One Last Thing Before Xmas Eve: 2nd Floor Lunch Room Encounter

[Robert Prudhomme]

Okay, I think it is time to counter the arguments Mr. Gilbride has put forth.

Mr. Gilbride's belief that the 2nd floor lunch room encounter between Baker/Truly and Oswald actually occurred is dependent on four things. In reading these four points, remember that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles, both in 3 inch heels, had to pass through the 2nd floor landing, undetected (and not seeing or hearing Truly and Baker) with nothing more than the vestibule door between them and Baker & Truly.

The points are:

1) That Roy Truly actually went through the vestibule door and allowed it to close behind him.

2) That the automatic closer on the vestibule door was a very fast closer.

3) That the vestibule door was completely soundproof.

4) That Truly and Baker were on the other side of the vestibule door long enough to allow Adams and Styles to pass through the 2nd floor landing, undetected.

Using these four points, I am going to demonstrate why the 2nd floor lunch room did not happen.

1) That Roy Truly actually went through the vestibule door and allowed it to close behind him.

Nowhere in Roy Truly's testimony does he state that he went through this door and allowed it to close behind him.

"Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23. [vestibule door]
Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?
Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.
Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?
Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald."

According to Truly, he "opened the door back and leaned in this way." From this, the brilliant sleuth Gilbride has deduced that Truly went through the door and allowed it to close behind him.

2) That the automatic closer on the vestibule door was a very fast closer.

Number 2 is actually tied in very closely with Number 4 (That Truly and Baker were on the other side of the vestibule door long enough to allow Adams and Styles to pass through the 2nd floor landing, undetected) so I will deal with 2 & 4 together.

As may or may not be known by all of you, the weak point in the 2nd floor lunch room encounter is that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were coming down the TSBD steps at the same time Roy Truly and Marrion Baker were supposedly going up the same stairs, yet neither of these two groups saw the other group passing by them.

To get around this, WC apologists have long maintained that Truly and Baker were in the lunch room, behind the vestibule door (which had to close itself after Truly went through it) long enough for Adams and Styles to pass, unseen and unheard, through the 2nd floor landing.

Once again, we go to the WC testimony of Roy Truly:

"Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
All right.
You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.
What did you see or hear the officer say or do?
Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor."

So, Roy Truly opens the vestibule door and leans in. Baker turns back to him (allowing Truly to see into the lunch room and see Oswald) and speaks four words "This man work here?" to which Truly replies "Yes". Then they left Oswald IMMEDIATELY and continued to run up the stairways.

Now, I personally don't believe Truly went any further than leaning in the open vestibule doorway, as he held the vestibule door open. But, for the sake of argument, let's say he did go through the door and let it close behind him.

How long was Truly in the vestibule? How long does it take to say four words, and get a one word reply? Three to four seconds? Could dams and Styles have made it through the 2nd floor landing in three to four seconds? I doubt it.

However, it gets worse for Mr. Gilbride. Not only was Truly's time in the vestibule brief (5-6 seconds tops), was the vestibule door closed for all of that time? I doubt it, unless the automatic door closer on the vestibule door was an EXTREMELY fast closer.

In other words, while Baker was asking Truly if Oswald worked there, the vestibule door would likely still be closing. This would make the door still open, and if Adams and Styles were passing through the landing, they would have no trouble hearing Truly and Baker, and Truly and Baker would have no trouble hearing them.

3) That the vestibule door was completely soundproof.

Let's be generous and concede to Mr. Gilbride, just for the sake of argument, that Roy Truly was in the vestibule long enough to allow the vestibule door to close behind him, before Baker asked him if Oswald worked there. In this scenario, Mr. Gilbride is relying on the vestibule door to be soundproof enough that the two groups will not hear each other.

Let's see what Truly has to say about that:

"Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it.

Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there?
Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.
Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember."

So, Truly comes back to the landing and "heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24."

If Truly could hear voices (or a voice) coming through the vestibule door, it could not have been anything close to being soundproof. And, as it is unlikely Baker lowered his voice at any time during this encounter, I don't believe Adams and Styles would have any trouble hearing him through the vestibule door either.

