the 1963 Secret Service

[Chuck Robbins]

Emory Roberts memorandum of Nov. 22, 1963 is

very brief, terse and

generally unresponsive...and

his statement of a speed of 20-25 miles per hour is obviously false.

Let blame fall where it may, the officials under Secretary CD Dillon were suspiciously

inadequate to the prime mission of protecting the President under fire.

Shanet, do you know if Dillon had a brother and, if so, was he a Navy Pilot?

[Peter McGuire]

Bernice,

Great stuff you posted. Thanks!

I have never understood why so many bright, honest conspiracy believers have such a strong desire to pardon JFK's Secret Service detail for what, to many of us, seems a clear and obvious dereliction of duty. I don't think for a second that Bill Greer or Emory Roberts was one of the masterminds behind the plot to kill the president, but their actions that day were unusual enough to arouse anyone's suspicion. Secret Service agents are trained to follow orders. Since Greer and Roberts, at least, appear to have bypassed normal procedures on November 22, 1963, it is reasonable to suppose they had been given other orders prior to the assassination. When he waved agent Henry Rybka away from the limousine at Love Field, Roberts was exhibiting behavior that became extremely suspicious in light of what happened shortly afterwards. When he ordered agent John Ready to stay on the Secret Service car just as he was about to rush towards the limousine (actually do his job), Roberts exhibited even more curious behavior, which was instantly suspicious since agent Ready was attempting to react as trained to the sound of gunfire. Against all logic, Roberts stopped him from doing his job. As was shown by Bernice in her previous post, Roberts also lied in his report. In any real investigation, Roberts would have been grilled relentlessly by those conducting the inquiry. That goes for all the Secret Service agents, whose total lack of response was never criticized by anyone until citizen activists like Mark Lane, Harold Weisberg and Sylvia Meagher started writing books that questioned the official story.

As for Greer, I understand the idea that you don't drive into the line of fire. As Ron and others have pointed out, however, Greer never stated that he thought he WAS driving into the line of fire. If he actually thought that the shots were coming from behind him, it is inexcusable that he did not instantly hit the accelerator. I agree that his "advanced age" is a lame rationale here; I'm getting closer to 54 every day, and it seems younger to me all the time. Greer is important because, as the driver of the limousine, he was the one person in Dealey Plaza (other than perhaps Jackie) who could have almost certainly saved the president's life with quicker reflexes. The fact that we can all see him look back at JFK twice, while actually slowing the car down, just feeds the inescapable notion that he must have been ordered to slow down until JFK was mortally wounded. We can all understand how there might have been a few individual agents who failed to react as trained to the sound of gunfire, but ALL of them standing idly by, as some of them (including the actual driver) stared at him and must have obviously known he had been hit by gunfire, is incomprehensible unless they were told to.

I think that it is possible that the Secret Service was told ahead of time that a "mock" assassination attempt was going to happen in Dallas. Whether the rationale was to "teach JFK a lesson" about his the dangerous chances he was taking with his security, or something else, that is the only possible explanation, other than at least Roberts and Greer having advance notice of the assassination, for their curious actons and lack of response, imho. Just my two cents worth.

Very well put. I believe it is painfully obvious to anyone who looks at what happened around Kennedy in those few seconds. It is the true "smoking gun" , since we can see it with our own eyes. It also confirms the notion of official orders being given in the killing of President Kennedy.

[Bernice Moore]

Hi Peter..... Don:

Congratulations on your book, Don......much success..with all.

SSAIC :Emory Roberts lied not once but twice in his reports as well as covering up the drinking episode,

he stated the Queen Mary was 25 ft away from the President and also

stated they were going 20 to 25 miles an hour....

Rybka had just completed the SS course was young and sharp as a tack....also they were in charge of all

see previous post, evidence flow chart.....

....The President's SS agent who was his personal guard during the motorcade as was Hill

to protect Jackie, and I cannot

find his name right now, but am still looking, was also left behind at Love by Roberts....

One young and sharp and one directly appointed to take off and protect him...if needed....

The newspaper clipping is very old

and a poor copy, but it does make it clear, their knuckles were not even rapped....re the

drinking.epsisode.....

Makes one pause perhaps and think......

BREAKDOWN OF SECRET SERVICE HIERARCHY/ INFRASTRUCTURE

THE TOP TREASURY OFFICIALS:

1) C. DOUGLAS DILLON- Sec of the Treasury (former OSS) : on a Cabinet

plane bound for Japan via Hawaii with *

2) ASST. SEC. ROBERT A. WALLACE- with Rowley at a luncheon in D.C.;

denied dead agent reports;

3) ACTING SEC. G. d’ANDELOT BELIN- stepped in in Dillon’s absence

1963-1964 (related to David?);

4) [uNDERSEC. HENRY “JOE” H. FOWLER- replaced Dillon in Jan. 1965]

THE PRESS SECRETARIES:

1) *PRESS SECRETARY PIERRE SALINGER- code book missing from plane;

according to Pierre, only missed “two or three” trips (almost definitely

only one: Texas); extremely knowledgeable about motorcade planning/

security- worked with Secret Service on all prior advance work… except

for the Texas trip;

2) ASST. PRESS SEC. (#2) ANDREW HATCHER- in D.C. inactive (allegedly

because Hatcher was African-American, but a member of JFK's Secret

Service detail, Robert Faison, was also African-American and was with

President Kennedy throughout the Texas trip);

3) ASST. PRESS SEC. (#3) MALCOLM KILDUFF- first trip on his own:

official debut; essentially a non-player out of the loop;

THE CHIEF’S OFFICE:

1) CHIEF JAMES J. ROWLEY- with Wallace^;

2) DEPUTY CHIEF PAUL J. PATERNI- member of OSS during WWII- worked with

James Angleton and Ray Rocca (liaison to WC); involved in limousine

inspection with Boring, beating Rowley and Kellerman---and the FBI--- to

the punch (skull particles, bullet fragments, vehicle damage/

windshield); involved in LHO income tax check investigation right after

assassination; checked on CIA connections of suspects Mosley and Homer

Echevarria for the Chicago field office- matter was summarily dropped by

a call from headquarters telling the field office agents who spoke to

Paterni to send all memos, files, and notebooks to D.C. and not to

discuss the case with anyone!; Thomas Kelley- liaison to WC: assigned by

Paterni to go to Dallas and speak to LHO;

3) DEPUTY CHIEF EDWARD WILDY- totally out of the loop;..

THE TOP THREE AGENTS OF THE WHITE HOUSE DETAIL (THE SAIC’S OFFICE):

1) SAIC GERALD A. BEHN- in D.C. inactive: first full vacation in three

years under JFK;

2) ASAIC (#2) FLOYD M. BORING- in D.C. at home but IN CHARGE OF PLANNING

THE TEXAS TRIP [bishop, 1988 edition, p. 558; Truman Library Oral

History, p.63- on all the advance work…assigned to all the advance work;

JFK Library Oral History;interviews with Sam Kinney and Floyd Boring

1993-1994]; involved in limo inspection with Paterni, Trade Mart

decision, PRS checks, giving Lawson the Dallas assignment, etc.-

http://www.njmetronet.com/palamara/boring.html

3) ASAIC (#3) ROY H. KELLERMAN- First major trip on his own in a

supervisory capacity without either Behn OR Boring;

THE WHD ADVANCE AGENTS:

1) WINSTON G. LAWSON (LEAD CAR)- WHD advance agent (and former CIC

agent---still with the Former Intelligence Officers Association!): only

did advance work for a short time before Dallas;

2) DAVID B. GRANT (TRADE MART)- Lawson’s oft-forgotten partner from

11/13-11/22/63; physically joined Lawson in Dallas 11/18/63 from Florida

trip (manned by ASAIC Boring in place of Behn); Boring’s right hand man

for Chicago, Florida, and Texas advances;

THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE ADVANCE MEN:

1) JERRY BRUNO- CHIEF DNC ADVANCE MAN: early organizer but not in

Dallas---adamantly against Trade Mart/ choice of route (out of the

loop);

2) MARTY UNDERWOOD- DNC ADVANCE MAN for Houston and Austin---adamantly

against choice of route. Heard rumors of impending

assassination---received confirmation of plot from CIA Officer Win Scott

shortly after assassination (out of the loop)!;

3) JACK PUTERBAUGH- DNC ADVANCE MAN for Dallas: IN PILOT CAR WITH LT.

