.

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

Right, Pete.  It's pretty clear that McCone didn't know what the cold warriors at the agency were doing.  The Dulles gang kept him out of the loop.  When Bobby had McCone come to Hickory Hill on the afternoon of the murder and they talked for 2 hours, probably the main thing RFK learned was how little help McCone was going to be in unmasking the culprits.

However, at some point McCone did tell Kennedy he thought there was more than one shooter.  That was because he had been briefed by Art Lundahl from the NPIC using Brugioni's boards from the Z film early Sunday morning.  McCone then briefed LBJ.  At that point they both knew the Oswald story was false.

RO/PM:

I am not comfortable with the proposition that McCone was out of the loop on what the CIA was doing, and ergo RFK/JFK were also. 

McCone was brought into the CIA by JFK in 1961, and his first job should have been to find out everything that was going on. He should have emphasized that there had to be 100% transparency to him in CIA ops. And JFK should have dictated that Job No. 1 to McCone. 

"We cannot be chief executives if there are secret ops we do not know about," JFK should have said. "Fire anyone who disagrees." 

It would be a dereliction of duty to do anything less. 

So...a story has grown up that Dulles was still running the CIA. Was he? I don't know, but I don't think so. 

The problem is compounded by the fact that records were not kept on CIA assassination jobs, by the CIA's own statements. I assume other ops were conducted off-the-books.  But we don't know what we don't know. 

McCone was a smart guy, and quite the anti-communist, an activist, one reason he was close friends with RFK. It may be McCone was aware of everything the CIA was doing, and (unofficially) approved of it. His job would have been to keep RFK/JFK apprised of everything the CIA was doing. My reasoned guess is RFK was pretty much on top of CIA ops. 

I cannot tell you who perped the JFKA...so all this is just IMHO. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

The American historical consciousness since 1963 thru today ( for the 25% of those who contemplate such thoughts ) has deflected a very important and rational reality question regards the JFKA truth imo.

How far do they think extreme power position JFK haters during his presidency would have gone to deal with the threat JFK presented to their contrary interests, agendas and ideologies? Their wealth and power?

This level of hate toward JFK was so wealthy, powerful, broad and deep ( segregationists, Texas oil, organized crime, military generals and admirals, secret agency hierarchy, para-military covert agents, hot headed Cubans who felt JFK betrayed them, LBJ, Hoover and on and on and on ) one need not doubt that a violent take out of JFK had to have been brought up by any or all of these groups at some point.

Especially since the JFK/RFK adversaries knew JFK was going to win re-election in 1964.

Were any or all of these super powerful JFK hate groups capable of ordering the unspeakable?

Of course they were...imo anyways.

Once you accept the reality that JFK's most powerful domestic adversaries were capable of and more than willing and inclined to planning something as diabolical as an assassination to protect their interests that JFK was threatening...then you've at least allowed yourself to bust through the false perception wall that this scenario of JFK hate to a murderous degree simply could not be a rationally viable truth. After 60 years, it's time to face the reality that it very possibly could have been with many saying it was probably was.

Was our nation ( in the highest realms of wealth, influence and power ) that corrupted then and beyond?  Time to finally face the reality that it was and has been...imo anyways.

 

 

Edited August 31 by Joe Bauer

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

The American historical consciousness since 1963 thru today ( for the 25% of those who contemplate such thoughts ) has deflected a very important and rational reality question regards the JFKA truth imo.

How far do they think extreme power position JFK haters during his presidency would have gone to deal with the threat JFK presented to their contrary interests, agendas and ideologies? Their wealth and power?

This level of hate toward JFK was so wealthy, powerful, broad and deep ( segregationists, Texas oil, organized crime, military generals and admirals, secret agency hierarchy, para-military covert agents, hot headed Cubans who felt JFK betrayed them, LBJ, Hoover and on and on and on ) one need not doubt that a violent take out of JFK had to have been brought up by any or all of these groups at some point.

Especially since the JFK/RFK adversaries knew JFK was going to win re-election in 1964.

Were any or all of these super powerful JFK hate groups capable of ordering the unspeakable?

Of course they were...imo anyways.

Once you accept the reality that JFK's most powerful domestic adversaries were capable of and more than willing and inclined to planning something as diabolical as an assassination to protect their interests that JFK was threatening...then you've at least allowed yourself to bust through the false perception wall that this scenario of JFK hate to a murderous degree simply could not be a rationally viable truth. After 60 years, it's time to face this reality.

All these JFK hating groups ( with more power, wealth, influence and control than JFK was surrounded with ) celebrated his murder and gained greatly by it's occurrence.