Now, it can be argued that the vestibule door had not fully closed behind Baker but, that makes the automatic door closer a SLOW closer, and if it closed slowly behind Baker, it would have closed slowly behind Truly, too, and Styles and Adams would have passed by an open door, and heard everything.

No matter how you slice, dice or make Julienne fries out of it, the 2nd floor lunch room encounter did not happen.

P.S.

Note that Truly gets a bit nervous at this point in his testimony:

"Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember."

I think Truly is beginning to realize the open/closed vestibule door is the weak link in their story.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

As if all of this is not bad enough, how did Baker actually see Oswald through the small pane of glass in the vestibule door?

Click on the diagram below to enlarge it.

If you take a straight edge ruler and line up Baker's position at the top of the stairs with the position Oswald was in when spotted by Baker, you will see that the vestibule door window was nowhere near Baker's line of sight, and that he could not have seen Oswald from the top of the stairs. As he was following hard on Truly's heels, he would naturally make a hard left turn as he left the stairs, and his line of sight would be even further away from being able to see Oswald.

Now, it can be argued that Baker was a good cop, and that he would have made a wide sweep of the landing in his search for bad guys. However, tere are a couple of things wrong with this argument.

First, Baker was in a hurry to get to the roof. As the 2nd floor landing was not a big room at all, would he make a wide sweep, or would he sweep the room with his eyes?

The second problem with the "wide sweep" argument can be seen in the photo below:

This is the view Baker would have had as he emerged from the stairwell onto the 2nd floor landing, although, judging by the angle of the wall, I believe the photographer is actually further away from the stairs than the diagram above shows us as Baker's position.

How did Baker make a "wide sweep" with all of those boxes stacked there?

[Richard Gilbride]

Part 1

I'm sorry, Robert, I won't have time to look through your material for several days.

Greg Parker, post #127- Richard's post #126 is so lacking in substance and yet so rich in smell, it could only be accurately described as a long wet passing of wind.

Parker's immaturity raises its vile head once again, as he offers up 9th-grade toilet humor.

post #135- Let the reader note that Greg does not respond to 5 of the 6 points raised in my post #131, which are the strongest arguments against the hoax. In true sophist fashion, he sidesteps them and constructs an alternative argument.

Fact: Baker wrote 3rd or 4th floor. Your opinion is that he was confused.

My opinion was based on a fact. As I stated in post #68 of this thread, in the Sept. 23rd affidavit "or third floor" was crossed out, i.e. 6 months after his testimony, which included 2 re-enactments, Baker was confused about the TSBD floor layout.

His confusion on Sept. 23rd gives a high probability that the error in the Nov. 22nd affidavit was due to confusion. Greg, on the other hand, gives no explanation as to why "or third floor" was crossed out. It is a piece of evidence that a hoaxer can't sensibly incorporate into his hypothesis.

Fact: Baker described a 165 pound 30 year old wearing a light tan jacket. Your opinion is that he was mistaken.

This is irrelevant to the 6 points I raised that rebut the hoax hypothesis. Look- Baker's story has big-time problems. But there isn't enough to certify a hoax. And there aren't simultaneous solutions to this set of equations. Either it happened, or it didn't. An extraordinary claim, like a hoax, requires extraordinary proof. And the hoax hypothesis doesn't survive the crucible of fire- it can't withstand the combined might of the aggregate. It is the height of narcissism to continue promulgating it.

Fact: Oswald allegedly claimed to buy one coke. Your opinion is that he bought two.

The real fact, Greg, is that Oswald was recorded in the Hosty-Bookhout report as claiming he "obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch." He made that reply specifically in regards to having eaten his lunch in the domino room.

We have no further information (put out while he was alive) as to whether or not he obtained a 2nd Coke after being confronted in the lunchroom by Baker. Does that not explain why Mrs. Reid stated in her testimony that she saw him with a full Coke?

Fact: Mrs. Reid stated Oswald wore a white t-shirt. Your opinion is that she was mistaken.

Again, this is irrelevant to the 6 points I raised. But let's look at what you are trying to say- that Reid's sighting got changed from a pre-assassination to a post-assassination one. Which does violence to her Nov. 23rd affidavit, which says she saw Oswald after coming back inside. Which does violence to her March 24 testimony, which adds that she was in the lunchroom until shortly before the motorcade. Do you care to state who was going which way, in your pre-assassination scenario? Because there's nothing normal about Oswald, coke in hand, walking through the central office toward the lunchroom while Reid is exiting it.

