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Bernice, Robin and All,

My problem with the top north sewer grate would be the logistics of it, both as an area of exposure and ballistically. Consider that shot origins were coming from the north knoll and the TSBD and having Officer Foster and his partner on the Elm Street side atop the underpass, their attention would be drawn to their right, which would be toward the north sewer grate origin. This is also extremely close to their positions. Also consider the pedestrian traffic from the railyard approaching the top of the underpass from that side, which would compromise their position.

Ballistically, you have the limo travelling in a left to right angle from this origin and the head wound concentrated on the right side side specifically, from front to back.

Al

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having Officer Foster and his partner on the Elm Street side atop the underpass, their attention would be drawn to their right, which would be toward the north sewer grate origin. This is also extremely close to their positions.

Al,

Don't you find it significant that both officers on the overpass made up a long noisy freight train going by at the time of the shooting? Whatever their motive, this phantom train conveniently made it hard for them to see or hear anything.

Also consider the pedestrian traffic from the railyard approaching the top of the underpass from that side, which would compromise their position.

But a sniper would wait till the last possible moment to get into position. The pedestrians had already passed the sewer and were standing over Elm as the motorcade approached. The sniper would probably be already down in the sewer, so all he had to do was pop up when the time came. His spotter could have been the "cop" that Officer Mabra encountered in the railyard after the shooting (the "cop" who told Mabra he had been back there for about an hour and hadn't seen anyone; there is a hatless "cop" in one of the railyard photos). After shooting, the sniper could go back down and escape through the sewer system. The only problem is that there would have to be a moveable slat in the fence for him to shoot through, to be moved back into place before escaping. Unless there was a convenient hole in the fence that was probably not there before.

Ballistically, you have the limo travelling in a left to right angle from this origin and the head wound concentrated on the right side side specifically, from front to back.

I agree that the angle is still a problem, but it's less of an angle than from the Hatman position. I still favor the south knoll as the origin of the fatal head shot as you have proposed, but I can see a shooter from the north sewer too. I think the place was crawling with them.

Ron

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I think the place was crawling with them.

Ron

I agree Ron. Based upon the number of 'rifle sightings,' what little there is in print based upon interviews, and some 'chatter' -- the direction I was led in says that many withheld their fire. ?

All just a 'crapshoot' really, but as for me, I don't like the Grate at the top of the underpass, the storm drains on Elm, or South Knoll, personally. I've never heard or seen an indication that anyone was located in those positions, while IMO it's fairly obvious that men have been concealed in the parking area [behind the fence], on the stairs, behind the retaining wall, at the pergola gardens and at the north peristyle - in the various altered films and photos we have available to study.

Worth noting - there is very little photographic material available as relates to the area of the Pergola gardens, either shortly before, during, or after the shots were fired. Very little on the turn to Elm, also, which would have covered that area.

- lee

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having Officer Foster and his partner on the Elm Street side atop the underpass, their attention would be drawn to their right, which would be toward the north sewer grate origin. This is also extremely close to their positions.

Al,

Don't you find it significant that both officers on the overpass made up a long noisy freight train going by at the time of the shooting? Whatever their motive, this phantom train conveniently made it hard for them to see or hear anything.

Ron, I see this in either two ways. One, that their stress of the incident created a distortion of the time of when the train passed over and allowed them to convince themselves it was at the same time. Or two and more likely, they used this to cover for their mistake of being fixed on the happenings inside the limo instead of looking for the origin of the shots as it was occurring. Even with the latter, they were helpless to stop the assassination, but would have been of great help in proving multiple gunmen or even aiding in the their capture in the plaza. All witnesses at the time of the assassination, whether it be LE or citizens, developed a terrific tunnel vision at the time and was captivated by what was happening inside the limo. Their positioning, accompanied by this tunnel vision and the timing of the vollies allowed most to believe of a single shot origin and only three shots.

Also consider the pedestrian traffic from the railyard approaching the top of the underpass from that side, which would compromise their position.