COL GEORGE WHITMEYER- taught Army Intelligence, not originally scheduled

to be in motorcade. As for Puterbaugh himself, he denied any involvement

in the Tade mart decision he was subsequently “blamed” for. He is often

blamed for the motorcade route change, as well…

THE SHIFT LEADERS OF THE WHD (SAIC ASSISTANTS):

1) ATSAIC EMORY P. ROBERTS – in command of FOLLOW-UP CAR in Dallas:

ordered agent Henry J. Rybka back from rear of limo at Love Field,

ordered agents not to move after first shot on Elm Street, recalled

agent John Ready during/ shortly after one of the (head) shots. Usurps

Kellerman’s authority at Parkland Hospital;

2) ATSAIC STEWART G. STOUT, JR.- stationed at the TRADE MART (out of the

loop);

3) ATSAIC ARTHUR L. GODFREY- stationed in AUSTIN (also out of the loop);

THE V.P./ LBJ DETAIL:

1) SAIC OF LBJ DETAIL H. STUART KNIGHT- in D.C. inactive- transfer to

become effective 11/25/63 (out of the loop);

2) ASAIC (#2) RUFUS W. YOUNGBLOOD- LBJ’s car: listens to walkie-talkie

w/ LBJ---both Dave Powers & Ralph Yarborough denied that Youngblood ever

vaulted over the seat the way LBJ claimed;

MISC.:

1) PRS AGENT GLENN A. BENNETT- temporarily assigned to WHD: why did he

ride in the follow-up car (he was an administrator)---to monitor threat

subjects?-

http://www.mindcushion.com/jfk/anatomythreat.html

2) WILLIAM R. GREER- LIMO: slows limo, looks back at JFK twice, disobeys

Kellerman, etc.;

3) JOHN D. READY- neutralized by Roberts;

4) CLINTON J. HILL (ASSIGNED TO JACKIE)- disobeys Boring and Roberts by

riding on rear of limo four times before Elm St. AND by lunging for rear

of limo ON Elm Street;

PART TWO: FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC TRIPS INVOLVING MOTORCADES 1961-1963:

NORMAL SECURITY IN COMPARISON TO DALLAS-

1) agents on / near limo in Dealey Plaza/ Elm Street before/ during

shooting (up to/ inc. 11/18/63; Boring tells agents not to mount rear of

limo between 11/19 and 11/21, according to Clint Hill)- blamed on JFK!;

2) motorcycles- from upwards of 6 flanking units down to a measely 4

non-flanking units (11/18-11/22 Fort Worth; according to DPD, this

occure at the last minute: morning of 11/22+ meeting of 11/21 via SS/

Grant)- blamed on JFK!;

3) The Secret Service was knowledgable about prior/ existing threats of

11/2 [Chicago], 11/9 [Milteer/ Miami], and 11/18 [Tampa/ Miami]: Boring,

Grant, Bolden, Martineau, Kinney, etc. Remember PRS agent Bennett’s

mysterious placement in follow-up car on 11/22/63;

4) Protective Research Section (PRS): ZERO threats found for Dallas

trip, despite three known checks, Stevenson incident, Wanted for Treason

photos, and warnings to JFK: Senator William Fulbright, DNC advanceman

Marty Underwood, San Antonio Congressman Henry Gonzalez, etc.;

5) Deleted squad car (meeting of 11/21 between DPD and Secret Service/

Grant)

6) Motorcade route: two dangerous turns (90 and 120 degrees) involving

slow speeds in a warehouse district (TSBD)- changed between 11/18 and

11/19 in spite of at least two better/ alternate routes; driver- no

independent knowledge: had to follow the lead car;

7) Publication of route- by (and denied by) the Secret

Service---accomplished with the help of Betty Forsling Harris, Bill

Moyers, and “the agent in charge of the Dallas trip”!;

8) Vehicles out of original, numerical order- changed 11/22 at Love

Field;

9) Media (press busses), photographers (always in front- cancelled at

the last minute at Love Field), Cecil Stoughton ( rode near rear of

limo/ in follow-up car July to November 21, 1963), Godfrey McHugh, and

Ted Clifton- moved away from JFK/ limousine, against prior protocal /

motorcades. DMN photographer Tom Dillard. While confirming this last

minute cancellation, said this brought the press/ photographers “totally

out of the picture”!;

10) Omissions: Behn, Salinger (Hatcher), Knight, Bruno [Rowley, Dillon];

11) Trade Mart (VS. WOMEN’S BUILDING)- determined speed of cars,

motorcade route choices, and security of building---Secret Service had a

hand in this whole affair;

12) Sheriff Bill Decker (lead car)- order 11/22 not to participate…via a

call from D.C.?

13) Overpass crowded 11/22 in Dealey Plaza, against protocal;

14) Windows not watched 11/22, despite Lawson’s “usual instructions” to

do so;

15) ATSAIC Roberts: recall of SA Rybka at Love Field; recall of SA Ready

in the Plaza (SA Hill delay); order not to move; usurps Kellerman's

power at Parkland/ switch of allegiance;

16) Ambulances on standby- gone inc. “epileptic seizure” incident

12:25---five minutes before murder of JFK. Rike said his ambulance was

called to the Dealey Plaza area on several false alarms several days and

weeks before 11/22/63!;

17) No bubbletop- a protective device (shielded JFK via sun glare,

possible deflection, psychological deterrent)---often on car in partial

form, as well (just the rear piece, for example). Strange, multiple

responsibility [Harris, Lawson, Kellerman, Sorrels, O’Donnell, etc.];

ultimately, blamed on JFK (although it was Kinney’s sole/ regretted

decision)!;

18) JFK/LBJ: in same city in slow, open vehicles in close proximity to

each other---unique and quite a “no-no”;

19) Umbrella man- presence/ actions not noted about, written or oral

(cause for delay, confusion? Signal?). SS manual states that this is one

of many things to watch for!;

20) Special ordinance of 11/18 with DPD: permitted action against unruly

persons becoming involved with peaceful picketing---was this a loophole

designed to give plotters/ SS/ DPD some flexiblity to do certain things,

and not to do other things, regarding security?;

21) Greer: slows limo, 2 looks back, disobeys Kellerman; leads race to

Parkland ( despite contradictory radio transmissions of SS);

22) Marina captivity by SS;

23) Autopsy related: body, x-rays, photos, skull fragments, bullet

fragments---SS firmly in control of these crucial items of evidence;

24) CE399: in SS possession

25) Limo: in SS possession---soon after rebuilt, destroying moving crime

scene/ evidence;

26) “dead” agent---many media outlets reported this as fact, at

different times and in different ways (inc. location);

27) “SS” agents---phoney or REAL agents in the plaza;

28) drinking incident 11/21-11/22: inc. four agents who rode in the

follow-up car: Hill, Ready, Bennett, and Landis!;

Vince Palamara 4/11/99

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

-The "Nashville Banner" from 1/23/92 carried a report that a mortal

threat to President Kennedy s life was hushed up by the Secret Service

when JFK visited Nashville, TN, on 5/18/63. The information came from

Rep. Bob Clement, the son of former Governor Frank Clement, JFK's host

during his 1963 visit to the state (both Clements met JFK on this trip

[inc. is a photo from the trip depicting both the elder Clement and his

son]). At Overton High School, a man approached the president with a gun

underneath a sack---he was grabbed by the Secret Service and the

incident itself was kept quiet in order to keep from encouraging similar

scares [think of all the copycat school shootings there are today

because of media hype!]. Bob Clement said: "Back in those days, privacy

was easier to accomplish". The paper interviewed the widow of Paul

Doster, the former SAIC of the Nashville office who died in

1987)---although Paul did not mention the incident to her, she said:

"But, you ve got to remember, he was pretty secretive, even to me." For

his part, Agent Doster told the "Nashville Banner" back on 5/18/63 that

"a complete check of the entire motorcade route" was done (also, other

[police] officers were assigned atop the municipal terminal and other

buildings along the route. These men took their posts at 8 a.m. and

remained at their rooftop stations until the president and his party

passed . In addition, a helicopter was used, similar to its use on

11/21/63 in San Antonio, TX). Agents/ important personnel on this trip

inc. Salinger, Behn, Kellerman, Greer, Roberts, DeFreese, Duncan,

Chandler, Yeager, Nunn, O Leary, Grant, Sulliman, Lawson, Olsson,

Paolella, Burns, and DNC advance man Jerry Bruno;

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DNC ADVANCE MAN IN DALLAS:

Jack Puterbaugh, HSCA 4/14/78-

[RIF#1801008010069]

Advanced JFK in Duluth, Minnesota, Sept. 1963, and when he was a

candidate in 1960; "Since the Citizen's Council was footing the bill for the lunch,

they felt that they should determine the wheres and the whos";

11/12/63 w/ Lawson "Puterbaugh met Forrest Sorrels... and drove the alternative

motorcade routes with him"; "On November 22, Puterbaugh rode in the pilot car

[correct] w/ Agent Win Lawson [wrong!] ... THEY PULLED OVER AND LET THE MOTORCADE PASS."

