SOUTH KNOLL PHOTO

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 3:54 AM, Roy Wieselquist said:

Ron,

It would be great if you could upload some of those pics from the South Knoll.  A while ago, I believe it was Chris Davidson who put some pictures from SK that his brother took.

Yes, Fiester broke new ground with her cones/ranges of possible shots from there.  What I think she had wrong that a head shot went in right temple and out the back of the head.  There WAS a left temple wound, seen by many, that she didn't know about.  I believe it was that shot that blew out the right occiput, and it was from SK.  And it was almost coincident with a softnosed/frangible bullet from behind the fence of the North "Grassy" Knoll.  Which probably hit over the right ear or around the right temple at about a 45 degree angle, and didn't exit anywhere, except maybe a piece of the nose out the back crown, a la Bob Harris.

Yes, undeniably back and to the left.  A steel-jacketed, high-speed round from SK, say around 3600 feet/second, hitting softer bone doesn't impart as much momentum to the target as a softer round hitting harder bone. 

I remember somewhere Nellie Connelly said she heard a sharp noise before she looked back and saw the President moving his hands up.  I believe that noise was either the supersonic crack or the bullet nicking the roof support, and that it went on to hit Kennedy in the neck and go out his right back at T3/T4 level.  That was while he was behind the Stemmons sign from Zapruder's perspective.

I believe the later shot from SK, around the extant 313, was excised from the Z-film.

So, two shots from SK, one before Z-200 and another around Z-312.

I shouldn't admit my technological ineptness but I'd like to upload at least 3-4 pictures that support what I'm about to post but I don't know how to from a sd card.  I can e-mail them to myself and create an attachment but "file" doesn't give me the option to create one from there.  I'm technologically frustrated.  But I'm seeking help.  Maybe in a few days I can show what I'm talking about.  

After looking around it I've come to believe if there was a shot from the South Knoll it was the throat shot.  The angle is key to me.  After rounding the corner from Houston, Elm curves back in the direction of but not towards the SK before it straightens out to go under the triple underpass.  It's close enough to straight on to hit JFK's throat but not his right temple unless his head is turned hard left towards Jackie.  Which it never is in Zapruder at this point.  IF a shot came from the SK it would have had to have been from close to the end of the triple underpass. 

[Chris Davidson]

If interested:

http://www.jfksouthknollgunman.com/index.php/08-2south-knoll/

This is not my creation.

[John Butler]

[John Butler]

This is about the witnesses saying shooting occurred in front of the TSBD.

1. One witness, Bonnie Ray Williams, locates the President at the intersection of Main and Houston Streets turning onto Houston St, when he heard two shots.  Sheriff's Office statement on 11-22-63.

2. Jackie Kennedy heard shots when she saw a blue-grey building ahead and to the left on Main Street.  This is from JFK Murder Jackie Kennedy Reveals All.  Rich Torne published this on May 10, 2017 and 11/29/63 The Making of the President 1960. 

3.  25 or, over half of the 50 original witnesses surveyed made statements that located the President turning into the intersection of Elm Street and Houston Street, or in front of the TSBD when shots were heard.  In later testimony, some changed their testimony or had their testimony changed to indicate the President had passed by their location thus indicating he was further down the street towards the Grassy Knoll.  Many witnesses saying about the same thing is not cherry picking the evidence.

4. Who were these people? 

5. Carolyn Walther- heard shot after limo turned onto Elm.  FBI statement 12-5-63.

6. Mrs. Pearl Springer- thought she heard a shot as the limo turned the corner onto Elm.  FBI statement 12-4-63. 

7. Arnold Rowland- said he was on Houston when the presidential limo began to turn on Elm he heard a noise he thought was a backfire.  Statement at Sheriff’s Office 11-22-63.

8. Garland Slack- when the vehicle turned onto Elm heard a loud retort.  Sheriff’s Office 11-22-63.

9. James Worrell- at the NE corner of the TSBD when heard shot the vehicle was 50 to 75 feet past him.  TSBD is 100 ft. wide.  FBI statement 11-27-63.

