John McAdams and Judyth Baker

[Pamela Brown]

On 6/5/2017 at 2:16 PM, David Josephs said:

Thanks for clearing all that up Pam....

I for one am not a proponent of para-phrasing others...  invariably it gets done like a game of telephone and misrepresents the original sentiment.

Maybe you can help me and the others out as well...

Here is the entire bus route to Reilly from 4907 Magazine....   Does JVB ever say where her apartment is and which busline she took with Ozzie?

"19-year-old Baker arrived in New Orleans two weeks early due to UF’s new trimester system, but to her dismay, both Ochsner and Sherman were out of town. Her fiancé, who only knew that Baker had “plans to work” in New Orleans, was not due to arrive until May, at which time an elopement was planned, but in the meantime, Baker needed emergency funds. Unwilling to ask for help from her parents, she began temporary work at a Royal Castle near the airport. This restaurant was then being used by a government surveillance team to spy on the powerful Mafia leader, Carlos Marcello, whose office behind the Town & Country Motel was just next door. Robert Kennedy had forcibly deported Marcello, who had defiantly returned to the US and was now involved in a deportation court case that he would win on November 22^nd, the same day Kennedy was shot."

and

"Abandoned by her new husband, who immediately left town after their marriage without providing contact information, and with Ochsner and Sherman still unavailable,<!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[vii]<!--[endif]--> on May 4, 1963 Baker turned to Oswald after she was evicted in the middle of the night due to a police raid from her rented room. Baker told witnesses of her plans to enter Tulane Medical School in New Orleans in the Fall, unaware that she would spend the summer helping to develop a biological weapon using cancer under Ochsner’s and Sherman’s direction. "

On May 4, a Saturday, Oswald is still staying at 757 French in New Orleans - Lillian Murret's, his mother's sister and husband, until he found the place on Magazine via Myrtle Evans...  What did Oswald do for Judy in the middle of the night on May 4?  He didn't bring her to the Murrert's or the Evans'.  This is how Lillian remembers it.

When we were walking down the steps, I looked at him real hard like, and I didn't recognize him, but something made me ask him, "I know you, don't I?" and he said, "Sure; I am Lee Oswald; I was just waiting to see when you were going to recognize me." I said, "Lee Oswald, what are you doing in this country? I thought you were in Russia. I thought you had given up your American citizenship and gone behind the Iron Curtain," and he said, "No," he said, "I went over there," he said, "but I didn't give up my citizenship." He said he had been back in the States for quite a while, and that he had brought his Russian wife back with him ; so I told him I would help him look for a place; so I rang up this friend of mine, and I asked her, I said, "Vickie (Mrs Charles Maynard), do you happen to know where I can rent an apartment for a young couple with one little baby?" and she said, "Yes; Myrtle, I will take children. This is a little duplex," she said, and she said, "This is a nice little apartment, and I think they will like it," and I said, "How much?" and she said, "$65," and I said, "Well, he can't spend too much ; he is just getting a new job

Judy's "bio" continues

Baker documented how cover jobs were arranged for herself and Oswald, where they spent approximately half their time. Though she was a slow typist, Baker said arrangements were made to hire her as a secretary for former FBI agent William I. Monaghan, Wm. B. Reily Coffe Company’s Vice President of Security, Finance and Field Sales. After moving into nearby apartments the same week, Baker and Oswald rode the same bus to and from work together the next eleven weeks. Both Baker and Oswald began their employment on the same day, at a (then) small subsidiary company, Standard Coffee, owned by Reily, where their background reports were laundered and Baker was taught how to handle the Vice President’s secretarial duties. A week later, the two new employees were transferred together to Reily’s main company. WC documents support these facts

 

Judyth did frequently talk about how she and Lee took the same bus or trolley to work.  It sounded charming but I can't say I researched it at the time, as it also sounded like a lovely dramatic device, which she is an expert at devising.  She did say they got on at different stops. 

