Shooter, Radioman, Spotter

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

Amazing and convincing stuff, Lee!

Where do you get the photographs, Lee?

I see photos in your posts that I have never

seen before anywhere!

Great work!

You know,Lee the only reason I visit this forum

is to read and download your excellent work!

Keep it coming, Lee!

Excellent research!

EBC

Edited June 5, 2006 by Eugene B. Connolly

[Lee Forman]

Amazing and convincing stuff, Lee!

Where do you get the photographs, Lee?

I see photos in your posts that I have never

seen before anywhere!

Great work!

You know,Lee the only reason I visit this forum

is to read and download your excellent work!

Keep it comong, Lee!

Excellent research!

EBC

Thanks very much Eugene!

I got the photos from a variety of sources - emails from folks, magazine and book scans, eBay purchases and the internet. I have learned that the closer you can get to an original, the higher the quality result - depending upon what it is that you are looking to do of course.

I would very much appreciate your input on this next one. It is the reason I started this thread. Location Number 3. I am facinated by it, and I believe that I may have figured it out. The trajectories I was hoping to establish are not working out, however, which is a bit frustrating...

More on this one shortly!

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Location Number 3 - Behind Pergola Shelter Number 3

Before I kick this one off, thought I'd start with one I was wondering about today. '56 Pontiac? Pontiac had many different models in 1956 - Star Chief, Safari, and Chieftain appear to be the primary models - but there also appears to be a standard 2dr / 4dr model. I haven't been able to find a full list.

Is this a 1956 Pontiac? It certainly appears so, however, the model I have used for comparison has a different slope to the fender - which means it wouldn't be the Star Chief, Safari or Chieftain.

- lee

Edited May 18, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Lee Forman]

Lot's of assumptions and speculation...

Okay - Here it is. I think a fundamental error has been made in terms of what Nix captured on his film. Tim Carroll helped me to understand that there would be a dramatic difference in the perspective - based upon the position of Mary Moorman and her Polaroid, and Orville Nix, across the plaza - as relates to the vehicle we see on the knoll. Same applies for Bell. I made sure to visit the area and take a photo, which I can post here someplace, but essentially, there is sufficient room for a car to have backed in here.

If we go to what Jim Hicks testified - it's a '56 Pontiac, off-white, with the shooter kneeling in the trunk, backed up 'to the fence' - note that the picketfence begins there. Here's the theoretical part - why would we assume that the trunk would not have been partially closed, just prior to and during the arrival of the motorcade? Compare this concept to the recent Washington DC area sniper - the guy is in the trunk, with the trunk raised just enough to give him a small window. That way, he's mostly concealed. The man we see in Nix, known as the 'Nix Classic Gunman' - is nothing of the sort. He is the Spotter / Recorder - and a decoy. Logical says a shooter would not have been standing out in broad daylight in that position - however, someone simply appearing to be filming - it's benign - and ingenious.

Needs work - but feels solid. A bit of enhancement effort is required - not much to work with. it would be better to have real 8mm stock to work from - but one drawback is that I don't know if Nix captured this area during any of the shooting. Also, in terms of establishing movement - the shooter would have been fixed with his crosshairs on the target. Thanks to Robin Unger for the high quality frame I used. And thanks to Tim Carroll for demonstrating the possibility of there having been a vehicle parked in that location - which would have been hidden from view by Zapruder and Sitzman.

Another comment - there is a thread concerning the so-called 'other' film. It's my belief that there are multiple films which have not seen the light of day - however, the film in question would have been taken from roughly Zapruder's position - but not. Allegedly, since I have not seen it, I have learned that it is smooth, with none of the jiggle associated with Zapruder's film. It is a higher quality - perhaps 16mm. If the man we see in Nix is using something like a Bolex 16mm camera and steadying himself on the side of a '56 Pontiac, that would work well for such a film. I am still unsure as to whether or not this would be a spotter, recorder, or both. I assume that the Fort Hood camera operation would have positioned themselves close to the various shooting locations - but that is sheer speculation. I assume that this guy at the car, if indeed he is what I think he is - is not associated with the Fort Hood Camera Operation.

An interesting coincidence...

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules/nodule13.htm

On September 18, 1963, Lorenzo Hall came in with $50 and retrieved the rifle....

On the day Hall retrieved the rifle, he sold him a Bolex Motion Picture Camera with telephoto lens which was then the property of Hathcock. Hall paid by two checks - one drawn on the Citizen's Bank on the account of the Committee to Free Cuba in the amount of $350 and another in the amount of $150 on the account of a resident of La Habra. Hathcock gave Hall back $100.