And, of necessity, you've now got to add in Leavelle (who took Reid's affidavit), Belin (who took her testimony), those "in-the-know" at the DPD and those "in-the-know" on the Warren Commission- all of them joining Mrs. Reid in the Truly-Baker mini-conspiracy to fabricate the lunchroom story. It doesn't work, Greg. Never did, never will.

Fact: The re-enactments were done over and over again until they could make the timing work. Your opinion is that they were done over and over again to "refresh" Baker's memory.

Again, irrelevant to the 6 points I raised. But Greg, sophist extraordinaire, spins my comment that the re-enactments helped refresh details that were omitted from the affidavits (and FBI reports) into the claim that I give no heed to the T & B timing problems- when probably nobody in the history of the research community has worked harder on the timing problems than myself.

(one post to follow)

[Terry Martin]

My apologies to you Terry. I don't drink either (20-plus years) and assumed you did from reading a post from you at the present ROKC forum about Australian wines.

But I don't think we're getting anywhere, other than talking past each other, and if you want to carry on believing the 5 items I presented favor a hoax, as opposed to the incident's reality, I can't do much about that. Either one or the other happened. As far as waste of time, I would contend the hoax hypothesis is the real waste- I guarantee there will be no objective-verifiable fruits from that line of thinking.

You offend me when you insult my understanding of physics. You may enjoy an essay of mine from 1998, up at jfkinsidejob.com, that should change your mind.

Apology accepted. And congratulations on 20+ years.

And you're right about us not getting anywhere. Your insinuation in statements like "if you want to carry on believing the 5 items I presented favor a hoax, as opposed to the incident's reality" shows that you have a closed mind to the subject. It's like flinging down the "denier" tag or the "buff" label, appears to show equanimity but belies condescension. IMO you could be more honest in your debate style; thinking that your opinions are the only viable ones seem inclined to elevate your prognostications alone as "truth".

When you presented your case before, I was interested to see how you would mathematically prove the second floor incident. All I saw was the same, tired, WC inspired rhetoric I have seen from Von Pein in the past. Then, when you were called out on taking liberties with some of the evidence, you got belligerent. Of course the entire presentation did not get off to the best possible start when you said you were planting your sword in the sand and going to prove all the others at the forum were imbeciles.

I have always thought the community could agree to disagree on aspects of the case because until they are proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, all we really offer are opinions. Pompous grand prix claim their own opinions trump those of others because... well, everyone else is obviously an imbecile.

IMO all aspects of the case as presented by the WC should be avoided. Like the Gospels, it is self-contradictory and baseless for founding any argument on. Name-calling and ad hominem attacks usually are defense mechanisms for those who cannot support their claims. This isn't to say that all such attacks are based in the same mechanism but it generally holds to be so.

And I am sorry you were offended about my comment about your understanding of physics. As you have degrees and inventions and such, I am sure you are quite proficient at the subject within its usual applications. Its use as applied to this case, and its promised dazzlement, failed to satisfy either its marketing or its intended purpose.

I disagree with your arguments but I am certain you will continue all the same. But please don't imply that all who cannot agree with your stand are stupid or ignorant. History has a long string of scientists who were badly misled, leading others astray as well. So do many other fields. Any theory set forth here may find similar ridicule in the future.

Until then, all theories, including yours are free for you to maintain. Allow others the same courtesy.

[Robert Prudhomme]

"Part 1

I'm sorry, Robert, I won't have time to look through your material for several days."

Take your time, Richard. I'll just keep bumping my post so it stays fresh in your mind.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Okay, I think it is time to counter the arguments Mr. Gilbride has put forth.

Mr. Gilbride's belief that the 2nd floor lunch room encounter between Baker/Truly and Oswald actually occurred is dependent on four things. In reading these four points, remember that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles, both in 3 inch heels, had to pass through the 2nd floor landing, undetected (and not seeing or hearing Truly and Baker) with nothing more than the vestibule door between them and Baker & Truly.

