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Lonely Connect? Miami and New Orleans in 1963


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This question stems from Joan Mellens description of a Special Group that was formed by the Kennedys as a potential assasination team against Castro in the New Orleans area. Mellen argues that this was part of dual strategy, and was undertaken at the same time as Kennedy attempted a new detente with Castro.

Mellen claims the Kennedys were determined to keep this Special Group independent of the CIA, who they had a long standing disagreement with for a number of different reasons (not just Vietnam, just Cuba, just the role of Special Ops, or just the timing and location of costly land wars, but combinations of these factors).

She then argues that this Special Group to kill Castro was "turned" by the CIA to kill Kennedy. Because the New Orleans ground level of the Special Group had such direct contact with Bobby Kennedy, the AG was turned into his brother's killers' keeper.

1.DO WE ACCEPT THIS CIA PENETRATION OF THE SPECIAL GROUP AS THE BEST FRAMEWORK FOR UNDERSTANDING THE ASSASINATION?

2. HOW SHOULD WE DEFINE THIS SPECIAL GROUP MORE PRECISELY?

3. HOW AND WHO IN JM/WAVE WAS INVOLVED IN THIS"TURNING?" HOW WIDESPREAD WAS THE KNOWLEDGE OF THIS PLAN TO TURN THE SPECIAL GROUP?

The reason I did not put this on the Joan Mellen thread in the History Books section, is that I am trying to clarify this concept of the Special Group, as it relates to various other "Groups" like Opreration 40 and Suite 8F group that may or may not connect. I have read around a lot on the Index and still this ambiguity persists.

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Nathan I would be very careful about accepting anything in "A Farewell to Justice" as historical truth.

You state that Mellen "argues that this Special Group to kill Castro was "turned" by the CIA to kill Kennedy. Because the New Orleans ground level of the Special Group had such direct contact with Bobby Kennedy, the AG was turned into his brother's killers' keeper."

What is her proof of this?

It is nil.

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Nathan I would be very careful about accepting anything in "A Farewell to Justice" as historical truth.

You state that Mellen "argues that this Special Group to kill Castro was "turned" by the CIA to kill Kennedy. Because the New Orleans ground level of the Special Group had such direct contact with Bobby Kennedy, the AG was turned into his brother's killers' keeper."

What is her proof of this?

It is nil.

------------------------------

I worked and flew with Adler Berriman Seal for many years. Also, I spent far too many hours on the telephone with Hopsicker (while he was shacked up with "Berry's widow) and he quotes me in his phony book.

Seal always signed off as "Berry", NOT Barry. There was NEVER an airport at LaCombe, LA, not even a private "grass strip" such as those used by crop-dusters. The nearest airport is at Slidell, some 13 miles distant towards the northeast. The next one is to the northwest at Mandeville, and almost 20 miles distant.

There was never a training camp at LaCombe, LA -- nor at Hammond, LA, -- nor at N.A.F. (LTA) Houma, LA , because the McLaney operation (involving Rich Lauchli, "Papucho" Espinoza, Herman Koch Gene, et al.) was a "Honey-Trap Op" to give the Cuban DGI Agents "handling" Ricardo Davis, Nico Crespi, and Oswald further bona fides that they were pro-Castro, and snitching out "Gusano" training/raider camps and operations.

NONE existed since we were there during early 1962, and so they had to be created out of thin air. When Paulino Sierra came down from Chicago with "Big Buck$", Sanchez Arango's AAA put on a phony show at the now defunct No Name Key site. Batista Falla (M.D.C.) wanted to sucker out some Sierra money, so he sent some clowns to Hammond, in tan/khaki uniforms but no guns. Laureano planned to sucker Sierra by making a deal with Guatemalen Roberto Alejos, who told him that any Cubans coming into Guatemala would have to chop wood, after they got work permits.

When the dumbass "Gusanos" discovered this farce, they immediately returned to Miami, went back to Flagler Surplus (W. Flagler & 17th Ave.) and traded in the khakis for 25 cents on the dollar !! Not to be outdone, Laureano had his guys grab Fernando Fernandez as a "Castro Spy". Because Fernandez was a real "Dangle', this blew a genuine penetration Op.

So, as we told Oliver Stone: We will build you a "Training Camp" (at Jean laFitte, LA); but the whole Garrison spiel on a Ponchartrain Camp is complete bullxxxx. It was Mike mcLaney doing a favor for RFK. Lauchli bitched about it later, after he had served his 2nd prison term -- and wanted to know why this whole sham went down? Especially since he had NEVER built the bomb fuses at his shop in Collinsville, Illinois.

Sorry folks, NO camps, no LHO & Ferrie, Russo, Novel, et al. -- just a pervert doing his duty for Marcello !!

__________________________

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Nathan I would be very careful about accepting anything in "A Farewell to Justice" as historical truth.

You state that Mellen "argues that this Special Group to kill Castro was "turned" by the CIA to kill Kennedy. Because the New Orleans ground level of the Special Group had such direct contact with Bobby Kennedy, the AG was turned into his brother's killers' keeper."

