How good were the shooters in DP?

[Lee Forman]

This doesn't belong here, but here it is...since the Kellerman quote reminded me.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.

Mr. SPECTER. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that radio message

Gary Mack, in his HSCA testimony:

The first one I want to ask you about and urge you to poke around as much as you can, recordings of the Secret Service radio channels in the motorcade. There were at least two, perhaps three. There is a reference, and I am sorry I don't recall exactly where, but there is a reference that the Dallas Police broadcasts were also monitored by the Secret Service. They had a center set up at the Adolphus Hotel. It was then fed back to Air Force One out at Love Field and then monitored back in Washington.

Those recordings have never surfaced. There is an indication in the testimony from one of the Secret Service agents in the Kennedy car that he had referred to a transcript. Well, a transcript tells me that there must have been a recording somewhere. So I would urge you to check with the Signal Corps or its successor agency or agencies to find out what happened to those transcripts and recordings.

One of the reasons I suggest that is, the agent in question, Agent Kellerman, testified that he had his microphone on when the final shot or shots were fired. It would be theoretically another recording of at least part of the shooting.

2 excellent websites on the HT220 radio:

http://www.batnet.com/mfwright/HT220.html

http://www.batnet.com/mfwright/secretservice220.html

In addition to the radio which Kellerman was using, I found a site where folks recalled where they were at the time of the shooting. There was an interesting piece by a man who claimed his mother was listening to a live radio broadcast, and heard the sounds of what sounded like firecrackers in the background. I have heard that a radio station may have been broadcasting in or nearby Dealey Plaza - anyone know more about that?

- lee

[John Dolva]

interesting, prob just coincidence

from Mississippi Sovereignty files

[Lee Forman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kenne...e_assassination

No radio or television stations broadcast the assassination live, because the area through which the motorcade was traveling was not considered important enough for a live broadcast. Most media crews were not even with the motorcade but instead were waiting, at the Trade Mart, in anticipation for Kennedy's arrival. Those members of the media that were with the motorcade were riding at the rear of the procession.

...

A Dallas radio station KBOX-AM did recreate the sounds of the shooting on a Long playing record and it released the record album with excerpts of news coverage of that day, but it was not an original recording of the shooting.

Interesting...

[Pat Speer]

Tom, I gather from your posts that the first shot caused the back wound, the second shot caused a high head wound, and the third shot caused a low head wound. Is that correct? Well, which shot caused the neck wound?

Are you defending the single-bullet theory? If it was the last shot that caused the neck wound then how come Kennedy reaches for his neck long before that shot? And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

If you actually believe in the SBT, then you have no business calling anyone here a "sheeple".

1. As was always the original concept, the first shot only entered a short distance into the back of JFK.

This was, if most will recall, the autopsy conclusion at the end of the autopsy, and was therefore also what the FBI agents present (Siebert & O'Neill) thereafter carried back to JEH.

2. Even the FBI shooting scenario of 2/7/64 still carried that the first shot only lodged a short distance into the back of JFK.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

& one can rest assured that neither JEH, nor his personnel are/were so stupid that the believed that a 2,000-2,200 feet per second bullet only penetrates a couple of inches without some form of interference to it's velocity.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, which shot caused the neck wound?

The anterior neck wound was created by the small flat-based/cone-shaped lead fragment which sheared from the base of CE399, apparantly from it's abrupt halt and striking of the right transverse of the C-7 vertebrae.

The fragment (CE340) was recovered in the rear floorboard of the Presidential Limousine and was originally photographed. Only to later disappear.

Which of course gave someone a lead fragment, which was from the base of CE 399, which weighed in at .9 grains, with which to pull the sleight- (slight) of hand transfer/exchange to & with the JBC wrist fragments.

Therefore insuring that NAA would demonstrate that the JBC wrist fragments and CE399 had comparable NAA contents.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you defending the single-bullet theory? If it was the last shot that caused the neck wound then how come Kennedy reaches for his neck long before that shot? And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a complete and total supportor of the SBT theory, as it is a fairly well established fact.

Might I also add that CE399 has nothing to do with the SBT theory and/or the "Magic Bullet" theory.

The SBT/Magic Bullet is the one that was fired; impacted it's target(s), created severe physical damage, and then had it's bullet disappear.

Somewhat like the third/last/final shot to the head of JFK which occurred some 2.3 seconds or so after the second shot which struck him in the head at Z-313.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are:

A. Reactions to being shot at

B. Reactions to being shot

Having been on the receiving end of both, the correct answer is "A".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you actually believe in the SBT, then you have no business calling anyone here a "sheeple

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last time that I looked around, it was quite lonesome out here on this limb, by myself, claiming that:

1. There was only a single assassin

2. Three shots were fired and all three shots struck JFK

3. That the head shot at Z313 is the second shot fired in the shooting sequence

4. That the third/last/final shot also struck JFK in the head as well

5. That there is a true SBT/Magic Bullet

6. That CE399 is not, and has nothing to do with the TRUE SBT/Magic Bullet

7. That the WC is an intentional lie and misrepresentation of the facts of the assassination, even though there was in fact only a lone shooter.

8. That the only SBT that exist in the assassination is the third/last/final shot fired in the shooting sequence, which:

a. Struck JFK in the rear of the head, just in/at the edge of the hairline, travelling/tunnelling up (in reference only to the direction to the top of the head) to strike in the vicinity of the EOP.

And, after having traversed the remaining brain of JFK, exited to strike JBC in the right shoulder as he lay across the open area of the Jump seats, directly in front of the head of JFK.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In every "Magic" act that I have ever seen, items are made to "disappear" right in front of one's eyes.

