Shooter, Radioman, Spotter

[Lee Forman]

Lee,

The objects seen in the Nix film are not as close to the shelter as they appear. For instance, the RR car is clear across the RR yard even though it looks to be near the fence. Also, seeing how Moorman's photo falls in the same time sequence that Nix was filming and Mary's photo shows no car next to the shelter from where she stood ... no car is that close to the shelter in the Nix film.

Bill

Guess I disagree. However, again, I admit to having placed the car incorrectly. Also, I failed to take the Moorman comparison photo from the exact Moorman location. On the GIF, I also estimated the location. For both positions I was using Roberdeau's plat.

I think the car was very close to where I parked the rental.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

One more comparison. If the difference is perspective is corrected, then I assume that the Shooter / Spotter should be located somewhere in the area of the red box.

[Bill Miller]

One more comparison. If the difference is perspective is corrected, then I assume that the Shooter / Spotter should be located somewhere in the area of the red box.

There is no one at the location you speak of. The sunspots on the shelter wall can be seen long after the shooting in both the Nix and Bell films.

Moorman's photo shows the top of the steps leading into the shelter doorway. Unless someone backed a 'matchbox' car up to the shelter wall, a normal sized car would stand tall enough to have been easily seen in Moorman's photo. There is no car seen next to the shelter wall in Moorman's photo.

Bill Miller

[Mark Knight]

the man who may have been standing on the running board of the '56 Pontiac, who was stabilizing his position by leaning on the roof of the vehicle.

American cars built after 1940 didn't have running boards. In fact, it was a common gag in comedies in the 1940's for police and others to attempt to climb onto the now-nonexistent running boards in order to engage in a pursuit, shouting, "FOLLOW THAT CAR!!!" as they fell to the ground.

Exceptions are purpose-built cars, such as the "Queen Mary," which had running boards ADDED for use by Secret Service agents. And pickup trucks continued to have running boards until the late 1950's, with stepside pickups still retaining a step that resembled a running board long after that point.

But a 1956 Pontiac with running boards would've stood out like a psychedelic paint job in 1963.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Mark Knight

[Lee Forman]

One more comparison. If the difference is perspective is corrected, then I assume that the Shooter / Spotter should be located somewhere in the area of the red box.

There is no one at the location you speak of. The sunspots on the shelter wall can be seen long after the shooting in both the Nix and Bell films.

Moorman's photo shows the top of the steps leading into the shelter doorway. Unless someone backed a 'matchbox' car up to the shelter wall, a normal sized car would stand tall enough to have been easily seen in Moorman's photo. There is no car seen next to the shelter wall in Moorman's photo.

Bill Miller

Not interested in sunspots - the area you have circled in yellow matches the area of the red box. Nix was at a higher elevation than Moorman.

For Location #2.

I screwed up again - apparently Zapruder took his first few frames from the pedestal - I took it from the base, assuming that he was afraid to stand up there without Sitzman's assistance. Guess not.

Anyway - you can see that there is a car in the location behind the Pergola shelter number 4. Brennan claimed that they removed all the vehicles from the Elm St extension prior to the arrival of the motorcade, and set up saw horses, etc. He was intrigued by the fact that a 55 - 57 Olds Station Wagon was permitted to remain in position on the extension when he was 'looking around' -- parked at an odd angle, and that a DPD officer would chat friendly with the driver of the vehicle and allow him to remain.

Assuming Brennan is incorrect, and that the vehicle was a 1959 olds Station Wagon is more interesting. In that case, of the minimum of the 2 vehicles seen on the Elm St extension [Weigman, Croft, Zapruder, Bronson], I think it's a fair assumption that they would have been among the vehicles witnessed by Bowers - a black Ford [closer to the shelter] and a 1959 Olds Station Wagon. They arrived sometime prior to the motorcade, but were not in position early that morning - as in the case of the positions taken in Lee Vida Whatley's normal parking space and the one next to it.