What is her proof of this?

It is nil.

------------------------------

GPH's Posting:

I worked and flew with Adler Berriman Seal for many years. Also, I spent far too many hours on the telephone with Hopsicker (while he was shacked up with "Berry's widow) and he quotes me in his phony book.

Seal always signed off as "Berry", NOT Barry. There was NEVER an airport at LaCombe, LA, not even a private "grass strip" such as those used by crop-dusters. The nearest airport is at Slidell, some 13 miles distant towards the northeast. The next one is to the northwest at Mandeville, and almost 20 miles distant.

There was never a training camp at LaCombe, LA -- nor at Hammond, LA, -- nor at N.A.F. (LTA) Houma, LA , because the McLaney operation (involving Rich Lauchli, "Papucho" Espinoza, Herman Koch Gene, et al.) was a "Honey-Trap Op" to give the Cuban DGI Agents "handling" Ricardo Davis, Nico Crespi, and Oswald further bona fides that they were pro-Castro, and snitching out "Gusano" training/raider camps and operations.

NONE existed since we were there during early 1962, and so they had to be created out of thin air. When Paulino Sierra came down from Chicago with "Big Buck$", Sanchez Arango's AAA put on a phony show at the now defunct No Name Key site. Batista Falla (M.D.C.) wanted to sucker out some Sierra money, so he sent some clowns to Hammond, in tan/khaki uniforms but no guns. Laureano planned to sucker Sierra by making a deal with Guatemalen Roberto Alejos, who told him that any Cubans coming into Guatemala would have to chop wood, after they got work permits.

When the dumbass "Gusanos" discovered this farce, they immediately returned to Miami, went back to Flagler Surplus (W. Flagler & 17th Ave.) and traded in the khakis for 25 cents on the dollar !! Not to be outdone, Laureano had his guys grab Fernando Fernandez as a "Castro Spy". Because Fernandez was a real "Dangle', this blew a genuine penetration Op.

So, as we told Oliver Stone: We will build you a "Training Camp" (at Jean laFitte, LA); but the whole Garrison spiel on a Ponchartrain Camp is complete bullxxxx. It was Mike mcLaney doing a favor for RFK. Lauchli bitched about it later, after he had served his 2nd prison term -- and wanted to know why this whole sham went down? Especially since he had NEVER built the bomb fuses at his shop in Collinsville, Illinois.

Sorry folks, NO camps, no LHO & Ferrie, Russo, Novel, et al. -- just a pervert doing his duty for Marcello !!

__________________________

END of GPH Post

Reply from Plumlee:

GPH You and your other "Friend" out there are lying SOB's. Where in the hell is your PROOF. You word is TRASH... YOUR LIFE IS TRASH. I do not give a damn how you trash me. It is expected from the likes of you. I am alive and I know your phoney BS stories. You are a SICK SICK man.. But when you trash DEAD MEN and put words in their mouths when they or their families can no longer defend themselves is about as low life as one can get. Go to Hell where you belong and take your bullxxxx with you.

John: How much longer is this GPH going to be allowed to post his BS and slander people. Where is his proof and backup documentation for the things he says. How much longer are Forum members going to have to put up with this confirmed BS artist. When is enough enough?

I will not address this xxxxx and LOW LIFE Bull xxxxter. He can say and do what he wants toward me. He knows I know his BS. That's why he has to defuse me. I'm not dead yet

!. He never flew with Seal. In fact he never knew Seal or any of that bunch.

2. Seals wife never screwed around with Hopsicker. Because the Seal family knew GPH's BS and his attempts inserting himself into the Seal story, is the real reason he has to discredit the Seal family

3. The whole story and GPH's recap posted is BS.

ON and ON with name dropping and name calling. I have had enough.

I was there and I was active. And I have submitted proof of the things I have said and done. The Senate of the United States has confirmed many of the details. The Gary Hart letter and the associated names found on the MILITARY INTEL MAP,( of which GPH calls a" road map" )with the names written on it long before the facts of the Contra matter (1983) came to light, are just a small part of the proof of the things I have posted on your forum. I have worked under many different operative names in my thirty plus years in MI operations and I do know how and why the ones I was associated with worked the way they did.

I have posted key information for the sake of research and truth. I DO NOT know how, who, or why these ops came to pass, but I do know where I was and when and why and who was with me.. To be discredited by the likes of this clown to cover for his lies I guess should be an honor, but I want nothing to do with this xxxxx.. He has to attack me and others in order for his BULLxxxx to stand. It is a must that we must be discredited in order for his bullxxxx to stand unchallenged.

This A-H is allowed to spout off with nothing to back up what he says and then to top it off slanders the widows of dead men and refuses to prove she slept with Hopsicker and slanders others who try to establish the true record. He uses "DEAD PEOPLE" to prove what he says. And we are to take him at face value because HE will get offended?. What a crock of BS.

