Where was Jean Hill and Mary Moorman when the assassination happened?

[John Butler]

Where did Jean Hill say she was when the assassination occurred?

Mary Moorman has always been consistent in her testimony on where she was at in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination.  Jean Hill and Mary Moorman’s statements began to diverge after the first day.  Initially their statements at the Sheriff’s Office gave roughly the same location, down Elm Street in front of the Grassy Knoll / Monument area.

• Jean Hill said in her Voluntary Statement at the Sheriff’s Office on November 22, 1963 “Mary and I were wanting to take some pictures of the President so we purposely tried to find a place that was open where no people was around and we had been standing half way down toward the underpass on Elm Street on the south side. We were the only people in that area and we were standing right at the curb.”

• It was important from the very first, within minutes of the assassination that she and Mary be in that location at the curb. 

• Jean Hill repudiated this statement later.  In her book The Last Dissenting Witness on page 32 gives an account of this statement.  She said that she was given a blank form to sign which she did.  This statement turned out later to be pretty much a copy of Mary Moorman’s statement. 

• Jean Hill says her statement is not her statement, but something prepared by the Dallas Sheriff’s Office.   This statement of hers makes it clear why her later statements diverge from her Voluntary Statement at the Sheriff’s office.

• On the day after the assassination, November 23, 1963, Jean Hill was interviewed by FBI agent Robert Lish.  She told Lish that “she was standing in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository observing the Presidential Party”.

• On March 13, 1964 which is 11 days before her WC testimony she was again interviewed by FBI agents E. J. Robertson and Thomas T. Trettis, Jr.  In their report they indicate the two women were opposite the TSBD main entrance.

• Harold Weisberg in Whitewash III saw this as the FBI agents editing her statement and spreading disinformation.  After all, the Zapruder film has them further down the road on the grassy area across from the pergola.  Both the Zapruder film and  Elsie Dorman film shows two women in this location claimed by Hill that do not appear to be Jean Hill and Mary Moorman.

   

  

   

• Isn’t it strange we have only two views of the SW corner of Elm and Houston, Zapruder and Dorman?

• Jean Hill’s Warren Commission testimony is important.  Because, months later after the assassination she is still saying she was across Elm St. from the TSBD.

• On March 24, 1964 Jean Hill was interrogated by Warren Commission assistant counsel Arlen Specter at Parkland Memorial Hospital.  SAIC Gordon Shanklin said she would be escorted there so she would be sure to be there.  This interview was recorded in 19 pages and eventually was placed in WC Volume VI, pages 205-223.  According to The Last Dissenting Witness, none of the verbal abuse, scorn, and ridicule directed at her Arlen Specter was recorded.

• The most important thing that came out of that interrogation was her true location in Dealey Plaza.  The FBI, the CIA agent, and later at the hearing Arlen Specter were trying to get her to agree that her location was down Elm Street in front of the Grassy Knoll.

• Instead Arlen Specter ended up with Hill, (Jean) Exhibit No. 5.  This places her across the street from the TSBD.  This sketch was classified Top Secret and was hid from the public.  This document was eventually stored in WC Volume XX, page 158.

 

 

• In her book she says she spent 15 months under surveillance and interrogation by Dallas FBI SAIC Gordon Shanklin during which he tried to get her to change her testimony.  

Is this enough evidence to say that there might be something wrong with what is shown in the Zapruder film about the SW corner of Elm and Houston?  I just discovered the You Tube video Magic Mary Moorman.  It’s been out there for years.  I no longer feel lonely with my suspicions of what is going on the Zapruder film.

[Robin Unger]

[Robin Unger]

Moorman and Hill approx standing location marked on Hill 5 Exhibit

I have also moved the location and angle of the TSBD in relation to Elm st.

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Jean Hill and Mary Moorman approx standing locations

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Robin Unger

[Paul Baker]

I don't consider Jean Hill a reliable witness. After all, in the immediate wake of the assassination she didn't mention seeing a man shooting from behind the picket fence. Many years later she did. It's also interesting to note that, according to the Zapruder film, as the limousine passed her and Moorman, while the latter had her camera fixed on the President (hence that famous photo), Hill was looking elsewhere, further along the motorcade behind the limousine. While her exact line of sight isn't visible on the Zapruder film at the time of the fatal head shot, it seems unlikely that she would suddenly divert her attention towards the picket fence just prior to the shot being fired. In any case, it's quite evident that she enjoyed the attention she received as a consequence of augmenting and adding to her story over the years. In The Last Dissenting Witness she claims that attempts were made on her life, which is patently untrue (why would anyone really want to kill her after her largely fabricated story was in the public domain, and if they did, how difficult would that have been compared to murdering the President in broad daylight amongst scores of witnesses?). She also claims to have been the first to come up with the term 'Grassy Knoll' (re: interview on Black-Op Radio), which is just more nonsense. That's an interesting interview, you can find it in three parts at the bottom of this page. In it her knowledge of the events of that day extend far beyond that which she could have attained from her position in Dealey Plaza at the time of the murder. Also listen to her voice wobble as she describes seeing the shooter. Some might say that her tone suggests she's upset, but I hear a tone that tells me she's lying. That's open to interpretation, of course, but if she wasn't even looking at the President as he was shot, how could she have seen the killer who would have had to be more-or-less directly in her line of sight?