10. Robert Edwards- heard 4 shots as vehicle rounded corner of Elm St.  Sheriff’s Office 11-22-63.

11. Ronald Fischer- heard 3 shots as vehicle turned the corner of Elm St.  Sheriff’s Office 11-22-63.

12. Harold Brennan- eventually states he heard a shot a short distance from his location on the retaining wall at the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  The short distance implies in front of the TSBD.  Warren Commission 3-24-64.

13. Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St.

14. James “Junior” Jarman- At first, Jarman said much the same as Williams and Norman.  He later changed his testimony at the Warren Commission Hearing of 3-24-64 to hearing shots from low and to the left.

15. Elsie Dorman- thought shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St.  FBI statement 11-24-63.

16. Sandra Styles- In a statement made to the FBI on 3-19-64 she said she heard shots but, did not know where they came from and offered no other relevant information.  However, in a video published in October, 2017 she said as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection she heard 3 shots.   Reference:  Jobert Jefford Paulson video, Oct. 17, 2017- The Case of the Lady Who Did Not See the Assassin.

17. Vickie Adams- when the president’s vehicle was approaching and passing her location, she heard 3 shots.  FBI statement 11-24-63. 

18. Dorothy Garner- When the shots occurred the presidential vehicle was out of sight, obscured by trees.  This would be in front of the TSBD.  Shots came from the Court Records Building.  FBI statement 11-24-63. 

19. Mary Hollies- 2-18-64 statement to Detective Potts said she heard 3 shots as the motorcade turned into the intersection.

20. Betty Alice Foster- She heard something like fireworks after the President’s car turned down Elm St.  FBI statement 3-19-64.

21. Yola Hopson- heard two or more sounds / firecrackers when the presidential limousine was obscured by trees.  This would be in front of the TSBD.  FBI statement 3-19-64.

22. Geneva Hine- She saw the lead car turn into from Houston Street onto Elm Street.  The next one to turn was the presidential vehicle.  She heard shots as the next vehicle, the Secret Service car begin to turn onto Elm.  The presidential vehicle was passing by her location.  FBI statement 11-23-63. 

23. Lee Harvey Oswald- or Prayer Man was on Elm St. taking a photo of the President as he pasted.  John Martin film of 11-22-63.

24. Virginia Rackley (Mrs. Donald Baker)- When President Kennedy’s limousine immediately passed her location she heard 3 shots.  She said she was stationed about 30 feet from the main door of the TSBD at the end of the pedestrian line.  This directly contradicts the Zapruder film.

25. Linda Willis- said in her Warren Commission testimony taken by Wesley J. Liebler on July 22, 1964 that she was standing in front of the TSBD when he motorcade came by.  She initially said she heard shots there. 

26. Tina Towner- in a YouTube video, Witnesses to the JFK assassination:  Three Dallas Stories- LA Times by Brian van der Brug, she said things that indicate shooting occurred as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection and in front of the TSBD.

27. James L. Simmons- a Union Terminal railroad worker who said he was standing on the Triple Underpass when the assassination occurred.  He said he heard shots when the presidential limousine turned into the intersection of Elm and Houston and started down Elm.  3-19-64.

28. Bill Newman- in a Dallas Sheriff’s Office statement made on 11-22-63 said he was standing just west of the concrete standard (the monument) at the corner of the TSBD when he heard shots as the presidential limousine came toward him.  This means that the shooting occurred on Elm Street in front of the TSBD.

29. Toni Glover- in a YouTube video from the JFK Assassination Forum, Rare Interview With JFK Assassination Witness Toni Glover Who Was Ony 11 Years Old In 1963, Toni Glover said as Kennedy rounded the corner (corner of Houston and Elm intersection) his head exploded.

