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Micah Mileto

David Lifton teases Final Charade on the Night Fright Show

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3 hours ago, Rick McTague said:

MW, just focusing on this alone, what is your take on the multiple caskets / entries / conditions of (meaning the wrappings vs. body bag) JFK's body?

Rick,

I read that the Dallas coffin got busted en route.  So you have to ask yourself - big deal?  This is how Lifton has made his case for the thrumming copter theory. For example, and I know this is not going to answer your "switched coffins" concern 100%, but he does this throughout his writings.  Burkley, Kennedy's doctor, said he was with the coffin the entire time.

Undeterred, Lifton will then go to another source to "prove" Burkley was wrong.

I'm putting this here because there's another thread about the thrumming copter theory. I think this, too, is important info to consider about the scalpels at the ready theory that's Lifton's.

***

First you called me a schmuck and now because I changed my avatar, what I'm saying about your theory is rubbish?  That's fine, Dave.  It still doesn't change the fact that your body alteration theory is a flight of fantasy.

And though she's quite subtle in her writing (the story JDE posted on his site above), it looks like M. Cranor doesn't think too highly of your theory as well. Does that make her a schmuck as well?

I found this for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xel2lnpvY5Y

When was the body squirreled away by the Mad Doctors during this journey?  And please don't tell me it's during the swearing in.  That'd be about as plausible you saying Perry didn't cut through the wound. It just flies against all reason and plausibility.

And take a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZtWB-4s-R4

With all the people on board milling about mid-flight - and with them removing the seats to make a special place to put the coffin for the return to DC - do you really think someone would have hurriedly removed the body back there?  And where would they have put the body?  The Irish Mafia did not want to put the body in the cargo hold for this very reason.  They thought it would be undignified to put it down in the cargo hold, hence, the little private spot they found in the back.  And yes, it was actually convenient to park it there as well as it's pretty close to the rear entrance where it was brought in and taken off later in DC. Would any of them allowed the Mad Doctors to have removed the body and then thrown it down into the cargo hold? Or maybe find some very tight nook *somewhere* on the flight deck to stuff it in and hide it?

Come on, Dave.  You have to have a "decency" or two bone in your body to realize that this whole thrumming copter and scalpels at the ready theory holds about as much water as the Hardly Lee "Oswald and his Mom had clones from Europe 13 whole years before 11/22" fiction.

And I've said this before but don't mind saying it again.  I really truly think it's disgraceful of you to be trying to twist and turn Malcolm Perry's clearly stated record that he DID cut into the throat wound in order to further bolster your thrumming copter theory.  IMO - it's outrageously distasteful of you.

And one other thing - look how supporters here are even talking about how the coffin selection could be iffy? I mean the madness to support these outlandish theories just never stops.

***
Andrej - you're putting the cart before the horse. If the Mad Doctors couldn't get a hold of the body when there were so many upset, crying, angry people around guarding the body with their lives, why put numbers on an image of the throat wound trying to prove something that never happened in the first place?

And ask yourself - what about the back wound?  The autopsy photo clearly shows that that shot would not have exited with a downward trajectory through the throat wound. Right?  Yet, Dave, you and others who believe this theory think that the Mad Doctors did surgery to the body before the autopsy. So why didn't they work feverishly to somehow try to cover up the back wound? Or did they just forget to try to cover that wound up?

That's what I've never understood about the way people think about this case.  There's plenty of evidence to prove the case for conspiracy, including the photos and the Z film.  Yet, it's always got to be more. More conspiracy, more over-analyzing of things until you wind up with theories that are nothing but malarkey.

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4 hours ago, Rick McTague said:

 

MW, just focusing on this alone, what is your take on the multiple caskets / entries / conditions of (meaning the wrappings vs. body bag) JFK's body?

Thanks

Rick

Michael Walton Responded:

Rick,

I read that the Dallas coffin got busted en route.  So you have to ask yourself - big deal?  This is how Lifton has made his case for the thrumming copter theory. For example, and I know this is not going to answer your "switched coffins" concern 100%, but he does this throughout his writings.  Burkley, Kennedy's doctor, said he was with the coffin the entire time.

