Jump to content
The Education Forum

Recommended Posts

Pat, apparently RFK was very close to Dulles.

I previously posted in a different thread that when Nixon in "Six Crises" complained that JFK had been briefed by Dulles on the BOP but nevertheless criticized the Eisenhower Administration for not doing enough to aid the Cuban exiles, Dulles publicly came to Kennedy's defense.

I did not mean to state that RFK was personally involved in the cover-up although we certainly do not know what he may have said to Dulles; and he certainly took no action as AG to encourage a full investigation.

I will post tomorrow the historical reference that supports my statement that RFK asked LBJ to place Dulles on the WC.

Thanks!

Edited by Tim Gratz
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 142
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Great thread

Good mix of facts, theory, narrative and analysis.

McCloy, as head of Military Intelligence in world War II would have a strange idea about the proper balance of powers and the status quo of military versus civilian power. Strategic and defense intelligence classification priorities would open them up to EXECUTIVE SANCTION scenarios and DOMESTIC DENIABLE programs.

When you say that McCloy and Ed Walker and Max Taylor all had access to the Italian Duce Mannleicher Carcano fascist guard rifles, I think this may be the pivotal fact at the heart of the trail to our JFK ASSASSIN ambush and frame up originators......>>>>>>>>>>> :ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:

[quote=Jim Root,May 6 2005, 07:04 AM]

Stan

Perhaps the better question would be, "Who would know that "they" would send anybody to clover it up?"

I did not begin reading the Warren Report as a skeptic but became one the more I read. As I said in an earlier post there were, in my opinion, two seperate crimes: the assassination and the cover up. Because the second happened as a result of the first does not mean that the same people participated in both as most people tend to believe.

If Oswald had been used as an intelligence asset by any department of the US government there would, arguably, be a reason to cover up that relationship in the same way that a group involved in a coup would want the assassination covered up. It is, in my belief, that in the first case you would have a McCloy and a Dulles willing to participate out of a duty to the nation while in the second case I believe they would be the last people that would want to be involved.

This is what is so intriguing about their participation. Dulles and McCloy were Cold Warriors, as such there participation is perdictable.

Perhaps a slanted historical perspective can be given that could help to explain my position. After the bombing of Coventry during World War II Winston Churchill had his picture taken in the ruins of the famous cathederal. Years later, after the death of Churchill, we learn that there is a good possibility that the British had information (because they were reading the German Codes) that could have been used to evacuate the city and save thousands of civilian lives. Problem was, if they did evacuate the city the Germans might have realized their codes were compromised. I believe that by having his picture taken at that moment in time, Churchill was allowing history to know that it was his decision to keep the information from the public for the greater good of the war effort and history would pass a positive judgement upon him.

Knowledge of the codes or no knowledge of the codes the bombing was going to occur and the war was going to continue. Loss of the "Ultra Secrete" could have ment loss of the war. The Warren Commission could not change the fact that Kennedy had been assassinated. Perhaps they, or at least two, believed they could still use the event to protect a front in the Cold War.

Was this action predictable? Perhaps by the "big fish."

Jim Root

Link to post
Share on other sites

Donald Gibson, Black Op Radio, Part One

Donald Gibson, Black Op Radio, Part Two

Some interesting stuff, if you have the time.

Gibson says McCloy and Dulles worked for the Rockefellers and Morgans. He says the the Bundy brother, Dean Acheson, the Lodges, McCloy, Dulles, the Rostow brothers were very high up in the "establishment". He also implies LBJ was a corrupt politican, but not a part of this power group that was running the country at the time. He thinks Johnson was used, with or without his knowledge.

Edited by Stan Wilbourne
Link to post
Share on other sites

Stan, while I haven't had the time to check out the links, I actually believe that, in the context of the JFK assassination, LBJ was used...or, more correctly, played like a grand piano. Johnson was predictable, if nothing else...and I believe that his predictability is what made him the perfect presidential puppet for those who pulled the strings. I no longer believe that the Don Reynolds testimony before Congress happening on the day of the assassination was mere coincidence; rather, I believe it was meant as a warning to LBJ: we can take, you down, too, if we so choose...so you can either march in step with us, or pay the price. In hindsight, could that not also have been the case with Nixon?...both LBJ and NIxon were dirty, but Nixon made the decision to try to cut the strings, while Johnson decided to do as he was told.

Shanet, I believe you're on the right track...McCloy, Walker, Taylor, Mannlichers...the puzzle is coming together a bit more.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Pat, apparently RFK was very close to Dulles.

I previously posted in a different thread that when Nixon in "Six Crises" complained that JFK had been briefed by Dulles on the BOP but nevertheless criticized the Eisenhower Administration for not doing enough to aid the Cuban exiles, Dulles publicly came to Kennedy's defense.

I did not mean to state that RFK was personally involved in the cover-up although we certainly do not know what he may have said to Dulles; and he certainly took no action as AG to encourage a full investigation.