Quoting from Ian Griggs:

In his book Eyewitness to History, co-authored with J. Edward Cherryholmes, (1) however, he described a mysterious sighting a few minutes before the motorcade reached his location in Dealey Plaza. On page 8, after describing how he had seen a man acting suspiciously in a sixth floor window of the TSBD, he stated: “At that time there was a side entrance towards the rear of the building on Houston Street. At some point during the morning hours, the police had sealed off parking in that block and forced all cars to move. Saw horses were placed on Elm and Houston to block traffic. As I looked around I saw a lone car parked beside the Book Depository with a white male seated behind the wheel. The car was an Oldsmobile, a 1955-57 model. It is difficult to tell the exact year unless one is an expert because all those years looked nearly alike. I remember wondering why all the other cars had been made to move and this one had not. I didn’t have the chance to study the driver carefully but he was wearing civilian clothes and appeared to be middle aged.”

This detailed description of the car and its driver unfortunately omitted one significant fact. Brennan failed to indicate the car’s colour.

Brennan’s narrative continued: “One thing that interested me about the car was the way it was parked. The front left wheel was pulled sharply away from the curb and the driver had the door partially open. Later I wondered if the reason for this was so the car could make a quick U-turn in a speedy departure. As I was watching the man in the car I saw a policeman who was on foot walk over towards the car and begin talking to the man in a friendly, laughing manner. So far as I could see, there was no attempt to get the man to move the car and after chatting for a minute or so, the policeman walked back to his post. It was this fact that made me think the police should have made some report about the presence of the car, but I have never seen any other account of this ‘mystery car.’”

The next few pages of Brennan’s book (which was not published until 1987, four years after his death) described in detail his experience as the motorcade passed him and President Kennedy and Governor Connally were struck down by gunfire. He approached a policeman and informed him that the marksman was in the book depository building and they both ran to the front of that building.

In his book (page 16) Brennan then continued: “The car I had seen PARKED there before the motorcade passed WAS GONE. Although only a few moments had elapsed and all exits were blocked except one, the car had disappeared. The policeman who had been talking to the driver was gone, but I assumed he was looking for the gunman.”

Brennan then repeated his sighting of the car, the way it was parked, the policeman talking with the driver and the paramount question in his mind: “Who was the man sitting behind the wheel that day?”

Bowers original statement - grey haired, middle-aged man driving the '59 Olds.

[Lee Forman]

One more comparison. If the difference is perspective is corrected, then I assume that the Shooter / Spotter should be located somewhere in the area of the red box.

There is no one at the location you speak of. The sunspots on the shelter wall can be seen long after the shooting in both the Nix and Bell films.

Moorman's photo shows the top of the steps leading into the shelter doorway. Unless someone backed a 'matchbox' car up to the shelter wall, a normal sized car would stand tall enough to have been easily seen in Moorman's photo. There is no car seen next to the shelter wall in Moorman's photo.

Bill Miller

Bill,

This is what it looks like if you park the vehicle further back. I initially popped the curb and ran the car up on the grass. From roughly the Moorman location, the car is not visible. From roughly the Nix position, the car is clearly visible - but does not look the same as we see it in Nix. It is much closer to the pergola shelter, and to be honest, I believe I even made an error in assuming that it would not have been visible by Sitzman. Another error.

Mark - thanks for the qualifier on the running board. Then I guess the guy simply stood next to the car, or on the inside with the door open, and used the roof to stabilize his arm. No clue.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Last comparison. This is with the car parked behind the pergola. I believe I should have been parked at a much different angle, and closer to Elm - visible to anyone standing on the Pedestal, if they had bothered to look in this direction.

Found once posted on the internet.

From: reverendmack@hotmail.com (Rev. Mack)

Date: Mon, Apr 5, 2004

There was a right-wing volunteer in the Daltex building

who administered the head shot.

If you have ever seen the Zapruder film that has been

computer-enhanced to eliminate the Zapruder shaking

camera, you will see that the same bullet that

blows up JFK's head also slams Connaly into the

back of the front seat.

If it came from the grassy knoll, it would have made

a split in JFK's head from right to left and then hit

Jackie.

As it was, the head was split from back to front

and a little high to the right, accounting for

that part of the head exploding. Large fragments must

have gone on to Connally.

People are confuse about Connally's motions. First he

is turning this way and that to see what the hell is

happening. Then his WIFE, Nellie, pulls him down from

the back, causing some facial expressions that others

say must have been bullet impacts. Not so. She pulls

him from behind, he's down, *then* his hit by the

Z313 bullet which has just passed through JFK from

behind, originating in the Daltex building.

Very likely a sophisticated rifle on a tripod was used.

