Clothing Examination--JFK's Shirt

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Couldn't find any photos of JFK in shirtsleeves from behind -- but this indicates a general fit for a tailored shirt.

Having looked at so many photo's, it is quite hard to recall what demonstrates what.

The "poolside" photo of JFK with his back brace on when he was in FL with Ambassador Earl Smith, if recalled correctly, is worth a review.

True -- also the photos of JFK without a shirt on at the beach might shed some light on the natural slope of his shoulders, full neck, etc. Been looking, can't find them.

[Bernice Moore]

Here are a few...

The one in the shirt was taken in Florida, Nov.15/63

B

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Here are a few...

The one in the shirt was taken in Florida, Nov.15/63

B

Certainly glad to see that others are helping out on this.

As recalled, there are some even better photo's out there somewhere.

Also, the "shirt" photo is excellent as it not only demonstrates that JFK did not have the "sloping" shoulders of most of us normal persons, but due to the overly developed nature of his trapezius it appears that even the shoulder seam of his shirt actually rode considerably more foreward than on most.

Hope you catch that John!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapezius_muscle

http://rphr.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/57/1/411

Biochemical and anatomical studies show that AAS do significantly influence muscle morphology and biochemistry in humans. Body weight reliably increases after AAS use and part of the increase is in lean body mass, although part also reflects retention of water (see recent review in Friedl, 2000). Muscle biopsies in weightlifters reported that both the number of muscle fibers and average fiber size in the trapezius muscle were greater in AAS users than nonusers (Doumit et al., 1996; Kadi et al., 1999a). Controlled studies show that both the number of muscle fibers and the size of individual fibers increase with AAS treatment in animal models

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200212/dallek-jfk/3

The Medical Ordeals of JFK

n the late 1930s the first clinical use of corticosteroids—which are compounds derived from adrenal extracts, and which have come to be used to reduce tissue inflammation—was made possible when doctors learned how to administer DOCA (desoxycorticosterone acetate) in the form of pellets implanted under the skin. It is now well established that Kennedy was treated with DOCA after his Addison's disease was diagnosed, in 1947. But it is possible that Jack was taking DOCA as early as 1937. Early that year, in a handwritten note to his father after a family vacation, Jack worried about getting a prescription filled in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where he was a freshman at Harvard College. "Ordering stuff here very [illegible word]," he wrote to his father. "I would be sure you get the prescription. Some of that stuff as it is very potent and he [Jack's doctor] seems to be keeping it pretty quiet." Given that corticosteroids had just become clinically viable and were being touted as a therapeutic cure-all, it is reasonable to hypothesize that the prescription Jack asked for was DOCA. Moreover, nine years later, in 1946, Paul Fay, one of Jack's friends, watched him implant a pellet in his leg. The way in which the medication was administered indicates it was DOCA. Fay remembers Jack's using "a little knife ... [to] just barely cut the surface of the skin, try not to get blood, and then get underneath and put this tablet underneath the skin, and then put a bandage over it." Then, he said, "hopefully this tablet would dissolve by the heat of the body and be absorbed by the bloodstream." In short, it appears that Jack was on steroids—still an experimental treatment, with great uncertainty as to dosage—for his colitis well before the Addison's disease diagnosis.

If so, he may have paid a high price. Physicians in the 1930s and 1940s did not realize what is common medical knowledge today—namely, that corticosteroids are effective in treating acute colitis but have deleterious long-term effects, including osteoporosis of lower-back bones and increased incidence of serious infection (owing to suppression of the body's immune system). Kennedy would suffer from all these problems, including outright degeneration of his lumbar spine. In addition, the long-term use of cortico-steroids suppresses normal adrenal function; it may have been the cause of Kennedy's Addison's disease. (Jack's sister Eunice also had Addison's, however, indicating that his disease may have had an inherited component.)

[John Dolva]

Agreed, the images are most helpful.

just a note on profile.

This photo is helpful in that it's of Kennedy sitting in a thin backed chair, Presumably fabric. So one can get a good idea of his sitting posture. I've rotated it to approximate him sitting in the limo seat.