I will post tomorrow the historical reference that supports my statement that RFK asked LBJ to place Dulles on the WC.

Thanks!

Tim, my understanding is that the CIA resented the heck out of Bobby's influence and interference. It seems clear, based on the articles he wrote after the Bay of Pigs, that Dulles was especially resentful to JFK loyalists who sought to blame the CIA for the BOP. RFK and Dulles did work together on the post-BOP report, the Taylor Report, and it's possible they gained some mutual respect at that time. But as far as long-time political associates, Dulles was firmly GOP, Eisenhower, Rockefeller, Bush, Nixon, and NOT Kennedy. I think you could benefit from reading some of the psychological analyses of Nixon; one, in particular, gets into Nixon's discredited fixation that Dulles fully briefed Kennedy about the BOP, and that Kennedy violated national security by talking tough in the debate. This book analyzed Nixon's article and chapter in Six Crises, and compared it against what Kennedy really said and did, and demonstrated quite clearly that Nixon was totally paranoid, and that his bending over backwards to pretend we had no plans against Castro fooled no one, and only demonstrated Nixon's self-pitying martyr complex. As with LBJ, you have to take everything Nixon said with a grain of salt.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Tim, Pat, Mark, Shanet

Could Max Taylor have been the person supplying the information that everybody was so sure JFK was getting from others?

Pat, you sight the "Taylor Report" and Bobby did name a son after Maxwell Taylor.

Taylor wanted the military to handle operations and the CIA to deal with just intelligence gathering. There was an internal control conflict and Taylor was involved (perhaps even before the election.......U-2 incident was very embarrasing to the CIA).

Jim Root

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 year later...

Lee

Thank you for bring this thread back to life. A lot has occured iin the past year and a half of my research and I now do believe that the assassination and the Commission Report were not two seperate incidents but rather a part of the whole tragedy. My focus for the "big fish" remains, now more than ever, John J. McCloy.

It is my belief that McCloy was, during WWII the man at the top of the intelligence stucture in the US War effort. This can be confirmed historically. McCloy was responsible for the distribution and protection of America code breaking successes as well as being at the top of the heap when dealing with the development of the Atomic Bomb.

These two historical facts associate him with John B. Hurt and the desire to put into place a nuclear non proliferation treaty that could be used to protect the world from self destruction. Kennedy's change of policy toward a Limited Test Ban Treaty begins a series of communication between McCloy and Walker as well as Taylor's comments at the commencement ceremonies at West Point. All three of these events occur in June of 1963 and all seem to point toward a topic that suggests that a President is nothing more than a temporary holder of power but that the real power lies in the protection of the nation and the Constitution.

It is at this point that I believe the conspirators believed that they had the authority to eliminate a President that they believed was not acting in the best interests of the country.

A previous post that I did quotes Taylor's speech. I encourage you to look at it with an eye toward these thoughts.

Jim Root

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim-- Have been intrigued by your insight on McCloy. I have also found him interesting, but have been

largely confined to Kai Birds account, which seems curiously skimpy in so far as the Warren Commission.

Not that there's not a lot of other interesting stuff to write about but jeez!

Do I recall correctly that you have become convinced the McCloy's influence on the WC far surpasses his

spotty attendance record? If so, do you think this record was crafted to be deliberately misleading? Do you think that McCloy may have had some role in the selection of witnesses, and in deciding who migh be interviewed but not mentioned in the final report; a role, in short, similar to Phillip Zelikow on Lee Hamilton's

Trifecta... I mean the 9/11 Commission.

What do you think of Kai Bird as a source on McCloy? Recommend any other good sources on McCloy?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nathanial

McCloy is intriguing!

One of the earliest Warren Commission meetings that McCloy missed was missed so that McCloy could attend a the Nuclear Disamament meeting in Geneva. It was at that meeting that Yuri Nosenko defected to the United States. Was this defection a coincidence?

I think not. Both the Soviet Union and the United States had a reason, after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, to distance themselves from any association with Lee Harvey Oswald. I also believe that James Jesus Angelton suspected that Nosenko was a false defector because Angelton was positioned to know that Oswald had been used as a "patsy" when he was sent to the Soviet Union.

I will bring back an older post on Nosenko that I did.

Kai Bird's book on McCloy spends very little time dealing with the importance of the Magic intercepts during WWII. I believe it is possible that McCloy, by the time of Bird's interviews and books, was not about to emphasize this aspect of his life because it may have led to a connection to John B. Hurt. In the life of Stuart Menzies (person in charge of British Intelligence during WWII and McCloy's counterpart) the importance of protecting signals intelligence was paramount and plays a major role in any story about Menzies. Why was this aspect of McCloy's life deemphisized?

I will bring back an older post on this aspect of McCloy's life.

Jim Root

Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting thoughts, Jim.

