Shooter, Radioman, Spotter

[Jack White]

Car hijacking? I don't get it. This is a legitimate question.

Jack

[Bill Miller]

It seems that Jack and Bill have hijacked this excellent thread to carry on a long-standing dispute. Could you transfer these postings to another thread so that I can delete the irrelevant postings. Then maybe we can get back to looking at Lee's theory of what happened in Dealey Plaza.

John, I think it was in Post # 55 that Lee mentioned the pickup truck man on Commerce Street ... it wasn't until post #65 that Jack incorporated his Zfilm alteration claim into the mix by way of a blurred Zapruder film frame of the pickup truck. Maybe I should not have responsed to Jack at that point as to his using poorer images to make his silly claims with. It was not my intention to hijack anything, but rather to respond to post within this thread that I have knowledge of. If you wish to delete any of those post that you feel should not belong in this thread ... I am fine with it.

Bill

Edited May 26, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

And so did Hudson's white cap when Zapruder filmed it from behind.

You are assuming that was Hudson. In your opinion that was Hudson.

Lee, getting back to how colors look on film when in shadow or silhouette ... I think we are all on the same page now about it being Hudson seen theough the pyracantha bush in the Zapruder film ... that he wore a white/light colored cap as shown in the assassination images and that because Hudson was standing taller than the dark haired man as the limo passed below him ... it has to be Hudson seen on the Zapruder film. Have said this, I think you can now see the connection between the jacket seen on the man who ran across Commerce Street and the guy seen standing near the pickup truck. Let me know if I can asist you with any more images or comparisons.

Bill

[Robin Unger]

And so did Hudson's white cap when Zapruder filmed it from behind.

You are assuming that was Hudson. In your opinion that was Hudson.

Lee, getting back to how colors look on film when in shadow or silhouette ... I think we are all on the same page now about it being Hudson seen theough the pyracantha bush in the Zapruder film ... that he wore a white/light colored cap as shown in the assassination images and that because Hudson was standing taller than the dark haired man as the limo passed below him ... it has to be Hudson seen on the Zapruder film. Have said this, I think you can now see the connection between the jacket seen on the man who ran across Commerce Street and the guy seen standing near the pickup truck. Let me know if I can asist you with any more images or comparisons.

Bill

Are there any known photo's available of Hudson taken after the 22/11/63 i would like to get a good look at his face. ?

[Bill Miller]

Are there any known photo's available of Hudson taken after the 22/11/63 i would like to get a good look at his face. ?

You might check with Gary Mack because if Hudson worked for the city ... they may have had pictures of their employees. In Groden's book showing the Towner photo enlargement - Hudson is seen with thick white bushy hair, which is what his son (William) had told me about his fathers appearence at the time of the assassination. The man in the RR yard image had on a black hat and what looked like a jacket that was longer than the one Hudson had on that day. That's the problem with B&W photos because the guy in the RR yard could have had on yellow, or tan, or pink, or light green, or light blue pants and the color would look merely light on the photo to the observer.

Bill

[Lee Forman]

For Location Number 2...

I learned today that sometime last year, 'Carmichael's,' a large salvage yeard outside of Mound, Minnesota - the closest to Mound, in Excelsior, Minnesota, was totally destroyed. All of the inventory was crushed, and the site is now home to a housing development. Distressing. I did try some 12 other salvage yards within something like a 25 mile radius, without success. Chances seem slim at this point that is survived 'progress.'

That having been said, we'll see what $50 can buy at GM Heritage. Maybe I will get the result I expect?

It's an interesting concept that some of the 'Out-of-State' plates witnessed by folks during the assassination could simply be dummies that were swapped out for the day - maybe to create a false positive trail. Maybe this $50 will clinch that.

As per 2 of the vehicles seen by Bowers. Out-of-State plate, first car the same State as the third car seen. White background. No Letters, only numbers. That narrows it down considerably for 1963 to 6 possibles - I ranked them in order of interest:

North Dakota - 123-456

Montana - 12-3456

Maine - 123-456

Tennessee - 12-3456

Rhode Island - 12-345

Virginia - 1234-567

Rhode Island, Tennessee and Virginia also had variations with a Letter included, as well as All Numeric. Thanks to JL for that bit of info.