CE399 is just a plain ole everyday bullet. Certainly nothing magic in it that I am aware of.

Anymore "sheeples" wish to get on this wagon and ride to the facts and truth of the shooting? Ultimately, I may get lonely out here all by my lonesome.

You're right, Tom. You're so out there on the limb, it's unfair to call you a "sheeple". You are undoubtedly an original. I'm still having trouble with some of your theory, however. If CE 399 impacted backwards on Kennedy and the base of the bullet exited his throat, where did the low head bullet exit? Did it go down Kennedy's throat and exit from the same location? I'm having trouble understanding how this bullet could go on to strike Connally in his armpit and exit from his chest. Or was it a fragment from 313 that struck Connally?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, I gather from your posts that the first shot caused the back wound, the second shot caused a high head wound, and the third shot caused a low head wound. Is that correct? Well, which shot caused the neck wound?

Are you defending the single-bullet theory? If it was the last shot that caused the neck wound then how come Kennedy reaches for his neck long before that shot? And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

If you actually believe in the SBT, then you have no business calling anyone here a "sheeple".

1. As was always the original concept, the first shot only entered a short distance into the back of JFK.

This was, if most will recall, the autopsy conclusion at the end of the autopsy, and was therefore also what the FBI agents present (Siebert & O'Neill) thereafter carried back to JEH.

2. Even the FBI shooting scenario of 2/7/64 still carried that the first shot only lodged a short distance into the back of JFK.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

& one can rest assured that neither JEH, nor his personnel are/were so stupid that the believed that a 2,000-2,200 feet per second bullet only penetrates a couple of inches without some form of interference to it's velocity.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, which shot caused the neck wound?

The anterior neck wound was created by the small flat-based/cone-shaped lead fragment which sheared from the base of CE399, apparantly from it's abrupt halt and striking of the right transverse of the C-7 vertebrae.

The fragment (CE340) was recovered in the rear floorboard of the Presidential Limousine and was originally photographed. Only to later disappear.

Which of course gave someone a lead fragment, which was from the base of CE 399, which weighed in at .9 grains, with which to pull the sleight- (slight) of hand transfer/exchange to & with the JBC wrist fragments.

Therefore insuring that NAA would demonstrate that the JBC wrist fragments and CE399 had comparable NAA contents.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you defending the single-bullet theory? If it was the last shot that caused the neck wound then how come Kennedy reaches for his neck long before that shot? And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a complete and total supportor of the SBT theory, as it is a fairly well established fact.

Might I also add that CE399 has nothing to do with the SBT theory and/or the "Magic Bullet" theory.

The SBT/Magic Bullet is the one that was fired; impacted it's target(s), created severe physical damage, and then had it's bullet disappear.

Somewhat like the third/last/final shot to the head of JFK which occurred some 2.3 seconds or so after the second shot which struck him in the head at Z-313.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are:

A. Reactions to being shot at

B. Reactions to being shot

Having been on the receiving end of both, the correct answer is "A".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you actually believe in the SBT, then you have no business calling anyone here a "sheeple

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last time that I looked around, it was quite lonesome out here on this limb, by myself, claiming that:

1. There was only a single assassin

2. Three shots were fired and all three shots struck JFK

3. That the head shot at Z313 is the second shot fired in the shooting sequence

4. That the third/last/final shot also struck JFK in the head as well

5. That there is a true SBT/Magic Bullet

6. That CE399 is not, and has nothing to do with the TRUE SBT/Magic Bullet

7. That the WC is an intentional lie and misrepresentation of the facts of the assassination, even though there was in fact only a lone shooter.

8. That the only SBT that exist in the assassination is the third/last/final shot fired in the shooting sequence, which:

a. Struck JFK in the rear of the head, just in/at the edge of the hairline, travelling/tunnelling up (in reference only to the direction to the top of the head) to strike in the vicinity of the EOP.

And, after having traversed the remaining brain of JFK, exited to strike JBC in the right shoulder as he lay across the open area of the Jump seats, directly in front of the head of JFK.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In every "Magic" act that I have ever seen, items are made to "disappear" right in front of one's eyes.

CE399 is just a plain ole everyday bullet. Certainly nothing magic in it that I am aware of.

Anymore "sheeples" wish to get on this wagon and ride to the facts and truth of the shooting? Ultimately, I may get lonely out here all by my lonesome.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The fragment (CE340) was recovered in the rear floorboard of the Presidential Limousine and was originally photographed. Only to later disappear.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correction: CE840

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0433b.htm

I would further add that when FBI Agent Frazier received this evidence, in his own handwritten notes regarding the .9 grain fragment he wrote--------C1 ?

C1 Being CE399.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, I gather from your posts that the first shot caused the back wound, the second shot caused a high head wound, and the third shot caused a low head wound. Is that correct? Well, which shot caused the neck wound?

Are you defending the single-bullet theory? If it was the last shot that caused the neck wound then how come Kennedy reaches for his neck long before that shot? And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

If you actually believe in the SBT, then you have no business calling anyone here a "sheeple".

1. As was always the original concept, the first shot only entered a short distance into the back of JFK.

This was, if most will recall, the autopsy conclusion at the end of the autopsy, and was therefore also what the FBI agents present (Siebert & O'Neill) thereafter carried back to JEH.

2. Even the FBI shooting scenario of 2/7/64 still carried that the first shot only lodged a short distance into the back of JFK.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

& one can rest assured that neither JEH, nor his personnel are/were so stupid that the believed that a 2,000-2,200 feet per second bullet only penetrates a couple of inches without some form of interference to it's velocity.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, which shot caused the neck wound?