The points are:

1) That Roy Truly actually went through the vestibule door and allowed it to close behind him.

2) That the automatic closer on the vestibule door was a very fast closer.

3) That the vestibule door was completely soundproof.

4) That Truly and Baker were on the other side of the vestibule door long enough to allow Adams and Styles to pass through the 2nd floor landing, undetected.

Using these four points, I am going to demonstrate why the 2nd floor lunch room did not happen.

1) That Roy Truly actually went through the vestibule door and allowed it to close behind him.

Nowhere in Roy Truly's testimony does he state that he went through this door and allowed it to close behind him.

"Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23. [vestibule door]

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald."

According to Truly, he "opened the door back and leaned in this way." From this, the brilliant sleuth Gilbride has deduced that Truly went through the door and allowed it to close behind him.

2) That the automatic closer on the vestibule door was a very fast closer.

Number 2 is actually tied in very closely with Number 4 (That Truly and Baker were on the other side of the vestibule door long enough to allow Adams and Styles to pass through the 2nd floor landing, undetected) so I will deal with 2 & 4 together.

As may or may not be known by all of you, the weak point in the 2nd floor lunch room encounter is that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were coming down the TSBD steps at the same time Roy Truly and Marrion Baker were supposedly going up the same stairs, yet neither of these two groups saw the other group passing by them.

To get around this, WC apologists have long maintained that Truly and Baker were in the lunch room, behind the vestibule door (which had to close itself after Truly went through it) long enough for Adams and Styles to pass, unseen and unheard, through the 2nd floor landing.

Once again, we go to the WC testimony of Roy Truly:

"Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.

Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

All right.

You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.

What did you see or hear the officer say or do?

Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor."

So, Roy Truly opens the vestibule door and leans in. Baker turns back to him (allowing Truly to see into the lunch room and see Oswald) and speaks four words "This man work here?" to which Truly replies "Yes". Then they left Oswald IMMEDIATELY and continued to run up the stairways.

Now, I personally don't believe Truly went any further than leaning in the open vestibule doorway, as he held the vestibule door open. But, for the sake of argument, let's say he did go through the door and let it close behind him.

How long was Truly in the vestibule? How long does it take to say four words, and get a one word reply? Three to four seconds? Could dams and Styles have made it through the 2nd floor landing in three to four seconds? I doubt it.

However, it gets worse for Mr. Gilbride. Not only was Truly's time in the vestibule brief (5-6 seconds tops), was the vestibule door closed for all of that time? I doubt it, unless the automatic door closer on the vestibule door was an EXTREMELY fast closer.

In other words, while Baker was asking Truly if Oswald worked there, the vestibule door would likely still be closing. This would make the door still open, and if Adams and Styles were passing through the landing, they would have no trouble hearing Truly and Baker, and Truly and Baker would have no trouble hearing them.

3) That the vestibule door was completely soundproof.

Let's be generous and concede to Mr. Gilbride, just for the sake of argument, that Roy Truly was in the vestibule long enough to allow the vestibule door to close behind him, before Baker asked him if Oswald worked there. In this scenario, Mr. Gilbride is relying on the vestibule door to be soundproof enough that the two groups will not hear each other.

Let's see what Truly has to say about that:

"Mr. BELIN. All right. Number 23, the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it.

Now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there?

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember."

So, Truly comes back to the landing and "heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24."

If Truly could hear voices (or a voice) coming through the vestibule door, it could not have been anything close to being soundproof. And, as it is unlikely Baker lowered his voice at any time during this encounter, I don't believe Adams and Styles would have any trouble hearing him through the vestibule door either.

Now, it can be argued that the vestibule door had not fully closed behind Baker but, that makes the automatic door closer a SLOW closer, and if it closed slowly behind Baker, it would have closed slowly behind Truly, too, and Styles and Adams would have passed by an open door, and heard everything.

No matter how you slice, dice or make Julienne fries out of it, the 2nd floor lunch room encounter did not happen.

P.S.

Note that Truly gets a bit nervous at this point in his testimony:

"Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember."