30. J. W. Foster- The Warren Commission Testimony of J.W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964.  J. W. Foster was a Dallas Policeman stationed on the Triple Underpass during the assassination.  He said in his testimony as the presidential limousine came onto Elm Street he heard a loud noise that sounded like a firecracker.

31. Earl Brown- was a Dallas Police Officer assigned to duty on the Stemmons railroad overpass over the Stemmons Expressway service road.  In his Warren Commission testimony of 4-7-64 he stated the presidential vehicle had made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.

32. Pierce Allman- said it pretty much happened in front of him.  He was standing on the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  He was about 10 feet front the vehicle when shots were fired.

33. Peggy Joyce Hawkins---she was on the front steps of the TSBD and " estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];

34. Yola Hopson- She was on the 4^th floor in the middle of the building in Scott-Forseman and when she heard shots she couldn’t see the presidential limo.  It was under the trees.  The shots did not sound as if they came from the building.  FBI statement 3-19-64. 

35. Stephen P. Wilson-  His view was obscured by trees when he heard shots.  FBI statement 11-30-63.

36. Mrs. R. A. Reid-  She was outside the building in front, when the president passed by, she heard shots.  FBI statement 12-24-63.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by John Butler

[Ron Bulman]

18 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

If interested:

http://www.jfksouthknollgunman.com/index.php/08-2south-knoll/

This is not my creation.

First thing I noticed is it's by Alek Hidell.  A couple of the pictures are almost identical to a couple I took last Sunday.  I could see the throat shot coming from the tree area but I wonder if it might not have come from right at the end of the of the triple over pass. It offers an even little bit better angle, and, crouching down next to the concrete post at the end of it I thought it offered some concealment for a right handed person.  All that could be seen from the mid-upper Elm area would be the right shoulder, part of the head, and the gun, for a few seconds, if someone was focusing on the area.  There was no one in this area in this Cancellare photo but considering it was the first shot a shooter would probably already be gone into the parking lot/a waiting vehicle or over the tracks.  Click on the image for full screen and use the right and bottom scroll bars to look around.

 https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=2053&fullsize=1

What I can't buy is a shot to the throat from this area going through the windshield.  That would have to be deliberate and the potential for deflection is too great.  I know Alek Hidell did all the measurements but between the limo pointing slightly down hill and looking at the first X from the end of the overpass it looks like one would have plenty of clearance over a limo windshield to JFK's throat.

I also can't buy a head shot from the first or second tree or the end of the overpass.  I know Ms. Fiester was credentialed and experienced, I have her book.  But the picture from it in this article shows JFK's head turned a good bit to the left and an entry wound in the center of the head.  I don't see his head turned left in any of the films or pictures.  I've read of a entry wound in the right temple hairline but not the top center.  It still seems to me JFK would have to have his head turned far to the left for that to be possible and, once again, I've never seen that on film or in pictures.  Last on this part, I still can't see back and to the left from such a shot.

The article also infers both the throat and head shot were from the same shooter.  I don't think so.  The throat wound was small per Dr. Perry (and Mc Clelland?), with no exit wound.  As in a small caliber mushrooming hollow point.  Many thought the first shot a firecracker, like the crack of a 22 from the South Knoll as opposed to ensuing louder shots?  The head shot blew out the back of his head.

Last, there was no one on the overpass from the center of Commerce to the South end of it, or for that matter any security/police on the South or North knoll's.  Was that by design or neglect?   Secret Service protocol called for no one on overpasses the president passed under except security.  Two of the people on it were supposedly cops, one at least with a questionable story about a passing train obscuring his view.  The guy on the far left in this picture looks like he has a helmet or hat on but he's leaning on the walk along the East side of the overpass.  Where a non existent train could not have blocked his view.  Was one possibly keeping anyone out of the South end of the overpass?

 

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Rick McTague]

On 11/3/2018 at 8:00 PM, Ron Bulman said:

  I could see the throat shot coming from the tree area but I wonder if it might not have come from right at the end of the of the triple over pass. It offers an even little bit better angle, and, crouching down next to the concrete post at the end of it I thought it offered some concealment for a right handed person. 