Zooming in on the back of the neck. His head is tilted a bit back from the tailored position showing the coat and presumably the shirt under it causing a little bulge behind the neck. As the coat collar is double thickness and the shirt collar and tie adding thickness there.The white line is from subtracting these thicknesses and bulge to get the skin profile. Then the yellow line is the head tilted forward to smooth out the bulge. This may then be close to the pose at which the clothes were tailored.

Looking at the back on which some of the photos of Kennedy from the front wearing shirt and from the rear outline can be compared.

Edited January 22, 2007 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

John;

I believe that I informed you that I had also looked at the blood stain pattern.

Well, that also includes the lack thereof as well.

Never was much of one for those "ink-blot" tests, and never saw too many butterflies, etc;

However, I did learn how to make such impressions by folding something.

I have a "hunch" that we have a "bunch".

Or at least a fold!

And I am not even that good at finding butterflies!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_inkblot_test

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Butterfly or fold?

[John Dolva]

The shirt photo posted by Mark helps to see the amount of loose material one might expect.

On the WC backshirt photo down the bottom there is a crease that indicates the belt location. There is also a fold that shows in this instance the tail was not quite right.

An outline of a shirt being worn by Kennedy placed over the flattened out WC shirt photo indicates a few inches was available to account for the creases and folds between the belt and the top of the collar.

[John Dolva]

By moving around the shirt within the constraints of the collar and the belt this then helps give an idea of where within the outline the wound should be. (red circle)

[Robin Unger]

I think this photo looks similar to this Z-frame sitting position, of course the right shoulder and elbow are not raised as they are in the Z-film.

Edited January 22, 2007 by Robin Unger

[John Dolva]

(my) Preliminary findings.

Based on the many considerations outlined in this topic it seems to me that the shirt would DEFINITELY have to ride up in order to bring the hole in line with the classic wound.

On the other hand it seems that it would have to NOT ride up in order to bring it into line with the other candidate for the wound.

There is a set of 'print points' on the shirt and on the back within the small area of the back autopsy photo that can be confidently used that indicates that the classic wound lines up with the shirt hole.

Because of the many indications that the shirt was loose and COULD ride up and the many creases that have had to be straightened up and pulled apart in order to take the backshirt photos there seems little doubt that the shirt DID ride up to some extent.

This plus the pattern matchings makes my finding at this time to be that the classic wound is indeed the bullet hole.

What the small dark spot that is suggested as an alternative is, I don't know. Does a live back photo exist?

Edited January 22, 2007 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I think this photo looks similar to this Z-frame sitting position, of course the right shoulder and elbow are not raised as they are in the Z-film.

Fantastic Robin:

although this position matches almost exactly JFK AFTER the first shot impact and when he was reacting, it is nevertheless of considerable worth.

Certainly wish that I had seen this years ago when making my drawings as this is the closest thing to JFK's position at impact of the second/aka Z313 headshot that I have ever seen.

And of course, there is that ever so mysterious "bunch" again.

Seems to follow JFK virtually everywhere he goes.

Tom

P.S. You have some other photographs which need some extensive verification as well.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I think this photo looks similar to this Z-frame sitting position, of course the right shoulder and elbow are not raised as they are in the Z-film.

Fantastic Robin:

although this position matches almost exactly JFK AFTER the first shot impact and when he was reacting, it is nevertheless of considerable worth.

Certainly wish that I had seen this years ago when making my drawings as this is the closest thing to JFK's position at impact of the second/aka Z313 headshot that I have ever seen.

And of course, there is that ever so mysterious "bunch" again.

Seems to follow JFK virtually everywhere he goes.

Tom

P.S. You have some other photographs which need some extensive verification as well.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

(my) Preliminary findings.

Based on the many considerations outlined in this topic it seems to me that the shirt would DEFINITELY have to ride up in order to bring the hole in line with the classic wound.

On the other hand it seems that it would have to NOT ride up in order to bring it into line with the other candidate for the wound.

There is a set of 'print points' on the shirt and on the back within the small area of the back autopsy photo that can be confidently used that indicates that the classic wound lines up with the shirt hole.

Because of the many indications that the shirt was loose and COULD ride up and the many creases that have had to be straightened up and pulled apart in order to take the backshirt photos there seems little doubt that the shirt DID ride up to some extent.

