Did somebody screw up?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Bob:

We are not talking about Roger Craig and I don't think that Steve mentioned him.

From Post #1:

"The first three people who were on the scene when the rifle was found, Weitzman, Boone and Craig were all Sheriff's Deputies. In one way or another, they all identified it as a German make."

However, this is beside the point. What I am trying to stress is that anyone who claims to have read the calibre stamped on a Mauser rifle is full of beans.

How many times does one person have to be wrong before you begin to seriously question his work?

I don't know. While I believe Roger Craig may have been telling the truth about a good number of things, he certainly could never have read "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the barrel of an Argentine Mauser; at least, not one direct from the factory anyways. It is possible someone acquired an Argentine Mauser and stamped "7.65 Mauser" on the barrel themselves.

One theory I have is that Weitzman, at a glance, ID'ed the rifle as an Argentine Mauser Model 1891, simply because the protruding magazines on this Mauser and the Carcano are so similar. Why no one simply looked closely at the Carcano to read the "6,5 CAL MADE ITALY" stamped behind the rear sight is beyond me. Craig probably heard Weitzman and later embellished the story with the calibre stamping tale. I have often wondered if he was even on the 6th floor at the time the rifle was being examined.

[David Josephs]

I don't know. While I believe Roger Craig may have been telling the truth about a good number of things, he certainly could never have read "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the barrel of an Argentine Mauser; at least, not one direct from the factory anyways. It is possible someone acquired an Argentine Mauser and stamped "7.65 Mauser" on the barrel themselves.

Did you post this Robert?

[James DiEugenio]

What I meant was that Steve did not refer to his report.

There are three reports in evidence that it was a Mauser. And that does not include Craig.

In addition to that there is a KBOX broadcast 11/22 report that the rifle was a Mauser. (CE 3048)

Wade told a reporter after midnight in the wee hours and minutes of 11/23 that the rifle was a Mauser. (CE 2169)

On November 23, Weitzman filed his report that was very specific about he rifle ebbing a Mauser. (CE 2003, 63)

Boone also wrote a report in which he said the rifle was a Mauser. (Decker Exhibit, 5323 p. 508) Boone also filed a second report that day in which he said the same. (Meagher, p. 96)

Fritz also thought the rifle was a Mauser. (ibid)

Before the WC, both McCloy and Curry lied about this issue. They both said there were no police reports saying the rifle was a Mauser. (WC Vol. 4, p. 181)

Edited March 4, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Nice work David,

You should do an article on that one. I'm serious. Please do, a brief one.

And while we are at it, why is it OK to try and impeach Craig with what looks like incomplete information, yet not mention that the MC rifle did have the caliber and nation of origin on it?

Are we to think that all those guys could not read?

Edited March 4, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Robert Prudhomme]

I don't know. While I believe Roger Craig may have been telling the truth about a good number of things, he certainly could never have read "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the barrel of an Argentine Mauser; at least, not one direct from the factory anyways. It is possible someone acquired an Argentine Mauser and stamped "7.65 Mauser" on the barrel themselves.

Did you post this Robert?

Wow, how did I miss this one? I searched high and low and only found Argentine Mausers with the model on them and nothing with the calibre on it.

Did you actually find this in an old post of mine, Dave? That worries me.

It should be pointed out that the Germans never manufactured a 7.65mm Mauser for themselves, and that the 7.65mm Mauser was always known as the "Belgian" or "Argentine" Mauser.

Well, that makes it a whole new ball game, and Craig might actually have read "7.65" on the barrel. Good find, Dave.

[James DiEugenio]

Bob, check with your doctor, soon.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Ha ha. If I could just remember his name.

[Ron Ecker]

So if I understand this correctly, the rifle that Oswald supposedly hid on the 6th floor after firing it was originally said to be a Mauser. Later changed to an MC. But wasn't Oswald already linked to an MC (supposedly ordered from Klein's)? Where would he supposedly have gotten a Mauser?

[James DiEugenio]

Ha ha. If I could just remember his name.

Check your appointment book.

[James DiEugenio]

So if I understand this correctly, the rifle that Oswald supposedly hid on the 6th floor after firing it was originally said to be a Mauser. Later changed to an MC. But wasn't Oswald already linked to an MC (supposedly ordered from Klein's)? Where would he supposedly have gotten a Mauser?

Oswald likely never had either one. Because Marina first said that she never saw a scope on any rifle.

What Armstrong, Jospehs, and Moyer, and Jesus, and Gallagher are all saying is that the connections between Oswald and the MC rifle are all created up after the fact.

[Kirk Gallaway]

Bob:

We are not talking about Roger Craig and I don't think that Steve mentioned him.

From Post #1:

"The first three people who were on the scene when the rifle was found, Weitzman, Boone and Craig were all Sheriff's Deputies. In one way or another, they all identified it as a German make."