 

 

Ron,

The position you describe is about exactly where I was standing when I posted my recent picture from the vantage point of just to the south side of the last decorative pillar above Tague in your picture.  Easily concealed and quick egress to the SK parking area.

I think the trajectory from there would lend itself to a through the windshield frontal throat shot because of the steep incline of Elm.  Back up near the turn, the height of the limo would allow this.

Thanks

Rick

Thanks

Rick

[John Butler]

This is just a reminder.  I have posted this Hughes scene and others before.  There are 4 other media sources showing a train on the Triple Underpass.

[Ray Mitcham]

On 11/3/2018 at 8:35 PM, John Butler said:

One witness, Bonnie Ray Williams, locates the President at the intersection of Main and Houston Streets turning onto Houston St, when he heard two shots.

Citation, please. Williams said the first shot was fired as the car went past the front of the TSBD.

[John Butler]

Yes, he did.  But, he also said a lot of other things first.

Bonnie Ray Williams gave testimony concerning the assassination of President Kennedy on numerous occasions.   These were :

1. 11-22-63-  This was an Affidavit In Any Fact sworn at the Dallas County Sheriff’s Office Patsy Collins

2. 11-23-63-  Federal Bureau of Investigation FD-302 2 pages Barwell Odum and Will Griffin

3. 1-14-64-  Federal Bureau of Investigation  FD-302 Unknown agents

4. 3-19-64-  Federal Bureau of Investigation  FD-302 A. Raymond Switzer and Eugene F. Petrakis

5. 3-24-64- Warren Commission testimony, Vol. III page 161

6. 5-26-64-  Federal Bureau of Investigation  FD-302 A. Raymond Switzer and Eugene F. Petrakis

The FBI considered Bonnie Ray Williams as a Key Person in the investigation.  Bonnie Ray Williams was a star witness.  But, his testimony had to be adjusted over time so that he would be saying the right thing when Bonnie Ray Williams finally arrived at the Warren Commission hearing on 3-24-64 in Washington D.C.  The poor fellow was interrogated by the FBI until he got it right.

This should clarify Ray's concern.  However, based on past behavior it won't.

[John Butler]

From a Jackie Kennedy Interview:

JFK Murder Jackie Kennedy Reveals All

Rich Torne Published May 10, 2017

Jackie says:

“They were gunning the motorcycles, there were these little backfires; there was one noise like that; I thought it was a backfire.  Then next I saw Connally grabbing his arms and saying “No No No,” with his fist beating---Then Jack turned and turned---

All I remember was a blue grey building up ahead; then turned back, so neatly; his last expression was so neat; he had his hand out….”

The reference for this is 11/29/63 The Making of the President 1960.

People have a tendency to ignore or disbelieve what they don’t understand or what doesn’t make sense to them.  Jackie Kennedy said something strange decades ago and it just kind of went over people’s heads. 

The problem with this statement by Mrs. Kennedy is there is no blue-grey building down by “X marks the spot” in front of the Grassy Knoll.  Nowhere in the Zapruder film will you find a blue-grey building on Elm Street.  Everyone believes President Kennedy was shot in front of the Grassy Knoll because of the all-pervasive influence of the Zapruder film and other media.

Let me repeat that.  There is no blue-grey building on Elm Street that can be seen driving toward the Triple Underpass.  What was she talking about?

In fact, there is no blue-grey building on Elm Street or Houston Street in Dealey Plaza.  The Old Court House on Main and Houston has a first floor that is grey.  But, the overall impression is one of a red, brick building.  You really don’t notice that the first floor is grey when you look at the building.  OK, maybe some do notice.  I looked at the building for ages and never connected the first floor was grey until someone pointed it out.  It was simply a red brick building. 