I will no longer read this forum or be a part of it because of these outright lies of Hemming and others and their disinformation presented as FACTS; unchallenged. As I have said before HE HAS and IS DOING MORE DAMAGE TO TRUE RESEARCH than any dis information expert could possibly do to this new young generation of truth seekers.

This man, or trash, will not even address you and your request for a time line and other important information you and others request of him. Because of this your forum, in my eyes has become a third rate of no value toward real research.

I request you remove my membership from your site. I will not be a part to this type of slander and dis information from the likes of this GPH and his cronies..

tosh plumlee. (END OF POSTINGS)

Edited by William Plumlee
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Hi Nate,

How'd you do that?

I've been trying to instigate some action here for some time, and you do it in one post.

You must have touched a sensitive nerve.

First TG chimes in, suspicous of Mellen for bringing up the Special Group subject at all, but buying into the Ultimate Sackers C-Day tripe, then you get Hemm and Hawll go at it like a couple of dogs. They been fighten' so long they forgot how to hold a conversation.

All three could have told you a few things, as you do ask some pertinent questions I've been asking myself.

This question stems from Joan Mellens description of a Special Group that was formed by the Kennedys as a potential assasination team against Castro in the New Orleans area. Mellen argues that this was part of dual strategy, and was undertaken at the same time as Kennedy attempted a new detente with Castro.

BK: This is not just A Special Group, but THE Special Group - the sub-committee of the National Secuirty Council that devised, planned, approved and ran covert operations. As the Church Committee described it, "Throughout its history, the 40 Committe, and its direct predecessorts - the 303 Committee, the 5412 Committee or Special Group, the 10/5 and 10/2 Panals - have been charged with various NSC directives with exercising political control over foreign covert operations..."

"According to Bromley Smith, an official who served on the NSC staff from 1958 to 1969, the concept of 'plausible denial' was taken in an almost literal sense: 'The government was authorized to do certain things that the President was not adivised of.'" As described by Dick Helms, "....[the] Special Group was the mechanism....set up...to use as a circuit-breaker so that these things did not explode in the President's face and so that he was not held responsible for them." When RFK came in, the Special Group became The Special Group Augumented.

Mellen claims the Kennedys were determined to keep this Special Group independent of the CIA, who they had a long standing disagreement with for a number of different reasons (not just Vietnam, just Cuba, just the role of Special Ops, or just the timing and location of costly land wars, but combinations of these factors).

She then argues that this Special Group to kill Castro was "turned" by the CIA to kill Kennedy. Because the New Orleans ground level of the Special Group had such direct contact with Bobby Kennedy, the AG was turned into his brother's killers' keeper.

BK: A similar scenario that we are led to believe is that some of the anti-Castro assassins infiltrated to Cuba to kill Castro were captured and "turned" and sent back to kill JFK.

1.DO WE ACCEPT THIS CIA PENETRATION OF THE SPECIAL GROUP AS THE BEST FRAMEWORK FOR UNDERSTANDING THE ASSASINATION?

BK: Of course the anti-Castro Cubans were penetrated by Castro's G2, but the leak of the back channell negotiations between JFK & Castro via William Attwood - Lisa Howard - Carlos Lechuga - et al., that was a very closely held secret known only at the hightest leves - JFK - RFK - Bundy - Gordon Chase (NSA) - Attwood - and possibly Stevenson at the UN - Lisa Howard and the Cubans. Oh, yea, the NSA was most definately listening in on the NYC-Cuba phone conversations.

2. HOW SHOULD WE DEFINE THIS SPECIAL GROUP MORE PRECISELY?

BK: Examples of the memos produced by such meetings can be found quoted in my JFK Coup - The Administrative Details thread, but depending on what time period the usual suspects are: Higher Authority (JFK's Covert Handle), RFK, McNamara, Secretary Vance, Dean Rusk, Maywell Taylor (JCS), Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. W. F. McKee, Roswell Gilpatrick, McGeorge Bundy, John McCone (CIA) Des FitzGerald (CIA), Sterling Cottrell, Bromley Smith (NSC), Thomas Parrott, Ted Shackley (CIA),

3. HOW AND WHO IN JM/WAVE WAS INVOLVED IN THIS"TURNING?" HOW WIDESPREAD WAS THE KNOWLEDGE OF THIS PLAN TO TURN THE SPECIAL GROUP?

BK: The Kennedys thought that with direct, hands on approval of specific operations they could better control them - witness the Ballon Propaganda program that was well along in development and ready to go when JFK called it off simply because of a conversation he had with Bill Morrow. RFK called off all covert ops during the Cuban Missile Crisis and when he learned that Bill Harvey - America's 007 - had sent a covert team into Cuba, Harvey was taken out the game. But when they approved the maritime sabotage operatiouns and started them up - without any time constraints - they couldn't call them back. At what level did they turn from targeting Castro to JFK - well, I can asure you that JFK and RFK didn't approve it, despite the propaganda now coming out that RFK gave the okay.

