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Thomas Graves

A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

667 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


David,

Yes, that is an assumption on my part. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

But what about Stripling? They had a copy of Oswald's record there. Doesn't that indicate that schools do keep a copy of the record that they pass on to the next school?

BTW, Greg Parker claims that schools didn't keep school records... the school district did. And that that proves that Oswald's record at Stripling could not have been taken by the FBI.

 

Sandy,

I'd assume each state has it's own way of doing it.  Beauregard's records refer to a PS 44 in NY called "Byron Jr High"

CE1413 refers to ALL records on Lee Harvey in the New Orleans files and not once, other than the above mention, do these records refer to NYC school records which "should" have been sent...  As I understand, schools kept two sets of records, one perm and one that goes with the child....

Ask Greg what the source is of the info gathered by the "districts"...  
They didn't just pull the stuff out of their ears.....  they got reports on each child from the school admins themselves... who got them from the records of the teachers... grade cards, attendance cards, etc...  Maybe it's done differently in different parts of the world.  I grew up in NY and moved to CA in Jr High... 

Greg's one lynchpin in his arguments is how impossible it is for US citizens or its military to keep records with any level of accuracy... The US is founded on the minutia of detail and record keeping... yet school administrators don't know how many days in a school year?  Please.

 

47 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I agree... it's like trying to figure out Mexico City.   DJ: That a shout out?  :cheers

 

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5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John just sent me this census page from 51-52 that indicates a “Harvey Oswald” was born to a “Marguerite Ekdahl” on October 19, 1938.  (According to the WC, “Lee Harvey Oswald” was born on Oct. 18.)  Note John’s note about Marguerite’s use of the name “Oswald.”
 

1951:52_census.jpg?dl=0

Anyone care to make a theory about this?  Just a series of weirdly familiar mistakes?

 

I always look for innocent explanations first. But if what I see supports a working theory of mine, I'll make a note of that.

The mistake on the date is a simple error. I don't find anything sinister about that.

The use of the names "Harvey" and "Ekdahl" is odd. I have no explanation.

I can see a person making innocent LOOKING mistakes if they are trying to hide. For example, from creditors. Actually, I've seen that done. Use a middle name instead of a first. Use a maiden name instead of a married name. Even changing the birth date wouldn't hurt, so why not throw that in?

 

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57 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Beauregard's records refer to a PS 44 in NY called "Byron Jr High"


Jeez, I wonder where they got that??  Byron, I mean.

 

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13 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Jim, has John ever considered why John Pic took an angry attitude in his WC testimony?  One couldn't read his emotions from the transcript, but the WC counsel brings the attitude up to Pic and threatens Pic with the law and the military authorities if he doesn't cooperate.  This may be the only instance in the WCR where a witness receives this treatment.

David,

During Pic’s testimony, I remember Jenner going through a bunch of legalize at an oddly inappropriate time, but don’t recall it being particularly threatening.  Can you give me an example?  (It’s long testimony, as you know.)

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12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

BTW, Greg Parker claims that schools didn't keep school records... the school district did. And that that proves that Oswald's record at Stripling could not have been taken by the FBI.

At the time of the assassination, each of the various schools in the Fort Worth Independent School District stored student records.  Some years later, these collective records were transferred to district headquarters and placed on microfilm.  Former Stripling assistant principal Frank Kudlaty talks about this very issue at about the 2:50 mark in Part III of his interview with John Armstrong.

The amount of evidence for Lee HARVEY Oswald at Stripling school is substantial.  In addition to his W.C. testimony, Robert says his brother attended the school in two separate newspaper reports prior to the assassination.
 

Stripling_1959.jpg?dl=0

 

John Armstrong has a YouTube interview with Oswald’s Stripling classmate Fran Schubert.

At the time of the assassination, and at various times for more than a decade earlier, “Marguerite Oswald” lived at 2220 Thomas Place, right next to Stripling School.  What a coincidence, eh?

The principal of W.C. Stripling School in the late 1990s, Ricardo Galindo, told John it was “common knowledge” that Oswald attended Stripling.  John spoke to a number of other Stripling teachers and students who remembered Oswald at the school.
 

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11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


I agree... it's like trying to figure out Mexico City.

But the Pic characterization problem is, in my view, an isolated one that should have a simple answer. The problem is self contained... at least that's the case if it is accepted that primarily only one of the Oswalds had truancy problems, and primarily only one of the Marguerites had employment problems.