Undeterred, Lifton will then go to another source to "prove" Burkley was wrong.

I'm putting this here because there's another thread about the thrumming copter theory. I think this, too, is important info to consider about the scalpels at the ready theory that's Lifton's.

***

First you called me a schmuck and now because I changed my avatar, what I'm saying about your theory is rubbish?  That's fine, Dave.  It still doesn't change the fact that your body alteration theory is a flight of fantasy.

And though she's quite subtle in her writing (the story JDE posted on his site above), it looks like M. Cranor doesn't think too highly of your theory as well. Does that make her a schmuck as well?

I found this for you:

(Link deleted)

When was the body squirreled away by the Mad Doctors during this journey?  And please don't tell me it's during the swearing in.  That'd be about as plausible you saying Perry didn't cut through the wound. It just flies against all reason and plausibility.

And take a look at this:

(Link deleted)

With all the people on board milling about mid-flight - and with them removing the seats to make a special place to put the coffin for the return to DC - do you really think someone would have hurriedly removed the body back there?  And where would they have put the body?  The Irish Mafia did not want to put the body in the cargo hold for this very reason.  They thought it would be undignified to put it down in the cargo hold, hence, the little private spot they found in the back.  And yes, it was actually convenient to park it there as well as it's pretty close to the rear entrance where it was brought in and taken off later in DC. Would any of them allowed the Mad Doctors to have removed the body and then thrown it down into the cargo hold? Or maybe find some very tight nook *somewhere* on the flight deck to stuff it in and hide it?

Come on, Dave.  You have to have a "decency" or two bone in your body to realize that this whole thrumming copter and scalpels at the ready theory holds about as much water as the Hardly Lee "Oswald and his Mom had clones from Europe 13 whole years before 11/22" fiction.

And I've said this before but don't mind saying it again.  I really truly think it's disgraceful of you to be trying to twist and turn Malcolm Perry's clearly stated record that he DID cut into the throat wound in order to further bolster your thrumming copter theory.  IMO - it's outrageously distasteful of you.

And one other thing - look how supporters here are even talking about how the coffin selection could be iffy? I mean the madness to support these outlandish theories just never stops.

***
Andrej - you're putting the cart before the horse. If the Mad Doctors couldn't get a hold of the body when there were so many upset, crying, angry people around guarding the body with their lives, why put numbers on an image of the throat wound trying to prove something that never happened in the first place?

And ask yourself - what about the back wound?  The autopsy photo clearly shows that that shot would not have exited with a downward trajectory through the throat wound. Right?  Yet, Dave, you and others who believe this theory think that the Mad Doctors did surgery to the body before the autopsy. So why didn't they work feverishly to somehow try to cover up the back wound? Or did they just forget to try to cover that wound up?

That's what I've never understood about the way people think about this case.  There's plenty of evidence to prove the case for conspiracy, including the photos and the Z film.  Yet, it's always got to be more. More conspiracy, more over-analyzing of things until you wind up with theories that are nothing but malarkey.

--------------------------

-------------------------

 

Notice how Walton obsesses on forum memebers, and has hardly anything to say about the case itself, nothing that comes from himself. 

Edited by Michael Clark

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29 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Notice how Walton obsesses on forum memebers, and has hardly anything to say about the case itself, nothing that comes from himself. 

Do you have anything of value to add here? Do you have any answers at all about what I'm talking about here? Obsessing? I'm not the one going around posting about a changed avatar, as if that matters when we're supposed to be talking about this case. You're the ONLY person on this forum who has ever brought it up. Besides, what's it to you?

So tell me - from the time the hearse left Parkland - in broad daylight and around the general public - until the coffin was hauled up the steps into 26000 how did the Mad Doctors open up the coffin, take the body out, put it into a body bag and hide it - somewhere(!) - and not a single person in that caravan has ever come forward to say "Yes, I saw it happen" 54 years on?

Do you know? Or will you take old Dave's second and third generation hearsay as gospel...no questions asked?