The reason I did not put this on the Joan Mellen thread in the History Books section, is that I am trying to clarify this concept of the Special Group, as it relates to various other "Groups" like Opreration 40 and Suite 8F group that may or may not connect. I have read around a lot on the Index and still this ambiguity persists.

Another thought on the Special Group and similar buffer committees, both Mellen and the Ultimate Sack boys put them in a horizonal line as if they were all separate, automonious units, when they were in a stepladder heirachy - like a military chain of command so when they chopped off the head the rest survived.

I think if we all look at your questions closer we'll come to a better understanding of what happened at Dealey Plaza.

BK

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Hi Nate,

How'd you do that?

I've been trying to instigate some action here for some time, and you do it in one post.

You must have touched a sensitive nerve.

First TG chimes in, suspicous of Mellen for bringing up the Special Group subject at all, but buying into the Ultimate Sackers C-Day tripe, then you get Hemm and Hawll go at it like a couple of dogs. They been fighten' so long they forgot how to hold a conversation.

All three could have told you a few things, as you do ask some pertinent questions I've been asking myself.

This question stems from Joan Mellens description of a Special Group that was formed by the Kennedys as a potential assasination team against Castro in the New Orleans area. Mellen argues that this was part of dual strategy, and was undertaken at the same time as Kennedy attempted a new detente with Castro.

BK: This is not just A Special Group, but THE Special Group - the sub-committee of the National Secuirty Council that devised, planned, approved and ran covert operations. As the Church Committee described it, "Throughout its history, the 40 Committe, and its direct predecessorts - the 303 Committee, the 5412 Committee or Special Group, the 10/5 and 10/2 Panals - have been charged with various NSC directives with exercising political control over foreign covert operations..."

"According to Bromley Smith, an official who served on the NSC staff from 1958 to 1969, the concept of 'plausible denial' was taken in an almost literal sense: 'The government was authorized to do certain things that the President was not adivised of.'" As described by Dick Helms, "....[the] Special Group was the mechanism....set up...to use as a circuit-breaker so that these things did not explode in the President's face and so that he was not held responsible for them." When RFK came in, the Special Group became The Special Group Augumented.

Mellen claims the Kennedys were determined to keep this Special Group independent of the CIA, who they had a long standing disagreement with for a number of different reasons (not just Vietnam, just Cuba, just the role of Special Ops, or just the timing and location of costly land wars, but combinations of these factors).

She then argues that this Special Group to kill Castro was "turned" by the CIA to kill Kennedy. Because the New Orleans ground level of the Special Group had such direct contact with Bobby Kennedy, the AG was turned into his brother's killers' keeper.

BK: A similar scenario that we are led to believe is that some of the anti-Castro assassins infiltrated to Cuba to kill Castro were captured and "turned" and sent back to kill JFK.

1.DO WE ACCEPT THIS CIA PENETRATION OF THE SPECIAL GROUP AS THE BEST FRAMEWORK FOR UNDERSTANDING THE ASSASINATION?

BK: Of course the anti-Castro Cubans were penetrated by Castro's G2, but the leak of the back channell negotiations between JFK & Castro via William Attwood - Lisa Howard - Carlos Lechuga - et al., that was a very closely held secret known only at the hightest leves - JFK - RFK - Bundy - Gordon Chase (NSA) - Attwood - and possibly Stevenson at the UN - Lisa Howard and the Cubans. Oh, yea, the NSA was most definately listening in on the NYC-Cuba phone conversations.

2. HOW SHOULD WE DEFINE THIS SPECIAL GROUP MORE PRECISELY?

BK: Examples of the memos produced by such meetings can be found quoted in my JFK Coup - The Administrative Details thread, but depending on what time period the usual suspects are: Higher Authority (JFK's Covert Handle), RFK, McNamara, Secretary Vance, Dean Rusk, Maywell Taylor (JCS), Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. W. F. McKee, Roswell Gilpatrick, McGeorge Bundy, John McCone (CIA) Des FitzGerald (CIA), Sterling Cottrell, Bromley Smith (NSC), Thomas Parrott, Ted Shackley (CIA),

3. HOW AND WHO IN JM/WAVE WAS INVOLVED IN THIS"TURNING?" HOW WIDESPREAD WAS THE KNOWLEDGE OF THIS PLAN TO TURN THE SPECIAL GROUP?

BK: The Kennedys thought that with direct, hands on approval of specific operations they could better control them - witness the Ballon Propaganda program that was well along in development and ready to go when JFK called it off simply because of a conversation he had with Bill Morrow. RFK called off all covert ops during the Cuban Missile Crisis and when he learned that Bill Harvey - America's 007 - had sent a covert team into Cuba, Harvey was taken out the game. But when they approved the maritime sabotage operatiouns and started them up - without any time constraints - they couldn't call them back. At what level did they turn from targeting Castro to JFK - well, I can asure you that JFK and RFK didn't approve it, despite the propaganda now coming out that RFK gave the okay.

The reason I did not put this on the Joan Mellen thread in the History Books section, is that I am trying to clarify this concept of the Special Group, as it relates to various other "Groups" like Opreration 40 and Suite 8F group that may or may not connect. I have read around a lot on the Index and still this ambiguity persists.