DNC ADVANCE MAN IN HOUSTON (ALSO HAD THE AUSTIN ADVANCE):

Martin E. Underwood-

In an exclusive interview conducted on 10/9/92, the author

obtained thefollowing new information:

- Underwood became "an honorary Secret Service agent" and served

under Presidents Kennedy and Johnson. While with LBJ, he became the

"aide in charge of the Secret Service." The advance man confirmed to this

author that JFK did not restrict agents from riding on the Presidential

limousine. Underwood told Harrison Livingstone: "There were so

many things that fell through in Dallas. Any advance man who had any

sense at all would never have taken him down that route." When

Livingstone commented that the route was changed, Underwood added: "Yeah, I

know. You don't take a guy down a route like that."("High Treason 2",

by HarryLivingstone, page 442)

- FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover had a file on Underwood and,

according to the advance man, Hoover hid the Lee Harvey Oswald file from the

Secret Service;

- Underwood stated that the CIA, the FBI, and the mafia "knew

(JFK) was going to be hit" on 11/22/63 - this information came from his

direct contacts with CIA officer Win Scott, the Mexico City Station

Chief during Oswald's visit to that region! In addition, Underwood

stated that, eighteen hours before Kennedy's murder, "we were getting

all sorts of rumors that the President was going to be assassinated in

Dallas; there were no if's, and's, or but's about it." When Underwood

told JFK about these disturbing reports, the President merely said,

"Marty, you worry about me too much" (indeed, JFK told San Antonio

Congressman Henry Gonzalez on 11/21/63: "The Secret Service told me that they have

taken care of everything. There's nothing to worry about").

The reason why Underwood opened up to me is best expressed by

him: "Everyone who had anything to do with Dallas in any way - Kenny

O'Donnell, the Secret Service -they're practically all dead now.

I just think people should know the truth."

HEAD DNC ADVANCE MAN :

Jerry Bruno, HSCA 12/13/77-

[RIF# 180-10117-10264]

"advanced the Bogota, Columbia trip and one to Italy in 1963 as

well as an 11-state conservation trip which the President took before

going to Texas that year";

Bruno didn't like Trade Mart-catwalks... liked Women's Building;

before 11/22/63: "Cliff Carter asked Bruno if there was any truth to the rumor

that JFK WAS GOING TO DUMP LYNDON IN 1964. Bruno told him he didn't know.

The Johnson people were also afraid of the BOBBY BAKER investigation

and the effect it would have on Johnson remaining on the ticket.";

Bruno at White House, 11/5/63 w/ Behn-" O'Donnell, Behn, and

Brunodecided against the Trade Mart... Bruno does not remember talking

to Agent Winston Lawson of the WHD; he says he dealt mainly w/ Jerry

Behn and to this day he can't imagine what caused Behn to reverse

himself on the Trade Mart.";

"Kenny O'Donnell told Bruno that a local Secret Service agent in

Dallas (Sorrels?) [steuart?] told Jerry Behn that the SS now felt they

could protect the President at the Trade Mart.";

"Bruno told us there was friction between the FBI and the SS.

'They would never rely on each other. The SS would develop their own

local sources', he said... He said there were times when the SS agents

were LAX. Sometimes they'd say that they checked out a situation and

they would not have done so. Asked to comment about drinking after

hours, he said: "They were not 'one beer' drinkers. They could really put

it away', he said. He related an incident on the Naples trip where

an agent, whom he did not identify[ Berger?, whose name was

remembered twice at the Press Club 11/21-11/22/63 and who was mentioned in

Bruno's notes], pulled his gun on a hotel keeper who would not open a bar

late at night to serve them. This trip was in 1963[June or July] prior

to the Texas one."

http://www.jfk-assassination.net/palamara/ssrosters.html

We can see below how close they were in Willis....

B..

Edited June 1, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

Bumpers away......

[Charles Black]

Hello everyone

I will again make a xxxx of myself by offering another set of comments.

First of all, there is and have been thousands of words of testimony regarding those few "seconds" of the actual shooting event. Some, as in most everything in this case, is inconsistent with others, and can be the "attempted" true remembrance

of what persons at least "thought" that they heard.

To me, it is extremely unlikely that Kellerman lied regarding his belief that Kennedy stated that he was hit. It is also likely that Kellerman shortly later stated, before somewhat changing it, that a "flurry of shots" entered the vehicle. Folks, you may argue this if yo care to, but Audie Murphy would have been immediately shaken and confused if "a flurry of shots" had entered "his" vehicle....tho I have heard no one ever question Mr. Murphy's courage, cool headedness and experience "under fire".

If everyone would take a step back...NO ONE knows the exact words and orders spoken in that vehicle or what was "heard". Some of you are extending these very few brief seconds, probably because of lack of a similar experience, into what you in your minds, have contrived to have been a long enough period of time for a period of "rational thinking to have been occurring in the "actual

panic" that enveloped all of those within that vehicle. I "know" that in situations such as these, combatants "instinctively act in the manner in which they were trained". Ball players in a game, play in the manner which they practiced (by instinct) as there is not time for prolonged thought.

Robert Davidson; I in no way found your comments out of order, tho not applicable to THIS situation.

Officers, those in charge, are trained to never deliberately react to an ambush, or assault, by blindly charging an enemy of unknown force, who is "holding the high ground", who knows clearly your position, strength and range, and is raking your troops with gunfire. The action called for is to spread and not naturally huddle, cover yourselves, return fire, and determine whether to go forward, retreat, flank the enemy, or call for support as the situation is being given "a

few more seconds" to be asessed!

To the best of all of my study of these few seconds, Greer, by veering the car out of its path and atempting to stop, was the only "sound" secret service action taken by anyone other than Youngblood and Hill.

I feel that many of you, as I stated before, are:

A) expanding the conspiracy beyond logical reason, to include persons who were at too low a level, to have logically been actively involved. Had this been a " conspiracy of thousands"...this case would have long been solved.

attempting to find anyone (a patsy) who is much easier to finger than those elevated "masters of covert operations".

This is a human flaw, to attempt to find a person to blame / convict, when the true criminal/criminals have been more intelligent than the investigators. This is the WHY of a great many innocent persons who are legally convicted....It is a human desire to WIN....TO AID in "solving" the case.

An attempt to find a cause, a bad guy, even if it is inwardly known to be a "Patsy", gives we flawed humans, some degree of relief.

I feel that few who have posted on this topic, truly have experienced and cannot even imagine the trauma that occurred, in that appx. sixteen square feet which surrounded JFK, at 12:30 CST on 11/22/63, during those six to nine seconds in question.

Kellerman "heard JFK speak" and Mrs. Kennedy had no recollection of her movement onto the trunk of the vehicle......this is how truly assured some of you are in what, "you know", transpired.

Neither You, I, John & Nellie Connally, Jackie, Greer, Kellerman, the motorcycle officers, or the follup up vehicle filled with SS agents only a few yards behind ...."KNOW", even 43 years later, neither the sequence nor the timing of events.

However, many of you on this forum, ABSOLUTELY KNOW that what prompted Greer, was a desire to see "The President Dead".

This is called the "Education Forum". God cannot even imagine, what those poor "Uneducated" researchers must assume !

I suppose that since it has been "proven" that agent Greer did not actually SHOOT The President, as has been frequently claimed....this must be presumed a "good alternative".

Charles Black

[Chuck Robbins]

I will try to keep this short.

With no possibility of driving back the way he came, no room to turn the limo around, and, with no driving over the curb to find an alternative escape route...

There was but one choice available to the driver, or, any driver in that predicament...

Forward....at speed...and hope for the best.

A sitting duck is so named because it does what...? It sits still.

If it quacks like a...no, if it walks like a...no, if it sits like a...yes, then, it becomes a dead duck.

So, let's put aside all talk about history...about training...about panic...etc.,

Remember, every ambush presents unique intangibles which require quick thinking and quick reactions if the target's survival is to be assured.