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13 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

Do you have any answers at all about what I'm talking about here? 
 

All you really talk about, all you focus on, is the opinions and works of forum members who have found a place on your hit list.

So yeah, YOU, and who YOU really are, become as much a subject of discussion as the members upon whom you obsess.

So you reverted from a current photo to that os a child,  and changed your geographic location from what it used to say, to what you now claim it is, after deleting it. If it is allright with the moderators who grant exceptions for particular reasons, that is fine; but, the rules are as clear as is the purpose which those rules seve. I should have a better pic for my avatar. I provided one but it was not changed. I will have to see if I can do it myself.

Also, and this should have been the first thing addressed, YOU ARE WAY OUT OF LINE ADDRESSING David Lifton as "Old Dave". Jim DiEugenio brings that kind of grit to the forum, and gets away with it; but YOU should not assume such manners nor be given such latitude. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? WHO ARE YOU? I think I have some answers. I wonder if JD is clear on that.

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1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

Also, and this should have been the first thing addressed, YOU ARE WAY OUT OF LINE ADDRESSING David Lifton as "Old Dave". Jim DiEugenio brings that kind of grit to the forum, and gets away with it; but YOU should not assume such manners nor be given such latitude. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? WHO ARE YOU? I think I have some answers. I wonder if JD is clear on that.

You're beginning to sound more and more like Dave Josephs every day! Congratulations!

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1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

All you really talk about, all you focus on, is the opinions and works of forum members who have found a place on your hit list.

 

7 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

You're beginning to sound more and more like Dave Josephs every day! Congratulations!

You proved my point.

Suggestion. Try Offering something, anything, that has nothing to do with anyone else on the forum or in the research community. An original though from you would be impressive. Show us that you have something akin to imagination, creativity, insight or critical thinking skills.

 

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Hello Michael Clark:

After I first began posting on this thread, I was told (i.e., as in "warned") privately about Walton, and his general behavior; i.e.,  that he was a "know-nothing" who was a pest.  It was obvious, just from the way he responded to my posts, that he doesn't understand the case. Perhaps he's just slow-witted; or, as they used to say back in my college days, he was "someone whose elevator doesn't run to the top."  I don't want to waste even a minute on him.   I'm willing to entertain any competent criticism from anyone who is willing to deal with the evidence, or sensibly deal with the model of conspiracy that I am proposing.  That's why I wrote the post that I did; its a "preview" of sorts to a lot of "other" information that I have, and that will be in Final Charade. If someone has objections to any thesis that I have advanced, I'm interested in hearing about what those objections  are. For example, there are some people who are unwilling to believe that this was a body-centric plot; or unwilling to believe that any Secret Service agents could be involved; or unwilling to believe that anyone would "Plan in advance" to alter the President's body, in the aftermath of the shooting; or that the body could be removed from the coffin ("no matter what the evidence is" etc). I'm interested in becoming familiar with the psychological attitudes of those who follow the case; and, of course, what is perhaps most valuable of all is when someone points out a genuine error in my own analysis (which I would then immediately seek to correct); or perhaps can add a piece of evidence that I had neglected to take into account in the first place.

Thanks to all.

DSL

3/15/2018 - 10:50 PM PDT

Orange County, California

 

 

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1 hour ago, David Lifton said:

 If someone has objections to any thesis that I have advanced, I'm interested in hearing about what those objections  are.

David,

 

I remember talking to you about this several years ago, and you convinced me that what I was talking about wasn't feasible, but I don't remember what you said.

I was talking about the possibility of using the tunnels that Price talked about in his testimony and reports.

I was not able to find a time when Jackie left JFK's body long enough for a switch to be made at Parkland.

Here's what I posited back then:

"I got to wondering where a "pink/grey" shipping casket may have come from. I mean, what does a hospital do when a person arrives DOA at a hospital, or dies during surgery, etc? Do hospitals keep a supply of caskets in storage or something?