The anterior neck wound was created by the small flat-based/cone-shaped lead fragment which sheared from the base of CE399, apparantly from it's abrupt halt and striking of the right transverse of the C-7 vertebrae.

The fragment (CE340) was recovered in the rear floorboard of the Presidential Limousine and was originally photographed. Only to later disappear.

Which of course gave someone a lead fragment, which was from the base of CE 399, which weighed in at .9 grains, with which to pull the sleight- (slight) of hand transfer/exchange to & with the JBC wrist fragments.

Therefore insuring that NAA would demonstrate that the JBC wrist fragments and CE399 had comparable NAA contents.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you defending the single-bullet theory? If it was the last shot that caused the neck wound then how come Kennedy reaches for his neck long before that shot? And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a complete and total supportor of the SBT theory, as it is a fairly well established fact.

Might I also add that CE399 has nothing to do with the SBT theory and/or the "Magic Bullet" theory.

The SBT/Magic Bullet is the one that was fired; impacted it's target(s), created severe physical damage, and then had it's bullet disappear.

Somewhat like the third/last/final shot to the head of JFK which occurred some 2.3 seconds or so after the second shot which struck him in the head at Z-313.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And how come Connally reacts to his wounds long before that shot?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are:

A. Reactions to being shot at

B. Reactions to being shot

Having been on the receiving end of both, the correct answer is "A".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you actually believe in the SBT, then you have no business calling anyone here a "sheeple

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last time that I looked around, it was quite lonesome out here on this limb, by myself, claiming that:

1. There was only a single assassin

2. Three shots were fired and all three shots struck JFK

3. That the head shot at Z313 is the second shot fired in the shooting sequence

4. That the third/last/final shot also struck JFK in the head as well

5. That there is a true SBT/Magic Bullet

6. That CE399 is not, and has nothing to do with the TRUE SBT/Magic Bullet

7. That the WC is an intentional lie and misrepresentation of the facts of the assassination, even though there was in fact only a lone shooter.

8. That the only SBT that exist in the assassination is the third/last/final shot fired in the shooting sequence, which:

a. Struck JFK in the rear of the head, just in/at the edge of the hairline, travelling/tunnelling up (in reference only to the direction to the top of the head) to strike in the vicinity of the EOP.

And, after having traversed the remaining brain of JFK, exited to strike JBC in the right shoulder as he lay across the open area of the Jump seats, directly in front of the head of JFK.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In every "Magic" act that I have ever seen, items are made to "disappear" right in front of one's eyes.

CE399 is just a plain ole everyday bullet. Certainly nothing magic in it that I am aware of.

Anymore "sheeples" wish to get on this wagon and ride to the facts and truth of the shooting? Ultimately, I may get lonely out here all by my lonesome.

You're right, Tom. You're so out there on the limb, it's unfair to call you a "sheeple". You are undoubtedly an original. I'm still having trouble with some of your theory, however. If CE 399 impacted backwards on Kennedy and the base of the bullet exited his throat, where did the low head bullet exit? Did it go down Kennedy's throat and exit from the same location? I'm having trouble understanding how this bullet could go on to strike Connally in his armpit and exit from his chest. Or was it a fragment from 313 that struck Connally?

Either you were not around, or else paid small attention to the drawings presented long ago.

1. CE399 struck and completely penetrated one of the limbs of he live oak tree which is located directly in front of the TSDB.

2. This action created a complete loss of stability to the bullet as well as severely affected the velocity.

3. The bullet began to tumble end over end---striking in a fully base first attitude.

4. The deformed 4mm X 7mm base of the bullet created a "Punch" type wound of entry into the back of JFK, which of course also measured 7mm wide X 4mm in vertical dimension*

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The back wound into JFK would have been elongated vertically due to the downward angle of fire, had the bullet struck in a normal attitude with no interference. I also long ago posted a copy of the HSCA drawing which demonstrates this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5. The back wound of JFK also contained considerable fabric which had been carried down into the wound by the entering projectile.*

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This too is one of the indicators that the flat base of the bullet, not unlike a flat "wadcutter" bullet, punched out the considerable fabric which is missing from the coat and shirt of JFK and thereafter carried this fabric down into the wound of entry.

It happens to be one of those "forensic" facts that seldom does a normal bullet carry fabric from the clothing into the wound of entry, due to the manner in which the bullet basically "bores" through and pushes the fabric aside as it enters and passes through the fabric.

Just as the back wound of JBC, which was of course created by the nose end of a bullet, did not have any fabric carried into it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6.The small flat-based/cone shaped lead fragment which was found with the two other irregular lead fragments in the rear floorboard, is, beyond any ballistic doubt, from the exact base of a WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullet.

It could have only been forced out the base of the bullet by the external forces which would have squeezed and flattened a bullet, such as CE399, after having passed through a dense material, such as the limb of a live oak tree.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 6/25/64, after the WC had completed their re-enactment of the assassination, Mr. Robert West returned to Dealy Plaza from his office in order to gain some additional data required to complete the survey plat.

At this time, he observed members of the WC re-enactment group, with a bucket lift, and they were up in the top of the live oak tree which is located directly in front of the TSDB, and of whose limbs can be seen in various re-enactment photo's.

Therefore, it will serve little purpose to think that one will find the limb which CE399 struck and passed through.

It should also be noted that as accidental as it is that this bullet even managed to hit JFK after having struck the tree limb, it is also the obvioius reason as to why the first shot did not blow his head off.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Second Shot aka/Z313 is the shot responsible for the high/cowlick entry into the skull as is evidenced by the X-rays and the determinations off the HSCA Medical panel.