But a sniper would wait till the last possible moment to get into position. The pedestrians had already passed the sewer and were standing over Elm as the motorcade approached. The sniper would probably be already down in the sewer, so all he had to do was pop up when the time came. His spotter could have been the "cop" that Officer Mabra encountered in the railyard after the shooting (the "cop" who told Mabra he had been back there for about an hour and hadn't seen anyone; there is a hatless "cop" in one of the railyard photos). After shooting, the sniper could go back down and escape through the sewer system. The only problem is that there would have to be a moveable slat in the fence for him to shoot through, to be moved back into place before escaping. Unless there was a convenient hole in the fence that was probably not there before.

I agree with that Ron, but that is what we see now. The problem would be relying on this. If there were others approaching as the limo came into the plaza, this would have taken this origin out of the equation. The key to a canyon shoot principle utilizing a triangulation of fire is to put your ideal shot origin position in total contrast to the others who are starting off the vollies. With the TSBD and then the north knoll position, the north end of the overpass would have been in direct field of recognition to Foster and his partner. It would also have been in the field of view of those across Elm who recognized the shots being fired across from them on the north knoll.

Ballistically, you have the limo travelling in a left to right angle from this origin and the head wound concentrated on the right side side specifically, from front to back.

I agree that the angle is still a problem, but it's less of an angle than from the Hatman position. I still favor the south knoll as the origin of the fatal head shot as you have proposed, but I can see a shooter from the north sewer too. I think the place was crawling with them.

Ron

The north knoll angle was incredible and the dramatic slowing of the limo would have created great difficulty in tracking the target, especially with a scoped rifle. The north sewer grate atop the underpass would have been more of an ideal angle, but the changing speed also created an elevation and azmuth challenge here where it would have created only a slight elevation issue on the south end.

Al

Edited by Al Carrier
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I think the place was crawling with them.

Ron

I agree Ron. Based upon the number of 'rifle sightings,' what little there is in print based upon interviews, and some 'chatter' -- the direction I was led in says that many withheld their fire. ?

All just a 'crapshoot' really, but as for me, I don't like the Grate at the top of the underpass, the storm drains on Elm, or South Knoll, personally. I've never heard or seen an indication that anyone was located in those positions, while IMO it's fairly obvious that men have been concealed in the parking area [behind the fence], on the stairs, behind the retaining wall, at the pergola gardens and at the north peristyle - in the various altered films and photos we have available to study.

Worth noting - there is very little photographic material available as relates to the area of the Pergola gardens, either shortly before, during, or after the shots were fired. Very little on the turn to Elm, also, which would have covered that area.

- lee

Lee, if this was planned properly, the ideal shooting positions would have been at the greatest risk of exposure to the GP if they were not distracted away from them. In this case, vollies with originating shots from the rear with initial focus on the limo, would have kept all eyes and cameras off the south end. Considering the position of the cameras in the plaza, the south end of the underpass would never have been in a shot at the time of the shooting, and it was not.

Al

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The north sewer grate atop the underpass would have been more of an ideal angle, but the changing speed also created an elevation and azmuth challenge here where it would have created only a slight elevation issue on the south end.

Al

Hi Al.... FWIW, the height-above-sea-level (HASL) of the TOP north sewer grate was 424.0'.

President KENNEDY's Zf-313 Elm Street point was at 418.6' HASL; adding 4' above the Elm Street Zf-313 point to represent the impact point/head would be at 422.6' HASL, so, from the TOP north sewer would be a relatively near-level shot, with targeting lead distance the paramount factor.

Interestingly, the 237' distance from the TOP north sewer to the Zf-313 street point is slightly less than the 265.3' distance from the warrenatti "snipers lair" "lone nut" to Zf-313.

As I am sure you know, the 2004 premiered "Discovery Channel: Unsolved History" (what I call the "Dealey Plaza II" segment) documentary lasered theoretical shots at night from both the TOP south and TOP north sewer locations. From both locations (I think the "laser assassin" was standing above the ground from each) the trajectory was shown (and filmed) to be unobstructed and target-aquireable directly onto the stand-in model upper half of the head.