Another thought on the Special Group and similar buffer committees, both Mellen and the Ultimate Sack boys put them in a horizonal line as if they were all separate, automonious units, when they were in a stepladder heirachy - like a military chain of command so when they chopped off the head the rest survived.

I think if we all look at your questions closer we'll come to a better understanding of what happened at Dealey Plaza.

BK

With reference to the Special Group, I wonder if Joan Mellen ever plans to rectify the FUBAR footnotes situation, (as in a corrected version of tome) I would have thought a writer of her caliber would have the professionalism to at least to acknowledge the FUBAR-ness of the situation to the 'buying public,' (as well as presenting a major hurdle to JFK Researchers that are attempting to wade thru that last half of that 100 page carnage), but I guess that was expecting too much.

Edited by Robert Howard
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Tosh: I hope you reconsider. Otherwise his [Hemming's] bs just stands, unchallenged.

What constructive purpose is served by challenging Gerry Hemming on anything? I certainly sympathize with Tosh's frustration that Hemming has such a platform for disseminating false history here and that his privileged treatment enables such free-wheeling distortion, but whenever a probative question is asked, Hemming quickly resorts to personal abuse and obfuscation. To his credit, Hemming has at times admitted that he is not telling forum members what he supposedly knows about Dallas. My take on Hemming's remarks is that anyone who thinks he can be charmed, cajoled or tricked into a statement of substance about Dallas is wrong. Therefore, his pronouncements about what transpired are of the misleading, debunking and ridiculing sort. The overall result of such contribution is worse than no contribution at all.

T.C.

Edited by Tim Carroll
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Tosh: I hope you reconsider. Otherwise his [Hemming's] bs just stands, unchallenged.

What constructive purpose is served by challenging Gerry Hemming on anything? I certainly sympathize with Tosh's frustration that Hemming has such a platform for disseminating false history here and that his privileged treatment enables such free-wheeling distortion, but whenever a probative question is asked, Hemming quickly resorts to personal abuse and obfuscation. To his credit, Hemming has at times admitted that he is not telling forum members what he supposedly knows about Dallas. My take on Hemming's remarks is that anyone who thinks he can be charmed, cajoled or tricked into a statement of substance about Dallas is wrong. Therefore, his pronouncements about what transpired are of the misleading, debunking and ridiculing sort. The overall result of such contribution is worse than no contribution at all.

T.C.

---------------------------------

"CONTRIBUTION" -- and what did I just give Y'all. I was the one who had his career, family, and associates

exposed to contempible lies by "Jimbo/Gumbo" Garrison. Whatsa matter, did I spoil your "din-din ??"

Which of you bookreaders was with Garrison during 1967 ?? I wish some of the "gullible-groupies" would get off of the "Costner-is-really-Garrison" wagon, and go tell Weberman your tearful tales. He is the one who accuses me of setting up LHO, "Hapless" Hall (Trafficante's boy, even after he was warned that Santo was a DGI asset), Larry Howard, Bill Seymour, Elvis, Mrs. Surratt, Bremer, Hinckley, et al.; and ad nauseum.

I don't give a rat's rectal orifice what some wet-dreamers argue about. THERE WERE NO CAMPS in NO during 1963. Garrison admitted it to me, when I threatened to go to the LA Bar with a criminal complaint against his ass !! His response (one of dozens) was that: He could prove that specific persons were plotting (conspiring) to kill some VIP, and whether it was Fidel, Che, Raul, JFK, RFK, it didn't matter -- and they were in violation of LA law.

When I explained the rights of belligerents to him (or holders of "Commissions to Cruise - Letters of Marque) those rights under international law -- to kill any other enemy belligerent (or "unlawful combatant") ANYWHERE THEY MIGHT BE FOUND, he almost choked on his "Lobster Thermidor"!! Fidel, et al. were LAWFUL TARGETS, as long as the attackers were themselves "Lawful Belligerents" -- as was JFK ("Commander-in-Chief"); RFK (and other Cabinet members) !!

You want to ask a half-way intelligible question, and it doesn't compromise your ego -- SHOOT. The whole world has had "Moi" holding the bag on the JFK matter since 1964. However, in some cases it did serve as a shield from the "Nasties".

I just can't get over a clown who weeps crocodile tears about Berry's reputation (and that of his widow); but out of the other side of his "pie-hole"; he goes along with Hopsicker fingering "Barry and the Boys" as capital murderers Now, one would think that HIS defending against those scurrilous allegations might also benefit the widow??!!

Widow Seal handed the telephone to Hopsicker [the first time he stated that he was "shacking" with her], and she agreed that this was the case. Maybe it was someone else useing the same "Caller I.D." that had lit up on my telephone.

You think that I didn't check the matter out, and NOT just because Hopsicker approached me out of the blue ??!! And moreover, I would be the last person to fault a widow who is on the road to recovery from a horrible event !!

