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Robin,

Here's the point I tried to make a few times before in various places. Take RB Cutler's version of the various trajectories and shorten them.

Shot #4 to the rear of Kennedy's head, which he has coming from the West Window of the TSBD, passes directly over the location of the alleged Croft shooter.

Shot #5 to the front of Kennedy's head, which he has coming from the parking area behind the picket fence, passes directly over the location of the men crouched on the stairs in Moorman, and enhanced frames of Muchmore and Nix.

It's an interesting coincidence.

- lee

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Robin,

Here's the point I tried to make a few times before in various places.  Take RB Cutler's version of the various trajectories and shorten them. 

Shot #4 to the rear of Kennedy's head, which he has coming from the West Window of the TSBD, passes directly over the location of the alleged Croft shooter.

Shot #5 to the front of Kennedy's head, which he has coming from the parking area behind the picket fence, passes directly over the location of the men crouched on the stairs in Moorman, and enhanced frames of Muchmore and Nix.

It's an interesting coincidence.

- lee

Thanks Lee.

That gives me a much better idea of the area seen in the croft image, and the shooter location.

Your trajectories seem to line up nicely with that Cutler diagram, as you say with a shorter distance between shooters and the Limo.

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Hey Robin.

Here's the odd part - I have some 20+ different versions of the Moorman - mostly internet. What it looks like is that they initially left the spotter in. That's a guess, but depending upon what Moorman you look at - you can generally see one man on the stairs - whom is later brushed out. However - if you work on it, you're left wondering if there is indeed a man to his right, our left - which I was trying hard to work on in that 'negative' scan.

Tough stuff to work with.

- lee

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  • 1 month later...

I think that a correct description of Kennedy's head movements over zframes is "a gradual turning and tilting towards Jackie from sometime shortly after the sign. By zf312, JFK's shoulder is above his ear, possibly higher, this turning and tilting continues for about 2/3 of the time between zf312 and zf313. By this time the top of his head is facing roughly the south knoll. Then a bullet, possibly two, strikes his head on the top of his head above the hairline to the right of the midline. This massive initial force propels his head to the right where it encounters the structure of the shoulder bones and is deflected downward from where it rebounds to the main position captured in the 1/35-1/40 seconds of a series of impressions on zf313.

As his body is kept rigid by a web of back bracing this force also transmits to the seat springs. Further, he is restrained by Jackies hand. As the seat springs rebound the Limousine also accelerates AND diverges from its path swinging to the right. The combination of these forces result in 'back and to the left'.

Kennedy was shot from the left. The 'blowback' of grey matter and debris is a typical result of the pulse effect of a bullet going from one medium into a denser one. see http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/ww...tcs/default.htm for extensive information on wound ballistics.

This composite image illustrates the head positions as I interpret it, also the 'blowback' is emphasised. On the right of the image, the position of the bar between the Connely's and Greer are shown to indicate that frame 313 314 the speed was minimum.

EDIT::images moved down tom later post

Edited by John Dolva
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I think that a correct description of Kennedy's head movements over zframes is "a gradual turning and tilting towards Jackie from sometime shortly after the sign. By zf312, JFK's shoulder is above his ear, possibly higher, this turning and tilting continues for about 2/3 of the time between zf312 and zf313. By this time the top of his head is facing roughly the south knoll. Then a bullet, possibly two, strikes his head on the top of his head above the hairline to the right of the midline. This massive initial force propels his head to the right where it encounters the structure of the shoulder bones and is deflected downward from where it rebounds to the main position captured in the 1/35-1/40 seconds of a series of impressions on zf313.

As his body is kept rigid by a web of back bracing this force also transmits to the seat springs. Further, he is restrained by Jackies hand. As the seat springs rebound the Limousine also accelerates AND diverges from its path swinging to the right. The combination of these forces result in 'back and to the left'.

Kennedy was shot from the left. The 'blowback' of grey matter and debris is a typical result of the pulse effect of a bullet going from one  medium into a denser one. see http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/ww...tcs/default.htm for extensive information on wound ballistics.

