Cliff Varnell Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) Sorry, Cliff. Didn't want to mis-characterize the theory. I just remember that you're one of its most vocal proponents. And I have no problem with the way you cite the available facts. Now, let's return this thread to the topic. Thank you, Mark. I apply a negative template to Oswald -- anyone who had any direct dealings with him had nothing to do with JFK's murder. Why did Jack Lawrence go back to his job at the car dealership an hour after JFK was hit and puke his brains out in the lavatory? Was it because he knew he was set up to take the fall given unknown contingencies? Why did LBJ have a nervous breakdown in the bathroom on AF1 (according to Gen. McHugh)? Was it because he knew he'd been set up to take the fall for JFK's murder given unknown contingencies? Why did the CIA freak-out as an institution over the Garrison investigation? Was it because their manipulation of Oswald made their people the perfect fall guys for the kill-Kennedy operation, while the actual killers would never receive anything more than a whiff of suspicion? Edited March 21, 2015 by Cliff Varnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 "I apply a negative template to Oswald -- anyone who had any direct dealings with him had nothing to do with JFK's murder." Interesting, Cliff. Your comment excludes from the set of plotters all the individuals known to have had direct dealings with Marina's husband. The Paines, for example. Your comment, if true, leads to one of three possibilities: [1] As Oswald performed on the stage of life, he pulled his own strings, bumping more or less randomly into various individuals. [2] As Oswald performed on the stage of life, his strings were being pulled by a puppet master in plain sight, but this puppet master had nothing to do with the JFK assassination. [3] As Oswald performed on the stage of life, his strings were being pulled by a puppet master who was hidden, but this puppet master had nothing to do with the JFK assassination. Your comment leaves open the possibility Oswald did kill JFK acting alone. I believe your comment opens up some possibly fruitful lines of discussion. Please consider using it to start a new and fascinating thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) "I apply a negative template to Oswald -- anyone who had any direct dealings with him had nothing to do with JFK's murder." Interesting, Cliff. Your comment excludes from the set of plotters all the individuals known to have had direct dealings with Marina's husband. The Paines, for example. Your comment, if true, leads to one of three possibilities: [1] As Oswald performed on the stage of life, he pulled his own strings, bumping more or less randomly into various individuals. [2] As Oswald performed on the stage of life, his strings were being pulled by a puppet master in plain sight, but this puppet master had nothing to do with the JFK assassination. [3] As Oswald performed on the stage of life, his strings were being pulled by a puppet master who was hidden, but this puppet master had nothing to do with the JFK assassination. Your comment leaves open the possibility Oswald did kill JFK acting alone. I believe your comment opens up some possibly fruitful lines of discussion. Please consider using it to start a new and fascinating thread. 4) There were two operations controlled by the puppet masters -- one to kill Kennedy, the other to kill the sheep-dipped Oswald. The JFK kill team performed flawlessly. Team Oswald screwed up and let the patsy survive to be captured. The JFK kill team involved CIA assets with military cover, or so I speculate. Team Oswald seems more directly tied to the CIA. Edited March 21, 2015 by Cliff Varnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Cliff, you write: "4) There were two operations controlled by the puppet masters -- one to kill Kennedy, the other to kill the sheep-dipped Oswald. The JFK kill team performed flawlessly. Team Oswald screwed up and let the patsy survive to be captured. The JFK kill team involved CIA assets with military cover, or so I speculate. Team Oswald seems more directly tied to the CIA." Cliff, As I see it, the central purpose of the assassination was to kill JFK. Not to blame his death on Castro or the Soviet Union. Someone IMO wanted JFK dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Cliff, you write: "4) There were two operations controlled by the puppet masters -- one to kill Kennedy, the other to kill the sheep-dipped Oswald. The JFK kill team performed flawlessly. Team Oswald screwed up and let the patsy survive to be captured. The JFK kill team involved CIA assets with military cover, or so I speculate. Team Oswald seems more directly tied to the CIA." Cliff, As I see it, the central purpose of the assassination was to kill JFK. Not to blame his death on Castro or the Soviet Union. Someone IMO wanted JFK dead. As I see it, the central purpose of the assassination was to build a SE Asia-to-Havana-to-the-world heroin pipeline. 3 men stood in the way of this plan: Diem, Kennedy, and Castro. When Oswald was captured alive the leaders of this drug gang (Skull & Bone Yale types) decided to jettison the blame-Castro angle and settled for just whacking JFK. Otherwise Kennedy was going to pull out of Vietnam and the endanger the prospects for the heroin pipeline. Or so I'd speculate. Edited March 24, 2015 by Cliff Varnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 ...There were two operations controlled by the puppet masters -- one to kill Kennedy, the other to kill the sheep-dipped Oswald. The JFK kill team performed flawlessly. Team Oswald screwed up and let the patsy survive to be captured. The JFK kill team involved CIA assets with military cover, or so I speculate. Team Oswald seems more directly tied to the CIA. In my opinion, Cliff, there is a flaw in your logic, based on haste. There were indeed two plots -- one to kill JFK and one to cover it up, yet these two plots were not controlled by the same people. Those who wanted to kill JFK also wanted to invade Cuba. Blaming a Communist for killing JFK was their last-ditch effort to invade Cuba. Their slogan was: OSWALD WAS COMMUNIST. Those who wanted to cover-up the JFK murder plot did not want to invade Cuba. That was a serious threat to National Security. Also, revealing the real JFK-Killers (the radical rightwing in the USA) would have probably led to riots in the streets, and perhaps even a Civil War in the USA during the Cold War -- a clear threat to National Security. Their slogan was: OSWALD WAS A LONE-NUT. Like most JFK Researchers since 1964, you have pushed these two Plots together into a mush, based on haste. Yet you haven't answered this challenge: (1) The Kill-Team of JFK said Lee Harvey Oswald was a COMMUNIST. (2) The Cover-up-Team said Lee Harvey Oswald was a LONE NUT. Please tell me your answer to this challenge. Regards, --Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 ...There were two operations controlled by the puppet masters -- one to kill Kennedy, the other to kill the sheep-dipped Oswald. The JFK kill team performed flawlessly. Team Oswald screwed up and let the patsy survive to be captured. The JFK kill team involved CIA assets with military cover, or so I speculate. Team Oswald seems more directly tied to the CIA. In my opinion, Cliff, there is a flaw in your logic, based on haste. There were indeed two plots -- one to kill JFK and one to cover it up, yet these two plots were not controlled by the same people. Those who wanted to kill JFK also wanted to invade Cuba. Blaming a Communist for killing JFK was their last-ditch effort to invade Cuba. Their slogan was: OSWALD WAS COMMUNIST. Those who wanted to cover-up the JFK murder plot did not want to invade Cuba. That was a serious threat to National Security. Also, revealing the real JFK-Killers (the radical rightwing in the USA) would have probably led to riots in the streets, and perhaps even a Civil War in the USA during the Cold War -- a clear threat to National Security. Their slogan was: OSWALD WAS A LONE-NUT. Like most JFK Researchers since 1964, you have pushed these two Plots together into a mush, based on haste. Yet you haven't answered this challenge: (1) The Kill-Team of JFK said Lee Harvey Oswald was a COMMUNIST. (2) The Cover-up-Team said Lee Harvey Oswald was a LONE NUT. Please tell me your answer to this challenge. Regards, --Paul Trejo Looks like McGeorge Bundy said Oswald was a Lone Nut. If Oswald had been gunned down within an hour of Kennedy everyone would have said he was a communist agent -- or so I'd speculate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Looks like McGeorge Bundy said Oswald was a Lone Nut. If Oswald had been gunned down within an hour of Kennedy everyone would have said he was a communist agent -- or so I'd speculate. Well, Cliff, please let me rephrase my question. How could the JFK Kill-Team justify spending MONTHS framing Lee Harvey Oswald as a COMMUNIST, only to abandon that claim on the day of the JFK murder, and start talking about a LONE NUT? It's not feasible, IMHO -- instead, the LONE NUT theory had to come from an outside (even hostile) group. Would you comment on that? Regards, --Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Looks like McGeorge Bundy said Oswald was a Lone Nut. If Oswald had been gunned down within an hour of Kennedy everyone would have said he was a communist agent -- or so I'd speculate. Well, Cliff, please let me rephrase my question. How could the JFK Kill-Team justify spending MONTHS framing Lee Harvey Oswald as a COMMUNIST, only to abandon that claim on the day of the JFK murder, and start talking about a LONE NUT? Paul, I don't think the JFK Kill Team had anything to do with Lee Oswald. The men who pulled the triggers on JFK and their direct handlers didn't need to know anything about Oswald. If they didn't need to know -- they didn't know. The Oswald Kill Team failed to murder Oswald in a timely manner so the major perps pulled the plug on Ozzie the Red Agent. What did the Oswald kill team need team know about the JFK assassination other than time and place? They only knew what they needed to know. It's not feasible, IMHO -- instead, the LONE NUT theory had to come from an outside (even hostile) group. Would you comment on that? Regards, --Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 I wish to put a merciful end to this thread. It has gotten off track. Oswald at no time acted on behalf of an intelligence service. He was observed by the CIA, FBI, and KGB. That's it. Everything else said about him is a projection of the sayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) I wish to put a merciful end to this thread. It has gotten off track. Oswald at no time acted on behalf of an intelligence service. He was observed by the CIA, FBI, and KGB. That's it. Everything else said about him is a projection of the sayer. Dear Jon, Whatever you say. Oswald was just an odd duck "Marxist" ex-Marine radar operator who had monitored the U-2 and had defected to Russia and threatened to commit espionage / sabotage while there but whom the State Department loaned money so that he could return to the U.S. with his Russian wife and who was unlucky enough to be working in the TSBD when JFK's limo drove by. Respectfully, --Tommy Edited March 30, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Tommy, Thanks for your comments. Here's why I wish to put an end to this thread. I asked, Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent? My hidden purpose was to share my knowledge of military intelligence operations, knowledge gained from the Intelligence School at Fort Huachuca, Arizona, and in Viet Nam. I failed in my purpose. I attracted knowledgable comments but not comments related to intelligence work. The knowledgable comments are valuable but