I am not finding an exact address for Judyth and Robert's apartment in NOLA.  That is odd, because Judyth is such a stickler for minute detail when it helps her cause.  In this case, I have to wonder if she might have withheld the address because people would be able to check on the building and/or the apartment, the drawing of which she claims is in LHO's address book (CE18).  I will keep on looking, though, just in case she mentioned it somewhere...

[Joe Bauer]

Ms. Brown, so you acknowledge that JVB's sister or sisters ( is there both a Debbee and a Lynda? )  said in documented interviews that JVB told them of her 1963 affair with Oswald in NO in 1964?

But along with this acknowledgement of Judy's sister ( s ) stating on record these affair verification comments you add that  "Judyth has a tendency to corrupt anyone who gets involved with her."

Judyth's sister has been corrupted by Judyth? And Anna Lewis as well? And Judyth's children who have acknowledged seeing Oswald's reported green bottle gift to her and accidentally discarding a personal note from Oswald to Judyth that was in it?

Before Judyth ever went public?  

Gotta give JVB credit for that talent no matter how detrimental to the JFK truth it may or may not be.

But over-all, yes, what an exhausting rabbit hole the JVB story truly has been and still is. 

I haven't created or contributed any huge commitment research to this forum myself and I agree that those that have deserve much more respect than those of us who haven't.

However,  hopefully any increase in neophyte postings and questions like mine are not too irritating and in some ways perhaps even help keep older original important threads by the real researchers re-energized for continued acknowledgement, study and debate. I hope so anyway.

I read so much here and that includes links to other works by almost every long time real research members. I read yours, Jim D's, Pat Speers, and so many others and like you so often advise ... with an open mind.

I couldn't stand up to any of you in a real research debate, but I feel so compelled to join in certain areas with serious, passion for the truth motivated questions despite my lack of research stripes ... partly because I am older and with some health issues and  just couldn't stand "standing on the reading only" sidelines any more.

Courage.

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Pamela Brown]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

KG  ...  I have never read of anyone personally addressing Ruby by the nickname "Sparky."

I "have" read some account ( Warren Commission or somewhere else?) where someone mentioned Ruby getting this nickname in his younger days and how he hated being called this.

I appreciate your clarification regards the quote in your earlier post.

But to me there is a significant difference in credibility in an actual quote referenced to Oswald by Judyth Baker implying she was "actually introduced" to Ruby with that quoted line from Oswald as it was happening....versus Oswald and Ferry telling Judyth "they wanted to introduce me to another Sparky, also a dog who couldn't control himself"   which clearly indicates they said this name "Sparky"  to her before she actually met Ruby.

To me, JVB's account of this is in the later context is more believable and not totally preposperous versus the first context.

And if Oswald had actually said "I want you to meet Sparky Rubenstein" while he was formally introducing him to Judyth, I think Ruby might have instantly punched Oswald in the face.

I would like to retract my reference to your earlier quote as "dishonest" and instead re-frame my view of it as a matter of differing opinions.

 

JB

Joe,

If you're interested, there is a lot of info to slug through in this thread...

This is another good JVB Ed Forum thread, where one of the discussions (if you can call it that) was about the "Sparky" issue.  

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by Pamela Brown

[Pamela Brown]

39 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Ms. Brown, so you acknowledge that JVB's sister or sisters ( is there both a Debbee and a Lynda? )  said in documented interviews that JVB told them of her 1963 affair with Oswald in NO in 1964?

But along with this acknowledgement of Judy's sister ( s ) stating on record these affair verification comments you add that  "Judyth has a tendency to corrupt anyone who gets involved with her."

Judyth's sister has been corrupted by Judyth? And Anna Lewis as well? And Judyth's children who have acknowledged seeing Oswald's reported green bottle gift to her and accidentally discarding a personal note from Oswald to Judyth that was in it?

Before Judyth ever went public?  

Gotta give JVB credit for that talent no matter how detrimental to the JFK truth it may or may not be.

But over-all, yes, what an exhausting rabbit hole the JVB story truly has been and still is. 