However, this is beside the point. What I am trying to stress is that anyone who claims to have read the calibre stamped on a Mauser rifle is full of beans.

How many times does one person have to be wrong before you begin to seriously question his work?

I don't know. While I believe Roger Craig may have been telling the truth about a good number of things, he certainly could never have read "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the barrel of an Argentine Mauser; at least, not one direct from the factory anyways. It is possible someone acquired an Argentine Mauser and stamped "7.65 Mauser" on the barrel themselves.

One theory I have is that Weitzman, at a glance, ID'ed the rifle as an Argentine Mauser Model 1891, simply because the protruding magazines on this Mauser and the Carcano are so similar. Why no one simply looked closely at the Carcano to read the "6,5 CAL MADE ITALY" stamped behind the rear sight is beyond me. Craig probably heard Weitzman and later embellished the story with the calibre stamping tale. I have often wondered if he was even on the 6th floor at the time the rifle was being examined.

There are pictures of Craig on the 6th floor. He said he was searching the NW corner of TSBD for a murder weapon and was 8 feet behind Deputy Sheriff Boone when he discovered the rifle.I suppose Boone's testimony would confirm or not. Craig's account begins 26:30 in link below.

All the news reports by all the major news outlets on Nov. 22nd reported that the murder weapon was a German Mauser. It wasn't until I believe the afternoon of the 23rd that they corrected it to MC. News reports of Mauser start at 32:00

https://youtu.be/1pGg-rS26c4?t=1763

[Steve Thomas]

Ron,

You wrote:

"But wasn't Oswald already linked to an MC (supposedly ordered from Klein's)? "

See Kirk's response above:

"All the news reports by all the major news outlets on Nov. 22nd reported that the murder weapon was a German Mauser. It wasn't until I believe the afternoon of the 23rd that they corrected it to MC"

That was the point of my original post. Over and above news reports (who would have gotten their information from law enforcement sources), the actual official documents drafted and filed by the law enforcement officials on the 22nd was that the rifle was of a different make and model.

Why the need for a change?

As L.D. Montgomery told the WC:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/montgom1.htm

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Well, first I reported to Captain Fritz, my partner and I and he assigned us to this position over there where the boxes were.

Mr. BALL. Where was that?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. It would be what--the southeast corner of the building--over there from where the shooting took place.

Mr. BALL. Well, was that before the cartridges had been found or afterwards?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, sir; they had been found when we got there.

Mr. BALL. When you got there they had been found already?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about the rifle, had it been found?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. No, Sir; it hadn't.

The rifle had to match the caliber of the shells that had already been found --- and it didn't.

And another thing...

If indeed there was a paper bag found up there on the sixth floor (and Ian Griggs has been pretty convincing that there wasn't), why didn't the shooter put the rifle back in the bag before he hid the rifle? It would have only taken a second to slip the rifle back in the bag and would have given him more time to make a getaway.

Have you ever seen that photo of L.D. Montgomery taking a bag out of the TSBD, and it's standing straight up in the air? What a joke.

Steve Thomas

[Ron Ecker]

So can anyone think of a reason why the conspirators would leave shells that didn't match the planted murder weapon? It was certainly a screw-up, but how in the world could it happen? The planting of a weapon and shells had to be one of the simplest plans in the whole operation.

[Steve Thomas]

Ron,

So can anyone think of a reason why the conspirators would leave shells that didn't match the planted murder weapon? It was certainly a screw-up, but how in the world could it happen? The planting of a weapon and shells had to be one of the simplest plans in the whole operation.

I think either:

a) somebody got their signals crossed; or,

the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing

I think the Dallas Police Department realized early on (as early as the 22nd) that they had a problem on their hands when the shells (that had already been filmed, and guarded, and entered into evidence) didn't match the rifle that was found.

Look at these two images:

I can imagine the panic that set in.

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

So if I understand this correctly, the rifle that Oswald supposedly hid on the 6th floor after firing it was originally said to be a Mauser. Later changed to an MC. But wasn't Oswald already linked to an MC (supposedly ordered from Klein's)? Where would he supposedly have gotten a Mauser?

Oswald likely never had either one. Because Marina first said that she never saw a scope on any rifle.

What Armstrong, Jospehs, and Moyer, and Jesus, and Gallagher are all saying is that the connections between Oswald and the MC rifle are all created up after the fact.

The Evidence IS the Conspiracy... Alyea's evidence has been attacked and discounted as an and all REAL EVIDENCE (which sadly winds up being the witnesses statements - the single most unreliable source of info) yet in this case, we see wherever there are conflicts with the physical evidence we begin to see shadows of what actually happened, where people actually were etc...

Ron -

Many have thought the 7.65 Mauser to be in this paper bag. I think these other images confirm that not being possible...

Years ago, when GMack used to still email me and discuss the case with me, he sent me the transcript of Montgomery's oral history which claimed he was holding a Venetian blind in the bag...

and here are a few to compare