I think Truly is beginning to realize the open/closed vestibule door is the weak link in their story.

bump

[Robert Prudhomme]

As if all of this is not bad enough, how did Baker actually see Oswald through the small pane of glass in the vestibule door?

Click on the diagram below to enlarge it.

If you take a straight edge ruler and line up Baker's position at the top of the stairs with the position Oswald was in when spotted by Baker, you will see that the vestibule door window was nowhere near Baker's line of sight, and that he could not have seen Oswald from the top of the stairs. As he was following hard on Truly's heels, he would naturally make a hard left turn as he left the stairs, and his line of sight would be even further away from being able to see Oswald.

Now, it can be argued that Baker was a good cop, and that he would have made a wide sweep of the landing in his search for bad guys. However, tere are a couple of things wrong with this argument.

First, Baker was in a hurry to get to the roof. As the 2nd floor landing was not a big room at all, would he make a wide sweep, or would he sweep the room with his eyes?

The second problem with the "wide sweep" argument can be seen in the photo below:

This is the view Baker would have had as he emerged from the stairwell onto the 2nd floor landing, although, judging by the angle of the wall, I believe the photographer is actually further away from the stairs than the diagram above shows us as Baker's position.

How did Baker make a "wide sweep" with all of those boxes stacked there?

bump

[Ed LeDoux]

We have to understand that Adams & Styles, in 3-inch high heels, could not have beaten Truly & Baker to the freight elevator area. You'd have to imagine the gals as faster than Wilma Rudolph & Wyomia Tyus to get them out of the warehouse unnoticed. Or imagine Truly & Baker as taking a 20-second-plus pause in the lobby, which they nor anybody else ever mentioned.

Is this the extent of your math course?
The longer it takes Adams/Styles (A/S) to get to the stairs the more likely she and Styles are to run into Baker/Truly (T/B) on those noisy stairs.
A/S + Time = T/B +Floors.
We can deduce the longer T/B take to ascend, the less floors they climb before running into A/S.
The longer A/S take to descend, the more floors T/B will have climbed before running into A/S.
What Gilbride would posit is a sloped line on a graph. Where either party being slow or fast shows up as a higher or lower floor (vertical) and speed in the horizontal. This line would need one exact point where both parties speeds and timing allow each, party of two, a chance to pass each other. Yet we saw no Adams and Styles reenactment with Truly Baker included.
Of course best to leave unknown variables out of an equation if you want a known conclusion.
This is all moot due to Prayer Man, first floor encounter, statements recorded, the accused's claims of innocence and vestibule location, no notes showing he was asked where he was during the shooting (like they knew and did not want that variable entered), the Marta Stroud letter, and a plethora of evidence, solid , tangible evidence,,,, not a fuzzy math equation and trickle down lunchroom logic.

We don't have any cause to corrupt the data given us- Baker gets to the steps at 0:22, Truly's only 10 feet from the steps, it's an adrenalized situation, they rush into the warehouse, Adams & Styles leave their 4th-floor window about 0:10, etc. Not to mention Adams & Baker seeing a large black guy downstairs, at different locations.

Unless the data given us was corrupted,,, and a innocent man was made to appear guilty.
Adams and Styles had their adrenals removed?
Being on the first floor would be a large negative factor to your lunchroom encounter equation. (AKA The Gilbride Mathematics and Lunchroom Synopsis)
Will Fritz and the prosecution machine were engaged in destroying any alibi Lee had. Did this thought cross your mind?
We have 19 other cases as an indicator the DA and Police were corrupt in 1963 Dallas.
Go scratch your head somewhere else, this has been solved. Its like you're Bowie, the Lunchroom is your Alamo... only no one cares and your knife is really dull. Large black guys were located throughout the first floor

Therefore, when Adams & Styles ran across the 2nd-floor landing, Truly & Baker had to be inside, in the vestibule & lunchroom. The hoaxers have a mental block that forbids this, because they read the testimony (III p. 225) with an extreme bias.

I see that you want to extend the time for A/S and compress the time for T/B.
That T/B speaking in the vestibule, which was more than four words, in your equation takes less time than the four words supposedly spoken in the lunchroom? Bias perhaps?
Did Adams run across the landing?
Wait wasn't she slowed due to the heels, or just one heel trying to slow her up postmortem.
Good god man which is it is she a rabbit or a turtle?