Whether secret service was involved in a conspiracy, or not, is not really the issue that should be argued...

the choice to sit still, while under fire, resulted in the death of the person they were sworn to protect..

I do not recall seeing even one SS agent act to protect or cover the President when he came under fire.

THAT lack of action, by all of the agents, is what ultimately gave the shooter(s) their chance to kill JFK.

Hell...they may as well have still been in the Cellar having a drink for all the good they did that day.

[Charles Black]

Chuck

I being a person who has had extensive training and actual experience in similar matters.....I find your statemets as ridiculous as ANY that I have Ever read on this forum.

You for some absolutely ridiculous reason, in my pretty qualified opinion, stated "There was but one choice available to the driver, or, any driver in that predicament....Forward at speed....and hope for the best."

Get serious Chuck....Do you believe that anyone is TRAINED to go "forward at speed and HOPE FOR THE BEST" ? ? Perhaps this should be followed by "Damn the torpedoes, Full speed ahead"! I hope that you have reconsidered the ridiculousness of what you stated. Do you believe that anyone giving tactical training since the beginning of time, would consider his student so stupid as to tell him anything like that?

Then you followed with a statement that possibly even overshadows your previous one. "...lets put aside all talk about history...about training....about panic...etc."

Why should ANYONE EVER put aside History and Training and just... "Forward at speed and HOPE FOR THE BEST".

Is this how you would train persons who were dependent on you? This "aint even done" in a ball game.

With responses such as yours, I doubt that I should remain on this forum.

You are making the "Education Forum" an adaptation of "Looney Tunes".

This isn't even a debate !

Charles Black

[Michael Hogan]

Michael

Your immediately prior post should grade out as quite irrational to anyone that has followed this thread ! You are implying that you did not "strongly" intimate that Greer was a part of the conspiracy. You have further strongly inimated that in the appx. 2 1/2 seconds, maximum, involved, "most" similarly positioned and trained persons Would Have acted differently. You attempt to make it sound as if a lengthy period of time transpired and that Greer was reluctant to proceed because he was attempting to give the gunmen a larger window of opportunity.

Repeating your erroneous claims doesn't make them true. And putting random words in quotation marks doesn't make you any more coherent. I never implied, intimated, or claimed that Greer was part of "the conspiracy." I posted excerpts from Vince Palamara's book, an author who might know a little more about Secret Service procedure than you do. Why don't you go back and quote me where I said anything about conspiracy?

I have no animous (sic) toward you Michael, but it seems that you are one of those many persons that, although you have no training or actual experience in such a military type situation, has decided that you know more regarding military tactics and response, than persons such as Robert E. Lee, Erwin Rommel, Napolean, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Sun Tsu and inumerable other very successful military tacticians.

Again, I never expressed any opinion on military tactics. Where do you get these ideas in your head?

In my opinion, you are simply entering an area of discussion in which the farther you attempt to proceed, the more of a fool that you make of youself.

To me, someone who admits he doesn't know much about Secret Service procedure and turns ugly and insulting when presented with the ideas of an author who has specialized in that area, and makes a lot of false claims about what someone has posted, without even bothering to quote them may not have the credentials to pass judgement on who is a fool and who isn't.

You act as if you know more than those persons who "HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT".....because you have an "opinion". Nothing more! Obviously "NO" related training and ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE !

I guess you have been there and done that, whatever that means. You seem quite comfortable in expressing your opinions, no matter how ill-informed and noxious they might be, yet you take umbrage when someone merely posts some of the conclusions of Palamara and pokes fun at your constant false claims that this is your last word on the topic. Again, just go back and quote me where I made any claims about Greer being part of the conspiracy. Or any of your other false claims about my positions on this this thread. Why can't you quote someone, if you are going to put your own personal spin on what they say? Too much trouble for you?

If I have insulted you, I am sorry....BUT, you have begged for it !

Yeah, I'm sure you're sorry. BUT, You've actually insulted yourself far more than you insulted me.

Bottom line Charlie, you're just so totally self-absorbed that you often lose focus on what others are writing or saying. You can scarcely construct a sentence without referring to yourself in the first person. Go back and look at any of your posts and note how often the word "I" or "me" appears. Far far more than anyone on this Forum. Sometimes you use the word "I" three or four times in the same sentence. No one else here does that.

While sometimes engaging in the most transparent attempts at self-deprecation, you've established a track record of getting ugly and nasty and, to use someone else's euphemism, heavily sarcastic whenever you think someone doesn't see eye to eye with you. You like being the center of attention and will often fashion your rhetoric in that direction. Someone whom I actually respect made a long post on Vince Palamara's findings. I'm sure that's of little interest to you, even though it goes to the heart of this thread, which you created in your opening post.

[Guest Gary Loughran]

Chuck

I being a person who has had extensive training and actual experience in similar matters.....I find your statemets as ridiculous as ANY that I have Ever read on this forum.

You for some absolutely ridiculous reason, in my pretty qualified opinion, stated "There was but one choice available to the driver, or, any driver in that predicament....Forward at speed....and hope for the best."

Get serious Chuck....Do you believe that anyone is TRAINED to go "forward at speed and HOPE FOR THE BEST" ? ? Perhaps this should be followed by "Damn the torpedoes, Full speed ahead"! I hope that you have reconsidered the ridiculousness of what you stated. Do you believe that anyone giving tactical training since the beginning of time, would consider his student so stupid as to tell him anything like that?

Then you followed with a statement that possibly even overshadows your previous one. "...lets put aside all talk about history...about training....about panic...etc."

Why should ANYONE EVER put aside History and Training and just... "Forward at speed and HOPE FOR THE BEST".

Is this how you would train persons who were dependent on you? This "aint even done" in a ball game.

With responses such as yours, I doubt that I should remain on this forum.

You are making the "Education Forum" an adaptation of "Looney Tunes".

This isn't even a debate !

Charles Black

Hi Charlie,

Given the (para)military tactic of triangulation of fire where do you believe the worst place to be is in this scenario as it occurred in DP?

What do you believe is the best available option in DP for removing oneself from said triangulation?

How are military personnel taught to react in this scenario, such as DP - lack of cover etc.?

To take your football analogy - yes plays drilled into people can be busted on the field, but you neglected to talk of the equally well drilled opposition whose job it is to break up these plays deliberately! Shouldn't the SS have been prepared for such an attack and their strategic reaction.

Personally, I don't think there was an option for a time-out and huddle in DP to assess the next move, but then I'm no military man.

Your answers to the above questions should help me in developing a more insightful opinion of how the SS performed that day.

Thanks

Gary

[Guest Gary Loughran]

bump

[Chuck Robbins]

Chuck

I being a person who has had extensive training and actual experience in similar matters.....I find your statemets as ridiculous as ANY that I have Ever read on this forum.

You for some absolutely ridiculous reason, in my pretty qualified opinion, stated "There was but one choice available to the driver, or, any driver in that predicament....Forward at speed....and hope for the best."

Get serious Chuck....Do you believe that anyone is TRAINED to go "forward at speed and HOPE FOR THE BEST" ? ? Perhaps this should be followed by "Damn the torpedoes, Full speed ahead"! I hope that you have reconsidered the ridiculousness of what you stated. Do you believe that anyone giving tactical training since the beginning of time, would consider his student so stupid as to tell him anything like that?

Then you followed with a statement that possibly even overshadows your previous one. "...lets put aside all talk about history...about training....about panic...etc."

Why should ANYONE EVER put aside History and Training and just... "Forward at speed and HOPE FOR THE BEST".

Is this how you would train persons who were dependent on you? This "aint even done" in a ball game.

With responses such as yours, I doubt that I should remain on this forum.

You are making the "Education Forum" an adaptation of "Looney Tunes".

This isn't even a debate !

Charles Black

I'm all ears...tell me what could/should have been done differently that would have saved JFK's life?

Could you remind me exactly HOW the limo did eventually leave the ambush area?

Wasn't it forward...and very quickly? Was anyone else shot after the limo floored it?

I have single-handedly turned the Forum into a form of Looney Tunes?

Shame on you.

Please show me where it was in my last post that I had insulted, berated or ridiculed your point of view?

I never intended for this to be a debate. Am I trying to persuade you to change your mind?...no.

My opinions are my own and are not required to coincide with yours.

What you, and I, have done here is to state our opinions....

You can't bully anyone into accepting your views.

Please don't threaten to not respond again....and then respond anyway.

It ruins the whole effect.

[Charles Black]

Hello everyone

I am being attacked continuously for attempting to state, that Secret Service Training, cannot differ

from miltary training established over eons, to best handle an unexpected attack from a force of possible superior strength, from a highly superior "most likely position". Please stop for a moment!