I haven't created or contributed any huge commitment research to this forum myself and I agree that those that have deserve much more respect than those of us who haven't.

However,  hopefully any increase in neophyte postings and questions like mine are not too irritating and in some ways perhaps even help keep older original important threads by the real researchers re-energized for continued acknowledgement, study and debate. I hope so anyway.

I read so much here and that includes links to other works by almost every long time real research members. I read yours, Jim D's, Pat Speers, and so many others and like you so often advise ... with an open mind.

I couldn't stand up to any of you in a real research debate, but I feel so compelled to join in certain areas with serious, passion for the truth motivated questions despite my lack of research stripes ... partly because I am older and with some health issues and  just couldn't stand "standing on the reading only" sidelines any more.

Courage.

 

Basically, yes.  Oh, the green glass story -- that is indeed charming, but there is nothing personal about it, and, of course, there is no note.  But it is tantalizing to say the least.

Being around Judyth seems similar to being around, say, a great dictator.  She draws people into her web and people can change, so it can be difficult to simply label them as 'truthful' or 'lying' because they have been living in a highly unusual alternative environment where this affair was supposed to have been kept secret for a long time, and then all at once the entire world knows about it.

If you look at someone like Albert Speer, who was Hitler's Reichminister of Armaments, for example, you see a life of someone who was brilliant with initially good intentions who got sucked into an undertow that cost him 20 years of his life (he was sent to Spandau prison).  And yet, it is largely because of Speer that Germany was not reduced to 'burnt earth' at the end of WWII, as Hitler commanded.  Speer countered that order.  How can you label him simply 'bad' or 'good'?  Not to make excuses, but these are the stakes of the game Judyth is playing.  From JVB's perspective, she is either the complete and utter replacement for the tawdry and mean-spirited Marina (Judyth's interpretation) or she is nothing but a fraud...if you were a family member or friend would you help her or not?

BTW, do you know that Judyth even went to Lee's daughters and tried to get them on board with her cause?  Plus, she wanted (or wants) to by the plot at Rosehill Cemetery next to his.  She will stop at nothing to replace Marina with herself.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Pamela Brown

[Joe Bauer]

I think that if I were a family member of Judyths, I wouldn't join her crusade unless I was absolutely convinced of it's full truth.

If that turned her against me..so be it.

I will read the links you provide. Thank you for them.

The green glass gift from Oswald didn't exist? And there was no note from Oswald to Judyth that was accidentally thrown out by JVB's children?

Damn...maybe I just want to believe her story because it is so romantic.

 

[Pamela Brown]

11 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

I think that if I were a family member of Judyths, I wouldn't join her crusade unless I was absolutely convinced of it's full truth.

If that turned her against me..so be it.

I will read the links you provide. Thank you for them.

The green glass gift from Oswald didn't exist? And there was no note from Oswald to Judyth that was accidentally thrown out by JVB's children?

Damn...maybe I just want to believe her story because it is so romantic.

 

The green glass exists.  The note no longer exists.  But the green glass by itself is really not direct proof of anything connected to LHO, except that it is definitely romantic...

[Pamela Brown]

I just remembered that Judyth said Susie's apartment was on Marengo Street in NOLA.

Here is an article about it:

http://alt.assassination.jfk.narkive.com/a3F7TTf2/other-residents-at-1032-marengo-street

[Pamela Brown]

On 6/5/2017 at 3:16 PM, Joe Bauer said:

When did Judyth tell Debbee about the affair with Lee (my paraphrase)?

Here is a link to a discussion about the DVD I am referencing that has an interview with Debbee.  There is also a link in the thread to the video on Youtube...

 

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

I just remembered that Judyth said Susie's apartment was on Marengo Street in NOLA.

Here is an article about it:

http://alt.assassination.jfk.narkive.com/a3F7TTf2/other-residents-at-1032-marengo-street

Thanks Pam...  I found this  http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ngarchive/JudyandLeeinNewOrleans.pdf

Do you recall anything different about this story of her eviction?  Nothing from Murret claims Oswald was contacted and/or gone the night of the May 3 or where he and Judy would/could have gone...  Can you shed any light there?