This shot, upon exiting, created the "flap" section of skull which was blown over onto the right side of the head and can thereafter be observed in the Z-film after impact of the shot.

This is the only bullet that fragmented, and it's fragments are responsible for a variety of damages which include the windshield crack, the molding dent; the fragment wound to the wrist of JBC, as well as the Tague/curb strike.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The last/third/final shot which occurred "down by the steps" "15 feet in front of" Mr. Altgens, is the shot responsible for the edge of hairline entry into the back of the scalp of JFK, as well as the EOP entry hole through the skull.

Since the shot obviously did not strike JFK and thus "tunnel" upwards to strike the EOP, then there is left only the aspect that the head of JFK was not in the vertical position at time of impact.

In fact, the strike occurred with JFK bent well forward at the waist, with his head turned almost fully to the right and head somewhat drooped.

And again, I will repeat, that this shot penetrated the coat of JFK at the junction where the coat collar turn down meets the regular coat. Because of the physical position of JFK as well as the angular nature of the strike of the bullet, the bullet did not penetrate the shirt which was held firmly in place around the neck by it's having been buttoned.

Rest assured that it is not coincidence that there is a hole, at this location on the coat of JFK, that aligns perfectly with the edge of the hairline entry wound into the scalp at the base of JFK's neck.

And, you can throw out the window any and all testimony that this is where some "comparison sample" was taken.

Because a large section of the skull had already been separated and was laying over on the right hand side of the skull at the time of impact of the third/last/final shot, when the bullet entered at the base of the skull/eop area, it managed to send numerous fractures running up and into various directions. Which when these fractures encountered the existing area of missing skull, the fractures ceased, yet nevertheless caused this area of the skull in the EOP vicinity to fracture and fragment into numerous pieces.

After passing through the skull and brain of JFK, the bullet continued on it's downward path, directly in to right rear shoulder of JBC who was by then laying across the jump seats, with his shoulder and back in the almost horizontal position, and thus exposing his back to this exiting bullet.

Thereafter, the bullet passed through the chest of JBC, exited the chest and went into the left leg/thigh.

And, although not likely that you are ready and or willing to accept this. Thats all folks!

No multiple assassins!

No Body snatchers!

Just three shots, two of which were to the head of JFK

One of which has been made to completely disappear, thereby having the wounds that it created blamed on another bullet, while all factual evidence of the bullet and when it was fired have become lost.

Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear!

[Al Carrier]

How good were the shooters is the questions.

Let's look at it from a shooters perspective.

The shooters were firing on a moving target at varying speeds at varying angles of lateral and horizontal placement. The shooters had to get off their shots and escape undetected (and I will not even address the issue of suppressors). The shooters had to cause as little damage outside of the target as possible (only JFK and Connally were hit).

Were these professionals? You bet your ass. When I term "professionals", I am not referring to Italian or French mobsters. I am talking about professionals in terms of military snipers. I have posted time and again on this here and at Lancer. I have introduced the term "Canyon Shoot" to those outside the military sniper realm. I have talked about gravitational pull issues, panning and recovery of sight alignment after the shot.

I see no need to go into again as the challenges I have received have been from those who have shot stationary fixed targets on a controlled range. Apples and oranges.

Al

Al,

Much appreciated. A concise evaluation of how good the shooters needed to be (from someone with knowledge in this area) was what I was trying to obtain. (although the opinions expressed by others have also been helpful).

So despite the fact that the organisers made every effort to accomodate the shooters, the shooters were required to be among the very best in their field. Probably obvious in light of the importance of their job, but I was curious about this aspect of the assassination. Thanks again.

Might I recommend: ayoob@attglobal.net

Or else search: Massad Ayoob

or else: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/biblio.html

Ayoob, Massad

The Ayoob Files - The JFK Assassination: A Shooter's Eye View

in: American Handgunner, March/April 1993

Gun experts examine a number of issues related to Oswald's MC rifle, his shooting skill, ballistics, and the reaction of Kennedy to the shots. The single-assassin theory is found to be well within the limits of plausibility.

Perhaps Mr. Simkin will approach Massad and see if he will discuss the accuracy; integrity; capability; reliability; operating speed; etc; of the Carcano Rifle.

Then again, Mr. Massad Ayoob may just tell everyone to read and review what he wrote for American Handgunner some 13 years ago.

Once again I am shaking my head at the likes of Mr. Purvis. In the fifteen or so odd years that I have been researching the JFK Assassination and the six or so years that I have been public with my research, I have found that the majority of my time has been spent wasted on the likes of Mr. Purvis and others who have deemed themselves worthy to interpret data and challenge those who have a background in such matters that are capable of intepreting data. The Mr. Purvis types will always find some prostitute to call an expert to drive their THEORY home while interpreting video and testimony to fit their THEORY when they have no clue as to what they are talking about as they have no background or hands-on experience to relate to what they are saying. I bring out issues such as how the MC had a considerable percentage of non-existent resistant trigger travel before the break, that would make this weapon a poor choice for a precision rifle. I also bring out that the weapon has a short stock and long bolt which would make target reaquisition extremely difficult. I also brought out how a heavy long bullet fired from a low level velocity cartridge would create considerable difficulty in adapting to elevation and changes in a moving target. These issues go on deaf ears when dealing with the Tom Purvis' of the research community because they cannot begin to understand what I am talking about. If one would take the time to study Craig Robert's recreation or look into Carlos Hathcock's interpretation of the likelihood of the official scenario, then this might come together. But what the hell does Roberts, Hathcock or I know beyond the expertise in weapons and certification and documentation of being a proven scout sniper?