I need to enquire of Jim Conners whether his Mother remembers the color of the out-of-State plates parked in the Sherriff's lot that morning.

A vehicle manufactured by Oldsmobile in Texas could wind up in Virginia, and then back in Texas - sure. But I don't like the odds.

VIN breakdown for Oldsmobile

1-2 Year

3 Series 0 = F-85 Standard (30 Series)1 = F-85 Deluxe (31 Series)2 = Dynamic 88 (32 Series)5 = Super 88 (35 Series)6 = Starfire (36 Series)8 = Ninety-Eight (38 Series)9 = Ninety-Eight (39 Series)

4 Assembly Plant M = Lansing, MI A = Atlanta, GAK = Kansas City, KS L = Linden, NJ C = Southgate, CA W = Wilmington, DE T = Arlington, TX

5-9 Assembly Number

- lee

[Lee Forman]

$2,000.00 to anyone that is willing to ANONYMOUSLY provide me with a previously unpublished photo, or unaltered photo of the operation. I can send it by wire, bank check, PayPal, etc. I guarantee anonymity - I only desire to post it here. email me at lforman23@comcast.net if you are interested.

$5,000.00 for a film.

Sorry - unless I can find someone to bankroll me, it's the best I can offer.

Starting to believe I made an error on Location Number 2. I am starting to think it was the same as Number 3. The shooter was in one of the cars located on the Elm St extension. Need to give that a bit more of a look. Thinking that the 59 Olds makes the most sense. Perhaps Howard Brennan was wrong in his attempt to gauge the year of the vehicle. Maybe that requires the suspension of disbelief.

- lee

[Bill Miller]

$2,000.00 to anyone that is willing to ANONYMOUSLY provide me with a previously unpublished photo, or unaltered photo of the operation. I can send it by wire, bank check, PayPal, etc. I guarantee anonymity - I only desire to post it here. email me at lforman23@comcast.net if you are interested.

$5,000.00 for a film.

I don't think you have to worry about paying out on that offer.

Bill

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

I would very much appreciate your input on this next one.

- lee

Lee,

I will be glad to offer you any help I can. I don't come in as often as I used to

but message me if you need any help.

Best regards,

Eugene

[Lee Forman]

More on Location #3.

To recap. The morning of 11/22/63, Lee Vida Whatley was less than pleased to find a large, 4 door, off-white sedan, with out-of-state plates parked in her space in the lot behind the TSBD. Beside it was another car she did not recognize. These were assigned spaces, and belonged to the Sheriff's office.

Jim Hicks, after having been thrown out a 6th floor window, testified at the Clay Shaw trial that there was a '56 Pontiac, off-white, which had 'backed up to the fence.' There was a man seated in the trunk with what appeared to be a pipe in his hands.

The AARB testimony of Steve Osborne has an undisclosed source informing him that indeed, a camera operation was in place in Dealey Plaza, which had come up from Killeen, Texas - Fort Hood.

Zapruder's testimony in the Warren Report has the 'shots' - plural, as having come from behind him.

Marilyn Sitzman in her Joseiah Thompson interview does not recall having seen a car.

Loran Hall received a 16mm Bolex camera with telephoto lens, as well as a 30-06 Johnson, from Hathcock in September. He also stole a Savage .22 with scope from GPH.

Weberman Nodule:

They had with them a set of golf clubs, and a 30-06 Johnson semi-automatic with a Bushnell, variable powered scope. Hathcock loaned them $100 - $50 on each item and it was his understanding that they were to pick up the articles as soon as possible. Hathcock only saw JERRY PATRICK once after that and that was approximately one week later when he came to his office.

Several months ago, since the men did not retrieve the articles, Hathcock sold the golf clubs. On September 18, 1963, Lorenzo Hall came in with $50 and retrieved the rifle. Shortly thereafter Hathcock received a telephone call from JERRY PATRICK, who was then residing at 2450 N.W. North River Drive, Miami, Florida, inquiring as to whether Hathcock still had the rife. Hathcock told him he had given the rifle to Hall for $50 and this seemed to irritate PATRICK to some extent. Since then Hathcock has sent the receipt he received from Hall for the $50 to PATRICK to convince him he had returned the rifle.