This composite image illustrates the head positions as I interpret it, also the 'blowback' is emphasised. On the right of the image, the position of the bar between the Connely's and Greer are shown to indicate that frame 313 314 the speed was minimum.

Hi John!

Meaning that you believe the shot emanated from the 'south knoll' which is in reality, the top of the underpass [if the 'North knoll' is the area of the North Pergola, then the south knoll would be the area containing the south pergola - just an observation]? To the left, meaning the south side of the underpass?

The trouble is, the z-film has been played with. I think everyone would agree that some kind of monkey business went on, even if they don't want to accept the idea of serious alteration. Zapruder even seemed extremely confused when provided examples of frames from his own film.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/history/wc_pe.../AZapruder.html

Mr. Zapruder.

Well, they claimed they told me it was about 2 frames fast--instead of 16 it was 18 frames and they told me it was about 2 frames fast in the speed and they told me that the time between the 2 rapid shots, as I understand, that was determined--the length of time it took to the second one and that they were very fast and they claim it has proven it could be done by 1 man. You know there was indication there were two?

What the hell is he talking about.

Life magazine reversed frames z313 and ?z314? for an unknown reason. The ABSmith version seems remarkably different from the other versions. There even appears to be a 'template' so that Kennedy's head appears to split into 2 pieces, while the Wizard of Oz melting routine commences. There is also a slight dip of the head forward from 312 to 313 which could suggest the physics of the head absorbing the impact of a round fired to the front - or, we could be missing a few frames [especially if Z did film set to 25/24fps], and be left only with a small forward motion. And yes, I know that you can shoot at melons - anyone with a gun and a melon can do that.

MIDP, page 316:

"He [ben Hunter of NPIC] said that he could recall no discussion of the film speed of the camera which took the assassination movie (whereas in the notes, both a 16fps, and an 18fps, timing scenario for shots is laboriously computed in longhand).
???

Morningstar:

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/phikent/zthesis.html

Analysts used a variety of methods including time/motion studies, vector analysis, image blur analysis, atmospheric studies and gestalt psychology to dissect the film on a frame-by-frame basis. The consensus was that the film was radically altered to delete evidence that JFK was struck in quick succession by several shots to the head described by Secret Serviceman Roy Kellerman as a "flurry of shells".

The panel of experts was moderated by Professor James Fetzer of the University of Minnesota and David Lifton, author of "Best Evidence". Dr. David Mantik, concluded that key frames had been removed from the Zapruder film. This writer, a JFK researcher and panel member, proposed that these had been deleted to disguise the damage caused by several shots as damage caused by only one.

The witnesses said shots came from the area of the North Knoll. There is no witness testimony that says a shot ever came from the South area at the top of the underpass, or the South Knoll. If you throw out Gordon Arnold as a witness, then Tosh Plumlee has to go as well, IMO. Arnold heard 2 shots fired from behind the picketfence area. Plumlee, who says he was in the area of the South part of the underpass, says a shot whizzed over his head. There were 2 cops positioned up there, along with as many as 9? Railroad workers [and maybe even Mrs. Beck of Lincoln Park]. Officer Foster was stationed up there. I was told be someone I met in Dealey Plaza [brown] that Foster's character could be vouched for, and that he would have reacted to a shot having been fired from that general area.

Patrolman Foster heard a noise that sounded like a large firecracker. He stated his attention was directed to President Kennedy and he realized something was wrong because of the movement of the President. Another report was heard by Patrolman Foster and at about the same time the report was heard, he observed the President’s head appear to explode and immediately thereafter, he heard a third report which he knew as a shot. Patrolman Foster stated that because of the distanced from the place where the shot appeared to come from, he felt the third shot struck President Kennedy as he heard the sound of the second shot that was fired. He stated the shots sounded as if they came from the direction of the Texas School Book Depository building.