Date November 1, 1963.

JERRY PATRICK 2450 N.W. North River Drive, Apartment K. As instructed by Det. Sgt. Sapp I met above Subject at 201 S.W. 21st Court Apt. #2. Subject stated that one man, Loran Hall, stole two rifles from his apartment last night. One rifle being a Jungle Carbine #R5841; the other being a Savage 22 rifle with a scope. Hall was seen as he left the Subject's apartment carrying two rifles. Recently, in California, Loran Hall stole a Johnson 30-06 rifle from this Subject. Hall is staying with Cuban Manuel Aguilar at 829 S.W. 9th Ave, 373-3829.

I made the assumption that the rifle used from this position was a .22. I assumed that it may have been responsible for 2 shots - the throat shot, and the one that was responsible for the .22 lodged behind Kennedy's ear - which would have been the possible sideshot to Kennedy's head that came after z313.

www.riceandpeas.com - the dictabelt recording dubbed into the z-footage - the day the dream died.

The trajectory for the throat shot does not seem too work well unfortunately. I was assuming that this round may have clipped the Route 77 sign, on the edge of the Stemmons Freeway sign, and then went on to strike Kennedy in the throat. However, I suppose it's feasible - and perhaps GKS and the man in the trunk fired simultaneously with radio coordination, and GKS only hit the sign - which as per Jim Hicks, was removed by a combination of one man in a Policeman's uniform, and 2 that were not - in a DPD car.

There was a sign, a caution sign, alongside the road that was hit, at least I believe it was hit, because the shot came over my head and I think they hit the sign. Anyway, the Dallas Police Department car, people I assume to be because one of them was in uniform and the other two weren't, took the sign down there I don't know anything more about the sign

If you believe Gordon Arnold [Cop with dirty fingernails], or Bud Culligan [the operation had the use of 2 squad cars], or the Badgeman image, etc - that sounds logical. Also as mentioned previously, Hal Rubinsteins supplied the DPD with their uniforms - an interesting connection maybe.

And I believe Mr. Zapruder was correct - for the shots he heard.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, you can't tell when something is in line it could come from anywhere, but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right in the head--I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from here and it could come from there.

Mr. LIEBELER - All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - From the direction behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes, actually--I couldn't say what I thought at the moment, where they came from--after the impact of the tragedy was really what I saw and I started and I said--yelling, "They've killed him"--I assumed that they came from there, because as the police started running back of me, it looked like it came from the back of me.

There is still a problem with the throat shot - however. Small caliber entry - works. Kennedy turned to his right - works. Obscure image of gunman at base of pedestal as seen in Willis? Maybe. If it works, this shooter would have had to have fired past Sitzman and Zapruder's ankles. And if this is the shooter in Willis5, where is the Spotter / Recorder?

Many issues still remain. A work in progress - but at a minimum, I think one shooting position was from the trunk of a '56 Pontiac, which would have had to back up over a railroad tie and into this area to get into position. I would then assume that the radioman would be in the trunk as well, or driving the vehicle.

Attached is an enhanced crop of the area of the trunk, Don Roberdeau's plat which I have edited to detail the possible tandem shots from Location #3 and Location #4, and a slightly enhanced crop from Willis5, taken of the area of the pedestal.

[Lee Forman]

It would be most helpful if we could get a '56 Pontiac backed in there and take photos from the Moorman, Nix and Bell locations for a comparison.

The enhancements aren't coming out all that well - but not bad given that this is generation x of an 8mm frame.

Thanks again to Robin Unger for his help.

One more view, plus a close-up view of the area of interest taken from behind the Pergola in the parking area this year.

A. Well, the one kneeling in the car looked to be - I would think Spanish, Dallas has a lot of Spanish people.

Q. Do you mean Cuban?

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Moorman - I am assuming the guy on the stairs is part of the camera operation. He is not partnered with a shooter, he is in plain sight, and there is a strong reflection from his lens. I am thinking that this would also make sense for at least one of the individuals behind the retaining wall as well.

A lot of guesswork really. I no longer have the interview from the individual on the Press Buss that saw a man running up the stairs with a camera like no other he had ever seen, ducking as if he was being shot at. I probably recorded that here someplace on the Forum. The name Roberts comes to mind. Found it:

Charles Roberts observation from the Press Bus as related to a man with a camera ["but don't ask me what kind of camera"] hurrying away up the stairs with his head ducked down as if he were being fired upon.