From the TOP north sewer, neither CONNALLY at his Zf-313 position/posture--leaning back/being pulled by NELLIE limo leftward--with CONNALLY's Zf-313 head located near limo-centerline, nor the vertical right side of the limousine chrome handhold bar would have obstructed President KENNEDY either.

Where ever you place a TOP south sourced shot, that bullet trajectory would have had to pass extremely close (4" or less) to CONNALLY's profiled face/nose--also meaning that as seen from the TOP south assassin (somewhere south/southsoutheast of the slight angle on the TOP east face) CONNALLY's head left side profile would have blocked much of the view of President KENNEDY's head circa Zf-290 to 310. Additionally, that trajectory from the TOP south would have to pass not only above the upper surface of the chromed windshield frame (which it could), but would have to also pass in between the open space between the pushed-up vertical sunvisors (unless you posit a shot through ALTGENS #7 seen spider-cracks centered glass layers of the windshield.... which leads me to ask.... Do bullets entering into/passing through layered windshield glass create a backspatter of glass particulate? If so, is the glass backspatter dependednt on the bullet entry angle versus the windshield angle? Would a bullet entering/transiting windshield layered glass also first start to tumble towards the bullets first contact surface side?)

Is a south TOP assassin theoretically possible?....Yes. (although I must admit, all the factors--target lead, CONNALLY's profiled head/nose, windshield frame, sunvisors, KENNEDY visibility behind CONNALLY, rearview mirror, wind, etc, would be vital to asimilate....which, as you have detailed previously, would indicate an extremely profficient/experienced shooter.

Would it have been an extremely constrained, very small in time element and open spaces target aquisition/target lead window....Absolutely....

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/ROSE...NOUNCEMENT.html

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

TEAMWORK.gif

DHS3elevatedYELLOW.gif

"(D)rehm (sic) seemed to think the shots came from in FRONT OF or BESIDE the President." (my EMPHASIS)

----CHARLES F. BREHM, a gunfire-battle experienced, WWII D-day, United States Army Ranger veteran, quoted just minutes after the attack and while still standing within Dealey Plaza ("Dallas Times Herald," 11-22-63, final edition)

Edited by Don Roberdeau
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Lee, if this was planned properly, the ideal shooting positions would have been at the greatest risk of exposure to the GP if they were not distracted away from them. In this case, vollies with originating shots from the rear with initial focus on the limo, would have kept all eyes and cameras off the south end. Considering the position of the cameras in the plaza, the south end of the underpass would never have been in a shot at the time of the shooting, and it was not.

Al

Al,

Your response is interesting, however I am perhaps one of the minority that strongly believes that only a small percentage of photographic material has been made public. IMO there were some 15+ cameras rolling from a variety of locations, and very few, if any have had the privilege of seeing that footage.

And there are the unknowns [babushka Lady, Gordon Arnold, Mrs. Beck, etc].

Additionally, IMO, what we available to us is what was 'sanitized' for release. Much has has been lost, altered, over-exposed, spliced, etc. Aside from the 'spotters' which immediately acted to seize any John & Jane Q Public's independent photographic record, the FBI took additional measures to ensure control over the record.

Mr Shaneyfelt...

The Nix film was obtained as a result of a notice that the FBI gave to processing plants in the

Dallas area, that the FBI would be interested in obtaining or knowing about any film they

processed, that had anything on it, relating to the assassination

The record we have available is the limited and 'created' reality. The planning, what actually transpired, and the cover-up are three separate pieces - IMO.

- lee

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... 

And there are the unknowns [babushka Lady, Gordon Arnold, Mrs. Beck, etc]. 

...

