Shooter, Radioman, Spotter

[Bill Miller]

Given the size of the train windows seen in Nix, this is my best guess as to where the so called nix car may have been located.

Robin, you have made a good observation that others may pay attention to IMO. I touched on this earlier by pointing out how the Nix camera made things appear closer to the fence than they really were, but I think it fell on deaf ears.

Bill

Edited June 8, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Lee Forman]

Could the reason why the car seen below the "train windows" in Nix is so hard to make out, is that it is not ONE car , but a combination of cars.

Given the size of the train windows seen in Nix, this is my best guess as to where the so called nix car may have been located.

view of the carpark taken from a Bell chopper late in the afternoon on 22/11/63

Hi Robin.

This photo is taken much later, when the lot is practically empty. Also, based upon the difference in elevation - I don't think it's possible. That is one reason why I did the experiment to begin with. If I had a 56 Pontiac and someone to work with with a walkie or cell phone, I could probably figure out the exact alignment.

Not all that important to go to such lengths however. I'm okay myself with the job I did.

And maybe worth mentioning is the RB Cutler and Sprague have a shot from this precise location. Groden is also convinced that the throat shot came from the knoll [north side of Elm].

One other observation, aside from this enlarged area of a high res Moorman scan I did, are the dynamics we see in Nix - the DPD motorcycle cops appear to be facinated with Bill's sunspots. Even backing off to stay out of the line of the glare.

Fall BACK John Ready!!! Trying to get yourself killed?!?

Edited June 8, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Bill Miller]

Groden is also convinced that the throat shot came from the knoll [north side of Elm].

Considering the throat wound was originally reported to be one of entrance ... Groden is correct in thinking it came from the knoll area. What you won't hear Groden say is that someone had a car parked right up against the walkway or that the Moorman photo was altered.

One other observation, aside from this enlarged area of a high res Moorman scan I did, are the dynamics we see in Nix - the DPD motorcycle cops appear to be facinated with Bill's sunspots. Even backing off to stay out of the line of the glare.

I think that a more unbiased and realistic description of what the cycle riders are doing is scanning the knoll from where they believe shots may have been fired from.

Bill Miller

[Lee Forman]

For anybody that may be interested...

The 1959 Oldsmobile Station Wagon seen by Lee Bowers and quite possibly by Howard Brennan is not as common as I had imagined. Only 7,015 produced in 1959, as compared to 399,095 Oldsmobiles produced that year = 1.7%.

The one seen by Bowers was built in Arlington, Texas. It was a locally owned vehicle. Since Bowers claims to have seen out-of-state plates - white, all numeric, in black, I think it's a safe bet that the plates were swapped specifically for the day of the operation, with a false trail pointing to Virginia [as the most likely of the possible States listed previously - Maine, Rhode Island, etc.] - possibly a false-false trail, which is amazing to think about. As always, I will speculate that the same applies to the other vehicles used in the operation - the 'Goldwater' stickers as an added touch for that false, or double false lead. Even if the vehicles were not local - say from Miami or New Orleans instead, they probably weren't carrying 'real' tags. I guess a case for that could also be made on the basis of the vehicle that was left in Dallas with the Georgia tag - even though it's my impression that the name of the owner in that case is too similar to one of the aliases used by one of the operatives to be a coincidence.

The other interesting piece about this particular vehicle is the option for the seat in the rear that folds down. The window in the rear could [extra cost option] be controlled electronically from inside the vehicle. Brennan may have confused the year with his '55-'57 - but the auto salvage yards I was calling knew that the '59 was unique - it apparently had different tail lights or something, which were different from the '58 or '60 model. From the front, it could easily be confused with a '58, but the '55 - '57 years only appear to have had a single headlight on either side, as opposed to 2 on each. I still feel that Brennan is making an error on the year, while Bowers is not. Brennan refers to the need for an expert to tell the years apart, Bowers doesn't even hesitate. The middle aged grey haired man driving is also consistent.

Have to root out all of the spyware that is plaguing me from this site - crashed pretty bad, again.

Hopefully we can get a firm match on the Olds wagon parked on the Elm St extension as being the 1959 model in question. This stuff applies also to the suspicious vehicles thread - so maybe I'll post a link to it sometime.

- lee

Edited June 9, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Mark Knight]

Lee, are you saying that you have the EXACT VIN of the Olds Wagon seen by Bowers? If so, how do you know CONCLUSIVELY and EXCLUSIVELY it's the same car, and not another similar car?

And if it's not CONCLUSIVELY and EXCLUSIVELY the same car, why are you ruling out the 11,298 other Series 88 [NOT "Super"] Olds Fiesta station wagons?

I'm concerned that the "chain of evidence" here might be as undocumented as that of CE 399.

[Lee Forman]

Howard Brennan says that the cars on the Elm St extension were all removed. Sawhorses were placed into position, blocking off access. So why do we see what appears to be three cars parked in this location? Is one of them the 59? Is the other the Black Ford? Where is the Rambler?