Very likely the trigger man did not do it for a single

payment, but was actually a part of the insider power

structure which planned and carried out the killing.

It was a small group of people who did it originally,

but once done.....

It became a huge coverup by the many, for a many reasons.

Which leads many to conclude that the original conspiracy

was also huge. Not so. Texans did it. They were not all

professionals. It was a surprise to many others who

immediately or eventually went along or died.

Sure Reverend, I can see that - but with lot's of outside help.

Still unclear on the occiput shot. DalTex is interesting. One wonders where the good Reverend was getting his information from.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Hypothetical DalTex using Don Roberdeau's blank plat. The inset at top left is a lift from Stone's JFK. GPH managed to have Stone include the black individual for historical accuracy. GHP indicated to Tim Gratz that the spotter for this position was Nestor Izquierdo. Note how the film version does not follow the model. Nestor is acting as radio coordinator instead of spotter. If the theory holds up, I would assume we'd have 3 folks in this area. The inset at the bottom right is TimeLife's z313 - which appears to have blood travelling in a direction that would not correspond to the Postal building - just my opinion, since I was asked.

Anyway - if we assume that the through-and-through hole was the result of a miss fired from the DalTex, it's an interesting trajectory. If Reverend Mack is correct, then the 'Rightwing Volunteer' could have also been responsible for the occiput. Or this could have been another radio coordinated burst, which may have included a simultaneous shot coming from Location #1 at the North Peristyle - the shot Rosemary Willis claimed that was fired over her shoulder.

I have heard that a DalTex occiput at z313 would not have been feasible, due to the proximity of the Queen Mary and the dedicated SS men standing 'Ready' to protect the President on the running boards. I wouldn't be able to say one way or another without seeing a true recreation. Elm has a tremendous pitch and curve to it. One could imagine a professional shooter being a bit upset about blowing the first opportunity.

Don't know why I threw this one in. Guess because I still can't figure what Location Number One might have been responsible for by way of the trajectories and wounds. If Location One is associated with JFCOTT, then were they going for Connally, and missed and hit the chrome around the windsheild?

- lee

[Bill Miller]

Not interested in sunspots - the area you have circled in yellow matches the area of the red box. Nix was at a higher elevation than Moorman.

LET REMIND YOU WHAT YOU WROTE, "I assume that the Shooter / Spotter should be located somewhere in the area of the red box." I don't care at what elevation Nix was - if Moorman cannot see a spotter/shooter, then he cannot see her ... and more impartly he cannot see the lower elevated Kennedy.

I did an overlay showing the location of your red boxes on the better images I shared with you. Your shooter/spotter is nothing more than sunspots on a wall.

Bill Miller

[Lee Forman]

Not interested in sunspots - the area you have circled in yellow matches the area of the red box. Nix was at a higher elevation than Moorman.

LET REMIND YOU WHAT YOU WROTE, "I assume that the Shooter / Spotter should be located somewhere in the area of the red box." I don't care at what elevation Nix was - if Moorman cannot see a spotter/shooter, then he cannot see her ... and more impartly he cannot see the lower elevated Kennedy.

I did an overlay showing the location of your red boxes on the better images I shared with you. Your shooter/spotter is nothing more than sunspots on a wall.

Bill Miller

Recall my words earlier that you found incredible - it's my opinion that the Moorman was altered. If you have a high resolution copy of the version that was broadcast within 30 minutes, I would be interested in seeing it.

Also, if you have reviewed the thread and the photos I presented, I thought it was clear that there would have only been 2 windows of opportunity for a shooter in that location - Moorman would never have seen this individual - the retaining wall would have blocked her view. The official record denies a throat wound. It also denies a shot to the side of the head. So why bother arguing with someone who refuses to recognize the official record?

But since you are a JFK Researcher / Investigator - perhaps you might be able to answer a question:

Did Josef Lipski come into the US as part of Project Paperclip? Any ideas on specifics? Family, etc? Where he may have resided in Dallas? Feelings towards Kennedy? Relationships? Employers?

Back to Nix - I am not even sure what we are dealing with here. But if I see the individual or inviduals plural, standing above the height of the vehicle from Orville's vantage point, I believe I should expect to see them in Moorman.

- lee

[Bill Miller]

Recall my words earlier that you found incredible - it's my opinion that the Moorman was altered. If you have a high resolution copy of the version that was broadcast within 30 minutes, I would be interested in seeing it.