There was a blue-grey building on Main Street just south of the Old Court House on the corner of Main Street and South Record Street.  This was the only blue-grey building in the area.  This blue-grey building is no longer there.  The area is now a park, the John F. Kennedy Memorial Plaza.  It vanished shortly after the assassination. The building was gone by at least 1966.  

Edited November 6, 2018 by John Butler

[Ray Mitcham]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Yes, he did.  But, he also said a lot of other things first.

Bonnie Ray Williams gave testimony concerning the assassination of President Kennedy on numerous occasions.   These were :

1. 11-22-63-  This was an Affidavit In Any Fact sworn at the Dallas County Sheriff’s Office Patsy Collins

2. 11-23-63-  Federal Bureau of Investigation FD-302 2 pages Barwell Odum and Will Griffin

3. 1-14-64-  Federal Bureau of Investigation  FD-302 Unknown agents

4. 3-19-64-  Federal Bureau of Investigation  FD-302 A. Raymond Switzer and Eugene F. Petrakis

5. 3-24-64- Warren Commission testimony, Vol. III page 161

6. 5-26-64-  Federal Bureau of Investigation  FD-302 A. Raymond Switzer and Eugene F. Petrakis

The FBI considered Bonnie Ray Williams as a Key Person in the investigation.  Bonnie Ray Williams was a star witness.  But, his testimony had to be adjusted over time so that he would be saying the right thing when Bonnie Ray Williams finally arrived at the Warren Commission hearing on 3-24-64 in Washington D.C.  The poor fellow was interrogated by the FBI until he got it right.

This should clarify Ray's concern.  However, based on past behavior it won't.

You are quite right it doesn't. He doesn't say that immediately after the turn from Main onto Houston, he heard 2 shots. They are two separate sentences. Elsewhere he says that he heard the two shots as the limo passed the TSBD. From his W.C. testimony.

"Mr. WILLIAMS. After the Presidents car had passed my window, the last thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody even maybe a motorcycle backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember."

 

From his statement made 11.23.63

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7461280

“There he joined two other men known to him as Hank and Junior. They were looking out of the window on the South side of the building approximately at the middle of the building and saw the car of President John Kennedy come North on Houston Street and then make a turn going West on Elm Street down into the triple underpass and passing directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository. While they were watching this car pass, WILLIAMS heard two shots which sounded like they came from right over his head."

Hardly time to adjust his testimony as it was made the day after the assassination. 

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Ray Mitcham

[John Butler]

Ray Meacham said:

"You are quite right it doesn't. He doesn't say that immediately after the turn from Main onto Houston, he heard 2 shots. They are two separate sentences. Elsewhere he says that he heard the two shots as the limo passed the TSBD. From his W.C. testimony."

The two sentences do not connect?  Are you serious?  Or, is just another of your little games where you play that you don't understand what's being said.  And, nit pick over something that is only in the twisted logic in your head.  It's like the argument in the Backyard Photos post.  You can't seem to accept an answer other than your own.  Where was Bonnie Ray Williams located?  He was just above the turn from Houston onto Elm St.  When the presidential vehicle turns from Houston and is on Elm he is directly above the vehicle.  Does that help?  

Did you read what I said?  Particularly, the note on William's 11-22-63 statement.

Let me spell it out for you.  Bonnie William's testimony changed over time.  This occurs in his statements to the FBI in 1963 and 1964.  You may not realize it but, you are making the argument for me by what you wrote. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Bonnie Ray Williams and His Altered Testimony

Here are a few cut and pastes from something I wrote earlier:

During the period 11-22-63 to 3-24-64 the only thing in his statements that remain fairly consistent is that the shooting he describes came from above him on the sixth floor.  What did not stay consistent was the number of shots fired and president’s location when shots were fired.  If his testimony of 11-22-63 was allowed to stand then there would be a different view of the assassination.  Read Bonnie Ray Williams statement of 11-22-63 paying attention to the underlined portion and the notes at the bottom.