In those couple of seconds, all that was realized by the two SS men in the limo was that gunfire, " a flurry of shots" was entering their vehicle. No one was able to determine the "exact" position of the incoming fire. The most likely position, that these tactically trained agents should probably immediately and logically surmise, since there is a strong possibility that a bullet came thru the windshield, and since there were a group of persons ahead and above on the overpass....where NO ONE should be... and since this was ideal ambush positioning.... "should have been" that they were headed their prescious "cargo" directly IN HARMS WAY.

I have never stated that ANY action would or even could have saved JFK's life. This ambush was meant to "kill him". His life possibly would not have been saved had he even had an "ejection seat". My statement did not infer that ANYTHING would have saved his life. And for those of you who have chosen me as an object for a "feeding frenzy", you should open your eyes and re-read exactly what I have said.

Greer and Kellerman did not have in their minds, military style ambush with triangulation of fire !

They "seemed to be" proceding directly into gunfire." I feel that the logical and reasonable actions should have been for Greer, while veering the vehicle and stopping to have been shouting for everyone to evacuate the vehicle. Kellerman should have been attempting to cover the President, if he even had to "go thru" Mr. & Mrs, Connally. The stopping of the vehicle would have allowed the SS back up vehicle to also stop and send all agents to cover the President and assist in removing all from the vehicle.

This may have SAVED no one....but was much more in keeping with "protection" than "full speeed ahead" into the ambush...."Custer was very WRONG".

For some reason I am being attacked also for using the word "I". "I" use it because it is not at times necessary for me to quote a premise from a book. You should be appreciative, not critical, when forum members can speak from knowledge, training and experience.....and not be posting a "hypothesis".

"I" have never said that the Secret Service turned in an admirable performance on 11/22/63. "I" have said that many who absolutely are expressing opinions regarding matters, of which they have neither training or experience, are speaking only to hear their own voices.

I am not attempting to praise Mr. Greer or the Secret Service' general performance. I am attempting to prevent you from creating false, patsied, "scapegoats" since you have nothing credible to add that is reasonable.

And again for my "critics"! When "I" personally know something, "I" will continue to use the first person. When expressing a "belief" rather than fact, I will indicate that it is a personal opinion....which I think that I am allowed to have.

When quoting others, I will so reference.

I am sorry that many of you take offense when you realize that there are many who have helped shape history, in their small way, rather than merely "reading" about it.

I offer no apologies for what I perceive to be the truth that I have offered here and in other posts.

As I am not an educator as such, I am accustomed to addressing my audiences on a level field, with both my knowledge and beliefs.....without requiring that anyone accept either. I will continue this practice.

I have stated nothing in the course of this thread that is untrue or that I feel is "unsound". You should believe whatever fantasy that you damned well choose to !

Good luck in your "quest for excuses"! I shall continue to seek truth....wherever it falls !

Have a very good day !

Charles Black

[Bernice Moore]

Again .double...deleted.....????

Andy this is continually happening the....Attachments not taking the first time ?? and now they appear in the deleted post

but not the first???? Full edit....

scrambledeggs....

Hillarious now the attached photos appear in the first deleted post LOL...

I am leaving well enough alone....you get the photos first but who knows it

may have changed again ,when I click the "submit modifed post" again, me

thinks the Gremlin is active..... it did LOL......sorry but it is funny......

well to moi...

Thanks....

B.

The Politics of Protection

An Informal Review and Partial Rebutal

by Vince Palamara

Although known mainly for his impresive work in the RFK and MLK assassination cases, Prof. Phil Melanson published a little

known and largely overlooked work on the Secret Service, The Politics of Protecton. This book places much emphasis on

the JFK assassination and the post-Warren Commission changes made to it. It was highly regarded and had the full cooperation

of the Secret Service's own Public Affairs Department --- which tells you something of the thrust of the book: it attempts to

follow the beaten path of the Warren Commission and the HSCA by praising the agency's accomplishments, and glossing over

its profound (deliberate?) failure in Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963. In other words, the old "JFK-as-scapegoat" theme,

one also adopted by previous authors such as William Manchester and Jim Bishop, is alive and well in this work, which

originally appeared in 1984 (Orwell, please take note).

This article is distillation of a full review that was written several years ago, and circulated privately. Despite my strong views on

his book, Melanson liked my review so much he sent me a letter THANKING me for the in-depth study! In the interest of

sharing this with the research community, I feel it is appropriate to here detail the JFK-related portions of my full review, in the

hopes of demonstrating how important it is to take the next step in one's research: using primary sources and interviews with the

principal people themselves (in this case, the former Secret Service agents) and always questioning "official" history, especially

that which arises from the "public affairs" departments of the FBI, the CIA, and the Secret Service.

The chapter and page references herein refer to Melanson's book. Quoted passages, of course, indicate verbatim parts of the

book, while unquoted passages and/or section heads indicate issues Melanson raises. My comments follow.

* * *

Chapter 3 (pp 38-52)

"The organization's resources have grown impressively in the past two decades [1984]. Its budget has risen faster than inflation:

from a mere $8 million in 1963 to $27 million in 1970, to $98 million in 1975, to its present [1984] level of $180 million. The

Secret Service of the early 1960's had only 350 special agents and 170 uniformed officers, compared with today's [1984] 1800

agents and 900 uniformed officers. The White House detail which protected President Kennedy had 36 agents; the one

protecting President Reagan has nearly twice that many [70]".

Whether this could be construed by some --- and it has --- as being a motive for Secret Service complicity and/or cover-up is

for the reader to decide. Agent Marty Venker said that this growth would make the Pentagon envious, while agent Rufus

Youngblood said that, because of the assassination, the Secret Service is more appreciated by the taxpayers.

p.41- Clint Hill retired in 1975 as SAIC of the White House Detail (at age 43) --- this was due to much survivor's guilt

regarding the tragic events of 11/22/63.

Hill is, without a doubt, the most publicized of any Secret Service agent, past or present. He is also a "poster boy" for survivor's

guilt --- he is, more or less, a victim of the assassination (he has stated that it was his fault and that he should have reacted

faster!). So, while the organization has grown remarkably since 11/22/63 ($, equipment, personnel), their "star" agent, Clint Hill,

the one they decorated on 12/3/63 for bravery, took the fall: emotionally, physically, and publicly, covering for every other

agent that served under JFK.

CIA

"As with personnel, the Service often borrows from other agencies";

"Traditionally, though secretively, the Service has received training and equipment from the CIA"; i.e. color-coded lapel pins ...

[p.42] ... has received 'briefing/training' of a classified nature from the CIA." (CIA memo of 6/5/73.)

"Although the precise nature and extent of Secret Service dependence upon CIA remains top secret, it is surely important given

the Service's limitations of personnel and resources".

p.49-" Agents study movies of assassinations and attempted assassinations --- the Zapruder film of President Kennedy's

assassination, tapes of the two attempts on President Ford. They also study numerous assassination cases, both foreign and

domestic, and analyze each one --- Robert F. Kennedy ... Jack Ruby's murder of Oswald..."

Beltsville, MD facility-

pp. 49-50-" The figures appear for different lengths of time and carry a variety of objects --- briefcases, UMBRELLAS, guns".

p.67- "...tensions between the White House staff and the Service's White House detail were running high that year (1973),

culminating in the REMOVAL of Agent Robert S. [sic-H.] Taylor as head of the detail. Taylor's departure was prompted by a

rift between his detail and the Nixon staff [read Haldeman] concerning political priorities versus protective priorities".

Dr. Melanson discusses a plot to assassinate Nixon in New Orleans (Aug. 1973) --- Secret Service asked Nixon to cancel

motorcade; SS cancelled motorcade.

Chapter 5 (pp. 74-87)

James P. Kelly --- former Asst. Dir. of the SS. Kelly was also an investigator with the HSCA!

Chapter 6 (pp. 88-122)

p.99- On-the-road procedures; pp. 104-105- in case of attack- defense is the key; Secret Service training manual excerpts ---

i.e., "look for persons who are acting unnaturally ... look for unnatural appearance of places, OBJECTS [umbrellas?], and

situations".

Chapter 8 (pp. 137-159)

p.137- ".. there is no tradition of sacking the old Secret Service head when a new President takes office." (?)