On the day Hall retrieved the rifle, he sold him a Bolex Motion Picture Camera with telephoto lens which was then the property of Hathcock. Hall paid by two checks - one drawn on the Citizen's Bank on the account of the Committee to Free Cuba in the amount of $350 and another in the amount of $150 on the account of a resident of La Habra. Hathcock gave Hall back $100.

And they questioned Henry Wade, "what organization did he belong to," or something. And if I recall, I think Henry Wade answered, "Free Cuba." And I corrected Henry Wade, because listening to the radio or KLIF, it stood out in my mind that it was "Fair Play Cuba." There was a difference. So he said, "Oh yes, Fair Play Cuba," and he corrected that.

JERRY PATRICK 2450 N.W. North River Drive, Apartment K. As instructed by Det. Sgt. Sapp I met above Subject at 201 S.W. 21st Court Apt. #2. Subject stated that one man, Loran Hall, stole two rifles from his apartment last night. One rifle being a Jungle Carbine #R5841; the other being a Savage 22 rifle with a scope. Hall was seen as he left the Subject's apartment carrying two rifles. Recently, in California, Loran Hall stole a Johnson 30-06 rifle from this Subject. Hall is staying with Cuban Manuel Aguilar at 829 S.W. 9th Ave, 373-3829.

HEMMING told this researcher: "Hall bullxxxxted Hathcock that he was going to deliver it to me." Loran Hall, weary of constant harassment from various Federal Agents, returned to Los Angeles on November 10, 1963, and retired from the anti-Castro struggle.

I find that last statement to be absurd personally.

In the Nix film we see a man who may be standing on the running board of a vehicle, backed up in a position along Pergola Shelter number 3. We don't see this vehicle in Moorman, which always led me to speculate that perhaps the vehicle was spurious. Something can also be seen in the Bell film in this location, but it's difficult to make out.

As per the 1959 Oldsmobile - it is my distinct impression that local vehicles were used by the operation, with a simple tag switch. Local Texas plates were exchanged for the same out-of-state plate [probably Virginia], which would create a smoke screen to point towards Langley and the CIA. The defense perhaps is why anyone would be stupid enough to leave such a trail - or why anyone would have driven a car from Virginia to Texas.

For the 1956 Pontiac, I believe as opposed to having a shooter displayed in plain site - what we are instead viewing in the Nix film is a Spotter / Recorder. The shooter in question, as theorized, would have been in the trunk, which during the arrival of the motorcade, would be partly closed. Theorizing again that this would have been carefully surveyed prior to 11/22. As to the shots I had theorized that may have come from this location - shots plural as per Zapruder - 2 possible shots:

1. Throat shot - botched possibly, as per Hicks, who maintained that a shot had struck one of the roadsigns [associated with, but not the Stemmons sign]. Small caliber entry which has always puzzled many.

2. The side shot to the head, as per the .22 round lodged behind Kennedy's ear, the furrows in the grass directly across from the stairs, the forward/back/left movement of Kennedy, the interesting attempt to 'dub' in the cleaned-up dictabelt and introduce the audio into the z-footage [riceandpeas.com]

So the most facinating piece to this location is perhaps the location, aside from the method deployed, which I believe may have also been used in a similar fashion for Location #2 - the opposite side of the Pergola.

From this vantage point, I was able to determine that a shooter in the trunk of this vehicle would only have 2 windows of opportunity - and interestingly enough, they appeared to correlate well with the 2 shots I had assumed were from this location, using a .22 caliber rifle. Beyond that even - once the throat shot had been fired, the Lincoln would have been temporarily out-of-view with the Stemmons Sign. Since the SS did such a good job of ensuring that no official record would be made by the Press - literally screwing them with the flatbed truck, forcing the line-up so that the press was far behind the Lincoln, etc., the only record available was made by some private citizens, wishing to see the President. So as per Vince Palamara's new book - Survivor's Guilt - we can only assume duplicity on the part of some of the Palace Guards - like Emory Roberts, for example. So from the vantage point of the Queen Mary, and for the honest SS in the car, the open trunk and shooter would be all but invisible behind the retaining wall, and all that would be visible would be a man who appeared to be holding a camera of some kind.