How about a video camera, which would have been quite a novelty in 1963?

Edited May 18, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Lee Forman]

Jesus - thought I would get some kind of reaction to that - the real question of course is whether that was trade craft for 1963.

Location Number 4 - Behind the Picket Fence at the Tree

Anyway - here is the standard view - behind the fence, shooter, radioman, spotter - that's what it appears to be anyway - in the Moorman polaroid. Location Number 4- behind the picket fence. Thanks to Craig Lamson for the hgih quality drumscan, and as I have independently validated Robin Unger's finding, it's of great interest. And Kudos go to Robin Unger - without him I wouldn't have seen it - so he gets credit, as far as I am concerned. I have since reviewed the same area in multiple high quality Moorman shots, and it seems consistent IMO.

Moorman Crop - enlarged and slightly enhanced. This would be the front temple shot. Maybe a miss to the Stemmons sign.

Sorry James Files - this man obviously had more experience than you - so what's the real story? Alone behind the fence? Doesn't look that way.

I'd say English wasn't his first language, as per the Ed Hoffman account. He tossed the weapon to his breakdown man, who may not be pictured here - then returned to this position - only to be confronted possibly by Joe Marshall Smith. Since he didn't know English too well, he shrugged and demonstrated that he did not have a weapon. Sheer bravado. Maybe Corsican, as per Steve Rivele's research.

- lee

[Antti Hynonen]

Lee, do you have the entire photo from post #20?

The one where you have the spotter and shooter marked?

Looks interesting. I'm wondering if you could post that photo in it's entirety, or e.-mail it to me. I can PM you my e-mail.

Thanks.

Antti

[Lee Forman]

Lee, do you have the entire photo from post #20?

The one where you have the spotter and shooter marked?

Looks interesting. I'm wondering if you could post that photo in it's entirety, or e.-mail it to me. I can PM you my e-mail.

Thanks.

Antti

Hello Antti - Send me your email address and I can email you the png, with thanks to Robin Unger.

- lee

I have been thinking a bit more about this - still all speculation of course, but it occurs to me that it is the strangest coincidence....

This military communications group had several cameras stationed around the Plaza....Each videotape position had a single person responsible for its proper operation....Each position these men occupied was shielded from the others so that they could only see the preview for their individual camera. Each man saw the assassination occur from a different perspective of their monitors.

Now Osborne's account is strictly hearsay - even though I personally find it very believable. It may also help to explain the account of the individual [name escapes] who claimed to have witnessed the assassination on closed circuit in the lobby - I think of the IBM building? Can't find the reference and not important.

The guys who I believe are part of the Camera Operation - they are positioned by themselves as per Osborne - that's what I believe we see. The part that gets me is that they seem aligned with trajectories for the shooters - this is most obvious in the Moorman polaroid [attached]. They also appear to have been concealed / removed from the record, IMO, which is also telling [the man on the stairs in particular, who is not readily visible in Nix or Muchmore]. If Steve Osborne's contact could be found, I would like to ask a few questions:

1. How was each individual assigned to the location they took up in the plaza? How many total operatives?

2. Did anyone photograph the incident with the bus rounding these folks up afterwards?

3. Any idea where these records may be found today?

4. Where were the other recorders? Was there one on the 4th floor of the TSBD? Was there one in the doorway? Was there one further down towards the underpass...on the underpass, or behind the fence?

5. Was the 'Clean' van the receiver of the transmitted signal?

6. Did any of the shooters have a combined weapon / recording device [bray]?

A bit more on Location 3 - the incident of Lee Vida Whatley, as relayed by her son, Jim Conner. I showed Jim a few photos of the parking area. He is confused, since the arrangement of the cars does not appear to be normal - particularly the cars seen in the background in the area behind the pergola shelter #3. Also, the car that was parked in his Mother's normal parking space had an out-of-state plate [she doesn't recall which state], as did the neighboring car - another one that she did not recognize, and described as a gold colored station wagon.

Her regular parking space was: from the southwest corner of TSBD, about 5 or 6 spaces west of the corner of the building. This space was also used by Sheriff's Dept. and all had assigned spaces. For this reason, anyone parking in a space assigned to someone else usually got some reaction.