If your ideas are accurate, it would make Lt. Colonel George Whitmeyer an accessory to the assassination. His unscheduled presence in the pilot car (a last minute addition, according to Vince Palamara) is very suspicious:

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/VP/03-VP.html[/url]

He would have been the ranking military representative in the motorcade, I think.

Also, it should be remembered that it was LBJ who arranged for JFK to visit Dallas, and pressed on JFK the urgency and importance of the visit. I can't see him being an innocent beneficiary of circumstance, he had to be on the inside, IMO.

Just thinking out loud.

Edited by Mark Stapleton
Link to post
Share on other sites

From The Mae Brussel Reference Site:

http://www.prouty.org/brussell/

John J. McCloy and the Chase Manhattan

President Lyndon Johnson asked John J. McCloy to serve on the Warren Commission. No less than nine presidents had called on the Wall Street lawyer for special assignments, yet he was little known to the public. McCloy said he entered the investigation "thinking there was a conspiracy," but left it convinced that Oswald acted alone. "I never saw a case that was more completely proven," he asserted.

McCloy had long been involved in the murky world of espionage, intrigue and nazis. He spent the decade of the 1930s working out of Paris. Much of his time was spent on a law case stemming from German sabotage in World War I. His investigation took him to Berlin, where he shared a box with Hitler at the 1936 Olympics. He was in contact with Rudolph Hess before the Nazi leader made a mysterious flight to England in 1941.

When the nazis occupied Europe, the banking exchanges between Britain and the U.S. on the one hand and Germany on the other carried on as usual. In Trading With the Enemy, Charles Higham documents the role of Standard Oil of New Jersey, owned by the Chase Manhattan Bank, and I.G. Farben's Sterling Products with the Bank for International Settlements. Standard Oil tankers plied the sea lanes with fuel for the nazi war machine. Prior to the war McCloy was legal counsel to Farben, the German chemical monopoly.

As an assistant secretary in the War Department during the war: (1) McCloy blocked the executions of nazi war criminals; (2) forged a pact with the Vichy Regime of pro-nazi Admiral Darlan; (3) displaced Japanese-Americans in California to internment camps; (4) refused to recommend the bombing of nazi concentration camps to spare the inmates on grounds "the cost would be out of proportion to any possible benefits;" and (5) refused Jewish refugees entry to the U.S.

When the curtain fell on the war, McCloy helped shield Klaus Barbie, the "butcher of Lyons," from the French. Barbie and other vicious dogs from Hitler's kennel were hidden out with the 370th Counter Intelligence Corps at Obergamergau. One of their keepers was Private Henry Kissinger, soon to enter Harvard as a McCloy protege.

In 1949 McCloy returned to Germany as American High Commissioner. He commuted the death sentences of a number of nazi war criminals, and gave early releases to others. One was Alfred Krupp, convicted of using slave labor in his armaments factories. Another was Hitler's financial genius, Dr. Hjalmar Schacht, who subsequently went on the payroll of Aristotle Onassis.

In 1952 McCloy left a Germany that was prepared to re-arm to return to his law practice. He became president of the Chase Manhattan Bank, director of a dozen blue chip corporations, and legal counsel to the "Seven Sisters" of American oil. During this period he acquired a client, the Nobel oil firm, whose interests in Czarist Russia had been managed by the father of George de Mohrenschildt, Lee and Marina Oswald's "best friend" in Dallas.

Busy as he was McCloy found time to supervise construction of the new Pentagon building. It was nicknamed “McCloy's Folly.”

Link to post
Share on other sites

In 1949 McCloy returned to Germany as American High Commissioner. He commuted the death sentences of a number of nazi war criminals..............

MCLOY JOHN J

Now this is the kind of thread I like.

Lt Colonel Whitmeyer, Taylor and McCloy are the moderates in this insane

Cold War period, LEMNITZER, ROBERT ANDERSON, and ED WALKER are the

militant rightists and all together they can use the murky COLD WAR

COUNTER INTELLIGENCE SYSTEM to do their dirty work. Helms Hoover and

Johnson just had to clean up and not ask too many questions.

This military core explains why JM WAVE CIA STATION MIAMI 1963

sent Bill Plumlee, Colonel Buck and others as a small squad of

assassination "abort" tasked covert operations --- to distance themselves

in this long historical game of finding blame and publicizing just claims....

CIA and Dave Morales, his team, were tactically brought in with many others

with organized crime, corporate, cuban and paramilitary experience,

but the impetus, believe me, was the military classified findings of the

chiefs of staff, taylor and lemnitzer, who immediately engaged McCloy.

(on the other side of the equation, anything that connected OSWALD or any

of the other suspicious individuals around the story (DEMORENSCHILDT,

MARINA, DAVID FERRIE)

to the U2 / Nosenko counterintelligence activities was, like JIM ROOT points out

total incriminating political and historical dynamite,

like the Oswald jailhouse phone call to John Hurt

a player on the NSA ASIA team circa 1940-1960

:ph34r::blink::D:blink::ph34r:

Edited by Shanet Clark
Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...