But no, "Mr. Outboard Motor Corporation" secret agent man knows that the wet-dreaming anti-American element -- just wants to her more condemnation of his own country. Ask Dick Clark Production folks (check website for e-mail) about this clown's attempts at repeatedly conning money from the "gullibles" and the wet-dreamers !!

Not to worry, the Khazar has a court document coming his way also, and most agree that this is long overdue. Even one of Davidson Jr.'s shysters wants to get in on the act. Not going to happen though.

As I repeatedly suggested, fill out a sworn & notarized statement (Affidavit) as to your "personal knowledge" of these matters. I might also suggest that it not center upon scribbling, the movies, or smoke dreams. I will then forthwith forward it to the Chief Judge of the D.C. District Court, and then let matters take their course !!

Once again, NO camps, NO Ferrie, NO Oswald, NO Bannister, NO Diddly Squat !! You've been had by amateurs, not "Pros". Are you a shooter, sniper, pilot, swimmer, demo man (UDT/EOD), recon man, parachutist, and have you ever even served ?? -- or are you just an "armchair expert" on everything ??

Chairs,

GPH

__________________________

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What constructive purpose is served by challenging Gerry Hemming on anything? I certainly sympathize with Tosh's frustration that Hemming has such a platform for disseminating false history here and that his privileged treatment enables such free-wheeling distortion, but whenever a probative question is asked, Hemming quickly resorts to personal abuse and obfuscation. To his credit, Hemming has at times admitted that he is not telling forum members what he supposedly knows about Dallas. My take on Hemming's remarks is that anyone who thinks he can be charmed, cajoled or tricked into a statement of substance about Dallas is wrong. Therefore, his pronouncements about what transpired are of the misleading, debunking and ridiculing sort. The overall result of such contribution is worse than no contribution at all.

The above is is the definitive word on the subject. The 'historical record' becomes a Orwellian/clandestine version of the cat and the mouse. Enter into the Room full of mirrors, is it door number 1, door number 2 or a combination of Door Number 1 and 2a, or Door Number 3 or 4, the trails lead to the proverbial Road to Nowhere. Go to JFK Lancer and look at the history of the conferences and you will find that this was the story 10 years ago. Anyone who thinks that everyone on the Forum is a benign kindly person, seeking the truth about November 22, 1963 is truly reading posts though the looking glass. There is only one person I would make that charge towards. Submitted for your approval; the 'Timeline' thread that John Simkin introduced that is conspicuously devoid of content.

In the final analysis, it is like the old British gentleman, regaling his audience, "and there I was, standing face to face with the most hideous lion ever seen, I summoned my charge to hand me my trusty rifle and carefully took aim...."

Edited by Robert Howard
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Once again, NO camps, NO Ferrie, NO Oswald, NO Bannister, NO Diddly Squat !!

Gerry may well be right on this one. I've searched in vain for this, for years. Everybody knows there were training camps north of the lake in 1963, right?

There was certainly a training area north of the lake involving some 20 Cubans from late June to late July, 1963, involving Victor Paneque and the Movimiento Democratico Cristiano. It was closed after the Mandeville arms bust, and Carlos Jose Bringuier was called upon to help some of the trainees back to Miami.

Garrison tried hard to find this camp (or camps) after hearing of it from Carlos Crusto Quiroga on January 13, 1967, but was never able to do so, the documents of his investigation show. Several of those with knowledge of the camp were interviewed, including some who attended it, but they all said it was a Cuban affair, with no significant involvement by Americans. My interviews with two of the trainees elicited the same result. No Ferrie, Banister or Oswald.

(Parenthetically, there were several training camps of various sorts in the area two years earlier, in 1961. The CIA operated a training camp in UDT and other activites in the Belle Chasse area between February and April of 1961. Between November 1960 and August 1961, David Ferrie conducted training of "Internal Mobile Security Units" in various areas, including Belle Chasse and Abita Springs, but those attending say it was for his unofficial "Metairie Falcon Cadet Squadron" (a CAP-style unit) and did not include Cubans (except for a one-time post BoP visit by Julian Buznedo Castellanos, who Ferrie had in-tow for several weeks and may have been the "thick-necked Cuban" Garrison was looking for.) After his August 1961 arrests and the September Houma caper, Ferrie was ostracized by the FRD/CRC, the "official" anti-Castro group. I can find little, if any, verifyable anti-Castro activity by him after that date!)

I always wondered if Garrison simply mixed up the chronology, and conflated the 1961 activities with the 1963 camp. The Garrison documents seem to support this confusion.

What, then, are we to make of Delphine Points Roberts' belated assertion that Banister ran the 1963 camp, and that Ferrie frequently took Oswald there? Or a couple of other similar accounts? Or of HSCA's Tannenbaum claining to seen a film of Oswald and Ferrie at the 1963 camp, a film that has never surfaced (and nobody else on HSCA recalls)? (Tony Summers, who elicited this from Roberts, still feels that her account seemed sincere.)