The medical records and botched autopsy reports, the witnesses to the large hole in the rear of the head, the bone fragments found forward of the lincoln, and to the rear, Bobby Hargis, Bill Newman, the man that looks like a Railroad Detective at the GKS position to the right of the tree behind the fence in the Moorman, the man with the army helmet in the 'Pergola Garden' area of the walled walkway, Wade's comment about the temple, the 'LHO' characters comment on the bus about the temple, the flap of skin and theories about a .45 shot entry to the side of the head, those who have seen the 'other' film - I just don't see it. No witness testimony about a shot being heard from this area - even if you consider sonic suppressors and Mitch WerBell's of having been involved in supplying silencers, there would still be some type of sound. The shot to the curb in the position of Mary Moorman and Jean Hill [as per Hill's testimony] which is NOT to be confused with the Tague curb, or the possible .45 round collected by the mystery man, some 150' or so further Southwest towards the underpass. The skull fragments that landed by Altgens feet. The other skull fragments found in the street close to the curb [Weitzman].

Here's what I think IMO is a likely scenario:

I think that the man in the army helmet fired a round to the rear of Kennedy's head, resulting in the harper fragment, and other fragments, being thrown forward of the Lincoln to the SouthWest.

This shot was perhaps simultaneously followed by a shot from the front - fired by the 'Railroad Detective. behind the fence on the Grassy Knoll, who was positioned in the parking area, and seen by Bowers and Hoffman. This shot drove brain matter, blood and skull fragments in a SouthEast direction, causing Kennedy to be thrown back.

Anyway - a combination of witness testimony, medical, smoke on the knoll, the location of the bone fragments, the man in Moorman and the man in Croft - suggest to me that these were the shooters and that they took shots which have been registered in the Zapruder film as one and the same shot, probably by removing frames.

See the NPIC interviews in Fetzer's 'MIDP.' Page 319, for example, AARB interview of Homer McMahon, who was manager of the NPIC color lab in 1963, and worked on the z-film.

"McMahon said his opinion, which was that President Kennedy was shot 6 to 8 times from at least 3 different directions, was ultimately ignored, and the opinion of USSS agent Smith, that there were 3 shots from behind the Book Depository, ultimately was employed in selecting frames in the movie for reproduction."

The only question I have is whether or not a shot was also fired to the side of the head, perhaps from the area of the toolsheds behind the Pergola at Shelter Number Four, or one of the TSBD West Windows. There is an indication of a side entry in the X-rays, and a flap of skin which has led to the theory of a side entry, in addition to the other wounds to the head.

If you throw out the z-film z313 as your reference - but account for the motion of Kennedy's body, is it possible that there was more forward motion [as accounted by witnesses and even by witnesses of the unaltered Z-film] from the shot to the occiput, followed up by a shot to the front right temple area by the Railroad Detective, driving Kennedy back in the seat, and then a third shot to the head from the direction of the Pergola, or even the West Window of the 5th or 6th floor of the TSBD, which then drove Kennedy to his left?

Shot One: Rear, Pergola Gardens, strikes Kennedy in the back of his head, in the area of the occiput.

Shot Two: Front, Parking Area, GKS position, Railroad Detective strikes Kennedy in the front right temple area.

Shot Three? Side, Shelter 4 [toolshed] or West Window of TSBD, to side of Kennedy's head.

I believe that this was run once somewhere here on Simkin's forum. There is the flap of skin, and X-Ray, etc., to suggest a side entry.

IMO, what is a perfect example of 'Unfinished' z-film alteration, attached. These are frames from the "AB Smith" Groden version of the z-film - which he refers to as no better than 'visual mud' on his DVD. Kennedy's head can clearly be seen - and appears to be facing his left - which would make sense if the shots originated from the North side of Elm. What looks like a white, plastic milk carton, slowly peels off from the head and falls forward, as Jackie seems to toss a bit of skull or something in the air. Would a melon do that if you shot it? :)

- lee

Edited by Lee Forman
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I think that a correct description of Kennedy's head movements over zframes is "a gradual turning and tilting towards Jackie from sometime shortly after the sign. By zf312, JFK's shoulder is above his ear, possibly higher, this turning and tilting continues for about 2/3 of the time between zf312 and zf313. By this time the top of his head is facing roughly the south knoll. Then a bullet, possibly two, strikes his head on the top of his head above the hairline to the right of the midline. This massive initial force propels his head to the right where it encounters the structure of the shoulder bones and is deflected downward from where it rebounds to the main position captured in the 1/35-1/40 seconds of a series of impressions on zf313.