An example of the prostitute to prove a point issue, lets take Mr. Ayoob since Mr. Purvis has used him here to prove his point. Masad Ayoob is a Reserve Police Officer who boasts of an extensive background in the Middle East and runs a shooting academy where he makes large sums of money from in-bread red-necked derelicts from both the civilian and LE market, that like Mr. Purvis believe what they read when they wished to believe it. Before one takes too much credibility from anything the likes of Ayoob says, I would recommend they ask someone from a military or LE firearms background on their take of Mr. Ayoob.

In 1991, my agency transitioned from a .357 magnum revolver to a semi-automatic pistol. I took part in a committiee to test various semi-autos on the market and we went unanimously with the Glock Model 22 which is a full sized handgun chambered for the .40S&W cartridge. by this time Glock had been on the American Market for about two years and had already grabbed onto roughly 40% of the LE market in semi-auto handguns. The FBI did a study and developed the 10mm which the .40S&W evolved from as it was just a cut down cartridge, lower velocity version of the 10mm. The FBI denounced the Glock and the .40S&W and armed their agents with the 10mm in two versions produced by S&W, which were stainless, large bulky framed handguns. (Shortly after my agency transitioned to the Glock, I was involved in a shooting where I was the first LE officer in the state of Iowa to shoot an individual with the Glock. I was successful in stopping the individual who was attacking me with a knife with a three shot placement to the pelvic girdle.)

In 1993, a cable network television news magazine came out with an hour long episode entitled, "GLock, a Dangerous Weapon". In this episode, they introduced the public to four lawsuites being filed against Glock where LE Officers supposedly were involved in wrongful (accidental) shootings. Ayoob followed the money in line with the FBI and took part in this news magazine and made the statement that "You cannot train LE officers to keep their finger off the trigger of the weapon under stress." The Glock has three internal safeties and no external safeties and many in the lawsuites were claiming that the weapon just went off. Ayoob is a prostitute but not an idiot so he took up the stance that the accidental shootings were the cause of impossible training to keep the officers fingers off the triggers until ready to shoot. He then put on a rediculous demonstration where he held a Glock pointed at a target with his finger on the trigger. He then struck his forearm in the region of the radial nerve and the gun went off. When one slowed down the video, they would see that the Glock fired before he struck his forearm. The point being, most competion with Glock at the time were the S&W second and third generation, the Beretta and Sig which had either an external safety on the lower receiver or the slide. He was saying that LE officer could be trained to manually manipulate the external safety under stress, but could not be trained to keep their finger off the trigger. Both are what is defined as fine muscle group obedience and either can only be mastered by the same repetative training. What the prostitute Ayoob failed to tell the news magazine either because of his ignorance or because of his alterior motives, is that officers who carried weapons with external safeties were in large part trained to disengage the safety before initial holstering, so that they did not have to deal with this issue under stress. Under stress of drawing and firing, the ten year standard at the time of this study showed that LE officers had 2.5 seconds from beginning to end of a LE gunfight. He also relayed the light trigger on the Glock when the Glock produced weapons with a standard 5lb trigger, NY#1 8lb trigger and NY#2 12lb trigger. A revolver double action trigger is in the range of 9-11lbs.

In 1998, the FBI, DEA and Boarder Patrol all began transitioning their agencies to the Glock .40S&W. The 10mm is a round of the past as the frame was too large for most officers and almost all female officers/agents and the recoil was difficult to say the least for most. Even S&W pistols chambered for .40S&W were too bulky and the trigger pull too difficult especially for multiple shot placement. Glock published their annual magazine that year with the FBI's article on going to their weapon. The following article was written by Massad Ayoob, backing the Glock weapon! Prostitute?

In conclusion, believe what you will and trust who you will. But please look a little deeper than what the wanna-bes are producing at face value. I do not have the time and strength to continue to argue with the Purvis' of the community. My silence is not a sign of defeat to their challenges, just a reluctance to continue to fight against their hollow challenges that they produce.

Al

[Dawn Meredith]

Al:

I find that if I just don't read Purvis- or any LNer- I enjoy this forum far more.

You can't employ logic with a person so brainwashed, (imho).

Dawn

[Jim Hackett II]

Craig Roberts and Gunny Hathcock!

Yep Al, you have my attention and expression of gratitude.

Having had the honor of attending by command performance <grin> an instructional session listening to Gunny Hathcock long ago, I know the truth he spoke about shooting and such things. May he have the peace he deserves now.

The truth is indestructible if that is a comfort.

Best things to you Mr. Carrier.

Jim

[Duke Lane]

They were better than Cheney.

Yeah, our first "lone nut vice president!"

[Duke Lane]

Actually, it is inconceiveable to me as to why anyone would fall for the "acoustics studies" when so many valid earwitnesses have stated in effect: Bang--------------------------------Bang----Bang!

...

I do seem to recall that the consensus of witnesses was: BANG-------------------------------Bang--Bang!

I don't think there was a concensus at all as to how long there was between shots, only that the second two were more closely spaced than the first two. Either of the two "timings" above fit that bill.

It's my humble hypothesis that the first shot was taken by someone who "jumped the gun," so to speak, that is, fired before he was supposed to. He would be someone who had the time to stash the gun even given the Marrion Baker timeline, and clearly had time to leave the floor without being seen - in fact, he testified to that very thing, as did others, tho' he's never been connected to the shooting before. As to motive, it could have been as simple as the one most often ascribed to Oswald.

[Christopher T. George]

Al:

I find that if I just don't read Purvis- or any LNer- I enjoy this forum far more.

You can't employ logic with a person so brainwashed, (imho).