This is simply not accurate. The record during the JFK through Nixon years speaks for itself:

1961- Rowley replaces Baughman;

1965- Youngblood replaces Behn;

1971- Youngblood ousted by H.R. Haldeman (replaced by ?[boggs?]);

1972- Knight replaces Rowley;

1973- Taylor and Duncan ousted by H.R. Haldeman

p.142- "It is an unwritten law in Mexican politics that presidents can never appear in public with any barrier between themselves

and their people- no bulletproof shields, no bubble-top cars, nothing" (?)

JFK in Mexico, Summer of 1962: agents surround car (Behn punches out a 'beatnik' spectator to boot) [this is NOT the

SX100]; using SX100, the bubble-top is ON the car AND agents are to the REAR of the limo...

JFK in Caracas, Venezuela and Bogota, Columbia, 1962: using SX100, the bubble-top is on and agents are riding on the back

of the limo...

p.143-"...the press knows that the president has the political clout to pressure the Service into loosening up (?)"

Rowley told the WC that "No President will tell the Secret Service what they can or cannot do", and Baughman wrote in his

book Secret Service Chief that the President knew that the Chief of the SS could countermand the Chief Executive when it

came to security precautions and considerations...

Melanson's title, The Politics of Protection, was adopted from Ken O'Donnell's remark to Jerry Behn, "politics and protection

don't mix." This is pure moonshine: they CAN and MUST! This title was also adopted by the HSCA for their equally shallow

chapter on the Secret Service.

Chapter 9 (pp. 160-181): "Losing Lancer: the Secret Service's Worst Crisis"

Here, Dr. Melanson relies on documents and Public Relations people, taken at face value.

His sources:

1.WC "Memorandum of Conference" 3/13/64, 3 pages;

2.CD3, part 1,12/18/63- memo from Dillon to Warren, Section III;

3.Rowley Report- WC file #22 "Records Relating to the Protection of the President";

4.other parts of CD3

p.160- Interference of Treasury Department lawyers with WC Report-

Melanson writes (albeit briefly) about Treasury Dept. interference in the WC 'investigation', a little known fact that can be

interpreted a few ways (like the agency's growth, the CIA help, and the training methods mentioned above).

Examples include Fred Smith interfering with Winston Lawson's WC testimony, and the question of why Rowley addressed a

report [with subheadings] to G. d'Andelot Belin, who he claimed was the General Counsel of the WC [he was not --- it was J.

Lee Rankin, a man who was already in frequent correspondence/communication with Rowley] --- did he mean DAVID Belin,

an assistant counsel of the WC [G. d'Andelot Belin was the General Counsel of the Treasury Department, and served as

ACTING Secretary of the Treasury when C. Douglas Dillon was out of the country during parts of 1963 and 1964]? [see 18

H 810-815.] In addition, was Belford V. Lawson III (the lawyer in charge of the Secret Service area of investigation for the

HSCA) any relation to WINSTON G. Lawson, the advance agent from Washington who was one of the major planners of

security in Dallas for 11/22/63?

p.161- Melanson's access to WC documents in the National Archives (see above )-

This may have been a big deal in 1984, but not in 1998 --- I have these documents!

p.162- The ever-popular "JFK-as-scapegoat" theme (ORIGINAL SS statements, Manchester, Bishop, WC, HSCA, etc. [it all

originated FROM the SS])-

Based on my many interviews/correspondence with 35+ former agents/White House aides, and the ten years passing since this

book (more information in public domain, etc.), this theme is absolutely FALSE --- SAIC Behn, ASAIC Boring, Sam Kinney,

Bob Lilley, and many others told me that JFK never ordered the agents to do anything and never interfered with their actions at

all (the only thing he would do was wade into crowds so people could shake his hand)! In addition, Kenny O'Donnell didn't

order them around, as far as security matters are concerned (whether he used them as butlers and 'go-fors', or even lookouts

[as JFK's romantic dalliances dictated] is another story altogether...)

"During a previous motorcade, Kennedy had made an exception and allowed his limousine to be flanked by police motorcycles,

because of a specific threat to his safety discovered in advance by the Service"-

What about the quality and quantity of FLANKING motorcycles in San Antonio, Houston, and Fort Worth on

11/21-11/22/63?!?! What about in Berlin and Ireland (June 1963)?! Talk to the agents (who told me JFK never said a thing

about motorcycles to begin with!) and look at the newsreels. For what it's worth, the absence of these flanking motorcycles in

Dallas on 11/22/63 by the Secret Service's orders was termed by the HSCA as being "UNIQUELY INSECURE". 'nuff said...

The agents-on-the-limo stories-

False. JFK NEVER ORDERED THE AGENTS TO GET OFF THE REAR OF HIS LIMO; even Dave Powers told me this!

(WHY the SS handed the WC 5 reports stating the opposite is another story --- the originators of these April 1964 reports ---

Behn and Boring --- totally refute them, as do many of their colleagues!)

The Bubbletop-

Although not bulletproof, several agents I spoke to said it WAS a deterent (it may deflect a bullet and/or blind an assassin's

view via the sun's glare...just the fact that most people believed it was bulletproof was protection enough --- if someone draws a

gun on you, would you say, "How do I know those aren't blanks in that thing?"). Most importantly, JFK DID NOT ORDER IT

OFF --- Sam Kinney told me it was his SOLE decision, one that both he and Bill Greer lived with regret for many years

afterward (Sam's report of 11/22/63 backs up his admission of sole responsibility).

Ken O'Donnell-

He did NOT order anyone in the Service to do anything, as far as security measures are concerned (and even if he did, he

would have been outmanned, outmanuevered, and outranked, as was the fate with H.R. Haldeman)

pp.162-163- "The president's protectors were not informed about the trip until political planning and publicity were well under

way. The idea [originated in] ... El Paso".

WRONG- Jerry Behn was WITH JFK, LBJ ,and CONNALLY in El Paso on 6/5/63 (as was the SX100 limo and many other

agents)! Also:

LBJ's April 1963 announcment of the trip which was carried in the newspapers;

9/26/63: official White House announcement (also in the newspapers);

10/4/63: Connally visits JFK in Oval Office- as if the SS wouldn't know about this (they installed and monitored the

taping system which was implemented and in full operation during JFK's administration, as well- SAIC of PRS Robert I.

Bouck, who I spoke with, installed and monitored the tapes from the EOB);

11/1/63: Connaly press conference;

11/4/63: ASAIC Boring notifies Lawson of the Dallas assignment (and the rest is history...)

pp.163-164- Only on 11/4/63, Melanson writes, did SS find out about the Dallas trip (?!) and Trade Mart decision-

While it is true that the Secret Service's SAIC of the Dallas office, Forrest V. Sorrels, was directed BY Behn, Connally was not

adamant about this building as the site for the luncheon- his itinerary called for the Statler Hilton Hotel, and he is also on record

as blaming the White House staff for this decision (O'Donnell). The Secret Service, which admitted that the Women's Building

was a better site security-wise, was the likely culprit in making sure that the Trade Mart WAS the luncheon site:

Rowley told the WC that Ken O'Donnell was to blame (just as O'Donnell was supposedly to blame for the removal of

the bubbletop!!! sure...). For the record, ODonnell denies confirming the Connally itinerary, as confirmed by fellow

advance man Jerry Bruno to James Reston,Jr. (He wanted the WOMEN'S BUILDING!). O'Donnell was also blamed

for LBJ's presence on AF!, but he vehemently denied this- it was a SS decision, as Mac Kilduff confirms;

Rowley also stated that fellow advance man Jack Puterbaugh had a hand in (relaying) this decision, an allegation

Puterbaugh DENIES-he had no involvement in this matter;

Lawson blamed fellow advance man Jerry Bruno for the Trade Mart decision- Bruno steadfastly denies this (He also

wanted the WOMEN'S BUILDING!);

According to Jerry Bruno, based off his 11/5/63 meeting with SAIC of WHD Jerry Behn, Behn also wanted the

WOMEN'S BUILDING- when Behn saw the catwalks in the Trade Mart (an excellent perch for snipers) , he said

"We'll NEVER go there!";

On the same day that Sorrels conversed with Behn's office on 11/4/63, Lawson also conferred with Behn's office about

the Trade Mart decision.However, unlike Sorrels, Lawson wasn't sure he actually SPOKE to Behn [4H337]- he DID

receive the Dallas assignment from the man who shared Behn's office, FLOYD BORING, the agent who was in charge

of the Dallas trip (and who was the primary source for the reports that went to the WC alleging JFK's "desires" in

removing the agents from the rear of the limo, although Boring, as previously noted, joined his many associates in refuting

these reports!)