As his body is kept rigid by a web of back bracing this force also transmits to the seat springs. Further, he is restrained by Jackies hand. As the seat springs rebound the Limousine also accelerates AND diverges from its path swinging to the right. The combination of these forces result in 'back and to the left'.

Kennedy was shot from the left. The 'blowback' of grey matter and debris is a typical result of the pulse effect of a bullet going from one  medium into a denser one. see http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/ww...tcs/default.htm for extensive information on wound ballistics.

This composite image illustrates the head positions as I interpret it, also the 'blowback' is emphasised. On the right of the image, the position of the bar between the Connely's and Greer are shown to indicate that frame 313 314 the speed was minimum.

Hi Lee, I am aware there is a wide spectrum of ideas regarding the Zfilm. I can't say at this stage what the truth is. I think there was a man named Abraham Zapruder who stood on a raised platform and took a film.

With regards to wound ballistics, as is shown at http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/ww...tcs/default.htm (warning: some of the images at this site and links may be disturbing) it is more than melons that show the distinctive pulsed response re material ejecta. It doesn't seem to matter if it's bananas, apples, buckets of water, dry skulls, filled skulls, goat skulls, cat skulls, stomachs, thighs, blocks of gelatine, frozen lemons, limes or melons. All exhibit the characteristic enlargement, fragmentation, pulsing, subsidence that contribute to the dispersal of wound matter.

Edited by John Dolva
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John,

No matter what I may think - you do some very impressive stuff my friend. Always a pleasure looking at your material. I hope that it will always lead you to the same answer - that something was rotten in the State of Texas. :)

I'll check out the link - I'm always open to learning something new.

- lee

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thank's Lee, ditto.

Another thing I take into account is an experiment to see how force is distributed through a sideways blow. I have in occasion broken say a flower pot or bottle, the fractures are remeniscent of the type of fractures apparent on the autopsy xray photographs (yes, I am aware of the existence of controversy here as well). I have only seen photographs of the xrays. I've attempted to post on the xray topic in the index but the topic stays put and no one gets to read it. Anyway here is an image of force distribution of a sideways blow. A shot from the left would in penetrating the skull encounter on the one side a wall of skull bone edge on and brain tissue on the other.

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There were indeed reports of shots from the Left. Watching through binoculars from his fifth floor office in the Terminal Annex building (or Post Office Building) opposite the Texas School Book Depository, was Harry D. Holmes, FBI informant T7.

"....Right after the assassination I called the boss in Fort Worth, who already had the chief on the phone line in Washington because everything was chaos. He told me, “Well, you’re in charge of the investigation over there for whatever they need in the way of postal inspectors’ help or cooperation. The entire manpower that we have over there is at your disposal and we’ll send more if you need them.”

All the federal agencies would band together though they didn’t know what to do. Actually, for a while, they thought the shots came from my building, the Terminal Annex. So immediately we interviewed everybody on the floors on that side of the building to see what they knew or had seen because there was a possibility that it came from the post office. Of course, that was cleared up in a hurry.

I had the radio on all the time but there wasn’t much that I could do. I had called Captain Fritz and told him, “If there is anything I can do, why, I’m available and I’ve got plenty of men available......”

JohnD

Edited by John Dolva
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By all accounts (of which there are few) Harry D. Holmes was an interesting figure. He described himself as a 'trained suspicioner' and spent most of the day of the assassination and the following days in his office or at the police station taking part in the interviews of Oswald. He provided crucial information on Oswalds Post Box and was the reason for the delay in Oswalds transfer that resulted in Ruby being in time to shoot Oswald. He commanded respect and authority within the FBI, DPD and the Warren Commission. I haven't been able to find out much about him, perhaps someone could supply further details?