Dr. Price, Parkland Hospital Administrator was asked this. In his Warren Commission Price Exhibit 33, page 111 he wrote this:

http://www.aarclibra...ice_Ex_2-35.pdf


About this time a secret service man came to me and asked how we could move the president's body. He asked if we had a casket, a basket or anything that we could get to move the body immediately. I told him that we had nothing like that, but that we had several military installation nearby where we could get a casket, or we could get one from a local funeral director. He asked me to wait where I was, stating he would be back in just a minute,. I noticed that Steve had started out of the area with a secret service man and asked where he was going. He said to get a casket, and I told him to wait a minute as someone had just asked me about one and had asked that no further action be taken at that tine. Another man in the group who had been talking with Mrs. Kennedy and the other secret service agents near her came to me and asked that we get a casket of any kind from any place the quickest possible way. I then turned to Steve and relayed the request to him, and asked that he see what could be done about it.

 

I don't know who this "other man in the group talking with Mrs. Kennedy" was. If you needed a "pinkish/grey" shipping casket similar to ones used to ship servicemen home from Vietnam, what better place to get one than from a military installation?

 

Is this how the casket was removed?

 

On page 110 of this Exhibit, Price wrote:

 

While talking with Mrs. Nelson, one of the secret service men who had been bruised or had a minor injury came to me and asked if there were another way that the President and Mrs. Kennedy could be taken out of the building. I told him there was a tunnel exit and that if he would come with me, I would walk it off for him. I walked down to inspect the tunnel, then returned to the surgery area of the Emergency Room.


(Does anyone know about a Secret Service man who had been bruised or had a minor injury?)


While I was talking with him, (a Mr. Maher) another secret service man grabbed me by the arm and asked if I knew an alternate route the Johnson*s could use for an exit. I told him I had walked out an alternate route with another agent a few minutes ago and that if he would come with me, I would show him. We went to the Emergency Room elevator, one of the maintenance men was manually operating it and told him to take us to the basement....


I instructed the elevator operator to go to second (floor for an emergency delivery of blood),and then to take us on down to the basement. The secret service agent and I "ran" the alternate route, then when we got back to the Emergency Room area, he asked me to show him where the Johnsons were.


While all the attention was on Air Force One, could the shipping casket have been placed on Air Force Two, or the C-130 military plane that took the limousine back to Washington? I would have to find the radio logs for Air Force Two or the cargo manifest for the C-130 to find out more."

 

Do you happen to remember what you told me at the time?

 

Steve Thomas

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Steve's comment aims at the same point which popped up in my mind after viewing the way how a casket weighing 280 kg (with the body inside) could be moved up the stairs by 4 men only. The posture and the way how the casket was held by one of the two men on stairs in the photo posted yesterday seems incompatible with the burden of 280 kg. Which poses a question if the body was in the bronze casket while the coffin was loaded on AF1. I am sure that David has explored in his analyses the possibility of dissociating the body from the bronze casket already at Parkland hospital. 

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It's  good to see some here exploring the impossibilty of this theory happening.

And whatever  I  state here it's got nothing  to  do  with me. I  want  answers to the rebuttals  I've  posted.

Sadly  instead of defending his theory Lifton is now making it all about me and how terrible I am.

His thrumming  copter theory is an impossibilty  yet supporters still defend him and not a one  person  here STILL has not mentioned  how he's  now disgracefully trying to twist Perry's  words to create something  new.

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Michael Clark seems to be obsessed about Michael Walton, for some weird personal reason. Was he bullied at school by someone called Michael Walton? Did someone called Michael Walton pip him to first prize in the local fruit and vegetable growers' largest-pumpkin competition? I think we should be told.

Mr Clark writes:

Quote

All you really talk about, all you focus on, is the opinions and works of forum members who have found a place on your hit list.

But it is the other way around: it's Mr Clark, not Mr Walton, who does little other than write about forum members (or at least one forum member), while Mr Walton does little other than deal with the JFK assassination, the topic we are all meant to be discussing. Perhaps, instead of making yet another personal attack, Mr Clark could offer an opinion about the question Mr Walton raised:

Quote

So tell me - from the time the hearse left Parkland - in broad daylight and around the general public - until the coffin was hauled up the steps into 26000 how did the Mad Doctors open up the coffin, take the body out, put it into a body bag and hide it - somewhere(!) - and not a single person in that caravan has ever come forward to say "Yes, I saw it happen" 54 years on?