Judyth and Lee in New Orleans
John Delane Williams and Kelly Thomas Cousins
With Comments by Judyth Vary Baker

"Abandoned by her new husband, who immediately left town after their marriage without providing contact information, and with Ochsner and Sherman still unavailable, on May 4, 1963 Baker turned to Oswald after she was evicted in the middle of the night due to a police raid from her rented room. Baker told witnesses of her plans to enter Tulane Medical School in New Orleans in the Fall, unaware that she would spend the summer helping to develop a biological weapon using cancer under Ochsner’s and Sherman’s direction. "

On May 4, a Saturday, Oswald is still staying at 757 French in New Orleans - Lillian Murret's, his mother's sister and husband, until he found the place on Magazine via Myrtle Evans...  

How could Oswald know the night of May 3 where his apartment on Magazine was going to be?  He doesn't speak to Myrtle Evans until the 9th ???

May 4: By afternoon, Lee helped Judyth move into an apartment at 1032 Marengo, within walking distance from an apartment he said he was going to take for himself soon thereafter.

On May 4 Oswald had been in New Orleans at Lillian Murret's place since April 26.
Baker claims she was evicted due to police raids and had been working at Royal Castle (what this article doesn't say is that Royal Castle was a CIA front and JVB was "given" this job" until her Oschner time started...when she supposedly goes to work for another CIA front, Reilly Coffee)

Why would police raid "her rented room"... and where was this room in the first place given that JVB claims she meets up with Oswald on the 26th... Where were Oswald and Judy between April 26 and May 3?  If JVB has a room, why isn't Oswald just visiting her there during that week?  

Yet on May 4 a SUNDAY, she is able to rent an apartment without a job?  Does she have any money to stay at a cheap hotel?  Instead she calls Oswald - where, at Lillian's?  The whole episode with Robert Baker feels contrived to me...  your thoughts Pam?

DJ

April 20: Judyth arrives in New Orleans.
April 26: Judyth meets Oswald in front of the post office when Judyth went there to get a letter from her fiancé, Robert Baker.
May 3-4 Midnight: Judyth was evicted from her rented room due to a police raid and found herself on the streets. [Times-Picayune articles for May 4-5 describe these raids]
May 4: By afternoon, Lee helped Judyth move into an apartment at 1032 Marengo, within walking distance from an apartment he said he was going to take for himself soon thereafter. Prior to May 9: Judyth worked at a fast food restaurant, Royal Castle. She worked a total Dealey Plaza Echo Judyth and Lee in New Orleans Page 9 of 21 8/7/2006 of 24 hours at Royal Castle. She states that her stipend for her summer internship did not start with Ochsner for another two weeks (she’d come 2 weeks early to New Orleans due to the University of Florida being on the trimester schedule, unbeknownst to Ochsner). Therefore, she had to earn some money to pay for her rent at the YWCA, where she initially stayed.

May 9: Judyth and Lee were interviewed by A.T. Prechter at 640 Magazine;

[Pamela Brown]

5 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Thanks Pam...  I found this  http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ngarchive/JudyandLeeinNewOrleans.pdf

Do you recall anything different about this story of her eviction?  Nothing from Murret claims Oswald was contacted and/or gone the night of the May 3 or where he and Judy would/could have gone...  Can you shed any light there?

Judyth and Lee in New Orleans
John Delane Williams and Kelly Thomas Cousins
With Comments by Judyth Vary Baker

"Abandoned by her new husband, who immediately left town after their marriage without providing contact information, and with Ochsner and Sherman still unavailable, on May 4, 1963 Baker turned to Oswald after she was evicted in the middle of the night due to a police raid from her rented room. Baker told witnesses of her plans to enter Tulane Medical School in New Orleans in the Fall, unaware that she would spend the summer helping to develop a biological weapon using cancer under Ochsner’s and Sherman’s direction. "

On May 4, a Saturday, Oswald is still staying at 757 French in New Orleans - Lillian Murret's, his mother's sister and husband, until he found the place on Magazine via Myrtle Evans...  