Suspicioner T7

Harry had his office on the fifth floor of the Terminal Annex building (also known as the Post Office) on the corner of Commerce and Houston streets, cattywampus to the grassy knoll, directly opposite the Texas School Book Depository in Dealey Plaza. He liked to describe the Annex as 'my building'. Through his windows he could see on the right 'Old Red', The Jail, the Records Building, Dal. Tex. and about 300 feet opposite, the sixth floor of the TSBD. Panning in an arc further left along Elm Street down to the Triple underpass then out across the western plains over towards Fort Worth.

In the lore of the Wild West, as an agent in the spread of the tentacles of commerce throughout the European invasion, the Post Office is a central player. The oldest Law enforcement organisation in the US, the Postal Inspectors, has an almost legendary status.

Indian territory, as Oklahoma was known, is nestled between the states of Texas and Kansas. This (thank's for the correction Tom) was confederate territory during the Civil War. And this is where Harry was born on the second of July, 1905. Little appears to be known about his early life, (in fact little is known about Harry, period) In Harrys mention of his father he describes him as a Goatherd.

By age 12 he was attending school in Kansas City. He graduated from high school and spent two years at William Jewell College at Liberty, Mo. and part of a third year in Kansas City.

During his schooling he worked in a toy factory, a bakery, lighting lamps, and as a clerk in the post office. He continued working in the post office while studying to become a CPA, and also while studying dentistry.

Then on to the second world war.

In 1942 he was still working with the USPO where he now became a Postal Inspector. On the day before his 43'rd birthday in 1948, Harry arrived in Dallas where he remained with the Postal Inspection Service until his retirement in 1966. At some point he became an FBI informant codenamed "T7".

On November 22, 1963, he observed the assassination through binoculars from his office. Throughout the following days he was a significant figure in the investigation.

He was with five or six other inspectors in his office. Through the morning he observed the preparations for the motorcade. He said, pointing out the TSBD, “Well, look at all those open windows. Wouldn’t that be a nice place to take a crack at the President?”

During the assassination he was using a pair of 7.5x50 binoculars when "all of a sudden there was a CRACK… CRACK… CRACK!! All of us thought that somebody was throwing firecrackers. We just never dreamed that anybody would be shooting at him.

Anyway, about the first or second crack, I wouldn’t know which, there was just a cone of blood and corruption that went up right in the back of his head and neck. I thought it was red paper on a firecracker. It looked like a firecracker lit up which looks like little bits of red paper as it goes up. But in reality it was his skull and brains and everything else that went up perhaps as much as six or eight feet. Just like that! Then just a minute later another crack, and everybody fell down like they were ducking firecrackers."

Edited by John Dolva
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There were indeed reports of shots from the Left. Watching through binoculars from his fifth floor office in the Terminal Annex building (or Post Office Building) opposite the Texas School Book Depository, was Harry D. Holmes, FBI informant T7.  

     

      "....Right after the assassination I called the boss in Fort Worth, who already had the chief on the phone line in Washington because everything was chaos. He told me, “Well, you’re in charge of the investigation over there for whatever they need in the way of postal inspectors’ help or cooperation. The entire manpower that we have over there is at your disposal and we’ll send more if you need them.”

      All the federal agencies would band together though they didn’t know what to do. Actually, for a while, they thought the shots came from my building, the Terminal Annex. So immediately we interviewed everybody on the floors on that side of the building to see what they knew or had seen because there was a possibility that it came from the post office. Of course, that was cleared up in a hurry.

      I had the radio on all the time but there wasn’t much that I could do. I had called Captain Fritz and told him, “If there is anything I can do, why, I’m available and I’ve got plenty of men available......”

JohnD

Shanet, come back , Please.

Edited by John Dolva
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No Problem!

I had best know a little in regards to Oklahoma history.

Especially since I designed and produced the official Commemorative Medallion to commemorate the Centennial Celebration of the Oklahoma Land Run.

Tom

P.S. I also have a lot of that native american heritage and the Tribal Roles located at the Oklahoma State Historical Society are critical if one wishes to trace his ancestry.

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