Yeh, thats the solution to all you guys sloppy research when it comes to alteration - the images are altered. Your so called shooter/spotter is still seen on the wall in the Bell film long after the crowds have merged onto the walkway ... the reason - he is made up of sunspots on the wall.

If you want to see Moorman's photo - check with NBC for it was aired on their network. Also, see "JFK assassination - as it happened". The photo filled the screen. Now you won't be able to tell what color lipstick Sitzman had on, but you won't see a spotter/shooter at the shelter wall either.

Bill Miller

[Mark Stapleton]

Recall my words earlier that you found incredible - it's my opinion that the Moorman was altered. If you have a high resolution copy of the version that was broadcast within 30 minutes, I would be interested in seeing it.

Yeh, thats the solution to all you guys sloppy research when it comes to alteration - the images are altered. Your so called shooter/spotter is still seen on the wall in the Bell film long after the crowds have merged onto the walkway ... the reason - he is made up of sunspots on the wall.

If you want to see Moorman's photo - check with NBC for it was aired on their network. Also, see "JFK assassination - as it happened". The photo filled the screen. Now you won't be able to tell what color lipstick Sitzman had on, but you won't see a spotter/shooter at the shelter wall either.

Bill Miller

Bill, you can hardly call Lee's work on this thread "sloppy research". You should keep an open mind on the issue of photo alteration.

[Lee Forman]

Recall my words earlier that you found incredible - it's my opinion that the Moorman was altered. If you have a high resolution copy of the version that was broadcast within 30 minutes, I would be interested in seeing it.

Yeh, thats the solution to all you guys sloppy research when it comes to alteration - the images are altered. Your so called shooter/spotter is still seen on the wall in the Bell film long after the crowds have merged onto the walkway ... the reason - he is made up of sunspots on the wall.

If you want to see Moorman's photo - check with NBC for it was aired on their network. Also, see "JFK assassination - as it happened". The photo filled the screen. Now you won't be able to tell what color lipstick Sitzman had on, but you won't see a spotter/shooter at the shelter wall either.

Bill Miller

Bill,

You didn't answer the questions - does that mean that you don't know the answers?

Did Josef Lipski come into the US as part of Project Paperclip? Any ideas on specifics? Family, etc? Where he may have resided in Dallas? Feelings towards Kennedy? Relationships? Employers?

- lee

[Bill Miller]

Bill, you can hardly call Lee's work on this thread "sloppy research". You should keep an open mind on the issue of photo alteration.

Mark, if someone opened their mind any more - their brains would fall out! Now you tell me when is it considered good research to merely draw names on a wall like 'spotter or radio man' and not consider that these alleged individuals are in the exact same position not only all the way through the shooting without so much as moving a muscle, but also still seen the same way minutes after the shooting.

Please tell me where you see a spotter or a radio man at the shelter wall in Moorman's photo?

A simple post asking when was the first time Moorman's photo was seen by the public would have gotten Lee the infromation pertaining to NBC zooming in on Mary's photo within 30 minutes of the assasssination and that by 3:30 P.M. it was broadcast across public television. But if you think that looking at sunspots on a wall and not even bothering to see if those same shapes were not there in later assassination films before claiming them to be people is a better approach, then so be it. However, I am willing to bet that rational thinking people would not agree with your definition of good research.

Bill Miller

Bill,

You didn't answer the questions - does that mean that you don't know the answers?

Did Josef Lipski come into the US as part of Project Paperclip? Any ideas on specifics? Family, etc? Where he may have resided in Dallas? Feelings towards Kennedy? Relationships? Employers?

- lee

Lee,

I have no interest in Lipski because his personal agenda has no bearing on the validity of the photographical record pertaining to the assassination IMO. In other words, Lipski's feelings toward Kennedy didn't cause Moorman's photo to somehow alter itself right there in Dealey Plaza.

Bill

Edited June 8, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Robin Unger]

Could the reason why the car seen below the "train windows" in Nix is so hard to make out, is that it is not ONE car , but a combination of cars.

Given the size of the train windows seen in Nix, this is my best guess as to where the so called nix car may have been located.

view of the carpark taken from a Bell chopper late in the afternoon on 22/11/63

Edited June 8, 2006 by Robin Unger