Dawn

Hi Dawn

I can understand your attitude although I find I must commend Mr. Purvis for the best posts that I have seen from him in this forum. While I am not a person who uses guns or rifles, his point that a marksman aiming from behind, as the Presidential motorcade proceeded away from the TSBD, would have the best shot, makes eminent sense, the target being relatively more stationary than shooting from the side at a moving motorcade, where you would have to aim ahead of the targets in a moving limousine where the shot(s) would be many fold more difficult. I am also greatly intrigued by Tom Purvis's claim about the yellow marks on the curb along the procession route which is the first I had heard of them and which would seem to mark off a killing zone as he legitimately, in my view, claims. To me, this is startling and potentially significant information. Does anybody else have any views about the yellow marks on the curb as viewable in the Zapruder film? As posted by Lee Forman, in his post of Feb 10 2006, 06:50 PM (thanks, Lee!), I show below the URL for one of the Zapruder frames (z357) showing one of the yellow stripes.

Chris

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z357.jpg

Edited February 15, 2006 by Christopher T. George

[Ron Ecker]

I am also greatly intrigued by Tom Purvis's claim about the yellow marks on the curb along the procession route which is the first I had heard of them and which would seem to mark off a killing zone as he legitimately, in my view, claims. To me, this is startling and potentially significant information. Does anybody else have any views about the yellow marks on the curb as viewable in the Zapruder film?

Bill Miller, where are you? Bill posted a couple of years ago on Lancer that he talked to Dallas cab drivers about the yellow stripes. He was told that there were such yellow stripes elsewhere in Dallas, that the idea dated back to the late 1950s, and that the purpose was to let drivers know, mainly at night when visibility was poor, that the road was turning.

[John Dolva]

signals for whom?? the driver, the signalers or the shooter.

why a signal to a shooter in TSBD?

who/what was the signal to driver shooter signaler?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

How good were the shooters is the questions.

Let's look at it from a shooters perspective.

The shooters were firing on a moving target at varying speeds at varying angles of lateral and horizontal placement. The shooters had to get off their shots and escape undetected (and I will not even address the issue of suppressors). The shooters had to cause as little damage outside of the target as possible (only JFK and Connally were hit).

Were these professionals? You bet your ass. When I term "professionals", I am not referring to Italian or French mobsters. I am talking about professionals in terms of military snipers. I have posted time and again on this here and at Lancer. I have introduced the term "Canyon Shoot" to those outside the military sniper realm. I have talked about gravitational pull issues, panning and recovery of sight alignment after the shot.

I see no need to go into again as the challenges I have received have been from those who have shot stationary fixed targets on a controlled range. Apples and oranges.

Al

Al,

Much appreciated. A concise evaluation of how good the shooters needed to be (from someone with knowledge in this area) was what I was trying to obtain. (although the opinions expressed by others have also been helpful).

So despite the fact that the organisers made every effort to accomodate the shooters, the shooters were required to be among the very best in their field. Probably obvious in light of the importance of their job, but I was curious about this aspect of the assassination. Thanks again.

Might I recommend: ayoob@attglobal.net

Or else search: Massad Ayoob

or else: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/biblio.html

Ayoob, Massad

The Ayoob Files - The JFK Assassination: A Shooter's Eye View

in: American Handgunner, March/April 1993

Gun experts examine a number of issues related to Oswald's MC rifle, his shooting skill, ballistics, and the reaction of Kennedy to the shots. The single-assassin theory is found to be well within the limits of plausibility.

Perhaps Mr. Simkin will approach Massad and see if he will discuss the accuracy; integrity; capability; reliability; operating speed; etc; of the Carcano Rifle.

Then again, Mr. Massad Ayoob may just tell everyone to read and review what he wrote for American Handgunner some 13 years ago.

Once again I am shaking my head at the likes of Mr. Purvis. In the fifteen or so odd years that I have been researching the JFK Assassination and the six or so years that I have been public with my research, I have found that the majority of my time has been spent wasted on the likes of Mr. Purvis and others who have deemed themselves worthy to interpret data and challenge those who have a background in such matters that are capable of intepreting data. The Mr. Purvis types will always find some prostitute to call an expert to drive their THEORY home while interpreting video and testimony to fit their THEORY when they have no clue as to what they are talking about as they have no background or hands-on experience to relate to what they are saying. I bring out issues such as how the MC had a considerable percentage of non-existent resistant trigger travel before the break, that would make this weapon a poor choice for a precision rifle. I also bring out that the weapon has a short stock and long bolt which would make target reaquisition extremely difficult. I also brought out how a heavy long bullet fired from a low level velocity cartridge would create considerable difficulty in adapting to elevation and changes in a moving target. These issues go on deaf ears when dealing with the Tom Purvis' of the research community because they cannot begin to understand what I am talking about. If one would take the time to study Craig Robert's recreation or look into Carlos Hathcock's interpretation of the likelihood of the official scenario, then this might come together. But what the hell does Roberts, Hathcock or I know beyond the expertise in weapons and certification and documentation of being a proven scout sniper?

An example of the prostitute to prove a point issue, lets take Mr. Ayoob since Mr. Purvis has used him here to prove his point. Masad Ayoob is a Reserve Police Officer who boasts of an extensive background in the Middle East and runs a shooting academy where he makes large sums of money from in-bread red-necked derelicts from both the civilian and LE market, that like Mr. Purvis believe what they read when they wished to believe it. Before one takes too much credibility from anything the likes of Ayoob says, I would recommend they ask someone from a military or LE firearms background on their take of Mr. Ayoob.