The first time Bonnie Ray Williams talks to the FBI is on 11-23-63.  There are changes made to what he said just the day before at the Sherriff’s Office.  The location of the shooting has changed from the Houston Street intersection to the Elm Street intersection in front of the TSBD.  The number of shots remains at two in this FBI 302 below.

Let us go back to the Bonnie Ray Williams investigation by the FBI. The next change in his earliest statements comes on 3-19-64.  The number of shots that he heard and testified to as two shots now changes to three shots.

The next change to his testimony comes at the Warren Commission Hearing on 3-24-64.  I suspect his 3-19-64 statement was to prepare him for this Warren Commission testimony.  There are problems with the number of pages, initialing, and appearance of the document.

As far as I know people have concentrated on various peculiarities of Williams statements concerning his lunch, where he was located, at which window, when the motorcade went by, and what he said about Lee Harvey Oswald.  None that I know of mention his evolving story which to me is the most important thing in what he had to say.

 

 

“Mr. Williams. After the President’s car had passed my window, the last

thing I remember seeing him do was, you know — it seemed to me he had a

habit of pushing his' hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his

hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. And then the

thing that happened then was a loud shot — first I thought they were saluting

the President, somebody — even maybe a motorcycle backfire. The first shot —

there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was

closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember.

 

Mr. Ball. Now, was your head out the window?

 

Mr. Williams. I could not say for sure. I do not remember.

 

Mr. Ball. Did you notice — where did you think the shots came from?

 

Mr. Williams. Well, the first shot — I really did not pay any attention to it,

because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it sounded

like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded —

it even shook the building, the side we were on. Cement fell on my head.

 

Mr. Ball. You say cement fell on your head?

 

Mr. Williams. Cement, gravel, dirt, or something, from the old building,

because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was sitting next to me,

and he said it came right from over our head. If you want to know my exact

words, I could tell you.

 

Mr. Ball. Tell us.

 

Mr. Williams. My exact words were, “No bull xxxx.” And we jumped up.

 

Mr. Ball. Norman said what?

 

Mr. Williams. He said it came directly over our heads. “I can even hear

the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor.” But I did not hear the

shell being ejected from the gun, probably because I wasn’t paying attention.

 

Mr. Ball. Norman said he could hear it?

 

Mr. Williams. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the window

that Oswald shot from.”

 

 

As we can see, the FBI changed Bonnie Ray Williams’ testimony to be in accord with the Lone Gunman Theory in which Lee Harvey Oswald fired 3 shots from the 6^th floor of the TSBD in the correct order, which was one and then two in rapid succession, at President Kennedy killing him and wounding Governor John Connally.

This is not what he originally said.  What he originally said was that two shots were fired when the presidential limousine was in the Main and Houston intersection.  If the changed testimony is to be believed then no shots were fired during the assassination while the president was on  Houston Street.

You decide what Bonnie Ray Williams really said.  Keep in mind that the remains of his “chicken bone sandwich and pop” and his staying on the 6^th floor until 12:20 made him a prime suspect.  In 1963, a young black man in Dallas in Bonnie Ray’s situation would have said anything that the FBI wanted him to say.

This really has something to do with the South Knoll Photo topic.  It is a bit obscure but, not entirely unrelated when you figure firing angles and where the president was when the shooting began. 

[Ray Mitcham]

Quote by Butler.

 

"This is not what he originally said.  What he originally said was that two shots were fired when the presidential limousine was in the Main and Houston intersection.  If the changed testimony is to be believed then no shots were fired during the assassination while the president was on  Houston Street."

 

No he didn't, he said the presidents car turned into Houston from Main. He then said in a separate sentence there were two shots fired. He didn't say that the two shots were fired immediately after the turn. Learn to understand what people say.

[Chris Davidson]

Hughes Stabilized.

Main&Houston:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OS3lWWUZad1VYakk/view?usp=sharing

Edited November 9, 2018 by Chris Davidson