They won...over JFK and RFK.

 

 

JB-

Of course, you speak the truth. Many groups did want JFK removed from office, all the ones you mentioned, and the globalists of the day.

But, the same could be said today, that the Deep State and globalists, powerful media allies, and many left-wing political groups loathed, detested and reviled the man whose name begins with a T. Moreover at the time of the T assassination attempt, it looked like Mr. T was headed towards election victory again.

Does it follow the T assassination attempt ...was perped by conspirators, and not a lone nut? 

I happen to strongly suspect the JFKA resulted from a conspiracy (largely due to the timing of shots seen in the Z-film), and suspect likely the TAT was a lone-nut job.  

Just IMHO. 

 

[Roger Odisio]

13 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

RO/PM:

I am not comfortable with the proposition that McCone was out of the loop on what the CIA was doing, and ergo RFK/JFK were also. 

McCone was brought into the CIA by JFK in 1961, and his first job should have been to find out everything that was going on. He should have emphasized that there had to be 100% transparency to him in CIA ops. And JFK should have dictated that Job No. 1 to McCone. 

"We cannot be chief executives if there are secret ops we do not know about," JFK should have said. "Fire anyone who disagrees." 

It would be a dereliction of duty to do anything less. 

So...a story has grown up that Dulles was still running the CIA. Was he? I don't know, but I don't think so. 

The problem is compounded by the fact that records were not kept on CIA assassination jobs, by the CIA's own statements. I assume other ops were conducted off-the-books.  But we don't know what we don't know. 

McCone was a smart guy, and quite the anti-communist, an activist, one reason he was close friends with RFK. It may be McCone was aware of everything the CIA was doing, and (unofficially) approved of it. His job would have been to keep RFK/JFK apprised of everything the CIA was doing. My reasoned guess is RFK was pretty much on top of CIA ops. 

I cannot tell you who perped the JFKA...so all this is just IMHO. 

 

 

 

 

 

The idea that McCone was out of the cold war loop has little or nothing to do with McCone himself or who he was.  Top to bottom, information flowed through the agency on a need to know basis. If McCone had given the speech you imagine, other key personnel would have laughed at him (probably behind his back).  There were things the agency did or wanted to do that in their view McCone or the Kennedys didn't have a need to know.  

Dulles was the clear leader of the agency, known around the place as the old man, when after 10 years as director Kennedy fired him.  Talbott has documented how Dulles simply set up shop out of his home in Georgetown and continued to run key policy with his confederates.

If getting rid of Kennedy was one of those policies, it's obvious McCone would have known nothing about it.

 

[Gil Jesus]

 

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

 

Thanks for posting. 

[David Josephs]

On 8/29/2024 at 9:11 PM, Joe Bauer said:

This level of hate toward JFK was so wealthy, powerful, broad and deep ( segregationists, Texas oil, organized crime, military generals and admirals, secret agency hierarchy, para-military covert agents, hot headed Cubans who felt JFK betrayed them, LBJ, Hoover and on and on and on ) one need not doubt that a violent take out of JFK had to have been brought up by any or all of these groups at some point.

One of the key similarities among all those you name here Joe:  Hatred of Communism

How does one get consensus among such a diverse group of groups? 

"JFK doesn't want to fight Communism, he wants us to live along side it".

As I see it, Not a single member of the groups on that list could abide by that happening. 
Yes it would also solve the different group's individual concerns... but those concerns pale by comparison to the perceived and real threat of Global communism.

If you haven't read the reports of GEORGE KENNAN  https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/coldwar/documents/episode-1/kennan.htm  
If you'd like to understand why the US turned its back on Russia during WWII and beyond... one should be acquainted with his work.

Another important book to understand why we get to where we got is "The Wise Men" 
https://archive.org/details/wisemensixfriend00isaa_0
https://www.amazon.com/Wise-Men-Friends-World-They/dp/1476728828

 

[Kevin Balch]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

As I see it, Not a single member of the groups on that list could abide by that happening. 
Yes it would also solve the different group's individual concerns... but those concerns pale by comparison to the perceived and real threat of Global communism.

Many of the fears of these groups came to pass despite the success of the assassination. Arguably, because of the assassination.

The Civil Rights Acts, the Immigration Act of 1965, the Great Society, Soviet superiority in nuclear arms, no invasion of Cuba. They got the Vietnam war but it was conducted in a half-assed manner. Mostly by Kennedy holdovers (Bundy, McNamara, Rostow). Presumably, the conspirators were also antisemitic yet the long-standing policy of no sales of offensive weapons to Israel was overturned.