Maybe someone could remind me where the DPD bike cop goes when he breaks away from the head of the motorcade. Can't remember.

Top is a Weigman frame, bottom is Croft. You can see the Elm St extension in the background. Is there a better view of this area - during the assassination? Bronson

In terms of a shooter in this location, I had an interesting piece from Jim Phelps I wanted to share - again in relation to the crowd dynamics. I think he makes great observations. The Hesters are seated close to the Pergola shelter hut #4 - as seen in the early' Zapruder frames. The two young boys with the school jackets are standing on the sidewalk, close to the Stemmons sign. The Chisms are standing close to them, on the sidewalk. The Newmans are standing on the sidewalk. The shooting starts. The Newmans go prone. The Hesters run away from the area of the Pergola hut #4 - towards the middle. The two young boys run straight back to Hut number 4, stay there for a moment, then start towards Number 3, then end up at the underpass. The Chisms begin to run back towards Number 4, but then change direction, and run in the opposite direction.

Woodward - for fun, I drew some lines on Roberdeau's plat. If she was facing the Lincoln at the time of the shots, behind her a little to her right does not work for any traditional location. Would work for Newman's walled walkway area, however. This is a tough nut to crack. There just isn't much by way of a photographic record to work with.

Here's a shot of the Elm St Extension taken this week - looking towards the heart of the Plaza [Commerce in the distance] - not my best panoramic but it does provide a view.

Last shot is from the 'x' looking toward the walled walkway / Elm St extension.

- lee

[Blair Dobson]

quick question,

It occurs to me more and more, the question that connelly may have been shot to stop him from waving his "redneck cowboy hat / I.Q. Slicer " in front of kennedy for a front shot.

supposing this is the case, it would have had to have been decided quickly and by spotter/then radioman/then shooter.

because of the wound in his thigh, i suspect this may have come from the roof of the TSDB or an uppermost window opposite to where the snipers nest/lone nut/posner was right position was...(dealey plaza webcam perch as it is now known)

any thoughts on this?

I just find it hard as candy to think that the connally thigh shot came from a lateral direction and bounced down...

It would also occur to me if i were a shooter and knew not only the route but the "dinner seating arrangements" in advance, one would want connelly out of the picture pretty quickly, and from all accounts he was kinda disposable politically.

Perhaps the throat shot was meant for connelly?

Just a thought.

any thoughts would be appreciated

by the way, nice work in this thread everyone.

getting different views of the plaza for poeple who have never been there opens up a whole new way of looking at things.

most are used to 2D and the ten main pics from moorman, altgens etc..

when you see the scope of the plaza in terms of size etc, it makes one wonder why the warren ommision didnt give a better representation of it in the first place...

thanks again all..

Cheers

Dobson

Edited June 10, 2006 by Blair Dobson

[Bill Miller]

Maybe someone could remind me where the DPD bike cop goes when he breaks away from the head of the motorcade. Can't remember.

The overhanging tree foliage hid the north lane of traffic near the top of Elm Street. The cycle officer only appears to leave the motorcade, but in reality he has remained in his own lane of traffic and can soon be see gliding down through the tree foliage and into view..

Nice plaza pictures by the way.

Bill Miller

[Steven Tomlinson]

quick question,

It occurs to me more and more, the question that connelly may have been shot to stop him from waving his "redneck cowboy hat / I.Q. Slicer " in front of kennedy for a front shot.

supposing this is the case, it would have had to have been decided quickly and by spotter/then radioman/then shooter.

because of the wound in his thigh, i suspect this may have come from the roof of the TSDB or an uppermost window opposite to where the snipers nest/lone nut/posner was right position was...(dealey plaza webcam perch as it is now known)

any thoughts on this?

I just find it hard as candy to think that the connally thigh shot came from a lateral direction and bounced down...

It would also occur to me if i were a shooter and knew not only the route but the "dinner seating arrangements" in advance, one would want connelly out of the picture pretty quickly, and from all accounts he was kinda disposable politically.

Perhaps the throat shot was meant for connelly?

Just a thought.

any thoughts would be appreciated

by the way, nice work in this thread everyone.

getting different views of the plaza for poeple who have never been there opens up a whole new way of looking at things.

most are used to 2D and the ten main pics from moorman, altgens etc..

when you see the scope of the plaza in terms of size etc, it makes one wonder why the warren ommision didnt give a better representation of it in the first place...

thanks again all..

Cheers

Dobson

I have pondered for many years on the possibility that Connally was a target for one of the possibly independent teams. This team or possibily one of the other teams wasn't aware of everybody else. I remember reading about a man (French sounding name) in a Canadian airport who overheard I think David Ferrie, or was it in the Carousel Club?(punctuate at your leisure) trying to hire someone to shoot Connally because he wouldn't work with them(?) on...'something'. It doesn't make the overheard conversation true but Connally being a particular target would give it the right to airtime.