One or the other account is wrong. Either there was only one camp, and Garrison, Roberts and Tannenbaum are wrong, or the Cubans are lying, or there was ANOTHER camp which is confusing the issue. At this point, I can't say which might be true. It's one of those widely held and repeated assassination stories that might prove to be wrong.

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Once again, NO camps, NO Ferrie, NO Oswald, NO Bannister, NO Diddly Squat !!
Gerry may well be right on this one. I've searched in vain for this, for years. Everybody knows there were training camps north of the lake in 1963, right? There was certainly a training area north of the lake involving some 20 Cubans from late June to late July, 1963, involving Victor Paneque and the Movimiento Democratico Cristiano. It was closed after the Mandeville arms bust, and Carlos Jose Bringuier was called upon to help some of the trainees back to Miami....

After his August 1961 arrests and the September Houma caper, Ferrie was ostracized by the FRD/CRC, the "official" anti-Castro group. I can find little, if any, verifyable anti-Castro activity by him after that date! I always wondered if Garrison simply mixed up the chronology, and conflated the 1961 activities with the 1963 camp. The Garrison documents seem to support this confusion.... It's one of those widely held and repeated assassination stories that might prove to be wrong.

Although it may well be true that assertions about Banister-Ferrie-Oswald being present at the Lacombe camp in 1963 may be incorrect, the record does show that McLaney's property was raided in late July. The HSCA found no evidence that the Louisiana camp was connected to the CIA or the Mafia. According to Summers' Not In Your Lifetime, p. 252:

"Among those detained or formally cautioned in the raid were a number of American advisors, including members of a group called Interpen - more grandly known as the Intercontinental Penetration Force. They included Alexander Rorke and Frank Sturgis, both of whom had persistently flouted government orders ever since the missile crisis."

Healthy skepticism might warrant a review of previous assertions about Banister-Ferrie-Oswald being at the camp and Garrison may have confused dates, but Hemming's assertion that there were "No camps ... No Diddly Squat !!" goes too far.

T.C.

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Here's what Gurvich had to say:

14 February 1967

To: Jim Garrison

District Attorney

From: William Gurich

Investigator

Subj: SEIZUE OF EXPOSIVES - LACOMBE, LOUISIANA AUGUST 1963

I have on this date read the January 21, 1967 interview between CARLOS

QUIROGA and yorself. In reading this I noticed your interest in arms,

ammunition, and explosives used by

Cuban trainees at a training camp on the North side of Lake Pontchartrain

from New Orleans. The following information was given to you orally but

not in a formal manner therefore I am repeating these facts relative to

the seizure of explosives in the approximate area of the Cuban training

camp.

In August 1963, in Lacombe, Louisiana, a large quantity of dynamite and

bomb casings were seized on the property of William J. McLaney. It is

assumed the FBI conducted this.

Others involved were:

VICTOR DOMINADOR ESPINOSA HERNANDEZ

CARLOS EDUARDO HERNANDEZ SANCHEZ

JOHN KOCK GENE

ACELO PDEROS AMORES

MIGUEL ALVAREZ JIMENEZ

ANTONIO SOTO VASQUEZ

SAM BENTON

BYRON CHIVERTON

RICH LAUCHLI (OR LUCHLI)

EARL J. WASEM, JR.

RALPH FOLKERTS

AMORES once reported an airstrip 40 miles west of New Orleans where

aircraft - B25's or B26's were kept. This report was to a Federal Agency.

CHIVERTON was possibly co-owner of the LACOMBE property and resided at

4207 Fountainebleu Drive, New Orleans.

LAUCHLI (or LUCHLI) was proprietir of LAXCO MACHINE SHOP, which apparently

was in COLLINSVILLE, ILLINOIS.

McLANEY may be the same one who had extensive gambling interests in

HAVANA, CUBA, prior to the CASTRO administration. He was evicted from CUBA

by CASTRO and it is reasonable to assume he suffered considerable

financial losses.

In your interview with QUIROGA he mentioned using U-HAUL trailers. A

U-HAUL trailer was used to transport these explosives ( approximately 2500

pounds) by some of the above mentioned LATINS. The license of this trailer

was FLORIDA 7E-668 and possibly came from FLORIDA (JACKSONVILLE) through

RALPH FOKERTS.

Subsequent to this I was informed this seizure was made in the first block

of "PONTCHARTRAIN" in BIG BRANCH, LOUISIANA. This community is immediately

wet of LACOMBE. The building from which the explosives were seized was

described as a residence setting about 100 yards back on the Wesy side of

the road or street and had a large garage. Two aerial photo- graphy

missions in the COVINGTON-BIG BRANCH-LACOMBE area failed to disclose a

building of acceptable comarison. Due to the abunance of tall pine trees a

ground survery would be perhaps more useful.

Your attention is invited to reports of ADA ALVIN OSTER relative to an

arms cache in this area. His reports cover arms but not explosives but

does refer to "PONTCHARTRAIN" STREET.

I will attempt to develope more information from my contacts in order to

secure the exact location.