I can think of only five possible explanation for Robert's mischaracterizations:

  1. My "extended family" scenario.
  2. It is actually LEE (not HARVEY) who had the truancy problem. (This doesn't explain the Marguerite employment problem. But I paid less attention to Pic's testimony regarding her, so perhaps that's not really a problem.)
  3. The FBI went to town altering Pic's testimony. (This doesn't sound so absurd considering the real possibility that Pic's testimony was largely inconsistent with the official story.)
  4. Pic was extensively coached, and did an excellent job of lying.
  5. There were two Pics. (Maybe even two Roberts). And it was the fake one who testified.

Can anybody think of any other possibility that would account for Pic's wrong characterization of LEE and REAL Marguerite?

IMO, #4 would have been too difficult, #5 is too ridiculous, and #2 probably doesn't work for Marguerite. That leaves #1 and #3.

#3 certainly seems a lot more likely than #1. Though the alterationist likely would have had to be a professional story writer. Pic's testimony sounds very real to me.

Another possibility is a combination of #2 and #3. If it is LEE who was the truant one, that would explain Pic's characterization of LHO. (This is #2.) Any problem with Pic's characterization of Marguerite could be fixed through alteration. (This is #3.) Let's call this Possibility #6.


My favorites -- those that I think are feasible-- are:

      3. The FBI went to town altering Pic's testimony.
      6. It was LEE with truancy problems. And Pic's testimony regarding Marguerite was tweaked as necessary.

I know that there is evidence that the boy with truancy problem was HARVEY. But remember, there is also evidence that the boy was LEE. Is the evidence that it was HARVEY so great that we are sure it was he who was the truant one?

 

Not sure I’d make the assumption that only one of the Oswalds had truancy problems.  If Dr. Kurian’s recollection of Harvey telling him his “brother” substituted for him at school, and assuming that it could only have been a school-aged kid (like the other LHO), then its pretty clear both boys would have had truancy problems.

Regarding your numbered potential explanations….

  1. I just can’t think of much evidence for it.
  2. The decade-long pattern of Harvey being placed in and out of situations similar to Lee’s, always seeming to get just a “taste” of Lee’s life, including in the USMC, suggests Harvey would more likely have the truancy problem.  Hardly proof of that fact, though.
  3. We have proof that the FBI did alter sworn testimony, and so this is always my leading thought when I read testimony that disagrees with what I think happened.  If this is the case, it begs the question of why Hoover didn’t change Pic’s refusal to recognize clear photos of his “brother.”  Could it be because those were considered opinions rather than recollections?  Because Pic might have recalled the photo evidence and question altered testimony later?  Or just an oversight?  (The FBI did make a lot of mistakes in the cover-up!)
  4. Strikes me as dangerous to bring someone like Pic into the spy family game unless he was already a member.  And if he was, could the photo observations have been designed to throw us off that track. I’m inclined to reject this one but, as always, it had to be considered.
  5. Funny, but not likely. 

Can you give us more of your theory about the census roll above?  The hiding from creditors explanation had never occurred to me, but it sure is funny that she would settle on the Ekdahl name, the false birth date, and "Harvey Oswald" all at the same time.

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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John has just made the following update to the Two Marguerites page on HarveyandLee.net....

=============== QUOTE ON ===============

During the Christmas holidays of 1957 Marguerite Claverie Oswald (mother of LEE Oswald) worked at Paul's Shoe Store in Ft. Worth (see group photo).  In the early spring of 1958 she was working at the Clyde Cambell Mens store. On May 29, 1957 at the request of Leonards Dept. Store, the Retail Merchants Credit association reported that Marguerite Claverie Oswald was living in apt. #3 at 3830 W. 6th in Ft. Worth (where she had been living for the past year, since June, 1956). 
 

NOTE: Marguerite Claverie Oswald (3830 W. 6th) and the Marguerite Oswald imposter (4936 Collinwood) lived nearby each other in Ft. Worth from June, 1956 thru June, 1957. In early October, 1957 the Marguerite Oswald impostor and HARVEY were living at the Hotel Senator in New Orleans, directly across the street from the Pfisterer Dental Lab where HARVEY worked and became close to co-worker Palmer McBride. At the same time Marguerite Claverie Oswald (mother of LEE Oswald) was living at 3830 W. 6th, apt 3.