It is quite possible that only one team (or single gunman) was aware of everybody else, this team or person being logically most connected to the 'organisers', only to become involved if no successful (= probable death) headshot,

therefore probably shot from the middle to the end of the barrage out of perceived necessity.

It is not beyond reason that the Mafia, anti-Castro Cubans, Intelligence (therefore also Presidential protection) and the greedy ones' single gunman using others' spotters, were all there in the plaza.

Team 1,2,3 and 4 in possible shooting order. 3 knows about 2 and 1, and 4 knows about 3,2,and 1. Sadly, although they shouldn't have been there in the first place, 2 and 1 are at a disadvantage and will be evidentially connected if and when necessary.

Remember! It isn't necessary to assassinate a President...Just let it happen! Sadly this doesn't get rid of, "If you want a job doing properly, do it yourself." The former gives you deniability, the latter gives you more certainty, so bring about both!

Just jiggle it around a bit. If it's true then everyone's (within reason) right:

Who organised JFK's murder?

Mafia, Cubans, Intel, Far Right (The greedy ones). But not all together.

Who murdered/shot JFK and/or shot Connally?

Mafia, Cubans, Intel, Far Right.

Who intended to shoot Connally? ("They" didn't necessarily hit him)

I don't have an intuition.

ST

Edited June 10, 2006 by Steven Tomlinson

[Blair Dobson]

ST

um...thanks but that made very little sense in respect to my question. it made little sense at all.

cheers

Dobson

[Steven Tomlinson]

ST

um...thanks but that made very little sense in respect to my question. it made little sense at all.

cheers

Dobson

You did happen to mention the possibility of Connally being shot on the spur of the moment due to necessity. To take out the 'spur of the moment' idea doesn't seem unfair or highly off point as the same questions (location and who there) would remain and become more informative. But, to suggest that the highest level plotters/organisers (rules out Mafia or Cubans) organised or allowed it to happen, without the other separate or collective plotters' knowledge makes no sense, ignores the obvious advantages of, the others having no knowledge of your presence, and maybe not even having to shoot. It's more acceptable (to me) with only three teams with one of them shooting at Connally.

I do admit to crap, disorganised writing! Never been able to bring about and organise writing (why I rarely do it) to conspire like a thought.

But 'it', the words I typed denoting a possible reality, with a little perceptive licence(sic?), does/do make sense. As long as by 'make sense' leans toward 'reasonable' (able to be reasoned) and not 'necessarily probable'.

It's a good idea, but not necessarily the truth.

ST

[Blair Dobson]

my question isn't "why" connally got shot, it was "HOW".

By understanding "how" it more than fills in the "why".

I am more interested in where the shooters were rather than if they were Cubans , Catholics or Tim Gratz in Drag.

but you pointed something out I should clarify:

I don't think for one second that any of this was left to chance.... I'm suggesting that Connally and his stupid hat were already considered well before hand as was the route and the seating, thus my glib remark about "dinner seating arrangements">

Stephen, I don't want to sound cruel in any way but your posts are very hard to understand.

My syntax and grammar are at best NOT the best as I post late in the evening so '''' I'm not judging..

Welcome to the forum.

and thanks ....

Dobson

good thing connally didn't have a giant pooodle in the front seat with him........

Edited June 11, 2006 by Blair Dobson

[Jack White]

LBJ wanted his enemy Yarborough to sit in that seat in

case of a miss. He did not want his longtime friend

JBC in the line of fire. Connally was worried all morning

after LBJ failed to get Smilin' Ralph in the line of fire.

Jack

[Steven Tomlinson]

LBJ wanted his enemy Yarborough to sit in that seat in

case of a miss. He did not want his longtime friend

JBC in the line of fire. Connally was worried all morning

after LBJ failed to get Smilin' Ralph in the line of fire.

Jack

.....which 'could' and has been used to explain, "My God! They're gonna kill us ALL!" (As opposed to just "...the guy behind me")

It is though quite a natural progression from seeing the guy behind you shot, to you yourself being shot, to mentally question then verbally express the possibility of multiple intended or unintended victims.

Is there a most obvious example of Connally's expression of worry during the morning, that would imply foreknowledge? Something that separates itself from him just being generally worried because he's sat near to a supposed 'hated man in nut country'.

I doubt that he would have been aware of multiple gunmen (if any). It would be really dumb, to sit in a moving car and believe that multiple gunmen would all hit their target.

ST

Edited June 11, 2006 by Steven Tomlinson

[Bill Miller]

LBJ wanted his enemy Yarborough to sit in that seat in

case of a miss. He did not want his longtime friend

JBC in the line of fire. Connally was worried all morning

after LBJ failed to get Smilin' Ralph in the line of fire.

Jack

Where in God's name do you come up with this stuff? LBJ didn't want his good friend to be in the line of fire, but allowed it anyway ... give me a break! It was reported that JBJ wanted he and Kennedy to ride together on that trip, but JFK felt that it was Connally's state, so the two must ride in the same car. Now if LBJ wanted to ride with the President - it hardly seems that Johnson was thinking about gunfire.

Bill Miller