This plus the pattern matchings makes my finding at this time to be that the classic wound is indeed the bullet hole.

What the small dark spot that is suggested as an alternative is, I don't know. Does a live back photo exist?

John;

Since you are not one to be easily misdirected by garbage, perhaps this preaching is primarily for those who do in fact see things that never were.

There is only ONE SINGLE bullet entrance hole in the back of JFK, and it is the one which you are working with; that is seen in every photo; had enlargments photo's taken during the autopsy, and was evaluated by every medical panel that has ever looked at and evaluated the autopsy materials.

Which of course also includes the statements and testimony of the autopsy surgeons.

That some here do not pursue the empirical method of evaluation of facts and evidence is nothing knew in this case. It has been around forever, to the extent that many who did no work and had no understanding of the factual evidence have accused the autopsy surgeons of being part of this "GIANT" conspiracy and also of reportably telling lies as regards to the facts of the autopsy.

So, we are therefore back to the same old problem as to whether or not one is willing to admit that the manipulations of the facts by Specter & Company exceed an individuals capabilities to resolve exactly what all that they did to obfuscate this relatively simple facts.-------As well as the WHY?

Exactly how many have stood up and admitted:

1. I am too dumb to understand this.

2. I lack the research capability to understand and resolve this.

3. These persons were smarter than am I now, or will ever be.

None that I am aware of!

Instead, we get:

1. I can not understand this because of the manner in which the big, bad, ole CIA confused it.

(note: one can include FBI/LBJ/ONI/etc; etc etc; until one sufficiently has excused their personal failings)

2. I can not understand this because there were multiple assassins and EVERYONE who has/had anything to do with this is a part of the GIANT conspiracy to confuse me.

3. I can not understand this because the body was kidnapped.

4. etc; etc; etc;

And thereafter to wonder exactly why the majority of the sane world considers "Conspiracy" researchers as being right up there in the top of the trees with all of the other squirrels.

When one makes what would appear as a deliberate attempt to divert attention from factual research, with absolutely no work other than "pin the shirt on Barbie", then, I personally must question the motives of injecting further confusion and garbage into the attempts by others to evaluate the evidence.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

(my) Preliminary findings.

Based on the many considerations outlined in this topic it seems to me that the shirt would DEFINITELY have to ride up in order to bring the hole in line with the classic wound.

On the other hand it seems that it would have to NOT ride up in order to bring it into line with the other candidate for the wound.

There is a set of 'print points' on the shirt and on the back within the small area of the back autopsy photo that can be confidently used that indicates that the classic wound lines up with the shirt hole.

Because of the many indications that the shirt was loose and COULD ride up and the many creases that have had to be straightened up and pulled apart in order to take the backshirt photos there seems little doubt that the shirt DID ride up to some extent.

This plus the pattern matchings makes my finding at this time to be that the classic wound is indeed the bullet hole.

What the small dark spot that is suggested as an alternative is, I don't know. Does a live back photo exist?

Based on the many considerations outlined in this topic it seems to me that the shirt would DEFINITELY have to ride up in order to bring the hole in line with the classic wound.

If one takes into consideration the "reverse" rorschach butterfly imprint/fold as well as the elongated area which runs across the back of the right shoulder, then it would, to most, become quite obvious that at the time that fresh blood was flowing down across the back of the shirt, that it had a complete fold at the area where the "butterfly" lack of blood stain occurred, as well as having what would appear to have been a full crease running from that point towards the right shoulder.

Blood, unlike children playing hopscotch, does not "jump" over items.

[John Dolva]

Tom, I think you're on the right track about creases being possible to identify. It seems to me that there are problems about this particular one. I'll explain later. Perhaps by just looking at it more carefully I'll find there is no problem.

Meanwhile, the small spot further down the back has a shadow on is right hand side but nothing to indicate an edge of a hole on the left. This indicates it's a mole or a dried drop of blood which protrudes.

The classic wound on the other hand has a shadow on the left edge and illuminated on the right. This indicates it's a depression.

An attempt at beginning to locate the hole in other photos with the back photo placed on a depth map