Conclusion? - While it's hard to be definitive, due to the inordinate amount of passing the buck going on here (especially by the

Secret Service), it appears that, contrary to their knowledge that the Trade Mart was not as good as the Women's Building

from a security standpoint, the Secret Service (Boring?) paradoxically gave the green light (to Lawson?) in going forward with

the Trade Mart as JFK's luncheon speech site (which thus determined the speed of the route and the specific security of the

building) for reason or reasons not totally clear (unless one wishes to invoke a sinister explanation, in light of all the

aforementioned buck-passing). Finally, Bruno told the HSCA that he believed that the WOMEN's BUILDING was initially

selected as the final choice but, as HSCA Vol. XI pages 517-518 read," Bruno stated that the local agents in Dallas had

decided to withdraw their earlier objections to the Trade Mart [sA Steuart, SAIC Sorrels], and instead recommended it. If any

local agent did in fact make such recommendations despite Behn's prior decision on November 6 favoring the Women's

Building, this would have presented a clear case of a subordinate agent contradicting the SAIC of the White House Detail".

"The Trade Mart luncheon site dictated most of the motorcade route [true] , including passing through Dealey Plaza [probably

true] and in front of the TSBD".

Wrong- what about Main to Industrial?? And there WERE alternate routes (as Sam Kinney and Winston Lawson both told me

[Lawson also told the WC the same thing])...

"The final route was selected November 14".

Wrong- why were the Dallas newspapers still talking about other routes? Why were there ALTERNATE routes, then? Even

"officially", the route is usually fingered as being "selected" between 11/18 and 11/19/63 (as the two Dallas newspapers report

for 11/19/63), coinciding with the arrival on 11/18/63 of advance agent David Grant from the Florida trip (JFK's final trip

before the FINAL trip!). As LBJ aide Bill Moyers told the HSCA, it was AFTER the 11/18/63 meeting with the Secret Service

that he gave his associate Betty Harris (who was working WITH the Secret Service, too) the green light to print/publish the

motorcade route, which was ultimately based on this authority: what Moyers referred to as "the agent in charge of the Dallas

trip"!!! Was he referring to FLOYD BORING? In the end, it doesn't really matter WHO the specific agent was: Chief Rowley

told the Warren Commission (who, like some other people, took documents and testimony at face value) that the Secret

Service does NOT release selected routes of presidential motorcades to the press and they did NOT in Dallas, a blatant lie: his

own people did so! And it gets even better (or worse, depending on which way you look at it)...

Also p. 164- "The precise route was published ... on November 19".

While this is technically true, there is a devastating other side of the coin (and no, I don't mean the alternate routes):

SAIC BEHN TOLD ME THAT THE HSCA ASKED HIM IN EXECUTIVE SESSION 'WHY WAS THE ROUTE

CHANGED', AND BEHN TOLD ME IT WAS INDEED CHANGED, BUT HE CLAIMS TO HAVE FORGOTTEN THE

SPECIFIC REASON WHY!

So, it appears that Gerald Posner and all the other sorry apologists for the Warren Commission and the Secret Service were

wrong all along- what a shame...

"There was no attempt to exercise any secrecy regarding the President's itinerary or the motorcade route"-

Mostly true, but it was the SECRET SERVICE who had a profound hand in these events, which Rowley had the audacity to

deny to the WC (see above).

11/18/63 meeting w/Sorrels, Lawson, and the Dallas PD.

No mention of Lawson's oft-forgotten partner, David B.Grant (typical).

"Police were to be assigned to each of the overpasses along the route to keep spectators off of them and thereby protect the

president's open limousine from being hit with any falling objects".

This was not adhered to in DEALEY PLAZA, despite Lawson's responsibility to see that it was done!

p.165- "Dallas police were shown, and given samples of, the color-coded lapel pins worn by the Secret Service".

Apparently they were shown much more than that- illicit Secret Service credentials made their way into Dealey Plaza, as

verified by the accounts of 3 police officers and 4 spectators, not including Lee Harvey Oswald himself, who told Secret

Service Inspector Thomas J. Kelley minutes before his own murder of running into an "agent" in front of the TSBD ... Gee, I

wonder who could have provided this identification in the first place (former agent Abe Bolden confirmed to me that it was

widely known in the Service that a 'lost or stolen' I.D. card found its way into Dealey Plaza, the prime motivator behind the

redesign of the Secret Service commission books in January of 1964)!

Standard line (by Dillon) about not watching the windows or checking buildings in advance or during the motorcades-

Lawson told the WC AND the HSCA it was his "usual practice" to have the men watch the windows, as part of their normal

scanning duties (DPD Captain Perdue Lawrence confirmed,sadly, that these orders were NOT given in Dallas). In addition,

Chief Inspector Michael W. Torina told William Manchester in 1961 that whenever a motorcade must slow for a turn (such as

the 120 degree, Secret Service-violating turn onto Elm Street, for example), the entire intersection must be checked in advance.

No wonder Dillon got to chair the Dillon Committee of 11/22/64 (to oversee the SS) and the Rockefeller Commission - if you

want a face value, superficial examination, he's your man...

pp.166-167- doesn't mention the highly, perhaps uniquely, unusual nature of both JFK and LBJ being in the same slow-moving

open vehicle parade together (which both Lawson [to the WC] and Bolden [to me] said was unusual), Kellerman's statement to

the FBI (later denied, of course), that "the security measures employed were among the most stringent and thorough ever

employed for the visit of a president to an American city", or DPD Curry's similar remarks which appeared in the Dallas papers

BEFORE the assassination in regard to his men and their coordination with the Secret Service...

The drinking incident of 11/21-11/22/63

Very good essay, following the lines of my research, however pp. 167-168-Rowley whitewash- Although the Secret Service

manual specifically and unequivocally states that drinking while in TRAVEL STATUS (not even while "on duty")is grounds for

removal from the agency, Rowley did not punish the offenders in any way whatsoever and his "claim...(was) based primarily

upon the finding that none of the nine agents were in a position to have performed any action that might have saved the

president, since none were in the pesident's car but ONLY (!) IN THE FOLLOW-UP CAR. ROWLEY TOLD THE

COMMISSION THAT THE AGENTS INVOLVED WERE AWARE OF THE SERIOUSNESS OF THEIR BREACH OF

CONDUCT AND WOULD NOT DO IT AGAIN"-

Clinton J. Hill (later to become SAIC of the WHD during the FORD years), Paul E. Landis, Jr., Glen A. Bennett, and John D.

Ready (the CLOSEST agent to JFK from the follow-up car)- none of these men could have prevented the assassination?!

What were they, then- merely hood ornaments? Also, who is Rowley fooling- they had a precedent for breaching conduct (as

Abe Bolden told me) and agents Marty Venker and Dennis V.N. McCarthy later wrote about drinking on duty and in travel

status committed by the agents during the 1970's and 1980's- give me a break! Finally, if not for the Secret Service's own fatal

decision in not having agents posted on the rear of the limo, holding the handrails, JFK probably would have lived, having only

received the non-fatal neck/back wound- the agents (particularly Ready) would have had 5 to 8 seconds to cover JFK before

the fatal/final shot (not to mention what already being posted there would have done to the psyche/confidence of the assassin or

assassins).If not for being intoxicated, Hill would not have arrived so damn late (it was Jackie who helped him- close study of

the Zapruder film shows that Hill never touched Jackie, the person he was assigned to protect; Ready was assigned to JFK's

side of the limo), and Ready would have made it in time.

p.169- As stated above, Hill did not push Jackie back into the car! Also, what is perhaps most disturbing of all is the fact that

Emory Roberts, the SAIC of 'half-back', the follow-up car, ORDERED THE MEN NOT TO MOVE after recognizing the first

shot as gunfire (one of the few Dealey Plaza witnesses to do so- most described the first shot as sounding like a

firecracker,NOT a rifle blast)! Sam Kinney strangely confirmed this to me this year, and it's even in the reports of Ready and

Roberts that Emory did recall Ready back to the follow-up car when he attempted to aid the striken president, although this

was blamned on the speed of the limo [allegedly 20-25 mph] and the distance between both [approx. 25 feet], the limo was

actually slowing down to a Secret Service violating 11.2 mph (this is an AVERAGE- it could be even less during the head shot)

and the distance was only a scant 5 feet at the most (as verified in films/photos, Clint Hill's WC testimony, and Paul Landis'

report). Without proper leadership from commander Roberts-without even so much as a measely shout of alarm or alert- the

men on the follow-up car were further perplexed, and Roberts' bizarre order certainly did not help. Nevertheless, Hill took the

initiative despite these orders (which could be why he was late) and the early morning drinks (ANOTHER reason why he was

so late)- at least he tried (although he was assigned-like Landis- to the First Lady detail); I guess Ready "tried", too. But,

please- to give a medal to Hill?!