How could Oswald know the night of May 3 where his apartment on Magazine was going to be?  He doesn't speak to Myrtle Evans until the 9th ???

May 4: By afternoon, Lee helped Judyth move into an apartment at 1032 Marengo, within walking distance from an apartment he said he was going to take for himself soon thereafter.

On May 4 Oswald had been in New Orleans at Lillian Murret's place since April 26.
Baker claims she was evicted due to police raids and had been working at Royal Castle (what this article doesn't say is that Royal Castle was a CIA front and JVB was "given" this job" until her Oschner time started...when she supposedly goes to work for another CIA front, Reilly Coffee)

Why would police raid "her rented room"... and where was this room in the first place given that JVB claims she meets up with Oswald on the 26th... Where were Oswald and Judy between April 26 and May 3?  If JVB has a room, why isn't Oswald just visiting her there during that week?  

Yet on May 4 a SUNDAY, she is able to rent an apartment without a job?  Does she have any money to stay at a cheap hotel?  Instead she calls Oswald - where, at Lillian's?  The whole episode with Robert Baker feels contrived to me...  your thoughts Pam?

DJ

April 20: Judyth arrives in New Orleans.
April 26: Judyth meets Oswald in front of the post office when Judyth went there to get a letter from her fiancé, Robert Baker.
May 3-4 Midnight: Judyth was evicted from her rented room due to a police raid and found herself on the streets. [Times-Picayune articles for May 4-5 describe these raids]
May 4: By afternoon, Lee helped Judyth move into an apartment at 1032 Marengo, within walking distance from an apartment he said he was going to take for himself soon thereafter. Prior to May 9: Judyth worked at a fast food restaurant, Royal Castle. She worked a total Dealey Plaza Echo Judyth and Lee in New Orleans Page 9 of 21 8/7/2006 of 24 hours at Royal Castle. She states that her stipend for her summer internship did not start with Ochsner for another two weeks (she’d come 2 weeks early to New Orleans due to the University of Florida being on the trimester schedule, unbeknownst to Ochsner). Therefore, she had to earn some money to pay for her rent at the YWCA, where she initially stayed.

May 9: Judyth and Lee were interviewed by A.T. Prechter at 640 Magazine;

Nice map!  It confirms my recollection that Judyth said she and Lee rode the same bus/trolley but got on at different stops. 

I recall Judyth talking about being evicted from that first apartment.  The raids may have been due to something slightly nefarious going on, such as prostitution (though I don't know how seriously they took that in NOLA back then -- or now, for that matter). Or it might have been drugs, or the Police were looking for someone who had come to the house.  

Judyth had money from Robert, I think.  Or it would seem logical that she might.  I haven't spent much time on the details of this, but I will check into it and see what I can come up with...

The issue with LHO knowing where his apartment would be before he found it is a very mysterious one.  Ironically, Dr. Adele Edison, who detests Judyth, claimed that she was told where LHO's apartment would be before he arrived by Dr. Rivera.  I haven't found the cite yet for that. I know she said that to me personally.  Here is a link to Dr. Edison's ARRB testimony: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arrb/index65.htm.  So I would keep an open mind on this topic.  

Edited June 8, 2017 by Pamela Brown

[Pamela Brown]

On 6/4/2017 at 0:15 AM, George Sawtelle said:

Pamela

The link shows the`sketch, pg 39. It's difficult to understand the sketch Oswald did  not provide notes. But on pg 292 of her book, "Me and Lee", she explains the sketch.

I'm not sure where the apartment is located. It was the` last apartment she had before leaving for Florida. Her landlady was`named Suzie.   