Exactly how, where, when and by whom was JFK's body switched, Mr Clark? And, more to the point, how much direct evidence (i.e. documentary evidence and witness testimony) exists to support the speculative notion that the body was switched? There isn't any, is there? There are no films or photographs that can be interpreted as showing the body being switched. As Mr Walton pointed out, not a single person claimed to have seen the body being switched. Don't you find the absence of direct evidence for the most fundamental part of Lifton's theory to be even a little worrying?

Here's another question for Mr Clark: why, in your opinion, would anyone even need to alter the wounds on JFK's body? The only reason I can think of, and the only reason Lifton could think of, is that the wounds were manipulated to disguise the fact that all the shots were fired from in front of JFK. Here's what Lifton had to say on the matter (Best Evidence, Signet edition, p.400):

Quote

to be able to shoot the President, retrieve the bullets, and insure that afterward it appeared the shots came from behind, the real bullets had to be fired from the front.

Unless all the shots had come from the front, there was no need for any sort of elaborate body-switching and surrogate surgery. Unfortunately for Lifton's speculative theory, we know for a fact that not all the shots came from the front. The shot which wounded Governor Connally hit him in the back and came out of his chest. That shot must have been fired from behind, not from the front, mustn't it? Perhaps Mr Clark could point out where in Best Evidence David Lifton discusses this rather severe problem for his theory. He doesn't mention it, does he? Isn't that, too, a little worrying?

For a concise but potent critique of Lifton's body-alteration fantasy, go to your bookshelves, take down your copy of David Wrone's The Zapruder Film: Reframing JFK's Assassination (University Press of Kansas, 2003), and turn to pages 134-138. Prof. Wrone concludes by making the obvious point that the only people to benefit from this sort of outlandish everything-is-a-fake nonsense are those who want to portray every critic of the lone-nut hypothesis as a tin-foil-hat-wearing lunatic.

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21 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Rick,

I read that the Dallas coffin got busted en route.  So you have to ask yourself - big deal?  This is how Lifton has made his case for the thrumming copter theory. For example, and I know this is not going to answer your "switched coffins" concern 100%, but he does this throughout his writings.  Burkley, Kennedy's doctor, said he was with the coffin the entire time.

Undeterred, Lifton will then go to another source to "prove" Burkley was wrong.

I'm putting this here because there's another thread about the thrumming copter theory. I think this, too, is important info to consider about the scalpels at the ready theory that's Lifton's.

 

 

Michael,

Thank you for answering my Q about the two types of caskets.  I also recall that the Dallas casket had to be modified to get it to fit into AF1. 

What is your take on the Bethesda staff receiving JFK's body in a body bag vs. wrapped in sheets as it left Parkland? 

In addition, I'm curious to hear your perspective on JFK's body being in the morgue having photographs / x-rays taken well before the Navy ambulance with the bronze casket arrived at the front of Bethesda?  The x-ray technician was carrying films to be developed when he saw Jackie and the others come in the front door.  To me, this is evidence that JFK was not in the bronze casket that left Andrews.  What do you think?

Thanks much,

Rick

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2 hours ago, Rick McTague said:

In addition, I'm curious to hear your perspective on JFK's body being in the morgue having photographs / x-rays taken well before the Navy ambulance with the bronze casket arrived at the front of Bethesda?  T

Rick, like I said, this whole theory is based on supposition and 2nd degree hearsay.  I know this does not answer your specific question about the body bag, but if you look around hard enough you can find critiques of what really happened and how it demolishes Lifton's thrumming copter theory.

So for now I'll point you back to the multiple coffins aspect of the story. Here's a quote and the link to it.  Yes, this is actually a critique of Horne's body alteration theory but really it's like we're talking apples (Lifton) and oranges (Horne) here. Like I said before, this whole Mad Doctor theory is outrageously implausible. As I said elsewhere, the photo of the back wound shows that the hole in the back does not line up with the throat wound, especially at a downward angle. So think about it - if this thrumming copter and mad doctor alteration theory really happened, why in the world didn't they bother trying to somehow cut up this wound to make it look like it lined up with the throat?