One more quick word on the cameras. If Steve Osborne had it right, and I am strongly inclined to believe the account he provided, then there was supression of the normal record which would have accompanied a Presidential motorcade, and instead, a covert record made - using a new technology, and a wireless interface. The interesting part about that, in addition to betraying the location of some of the shooters, is that the wireless interface would mean that the cameras were nothing other than dumb units. Even if something had gone wrong and had the Fort Hood guys been arrested, there would be no record of anything in the cameras they held. One more observation for folks that may not understand technology and development of communications - primarily, communications have been developed, created, improved, etc. first for Military applications. I'm sure there is a book written on the subject someplace. Even Osborne checked to see if such a technology existed in 1963, and was satisfied that it did.

On the so-called 'other film' seen by several folks. I had the chance to ask some of them questions about the location of the camera. The comparison to the Zapruder film placed it 'a bit lower and a bit more to the right.' It was also higher quality, and without jiggle. It seems a fair guess that the film that these folks saw was the one taken by the man who may have been standing on the running board of the '56 Pontiac, who was stabilizing his position by leaning on the roof of the vehicle. For fun, let's say maybe he is Loran Hall. His shooter is dark complected, so we'll assume perhaps he is Emilio Santana.

So - I wasn't able to get a 1956 Pontiac, so I tried to adapt using a beige SUV for height. I pulled in behind the pergola, but I failed to perfectly match the angle I wanted. I am still unsure as to whether these guys backed in from the area at the end of the picket fence, or from the area behind the pergola. Either way, it is interesting that they would have had to have arrived early to secure access to the position - as per the incident with Lee Vida Whatley. You can see from the position of the pedestal that the vehicle would have hardly have been visible from that location. A shot from this location for the throat would have had to have passed directly behind Sitzman's feet.

Recap - Probably not an out-of-state vehicle, but a license plate swap-out on a Texas vehicle. As per Jim Hicks, a 1956 Pontiac sedan, off-white in color. Parked early the morning of 11/22/63 to ensure access to location. Window for 2 shots - high on Elm, and directly across from the stairs. Shooter hidden in trunk of vehicle, with camoflauge of Spotter / Recorder in plain sight. .22 caliber rifle with scope. Rightwing and Cubans. Accounted for 2 hits - throat and side of head.

First three photos simply demonstrate my attempt to place the vehicle. I believe I did not capture the position correctly, but close enough for horseshoes.

Next photos demonstrate the shooter's vantage point.

Animated Gif for a comparison of Moorman and Nix of the vehicle.

If you'd like to tell me privately that I am right or all wet, feel free to anonymously write me at lforman23@comcast.net - otherwise all feedback welcomed as usual.

More on Location 2 shortly.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Lee Forman]

Shooter windows.

[Lee Forman]

GIF - comparison of Vehicle location in Moorman and Nix.

[Lee Forman]

Willis5 crop of location - NOT enhanced. Throat shot.

[Lee Forman]

Thanks to Don Roberdeau for allowing me to make use of his blank Plat. Trajectories associated with Locations #3 and #4. Worth noting is that the Stemmons Sign idea isn't working well with this theory. If we theorize that the call for shots on the throat were synchronized by radio, perhaps we can make a guess as to where a miffed shot would have come from that struck the sign and failed to hit the target. Perhaps that is the answer to this dilemma.

[Bill Miller]

Lee,

The objects seen in the Nix film are not as close to the shelter as they appear. For instance, the RR car is clear across the RR yard even though it looks to be near the fence. Also, seeing how Moorman's photo falls in the same time sequence that Nix was filming and Mary's photo shows no car next to the shelter from where she stood ... no car is that close to the shelter in the Nix film.

Bill