I have asked Mother many times about this incident (she is now 87 years old) and her story never varies. She can't remember what happened yesterday, but her long term memory remains good. Her name then was Lee Whatley. She has never described the car as anything but a large 4 door sedan, creme or beige color. Chevrolet made a large Impala 4 door and I think that was what it was.

Is it possible that it was a an off-white '56 Pontiac? Was the gold colored station wagon a Rambler?

If we consider the number of cars that didn't belong or were suspicious - just in the parking area [including the Oldsmobile on the Elm St extension] - it's an impressive frequency. There is also the Chevy SS and Roger Craig's account, as well as the Rambler, etc. Bowers 3 cars don't seem to match any of these other descriptions - and Ms Whatley as she was known at the time, was arriving in the morning when the incident occurred with 2 cars already being parked there.

Mr. BALL - Did you notice any cars around there?

Mr. BOWERS - Yes; there were three cars that came in during the time from around noon until the time of the shooting.

Mr. BALL - Came in where?

Mr. BOWERS - They came into the vicinity of the tower, which was at the extension of Elm Street, which runs in front of the School Depository, 'and which there is no way out. It is not a through street to anywhere.

Mr. BALL - There is parking area behind the School Depository, between that building and your tower?

Mr. BOWERS - Two or three railroad tracks and a small amount of parking area for the employees.

Mr. BALL - And the first came along that you noticed about what time of day?

Mr. BOWERS - I do not recall the exact time, but I believe this was approximately 12:10, wouldn't be too far off.

Mr. BALL - And the car you noticed, when you noticed the car, where was it?

Mr. BOWERS - The car proceeded in front of the School Depository down across 2 or 3 tracks and circled the area in front of the tower, and to the west of the tower, and, as if he was searching for a way out, or was checking the area, and then proceeded back through the only way he could, the same outlet he came into.

Mr. BALL - The place where Elm dead ends?

Mr. BOWERS - That's right. Back in front of the School Depository was the only way he could get out. And I lost sight of him, I couldn't watch him.

Mr. BALL - What was the description of that car?

Mr. BOWERS - The first car was a 1959 Oldsmobile, blue and white station wagon with out-of-State license.

Mr. BALL - Do you know what State?

Mr. BOWERS - No; I do not. I would know it, I could identify it, I think, if I looked at a list.

Mr. BALL - And, it had something else, some bumper stickers?

Mr. BOWERS - Had a bumper sticker, one of which was a Goldwater sticker, and the other of which was of some scenic location, I think.

Mr. BALL - And, did you see another car?

Mr. BOWERS - Yes, some 15 minutes or so after this, at approximately 12 o'clock, 20 to 12--I guess 12:20 would be close to it, little time differential there--but there was another car which was a 1957 black Ford, with one male in it that seemed to have a mike or telephone or something that gave the appearance of that at least.

Mr. BALL - How could you tell that?

Mr. BOWERS - He was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and he was driving with the other, and gave that appearance. He was very close to the tower. I could see him as he proceeded around the area.

Mr. BALL - What kind of license did that have?

Mr. BOWERS - Had a Texas license.

Mr. BALL - What did it do as it came into the area, from what street?

Mr. BOWERS - Came in from the extension of Elm Street in front of the School Depository.

Mr. BALL - Did you see it leave?

Mr. BOWERS - Yes; after 3 or 4 minutes cruising around the area it departed the same way. He did probe a little further into the area than the first car.

Mr. BALL - Did you see another car?

Mr. BOWERS - Third car, which entered the area, which was some seven or nine minutes before the shooting, I believe was a 1961 or 1962 Chevrolet, four-door Impala, white, showed signs of being on the road. It was muddy up to the windows, bore a similar out-of-state license to the first car I observed, occupied also by one white male.

Mr. BALL - What did it do?

Mr. BOWERS - He spent a little more time in the area. He tried-he circled the area and probed one spot right at the tower in an attempt to get and was forced to back out some considerable distance, and slowly cruised down back towards the front of the School Depository Building.

Mr. BALL - Then did he leave?

Mr. BOWERS - The last I saw of him he was pausing just about in--just above the assassination site.

Mr. BALL - Did the car park, or continue on or did you notice?

Mr. BOWERS - Whether it continued on at that very moment or whether it pulled up only a short distance, I couldn't tell. I was busy.

Mr. BALL - How long was this before the President's car passed there?

Mr. BOWERS - This last car? About 8 minutes.