WHG:wg

And Alcock:

FEBRUARY 5, 1967

TO: JIM GARRSION, DISTRICT ATTORNEY

FROM: JIM ALCOCK, ASSISTANT DISCTRICT ATTORNEY

RE: ANGEL VEGA

At 10:00 PM on January 31, 1967, CHARLES JONAU and I spoke to

ANGEL VEGA. This meeting, arranged by LAUREANO BATISTA,

Took place at the headquarters of the Christian Democratic Movement

located at 1732 N.W. 7th Street, Miami, Florida….

ANGEL VEGA is a slightly built Cuban male appearing to be in his

late twenties. He was one of the twenty Cubans who trained at a camp

in the New Orleans area. VEGA arrived at eth camp sometime near

the middle or end of June, 1963. When he arrived, there were only

four or five others at the camp site. The house and grounds where they

stayed were completely run down, giving the appearance they had not

been inhabited for quite a while. Their first task was to refurbish the

house and its conveniences.

All personnel stayed in the house which consisted of three rooms, a

kitchen and two baths. In addition to this, there was a screened porch

on the front and back of the house. The grounds had a swimming pool

which was constantly fed by an underground spring. Also, there was a

stream or bayou running through the property. Within sight of the property

was another house. The camp was served by a dirt road which VEGA recalls

was never used by vehicular traffic during his entire stay at the camp. ANGEL VEGA

is positive he could find this camp site today, and would be willing to come to

New Orleans on a weekend for that purpose.

Training at the camp was principally limited to a physical fitness program. Daily exercises

were taken along with swimming lessons. The men at the camp also practiced fording the stream

that ran through the property. At no time did the men stray farther than about 200 yards from

the house. No shooting whatsoever took place at the camp. They had two or three old Springfield

rifles and M-1 carbine. These weapons were never fired. The M-1 carbine was used to show the

men how to disassemble and assemble the weapon. During the course of many of the exercises, the

men would carry small logs to simulate the weight of a weapon. Also, these logs were used in

mock hand-to-hand combat training.

About two days before the cache of explosives was found at the other camp, ANGEL VEGA and two

other camp members left for Miami with the Castro agent, FERNANDO FERNANDEZ. Shortly thereafter

all Cubans at the camp returned to Miami. This was about August 1, 1963. Therefore, the camp

was in operation for about five or six weeks.

While at the camp, ANGEL heard rifle shots and explosions from the direction of the other camp.

However, at no time did VEGA and his fellow Cubans know of the existence of the other camp.

This came to their knowledge only after the explosives were found.

As ANGEL recalls, the camp site was owned by two American males in their fifties or sixties. He

feels they were in the insurance business. All contacts with them were made by RICARDO (DICKEY)

DAVIS. They came to the camp occasionally to see if the men needed any food. DAVIS came to the

camp about 8 to 10 time, mostly bringing food when he came. On one occasion, he brought his

wife and he did some target shooting with a 22 caliber pistol.

ANGEL VEGA never heard the name of SERGIO ARCACHA SMITH or LINDBERGH mentioned and never saw

any other Americans at the camp with the exception of the two previously mentioned. Angel

remembers the following men to have been at the camp with him:

VICTOR PANEQUE 2ND in Command

FIDEL ZALDIVAR 1st in Command

……PERIU VICTORIA

MIGUEL CARBALLIDO

HENRY INFANTE

RAUL FANTONE

FERNANDO FERNANDEZ

SERGIO (NOT ARCACHA SMITH)

As you can see, ANGEL could only remember the first name of one man and only the last name of

another. LAUREANO BATISTA, however, is still trying to locate a complete camp roster for us. He

is also trying to locate the names if the Americans who owned the camp. If he is successful, he

has promised to mail the information to me in New Orleans.

I feel that ANGEL VEGA was completely candid and cooperative throughout the interview. However,

as far as the movement and its key personnel are concerned, we should expect some hedging.

JIM ALCOCK

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Hey, Gerry Hemming -- as a personal favor to one of the group, could you square things with Daniel Hopsicker? I was thinking of using YOU to send him some of the 1970s comic books I wrote, you know, both of us being in the Education Forum and all, and get a formal endorsement from him for my comic book stories. Just that - and nothing else. The part that bothers me is that no CIA agents whatsoever like the comics I wrote, and that just isn't right. Just when I was formulating the idea in my head, YOU up and call him a phony. You can get to stuff on my comics at either of these URLs, they're both the same except one has my picture, if one doesn't work, try the other:

http://pweb.netcom.com/~mthorn/tcb_car.htm

http://anomalog.com/brennanlegalhelp.html

That's ALL I'm asking...just tell Hopsicker you're sorry and send him some of my comics.

Best -- T. Casey Brennan

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David,

As you can see, ANGEL could only remember the first name of one man and only the last name of

another. LAUREANO BATISTA, however, is still trying to locate a complete camp roster for us.

If you ever see I camp roster, would you let me know?

I've been interested in the MDC and this camp for a while.

Thanks,

Steve Thomas

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