 

IN THE SUMMER OF 1958 THE MARGUERITE OSWALD IMPOSTOR SWITCHED IDENTITIES WITH MARGUERITE CLAVERIE OSWALD


One year later, in late spring 1958, Marguerite Claverie Oswald left Fort Worth and moved to New Orleans where she once again resided at 126 Exchange Place in the French Quarter. She obtained employment at the nearby Kriegers Dept Store and Holmes Dept Store where she sold women's clothes. While working she was visited by a few "old friends,"  including Mrs. Logan Magruder and Mrs. Benny Comenge. On May 17, 1958 a $1000 life insurance policy on LEE Harvey Oswald lapsed due to non-payment of premium. On June 10 the National Life and Accident Insurance company notified Mrs. Oswald of the policy lapse, by letter, addressed to her at 126 Exchange Place. Mrs. Oswald relayed the information to her son, LEE Oswald, in Japan. On June 30, while incarcerated in Atsugi, Japan, LEE Harvey Oswald applied to the company for reinstatement of the policy. He listed his address as US Marine Corps, MAG 11, MAC S-1, FPO San Francisco, CA., and listed his mother's address as 126 Exchange Place in New Orleans. LEE Oswald's mother never returned to Ft. Worth, and probably lived in New Orleans for the rest of her life. 

In the late spring of 1958, when Marguerite Claverie Oswald moved from Ft. Worth to New Orleans, the Marguerite Oswald impostor and HARVEY Oswald left New Orleans. HARVEY quit working for the Pfisterer Dental Lab, and he and his caretaker/mother left the Hotel Senator and moved to Ft. Worth. HARVEY wrote a letter to the dental lab and said that he was working for a shoe store in Ft. Worth. The letter was read to employees by the officer manager of the dental lab. The Marguerite Oswald impostor briefly worked for Washer Brothers, a family-owned department store with one location. On August 28 she began working for the King Candy Company and operated a booth at the Fair Ridglea Department Store in Fort Worth. On December 5, while at work, a jar fell on her head, allegedly causing injury. The Marguerite Oswald impostor claimed injury, hired an attorney, and was awarded workers compensation. She then applied for a hardship discharge to the US Marine Corps so that her "son" (HARVEY, now at MACS 9 in Santa Ana, CA) could return to Fort Worth and care for her. Following the summer of 1958 the Marguerite Oswald impostor, now living in Fort Worth, became the one and only "Marguerite Oswald," mother of the Lee HARVEY Oswald who "defected" to Russia in 1959 and was accused of killing President Kennedy in 1963. In the fall of 1958 the Marguerite Oswald impostor was now living in Ft. Worth, while Marguerite Claverie Oswald, the mother of LEE Oswald, was living in New Orleans. The switching of identities was now complete.
 

IN THE AUTUMN OF 1958 HARVEY OSWALD SWITCHED IDENTITIES WITH LEE HARVEY OSWALD


In the fall of 1958, after briefly working at a local shoe store, HARVEY Oswald left Fort Worth, re-entered the Marines, and was sent to Atsugi, Japan. On September 14, 1958 HARVEY Oswald boarded the USS Skagit for Taiwan, accompanied by Marines who never knew or were associated with LEE Oswald. On October 6, HARVEY Oswald was listed on Marine Corps Unit Diary #158-58 at Ping-Tung (North Taiwan). When later interviewed in Moscow by reporter Priscilla Johnson, HARVEY Oswald said, "After I finished high school I joined the Marines at 17.... I was in Japan, the Philippines, Indonesia, and Formosa (the Dutch name for Taiwan). While HARVEY was in Taiwan, LEE Oswald remained in Japan and made repeated visits to the Atsugi Station Hospital in Japan on Sept. 16, 20, 22, 23, 29, and was admitted to the hospital on October 6. On October 5 HARVEY Oswald left Taiwan and returned to Japan. In late October, 1958, HARVEY Oswald left Japan and soon arrived at MACS 9 in Santa Ana, CA, where he would remain until discharged in Sept., 1959. On November 2, 1958 LEE Oswald left Yokosuku, Japan aboard the USS Barrett and arrived in San Francisco on November 15. After leave, LEE Oswald was stationed at the Marine Corps jet base in El Toro, CA. According to Major William P. Gorsky, Assistant Provost Marhsall at the Marine Corps Air Station at El Toro, LEE Harvey Oswald was discharged from the Marines in March, 1959. HARVEY Oswald remained at the Marine Corps base in Santa Ana, CA and was not discharged from the Marines until Sept. 11, 1959.
 

THE SWITCHING OF IDENTITIES WAS NOW COMPLETE 


LEE Oswald was out of the Marines and his mother (Marguerite Claverie Oswald) was living at 126 Exchange Place in New Orleans. The Marguerite Oswald impostor was living in Ft. Worth, where she would remain for the rest of her life. Russian speaking HARVEY Oswald, now stationed in Santa Ana, CA, could now express his communist sympathies to fellow Marines and in doing so prepare for his upcoming "defection" to the Soviet Union. Soon, the CIA would successfully place HARVEY Oswald, a Russian speaking "American defector," inside the Soviet Union. 

================== QUOTE OFF ==================

 

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