"There is no way to know whether any agent could possibly have reached the president, in the few seconds available [5.6 to

8+,depending on who you want to believe], in time to cover him or to somehow screen him from the final, fatal bullet..."

SEE ABOVE; also, what about limo driver Greer who, despite a direct order from his superior sitting in the front seat a few feet

away, does not speed up the car out of danger-in fact, Greer turned around not once but TWICE and can be seen in the

Zapruder film looking directly at JFK when the fatal, final shot makes its mark (Greer denied looking at the President, slowing

down, or turning back around [let alone twice] to the gullible Warren Commission under oath).The second turn around

happened AFTER Kellerman told Greer to get out of line; as Kellerman told Manchester, "Greer then looked back in the car.

Maybe he didn't believe me". Agent Marty Venker confirms what Mary Gallagher alludes to in My Life with Jacqueline

Kennedy (not to mention C. David Heymann's book)-Jackie blamed Greer for not speeding up in time to save Jack!

Kellerman, for his part, is no angel- why the hell didn't he at least TRY to get into the rear of the limo, something he admitted to

the WC that no obstacle-including those in the limo used as excuses- would have made any difference had he felt he was

needed back there (I guess he didn't "feel" the "need"...) Kellerman also claimed that JFK spoke ("My God! I am hit!" to the

WC, "Get me to a hospital", the original version to the FBI), something no one else-including medical science- admitted taking

place (JFK was shot thru the neck)! Finally, Kellerman claimed to have seen JFK reaching for a part of his back near the right

shoulder, an action not recorded on any film, photo, or eyewitness account. It's time to stop making excuses for these clowns...

p.170- "Of all the locations along the route, Dealey Plaza (Elm Street) had to rank as one of the most dangerous in terms of

possible sniper fire"-

No argument here.

p.171- "INSTEAD OF THE 20 TO 30 MILES PER HOUR WHICH THE SECRET SERVICE LIKED TO MAINTAIN,

the presidential limousine moved at only 11.2 miles per hour"-

No argument here, either. But why didn't the Secret Service (Greer) pick up speed? The parade was basically over and they

were heading toward the freeway and on to the Trade Mart; Kellerman said he began to relax here, while others conceded that

the parade WAS over --- is this why the assassination took place here (food for thought)?

Greer "had no special training..."

He was trained just fine; also, he had plenty of experience. Finally, who needs "special training" --- even a snot-nosed 16 year

old knows how to HIT THE GAS! Keep in mind that Greer DISOBEYED his superior's order to get out of line BEFORE the

head shot arrived.

More apologies continue:

"Secret Service procedure in operation at this time did not allow Greer to accelerate or take evasive action ON HIS OWN

INITIATIVE: he was supposed to wait for a command from his colleague seated next to him, Agent Kellerman".

Boy, did Melanson set himself up here: Rowley told the WC and Kelley told the HSCA that the drivers WERE given proper

trainig and instructions on what to do in this situation: Leave the area at once! Also, as stated above, he didn't need his own

initiative- Kellerman DID give him an order-what's the story?! Maybe Robert Snow should have told Melanson that Greer was

hard of hearing- he probably would have believed him!Melanson does somewhat redeem himself here, though: "But there was

no action of any kind taken by either agent (Greer or Kellerman) during the 6 to 7 seconds that limousine rolled down Elm

Street at a snail's pace".

No physical, protective action --- right. But they both claimed to the FBI to have manned the radio in order to get the limo to

the nearest hospital, among other things they later (conveniently) denied.

p.172- Clifton C. Carter was an LBJ aide, NOT an agent!

p.178-"In terms of protective performance during the shooting, THOUGH POLITICAL PRIORITIES HAD

PREDETERMINED MUCH OF THE SITUATION-AN OPEN CAR WITH NO AGENTS ALLOWED ON THE

RUNNING BOARDS-there appear to have been missed opportunities for immediate evasive and protective action that might

have contributed to saving the President's life".

Since EVERYTHING mentioned above were Secret Service decisions, the buck stops with them as to why THEY failed to

protect their charge on 11/22/63...

CONCLUSION: Although I have a lot of respect for Philip Melanson's work in general, he clearly dropped the ball here.

While the book is well-written and well developed, there is so much of a reliance on secondary sources and/or official

documents TAKEN AT FACE VALUE, that if one didn't know better, they would swear they were reading a booklet put out

by the U.S. Secret Service's own Public Affairs Department. It appears that Robert did a "snow job" on Melanson; it would be

like writing a book on RFK's assassination based on the statements and documents of the LAPD alone! By interviewing many

former agents (several of whom were most definitely "hostile witnesses") and by looking at documents with an objective,

SKEPTICAL eye, I have achieved in my own book what Melanson fails to do: reach honest conclusions that Public Affairs,

personnel Miss Gordon, Mr. Snow, and Jane Vezeris may not like. I guess you can't bite the hand that feeds you, so to speak;

by going through the front door ("Public Affairs") in researching his book, Melanson missed the truth sneaking out the back

door. BOTTOMLINE: worth it for the other, non-JFK chapters. As I stated, Prof. Melanson loved my review --- here is his

response: "Thank you for your exceedingly detailed and knowledgeable review/ rebuttal on The Politics of Protection. It is

very precise and thought provoking. Clearly, it would have strengthened my analysis to have critically interviewed agents but I

and my publisher [Praeger, the same one that put out his 1990 work "Spy Saga"] decided that for the first organizational portrait

of the service, secondary sources would suffice. I was also enmeshed in more important (to me) investigative activities on the

MLK and RFK assassinations and did not attempt to get to the bottom of the Secret Service's JFK role but only to raise

questions about it. Again, thank you for sharing the impressive breadth and detail of your knowledge of these matters." Prof.

Melanson echoed the same sentiments to me at the COPA conference in Washington, D.C., in October 1996. I sincerely

appreciate his candor with me.

* * *

Copyright © 1998, by Vincent M. Palamara

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/VP/0047-VP.TXT

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

From Penn Jones "Forgive my Grief 111"...p..17..pub 1969..

"We first saw the uncropped James Altgens photograph in Harold Wiesberg's book "Whitewash".....which was published in 1965. We were puzzled at that time at the difference in the fast protection given the Vice President as opposed to the lack of action, except possibley a turned head, on the part of the Secret Service men charged with protecting President Kennedy. The Warren Commission cropped the Altgens picture so the American people could not see that Secret Service men assigned to protect the Vice President were leaving their car by the time President Kennedy had received the second shot... In the same picture, only two men guarding the President had even turned to look toward the School Book Depository Building.

The Vice President's backup car was driven by State Patrolman Joe H.Rich...Vice President aide Clifton C.Carter sat in the middle of the front seat with Secret Service man Jerry D.Kivett on Carter's right... Agent Len ( Lem) Johns and Warren Taylor were in the rear seat. Taylor on the left, had his door open when Atgens snapped his famous picture...( ** This is also seen in earlier Motorcade photos, and was so they say because there was not another convertible available that day .)

Johns, on the right, left the car and raced towards the Vice President, but the motorcade sped away and Johns was forced to hitchike to the hospital .(** after he checked out some of the areas in Dealey).

If one include Rufus Youngblood, three agents reacted to protect Johnson, while those charged with protecting the President only turned and gazed..""

For your information...

B....

Edited June 2, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

Oh goodie, and now I get to bump it again...hotdogsaway..

B..

PS :BTW...I am not editing again on the previous, scared to see what

it may turn into.. but did want to let you know, the single photo, is of SSA Lem Johns.

Thanks..

B

Edited June 2, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Charles Black]

Nice work Bernice

The more that one looks into this situation, it should be apparent, that as a result of several of what appear to be questionable or incorrect statements by Agent Kellerman, his own LACK of the correct action which should have been taken, and only HIS testimony that he told Greer to "go forward" (which for reasons previously mentioned by myself was unsound), that the "Blame" which is now being directed toward Agent Greer totally lacks any reasonable substantiation.

Yes ! Greer did "look backward" as an automatic reflex, which would no doubt have been duplicated by ANY "human being" driver, in a like situation.

I remain, if possible, even more convinced of my previous statements!

Charles Black