- lee

Good Day Lee, & All.... With regard to GORDON ARNOLD's un-supported by anyone, and un-supported by any evidence claims, please read my studies, here....

http://members.aol.com:/droberdeau/JFK/BON...PINGarnold.html

....and, that study's followup, derived from a little-publicized, little-known, 1989 (post-"The Men Who Killed Kennedy") ARNOLD-recorded interview, that is available to anyone free-for-the-asking-from-the-"Sixth Floor Museum" ....

http://members.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK/addi...noldCLAIMS.html

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/ROSE...NOUNCEMENT.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/BOND...PINGarnold.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/GHOS...update2001.html

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

TEAMWORK.gif

DHS3elevatedYELLOW.gif

"When you have eliminated the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

---- Sherlock Holmes, "A Study In Scarlet," (1887) by A.C. DOYLE

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Lee

Good material dialogue.

Al Currier and I agree on the strong potential of the South Knoll or Overpass

marksman. Triangulation and Misdirection are central to this approach.

Triangulation with the Dal Tex / TBDS position and the grassy knoll indicates a

south overpass shooter.

The limo would be coming almost straight at the rifleman, allowing less "tracking"

The right occipital wound that is masked in the XRays and photos, but clear to witnesses at Parkland hospital..........this indicates a forward, even a stage left shooter.

MEMBER TOSH PLUMLEE lead a great discussion of this with lots of photos on a thread called THE TRIPPLE OVERPASS back in about November 2004.

As part of the phony observation (abort) team that JM/WAVE sent in from Miami CIA station, pilot PLUMLEE insists he was on the south side, he heard the shots directly and believe they echoed oddly away from the source and then smelled gunpowder.

In a similar straight as the shooter/spotter, PLUMLEE fled south, over the tracks to a vehicle. He has testified to the Kerry committee and has filed statements with the FBI concerning runaway organized crime under government auspices.

These are a few of the reasons some see the south position as the last shot.

A real paramilitary sniper who has never been named or found, to pick up the slack after the mafiosi and cuban politicos had fired )(or not fired)( their weapons.

Security stripping on the overpass explain the SS failures.

The overpass is also strongly airbrushed, a topic which may interest you.

:ph34r::lol::hotorwot:lol::ph34r:

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Good Day Lee, & All.... With regard to GORDON ARNOLD's un-supported by anyone, and un-supported by any evidence claims, please read my studies, here....

http://members.aol.com:/droberdeau/JFK/BON...PINGarnold.html

....and, that study's followup, derived from a little-publicized, little-known, 1989 (post-"The Men Who Killed Kennedy") ARNOLD-recorded interview, that is available to anyone free-for-the-asking-from-the-"Sixth Floor Museum" ....

http://members.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK/addi...noldCLAIMS.html

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/ROSE...NOUNCEMENT.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/BOND...PINGarnold.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/GHOS...update2001.html

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

TEAMWORK.gif

DHS3elevatedYELLOW.gif

"When you have eliminated the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

---- Sherlock Holmes, "A Study In Scarlet," (1887) by A.C. DOYLE

Hi Don!

Yes - I have seen your study, and am familiar with Arnold's TMWKK interview. I don't want to get into a 'was he for real or not' discussion here, but frankly, as it's my opinion that the crowd of people witnessed by Emmett Hudson behind him, 'taking pictures,' have been removed from all but the one Towner photo, it's not an easy sell to use these altered documents to individuals were 'not' there.

For example, the Moorman I posted earlier. That was a high quality .png which a member of this forum let me download. Here's a newspaper scan of the Dallas Times Herald. The man, or men, on the stairs are clearly still present. As an added bonus :hotorwot , I threw in a crop from the 'Moorman with zippo.' Still there.

- lee

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Lee

Good material dialogue.

Al Currier and I agree on the strong potential of the South Knoll or Overpass

marksman. Triangulation and Misdirection are central to this approach.

Shanet,

Consider that there may have been more than one mission involving teams of shooters - one for Kennedy, and one for Connally - what is the implication to the concept of triangulation?

What if the 'Plan' had nothing at all to do with the events that took place, but instead, the anticipation was that the Lincoln would stop once it was fired on [hole in the floor pan], in it's turn on to Elm, and that there were shooters positioned in numerous locations throughout the Plaza, with the expectation that the Queen Mary would unload?