Baker and Truly spotted by Garner, after Adams/Styles had descended, deposits your math course in the circular file professor.
Because "..It doesn't work, Richard. Never did, never will..." Face it Adams ruined your bed time story. Styles following closely behind turns it into fairy tale territory. Two gals clomping along in their three inched shoes unheard and unseen, yet an employee on the other side of a wall and door is?

If you want to believe everything Baker said then where is your water cooler?

Marrion L. Baker and Bow Tie

Major Starvis Ellis, who rode in the front of the motorcade relayed his talks after the assassination with and he said

This officer (as told by ELLIS) stated he was directly under the building when the shots. were fired. They blocked the main, entrance and after the supervisor arrived he started up the stairs. The building was the Book Depository. Upon going up the stairs, he and the supervisor encountered someone on either the third or fourth floor. This person was drinking water from the water cooler — he did not stop because the supervisor advised the officer that the man was en employee. MAJOR ELLIS stated this officer later identified the man by the water cooler as LEE HARVEY OSWALD! ~ http://www.prayer-man.com/dpd/marrion-l-baker/

I have confirmation the water cooler was between men's and women's bathrooms on the second floor.
Baker mentioned a water cooler that he saw Oswald was drinking from. Thanks to Sean Murphy for this.
Where does this leave the LRE (lunch room encounter)? Well it gives yet another location which disputes the LRE/ Alamo.

Cheers~Ed

Edited January 28, 2016 by Ed LeDoux

[Greg Parker]

trickle down lunchroom logic.

That's gotta be worth 5 Stan's right there.

[Ed LeDoux]

Dawn is a lawyer alright, she mentions it consistently.

Does that mean she needs you to defend her?
If so what does this say about her lawyering?

Are you planning on being a client?
Perhaps you can trade some physics lessons for loyering, I'd have her steer clear of any mathematics you offer to tutor.

Seeing as you recently went through the forum could you post Greg's bad manners?
If you can't then we can all assume your claim is worthless.
What Dawn might think and feel really has no bearing on solving a murder.
I liked how you used her as a puppet in your dog and pony show to prove how despicable Mr. Parker is though.

Seemed like your introduction was a failure. Then you had to add that you were a mod. She must not have been aware of any of your work. She certainly wasn't impressed enough to overlook your association with Mr. Parker to further discuss it.

I'd like to say it's her loss, but maybe its the most cunning loyer tactic ever.
She is getting to Greg by snubbing Gilbride.
It only took a couple years and a few dozen threads to get there.
Good work counselor.

[Terry Martin]

Ed,

Are you implying premeditation in Dawn's response? It sounds like another wacky conspiracy theory to me.

Perhaps we should all sue each other for distracting the research community?

It couldn't be more of a waste of time than this particular post or some of those humorous ones by Mr. Graves.

[Thomas Graves]

Ed,

Are you implying premeditation in Dawn's response? It sounds like another wacky conspiracy theory to me.

Perhaps we should all sue each other for distracting the research community?

It couldn't be more of a waste of time than this particular post or some of those humorous ones by Mr. Graves.

Terry,

Thanks for the plug!

--Tommy

[Larry Hancock]

I'm still waiting for a discussion of Robert's post 139 and an explanation of why two guys hell bent on charging up those stairs (which means hard turns at each half stair level to get up the next)....would see

Oswald standing over by the coke machine....especially with all the between them and the door. That has never seemed right to me unless something refocused them them away from the roof and into the break room...

especially since Baker was pretty clear about wanting to get up to the roof ASAP... And of course if Oswald had just gone through the door and it was still swinging shut its hard to see how he would be

standing well inside with a soda or even facing back to the door. Robert's post and the photo make the issue very clear, would be nice to get back to it.

[Greg Parker]

Larry,

the debate on this ended long ago. Richard's take, much like McRae's "Prayer Woman" is merely the result of his own emasculation.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Greg Parker

[Larry Hancock]

I understand Greg and personally I have serious problems with several aspects of the official timeline and encounter....I just though Robert's diagram and photo might stimulate further discussions or even bring out some lurkers...would be nice to see some new faces posting.