In 1991, my agency transitioned from a .357 magnum revolver to a semi-automatic pistol. I took part in a committiee to test various semi-autos on the market and we went unanimously with the Glock Model 22 which is a full sized handgun chambered for the .40S&W cartridge. by this time Glock had been on the American Market for about two years and had already grabbed onto roughly 40% of the LE market in semi-auto handguns. The FBI did a study and developed the 10mm which the .40S&W evolved from as it was just a cut down cartridge, lower velocity version of the 10mm. The FBI denounced the Glock and the .40S&W and armed their agents with the 10mm in two versions produced by S&W, which were stainless, large bulky framed handguns. (Shortly after my agency transitioned to the Glock, I was involved in a shooting where I was the first LE officer in the state of Iowa to shoot an individual with the Glock. I was successful in stopping the individual who was attacking me with a knife with a three shot placement to the pelvic girdle.)

In 1993, a cable network television news magazine came out with an hour long episode entitled, "GLock, a Dangerous Weapon". In this episode, they introduced the public to four lawsuites being filed against Glock where LE Officers supposedly were involved in wrongful (accidental) shootings. Ayoob followed the money in line with the FBI and took part in this news magazine and made the statement that "You cannot train LE officers to keep their finger off the trigger of the weapon under stress." The Glock has three internal safeties and no external safeties and many in the lawsuites were claiming that the weapon just went off. Ayoob is a prostitute but not an idiot so he took up the stance that the accidental shootings were the cause of impossible training to keep the officers fingers off the triggers until ready to shoot. He then put on a rediculous demonstration where he held a Glock pointed at a target with his finger on the trigger. He then struck his forearm in the region of the radial nerve and the gun went off. When one slowed down the video, they would see that the Glock fired before he struck his forearm. The point being, most competion with Glock at the time were the S&W second and third generation, the Beretta and Sig which had either an external safety on the lower receiver or the slide. He was saying that LE officer could be trained to manually manipulate the external safety under stress, but could not be trained to keep their finger off the trigger. Both are what is defined as fine muscle group obedience and either can only be mastered by the same repetative training. What the prostitute Ayoob failed to tell the news magazine either because of his ignorance or because of his alterior motives, is that officers who carried weapons with external safeties were in large part trained to disengage the safety before initial holstering, so that they did not have to deal with this issue under stress. Under stress of drawing and firing, the ten year standard at the time of this study showed that LE officers had 2.5 seconds from beginning to end of a LE gunfight. He also relayed the light trigger on the Glock when the Glock produced weapons with a standard 5lb trigger, NY#1 8lb trigger and NY#2 12lb trigger. A revolver double action trigger is in the range of 9-11lbs.

In 1998, the FBI, DEA and Boarder Patrol all began transitioning their agencies to the Glock .40S&W. The 10mm is a round of the past as the frame was too large for most officers and almost all female officers/agents and the recoil was difficult to say the least for most. Even S&W pistols chambered for .40S&W were too bulky and the trigger pull too difficult especially for multiple shot placement. Glock published their annual magazine that year with the FBI's article on going to their weapon. The following article was written by Massad Ayoob, backing the Glock weapon! Prostitute?

In conclusion, believe what you will and trust who you will. But please look a little deeper than what the wanna-bes are producing at face value. I do not have the time and strength to continue to argue with the Purvis' of the community. My silence is not a sign of defeat to their challenges, just a reluctance to continue to fight against their hollow challenges that they produce.

Al

Al;

'

Might I recommend that you return to your lap dog worship of the great Dangerous Dan Marvin, who you so completely checked out, (according to your own claim on Lancer).

You fully demonstrated you total lack of research capability in that single item.

LTC Dan Marvin SF Retired=====My Ass.

It is LTC Dan Marvin, Quartermaster Supply Corps, Retired.

Had you known anything, then you would have known that SF was not even a designated Career Branch for Officers until the failure (by my former Group Commander Kingston) of the helicopter raid in Iran.

After that, it was prudently determined that SF needed to be made as a career branch for officers in order that qualified officers planned such operations.

LTC Dan Marvin is not, and has never carried a commission as a Combat Arms Officer, and other than his sixth months as A-Team Commander of a primarily involved Civic Action Team, his entire time spent in SF was as the S-4/Supply Officer.

Had you further bothered to check out Marvin's claims, you would have also found that he does not know xxxx from shinola as regards HALO insertion, as well as virtually nothing in regards to his insinuated knowledge of the SADM device.

I seem to have recalled having long ago mentioned your lack of credentials such as attendence at the FBI Ballistics School to demonstrate all of these great qualifications which you present, your comments were basically that the FBI was more or less a group of incompetents.

Well, if recalled, I presented to those on Lancer, as well as here, the name and credentials of MR. James Looney, Firearms and Toolmark Examineer for the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation, & a graduate of the FBI Firearms schooling.

Mr. Looney's comments to me many years ago still stand: "I could do what you have already done, but the answer would be the same."

Last time that I checked, Mr. Looney was still a member of the AFTE (Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners).

Perhaps you will be good enough to show us your membership in this professional organization.

This is supposed to be an "Education Forum" which hopefully places some emphasis on acadamic education and qualifications, as well as hands on experience.

And as stated before, when I want the advice of someone, I seek out, what by all known standards, are EXPERTS on the subject matter.

Other than your "Range Officer" experiece, or whatever, I have seen little to date that even demonstrates that you know anything other than what is available to virtually any "wannabee" who desires to surf the internet and/or read up on a bunch of book and thereafter attempt to make as if one has great experiences based on this.

I have no doubts that you have done considerable shooting at your training range.

But then again, I can come up with a few young dove hunters around here that have probably easily matched in numbers the exact amount of shooting that you have done on some range.

If the persons who read this forum want Experts, then they should go to the likes of Massad Ayoob, and others who are fully recognized EXPERTS in their fields.