This is one reason why I find Gerry Patrick Hemming's account of the plan for Miami Airport of great interest.

Triangulation with the Dal Tex / TBDS position and the grassy knoll indicates a

south overpass shooter.

The limo would be coming almost straight at the rifleman, allowing less "tracking"

The right occipital wound that is masked in the XRays and photos, but clear to witnesses at Parkland hospital..........this indicates a forward, even a stage left shooter.

Unless of course the Occipital wound was an entry wound. Someone once posted somewhere that there was a trace of lead on the Harper fragment that seemed to indicate that it was a point of entry.

Also, as I believe I have seen in many places, there was no damage to the left side of Kennedy's head?

MEMBER TOSH PLUMLEE lead a great discussion of this with lots of photos on a thread called THE TRIPPLE OVERPASS back in about November 2004.

As part of the phony observation (abort) team that JM/WAVE sent in from Miami CIA station, pilot PLUMLEE insists he was on the south side, he heard the shots directly and believe they echoed oddly away from the source and then smelled gunpowder.

The smell of gunpowder clung to the car in which Yarborough was sitting all the way to Parkland, as per his account. There was a cop stationed on the Stemmons Overpass who claimed that he smelled gunpowder also. There is also the cloud of smoke on the knoll, which some have theorized was the result of a large firecracker, set off as a diversion. This could account for the amount of smoke, and the white color, and the smell.

Otherwise, someone would have been relatively close to the street for the smell to reach Yarborough, and the cop on the underpass is still a mystery.

In a similar straight as the shooter/spotter, PLUMLEE fled south, over the tracks to a vehicle. He has testified to the Kerry committee and has filed statements with the FBI concerning runaway organized crime under government auspices.

These are a few of the reasons some see the south position as the last shot.

There are several conflicting witness accounts which have Kennedy's head exploding upon the 2nd shot heard, and curiousity as to why a last shot was fired at all.

A real paramilitary sniper who has never been named or found, to pick up the slack after the mafiosi and cuban politicos had fired )(or not fired)( their weapons.

I don't know anything about this one. Any chance you may be able to provide more details? I believe that there were multiple shooters, nothing to do with triangulated fire - located throughout the Plaza, and that some retained their fire. Just a theory.

Security stripping on the overpass explain the SS failures.

Agreed.

The overpass is also strongly airbrushed, a topic which may interest you.

That's interesting. But I don't know for sure what to make of it.

:ph34r::lol::hotorwot:lol::ph34r:

One last observation. If you view the Plaza from the top of the South Knoll, your odds of killing someone other than your intended target seem unreasonably high? There was also a cop stationed in that location, whose name escapes me [like always - JW Foster?], and none of the various witness in that location gave any indication that a shot originated from that area?

- lee

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One last observation.  If you view the Plaza from the top of the South Knoll, your odds of killing someone other than your intended target seem unreasonably high?  There was also a cop stationed in that location, whose name escapes me [like always - JW Foster?], and none of the various witness in that location gave any indication that a shot originated from that area
?

Sorry - I have a better view from the South Knoll, but it is on video. I can take a digital, but the result is lousy.

- lee

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Robin,

In watching that gif over and over again, I can't help but wonder about that white object that appears on the grass. I believe it has already been studied and written off, probably sometime ago, and I'm sure it's been covered here and there as some form of reflection from the lens, a malfunction with the camera, scratch on the film, etc. -- but if it's a piece of skull that flew violently forward and to the left, at an incredible rate of speed consistent with the velocity of impact, resting in the grass....well...doesn't say much for a shot from the front, and seems logical to me for the trajectory of the man behind the wall at the Pergola Garden area.

Not easy to make out in the background in this gif. Also not a very strong argument, but if Jackie is throwing another piece of his head and then crawling out the retrieve it, as what seems to be the case in the ABSmith 'visual mud' version of the Zapruder, it would be another reason to doubt a shot from the front.

I went over this before elsewhere, and was told it is only dust and scratches on the film - of course.

- lee

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