do not relate to intelligence work. I failed because I asked others, who did not have my experience, to comment on matters through my lens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Tommy, Thanks for your comments. Here's why I wish to put an end to this thread. I asked, Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent? My hidden purpose was to share my knowledge of military intelligence operations, knowledge gained from the Intelligence School at Fort Huachuca, Arizona, and in Viet Nam. I failed in my purpose. I attracted knowledgable comments but not comments related to intelligence work. The knowledgable comments are valuable but do not relate to intelligence work. I failed because I asked others, who did not have my experience, to comment on matters through my lens. Dear Jon, What we have learned from you: Oswald was an odd duck who was not set up to be the patsy but was unlucky enough to find work at the TSBD and to be framed for the assassination, after the fact, by McGeorge Bundy and his pals. Respectfully, --Tommy Edited March 30, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Kelly Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Jon: I am not trained or experienced in intelligence matters. But I have investigation experience. I have read this thread with much interest; quite thoughtful. Its apparent (to me) that "Oswald" appeared to act on behalf of an intelligence service. As you have pointed out, there are many "red flags' that indicate Oswald fit a Covert Operational Personality profile. What I do think is that his legend was sheep-dipped very well. As you state, every CI-analyst in every country in the world recognized Oswald for what he was - a covert intelligence operator and an agent, asset or operative of some intelligence network. Perhaps that was purposeful. Oswald was also associated with a number of other covet operations; not just the Walker shooting or JFK murder ... as they say, it did not appear to be his first rodeo. But he was not apparently gathering information and passing it on to a case officer (either directly or via some intermediary) as a classic operative might. This implies that he was being used (as a "dangle") as opposed to a skilled operative. If he were such, he would not have allowed the operation planned and executed to be pinned on him. I also believe that there were other opportunities... other kill sites (and patsies) being developed, which are documented in the stories and literature. Chicago, Miami and Tampa to name a few. Oswald appears to be not the only game in town. Keeping that in mind, he was not the only choice. There were likely plenty of candidates who would fill the bill, fit the role. His use of the Hidell alias and the fake selective service card are suspicious, as are his Minox, use of trade-craft (particularly after the assassination), moving residences, library books, unexplained money, interrogation skills, and especially the paradox of his Russian speaking skills. His association with DeMohrenschildt and the Paines is suspect. All of these "markers" seem too obvious. I wish that I could add expertise and insight here, but it all seems either genuine or he was expertly sheep-dipped (the latter seems plausible). It seems intelligence (what little I know) is about using others, creating mis-direction, and making things appear as they are not. I don't think he was an "agent" (whatever that means) nor do I think he was an "officer" or acting in any official capacity ... he was simply being used, to be discarded or burned in a limited hangout at the right opportunity. A true enigma. Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Gaal Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) How could the JFK Kill-Team justify spending MONTHS framing Lee Harvey Oswald as a COMMUNIST, only to abandon that claim on the day of the JFK murder, and start talking about a LONE NUT? // Trejo ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Paul, I don't think the JFK Kill Team had anything to do with Lee Oswald. The men who pulled the triggers on JFK and their direct handlers didn't need to know anything about Oswald. If they didn't need to know -- they didn't know. The Oswald Kill Team failed to murder Oswald in a timely manner so the major perps pulled the plug on Ozzie the Red Agent. What did the Oswald kill team need team know about the JFK assassination other than time and place? They only knew what they needed to know. // Varnell ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Thank You Cliff = THERE ARE WORKERS (SHOOTERS) AND THEN THERE ARE THE CONTROLLERS. The State Dept worked against OZ in Mexico story because they secretly wanted Castro to exist (to create a Active Globalist USA). This explains some of the materials presented by DAVID JOSEPHS. Ive posted about the STATE DEPT/ CASTRO issue before. Anti-Castro statements by so-called leaders (controllers) are lies for the masses and lies that were told to the kill team. Workers are controlled by many means some of which are mental such as the carrot-stick fantasy of Cuban invasion. ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] Gibson, Donald E. Battling Wall Street: The Kennedy presidency. Progressive Press (January 15, 2014). _______Battling Wall Street: The Kennedy Presidency Part 1. Daily Kos, 2007-02-11. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/02/11/300743/-Battling-Wall-Street-The-Kennedy-Presidency-Part-1# Battling Wall Street: The Kennedy Presidency Part 2. Daily Kos, 2007-02-12. http://www.rbguy.dailykos.com/story/2007/02/12/301305/-Battling-Wall-Street-The-Kennedy-Presidency-Part-2 _______Audio: Interview. World Crisis Radio. (Washington, D.C.) "Donald Gibson on JFK Against Wall Street." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjBWciMcsok Edited March 31, 2015 by Steven Gaal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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