The answer is simple - because it never happened.  The body was not squirreled away on 26000; it was not stuffed into a body bag mid-flight and hidden (where? maybe in one of the bathrooms?); it was not thrown onto a thrumming copter parked behind 26000 as it pulled in in DC; and mad doctors did not greedily get a hold of the body and cut up all manner of alterations. And finally, Dr Perry DID cut through the throat wound trying to save the president's life.

The idea that something out of the ordinary occurred at Bethesda is buttressed by stories of multiple coffins being brought into the morgue on the night of the autopsy. At Parkland Hospital, Kennedy's body had been placed into an ornamental bronze casket. However, in A Coup in Camelot it is alleged that the body actually arrived at Bethesda in an aluminium shipping casket at around 6:35 pm. This means that when the bronze casket was brought into the morgue at 7:17 pm it was, unbeknownst to the FBI agents who accompanied it, completely empty. Or so we are told. Horne further alleges that for some reason the Dallas casket then “made a second entry that night...at 20:00 hours military time.”

Once again the evidence does not support the theory. As presented in the film, the idea that Kennedy's body arrived in an aluminium shipping casket is based on the recollection of Naval petty officer, Dennis David, who recalled helping carry one into morgue. Yet, as the summary of his ARRB interview states, David “emphasized that he had no direct knowledge, by observation, that President Kennedy was in the gray shipping casket...” (ARRB MD177) The reality is that, being as Bethesda was a morgue, there is no reason to believe that Kennedy's body was the only one to be brought there that night. In fact, FBI agent Francis O'Neill specifically recalled being told that one of the four drawers in the anteroom adjacent to the autopsy room contained the body of a child “that had died that day.” (O'Neill ARRB deposition, p. 57)

Perhaps more importantly, the claim that the bronze casket was empty when brought into the mortuary is belied by the testimony of both O'Neill and his FBI colleague, James Sibert. These two agents who helped unload the casket from the ambulance swore that they stayed with it until it was opened and saw with their own eyes the President's body taken out. O'Neill stated without hesitation during his ARRB deposition that there was “no time” from the time he first saw the casket “until the time it was opened and the body taken out that the casket was not in my view...” (ibid. p. 59) Similarly, when asked whether or not there had been any time between being unloaded from the ambulance and being opened that the casket had been out of his sight, Sibert responded, “I was there until it was opened.” (Sibert ARRB deposition, p. 45) There is, therefore, no basis for claiming that the casket was “certainly empty” as Horne does.

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/a-coup-in-camelot

 

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8 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Michael Clark seems to be obsessed about Michael Walton, for some weird personal reason. Was he bullied at school by someone called Michael Walton? Did someone called Michael Walton pip him to first prize in the local fruit and vegetable growers' largest-pumpkin competition? I think we should be told.

Ha, right.  It honestly feels like he's stalking me on here LOL and at one point he almost sounded like Josephs in one of his replies.  I actually did a double-take at his avatar to make sure it was Clark and not Josephs LOL

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14 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

While all the attention was on Air Force One, could the shipping casket have been placed on Air Force Two, or the C-130 military plane that took the limousine back to Washington? I would have to find the radio logs for Air Force Two or the cargo manifest for the C-130 to find out more."

 

Do you happen to remember what you told me at the time?

No Steve, it couldn't have. I mean the entire caravan was in broad daylight around dozens and dozens of people.  The wife was right there - the Irish Mafia was right there. Do you not think that if some diversion would have been attempted that ANY of these people would have been notified of noticed it?

Not a one person has ever come forward in 55 years to say, "Yeah, well, we pulled into Love and then, um, the hearse made a quick stop to AF2 and they hurried up and put the casket on it and then we circled back and then there was a decoy coffin and that's the one that was put on 26000. Yeah, I seen it."

I mean really Steve...that's a huge heap of speculation.

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