More speculation. As per the car seen in the background of the Croft photo [attached], maybe behind a camera operative - perhaps a similar modus operandi was used for this Location #2, which is why it is next to impossible to find something that would resemble a team assembled in this area. Or of course I am all wet. Is it possible that the Ford seen by Bowers ended up parking on the Extension? Or the Olds Station Wagon? Were there 2 Olds Station Wagons - a 1959 and a 1957? Is that the Rambler Station wagon in the background - seen by Carr? Or the 1955 - 1957 [1959?] Oldsmobile Station Wagon seen by Brennan?

At that time there was a side entrance towards the rear of the building on Houston Street. At some point during the morning hours, the police had sealed off parking in that block and forced all cars to move. Saw horses were placed on Elm and Houston to block traffic. As I looked around I saw a lone car parked beside the Book Depository with a white male seated behind the wheel. The car was an Oldsmobile, a 1955-57 model. It is difficult to tell the exact year unless one is an expert because all those years looked nearly alike. I remember wondering why all the other cars had been made to move and this one had not. I didn’t have the chance to study the driver carefully but he was wearing civilian clothes and appeared to be middle aged.

One thing that interested me about the car was the way it was parked. The front left wheel was pulled sharply away from the curb and the driver had the door partially open. Later I wondered if the reason for this was so the car could make a quick U-turn in a speedy departure. As I was watching the man in the car I saw a policeman who was on foot walk over towards the car and begin talking to the man in a friendly, laughing manner. So far as I could see, there was no attempt to get the man to move the car and after chatting for a minute or so, the policeman walked back to his post. It was this fact that made me think the police should have made some report about the presence of the car, but I have never seen any other account of this ‘mystery car.’

The car I had seen PARKED there before the motorcade passed WAS GONE. Although only a few moments had elapsed and all exits were blocked except one, the car had disappeared. The policeman who had been talking to the driver was gone, but I assumed he was looking for the gunman.

Is it possible that the car seen by Brennan was used in the same way as the one seen by Hicks?

Just thinking aloud. If the Rambler seen by Carr remained there until it took on passengers, but the Olds had the driver sitting in the car, and it vanished directly after the shooting - well, that's intriguing.

- lee

Edited May 19, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Lee Forman]

Robin - thanks!!!

It would appear that Elsie Dorman stopped filming, and then picked up again well after shots had been fired? So the area in Dorman at the North Peristyle would NOT correspond to the movement seen in the bushes in the Zapruder film, at the time the motorcade was passing by. So then - what is so interesting about that corner?

I still wonder...'They're shooting the President from the bushes!' Which bushes?

- lee

This doesn't seem to help.

[Robin Unger]

[Robin Unger]

In this Cabluck Crop, the train windows can clearly be seen, i beleive this is the same train as seen in THE NIX Frames.

Edited May 20, 2006 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

I like this one Lee.

[Bill Miller]

This is very interesting to me. Thanks for your time and effort on this theory.

One thing in the film and photos (where you put your boxes for us to follow along) that stands out to me. It appears in the video that just to the right of the image of the shooter (definitely movement there), there is also movement, which appears to be directly in sync with the movement of the limo.

At least that is what I see.

I believe Doorman passed over this area from above the scene and no one was at the location of the boxes, thus the movement was from something else, such as the illusion of movement caused by the camera lens moving or by the wind that was blowing at the time.

Bill

[Bill Miller]

It would be most helpful if we could get a '56 Pontiac backed in there and take photos from the Moorman, Nix and Bell locations for a comparison.

The enhancements aren't coming out all that well - but not bad given that this is generation x of an 8mm frame.

Thanks again to Robin Unger for his help.

One more view, plus a close-up view of the area of interest taken from behind the Pergola in the parking area this year.

A. Well, the one kneeling in the car looked to be - I would think Spanish, Dallas has a lot of Spanish people.

Q. Do you mean Cuban?

- lee

The yellow boxed area showing the south shelters outside wall in post #20 is not a shooter/spotter. Those same lights and shadows referenced in the Nix film can still be seen at that location in the Bell film after the limo has left the Plaza. The view of that area can be seen from photos like Bezters, Willis and Moorman's. I have attached a view from Moorman's and all that is seen is shadows from the tree foliage hitting the shelter wall.

Bill

The top of a tree can be seen just over the wall in Moorman's photograph. In a good print there is a spacing of the foliage in the top of the tree, thus the red box outlining this area in post #24 showing a poorer quality print cannot be a spotter/shooter.

Edited May 21, 2006 by Bill Miller