My work was long ago, (most certainly long before you came onto the scene) reviewed by a variety of ballistics experts who carry the positions; the training; and the education to make the determinations as to what and what does not represent fact.

In addition to that, it has been reviewed by a considerable number of Medical Doctors, which include wounds ballistics personnel from the US Army as well as Civillian Doctors and Medical Examiners.

That you are so ignorant of the ballistic facts as relates to the back wound of JFK is another prime example of your total lack of or incapability of adequate research.

Why don't you post here for all to see, all of the forensic data which claims that it is normal for a 2,000 to 2,200 fps bullet to carry fibers from the clothing into the wound of entry.

Why don't you post here for all to see, exactly how it is that a bullet which is fired on a downward angle and by all known standards should create a wound that is greater in vertical dimension than in horizontal dimension has suddenly created an entry wound that now, not only matches in exact dimensions the deformed base of CE399 (4mm X 7mm), but also happens to have the larger dimension running horizontal as opposed to vertical, in direct contradiction to all known "norm" standards for such type wounds.

Why don't you post here all of the conversations which you have had with FBI Agents Frazier; Gallagher; Heilman; Heiberger;, as well as alll of the discussions which you have had with anyone associated with the autopsy of JFK.

How about your personal discussions with some of the SS Agents present?? I know for a fact that I spoke with Clint Hill long ago, and just the other day came across the notes of when I spoke with SS Agent Winston Lawson on 10/15/90.

Come on Big Al, tell us about all of your accomplishments in resolving the JFK Assassination.

Done anything to demonstrate how phony the WC re-enactment was?

Done anything to present any of the WC Survey data to show how they altered evidence?

Done anything to find out about the Time/Life Survey??? US Secret Survey & Re-enactment??? FBI Survey and Re-enactment?

Exactly what is it that you have done other than PARROT the same ole bull xxxx from the Oliver Stone Movie and you famous "CANYON SHOOT" scenario.

Is this your basis for conducting research?? What, you watched JFK 13 times???????????

Any damned idiot can repeat what David Ferrie (in the movie stated).

Since the evidence is obvioiusly far beyond your comprehension, you have had to fall back on some mythological multiple assassin scenario, and thereafter based on your apparant ineptness with the Carcano rifle, claim that the work had to be the work of "Experts".

Masaad Ayoob managed to do pretty well with the Carcano in the alloted WC 5.8/5.9 second given time.

Now, why don't you email this internationally recognized expert and tell him that he does not know what he is talking about.

And while you are at it,be certain to inform him that he now has about another 2.3 seconds of shooting time to add into this three shot scenario, and then ask him exactly how difficult was the task.

Difficult for you perhaps, but not for about any average shooter.

So, send the data of: Shot----5.8/5.9 seecond delay to second shot-----2.3 second delay to third shot for a total elapsed shooting time of 8.8 to 8.9 seconds, to all of those you desire.

In event that you find something difficult about this, then you are in trouble.

I think that my young son did almost this good years ago when we took one of my 6.5mm 91/38's up to the river for some testing.

All of your great ballistic qualifications and training, and yet you were so ignorant of the facts that you did not know that the portion of the copper jacket to CE399 which normally covers most of the base of the bullet was not present on the bullet?????

Hell, I recognized that immediately, the first time that I ever saw a photo of the bullet base, and I most assuredly do not claim to be some ballistics expert.

For your information AL, I am, not unlike Gerry Hemming, a relatively old HAS BEEN.

Unlike those "Wannabee" such as yourself who most assuredly have added continual confusion to the JFK assassination scenario by their complete lack of evidentiary research coupled with their lack of understanding of everything from covert operations to obviously how deadly and accurate the 6.5mm 91/38 Carcano rifle, coupled with good ammo can be.

JFK was assassinated by three shots which were fired from the sixth floor window of the TSDB, and since these shots were all fired from the 91/38 Carcano recovered at the scene, it is highly unlikely that there were two assassins that took turns shooting.

Although, with the 5.8 to 5.9 second delay between the first shot and the head shot at Z313, even this is conceiveable.

That you are apparently too ignorant to comprehend the complexities of the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical facts, does not makes for multiple assassins any more than it does for body kidnappers and wound alteration specialist.

The 6.5 Carcano utilized in the assassination was tested by the US Army and found to be as accurate as our own military issue weapons.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SIMMONS. I am the Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Laboratory of the Department of the Army.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And when the final truth be known, it is completely and totally irrelevant as to what either you, I, Gerry Hemming, or for that matter anyone else "THINKS".

It is what the actually quite simple: Forensic; Ballistic; Pathological; & Physical facts tell us that will ultimately place the assassination and the shot sequence in it's proper order and proper perspective.

Of course, it always helps when one has the witness testimony which clearly demonstrates that Z313 was not the last/final/third shot fired in the assassination.

Obviously, you are still searching for your "Peer's" in the "Peer Review" work which you once claimed to be engaged.

Why not take up hanging out at reruns of Oliver Stone's "JFK". I am certain that you can hock your qualifications there to the unsuspecting.

P.S. I will locate and post a few of the souveniers taken from dead NVA, as well as a few surveillance photo's from some location down in Central/South America.

Certainly not like shooting apples and oranges, but considerably more real than shooting at targets of some range fire/qualification range.

I would likewise expect that you will provide us with all of your experiences as well as information relative to exercises other than "range fire".

In/around March/April 1968, I was laying alongside Highway#1 close to the An Khe pass, at night, with a starlight scope, looking for NVA sappers who were planting mines in the highway.

What were you doing??? Wearing diapers???