Hi George,

I just came across a link where Judyth talks about the diagram in Lee's address book: http://judythvarybakertruth.blogspot.com/2015/03/lee-harvey-oswalds-address-book-diagram.html

[Pamela Brown]

Here is another good link to info about Judyth: 

 

[Pamela Brown]

On 6/6/2017 at 9:58 PM, Pamela Brown said:

Basically, yes.  Oh, the green glass story -- that is indeed charming, but there is nothing personal about it, and, of course, there is no note.  But it is tantalizing to say the least.

Being around Judyth seems similar to being around, say, a great dictator.  She draws people into her web and people can change, so it can be difficult to simply label them as 'truthful' or 'lying' because they have been living in a highly unusual alternative environment where this affair was supposed to have been kept secret for a long time, and then all at once the entire world knows about it.

If you look at someone like Albert Speer, who was Hitler's Reichminister of Armaments, for example, you see a life of someone who was brilliant with initially good intentions who got sucked into an undertow that cost him 20 years of his life (he was sent to Spandau prison).  And yet, it is largely because of Speer that Germany was not reduced to 'burnt earth' at the end of WWII, as Hitler commanded.  Speer countered that order.  How can you label him simply 'bad' or 'good'?  Not to make excuses, but these are the stakes of the game Judyth is playing.  From JVB's perspective, she is either the complete and utter replacement for the tawdry and mean-spirited Marina (Judyth's interpretation) or she is nothing but a fraud...if you were a family member or friend would you help her or not?

BTW, do you know that Judyth even went to Lee's daughters and tried to get them on board with her cause?  Plus, she wanted (or wants) to by the plot at Rosehill Cemetery next to his.  She will stop at nothing to replace Marina with herself.

There is a bit more description of the 'green glass' in this early draft of Judyth's book (which she wrote with the help of Howard Platzmann).  The reference is in the section "Judyth and Lee" early-on: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf

[H.L Arledge]

On 6/5/2017 at 7:04 AM, Pamela Brown said:

Hi George,

Well, I read right past that discussion in M+L.  Thank you for pointing it out.  This was the NOLA apartment that she rented from Susie during the summer of 1963 with her husband Robert.  I don't know if there was an objective drawing (done by someone other than Judyth) of that apartment, so there does not seem to be any way to validate what she is saying about the WC exhibit.  This may be a very good example of how Judyth can take a piece of actual documentation and make it work for her and her story, but at this point I can't say that for sure.  I am wondering if the WC had any other explanation for this diagram being in LHO's address book?  

Pamela,

What is the address of this apartment?  I'm close enough to find the apartment and get this objective drawing if the apartment still exists.

Sorry, I just saw this...

"I am not finding an exact address for Judyth and Robert's apartment in NOLA.  That is odd, because Judyth is such a stickler for minute detail when it helps her cause.  In this case, I have to wonder if she might have withheld the address because people would be able to check on the building and/or the apartment, the drawing of which she claims is in LHO's address book (CE18).  I will keep on looking, though, just in case she mentioned it somewhere..."

Please do let me know if you find it. I'd love to investigate firsthand.

Thanks,
HL

Edited February 2, 2018 by H.L Arledge
Explained in the edit itself using italics

[David Josephs]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 8:47 AM, H.L Arledge said:

Pamela,

What is the address of this apartment?  I'm close enough to find the apartment and get this objective drawing if the apartment still exists.

Sorry, I just saw this...

"I am not finding an exact address for Judyth and Robert's apartment in NOLA.  That is odd, because Judyth is such a stickler for minute detail when it helps her cause.  In this case, I have to wonder if she might have withheld the address because people would be able to check on the building and/or the apartment, the drawing of which she claims is in LHO's address book (CE18).  I will keep on looking, though, just in case she mentioned it somewhere..."

Please do let me know if you find it. I'd love to investigate firsthand.

Thanks,
HL

1032 Marengo was the address if I remember correctly....  

Two spies who are not supposed to know one another take the same bus and sit together most every day...  Careless?

There isn't a bus driver or a passenger who corroborates these daily meetings....

I wrote an essay on the topic with the help of Jim DiG....   https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JudythBaker-DJ.pdf

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by David Josephs