So, while establishing her position isn't that difficult if you look at the available films and photos, I'm not sure it's particularly relevant with respect to her testimony and it's subsequent evolution.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Paul Baker
Anal retention

[Robin Unger]

Muchmore shows us where Jean Hill is standing, and where she is looking at the time of the head shot.

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Robin Unger

[Paul Baker]

Of course, thanks. I didn't think to look at Muchmore (which is slightly embarrassing). Her head does appear to turn, though it's not clear whether she's tracking the limo or one of the motorbikes. In Zapruder, as she leaves stage left, so to speak, she's not directed towards the President. In any case, I'd be interested to know whether any researchers take Jean Hill seriously. There's a relatively recent interview with Mary Moorman, in which she can't substantiate any of Jean's dubious claims about what happened during the assassination timeframe. I've just remembered another of Hill's claims, that she had a Polaroid of the TSBD taken during the assassination that was returned to her with the area of interest destroyed. It has to be noted that, in spite of her claims to the contrary, the post-assassination photographic record shows no evidence of her being accosted or harassed, as far as I'm aware. So can much of what she's said over the years be relied upon?

[David Von Pein]

FYI....

Interviews with Jean Hill and Mary Moorman....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOcDYyTDRna0VJT1E/view

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOUFpfcFp2YmVzZkU/view

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGONFFsaUtnSUxUMUE/view

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/05/mary-moorman-interview.html

 

[John Butler]

Robin, thanks for replying.  You’ve got it.  That’s exactly where most people see Mary Moorman and Jean Hill.  That’s where they are shown in photos and films.

The problem is, in the documentary evidence, Jean Hill claims she is across the street from the TSBD.   Arlen Specter’s sketch, Hill (Jean) Exhibit No. 5 places her across the street from the TSBD.   On the sketch Jean Hill’s location is A.  The presidential limousine’s location is X.  And, across the street in front of the TSBD is E, a row of people sometimes referred to as the mannequin people by Jack White.

Z frames 95 and 138 give a good look at what the sketch is about.  First, Z frame 95 shows clearly the two women in black that are in the area Jean Hill claimed she was in.  Z frame 138 shows A= Jean Hill,  X= President Kennedy, and E= the row of people on north Elm Street.

The problem is further complicated by Elsie Dorman showing a different set of women in the area that Jean Hill claimed to be in.

The two sets of women are occupying the same space at the same time.  That is physically impossible.  This is complicated by not showing Phillip Willis and Robert Croft.  Elsie Dorman shows 8 other people that are not in Zapruder.  

[John Butler]

This post started with Z frame 153.  It shows two women in black where Jean Hill claimed she was standing.  As an experiment, what would it take to turn these two women into Jean Hill and Mary Moorman.  Or, conversely to change Jean Hill and Mary Moorman into the two women in black.

First, Jean Hill would be the taller one.  You would need to remove her flat black hat (pillbox hat).  Second, you would need to change her hair color from grey to brown.  And, third paint her coat red.

These changes are not beyond the skills of artist/photo editors of that day.

Mary Moorman is easier.  Change her coat from black to dark blue.  Change the reddish hair to darker hair.  What would that look like?

My eyes and hands won't allow me to do detailed work.  This is my first time painting with a mouse.  More than likely it is the last.  It is good enough when you compare this to some of the artwork on Phillip Willis and Robert Croft in Z frame 157.

Edited January 12, 2017 by John Butler

[Ray Mitcham]

John, I don't understand what you are trying to say. Jean Hill and Mary Moorman don't appear in the Zapruder film until Frame 291, and they are standing where they told the W.C. they were standing. This tallies with their first day affidavit

"Mary and I were wanting to take some pictures of the President so we purposely tried to find a place that was open where no people was around and we had been standing half way down toward the underpass on Elm Street on the south side. We were the only people in that area and we were standing right at the curb."

Edited January 12, 2017 by Ray Mitcham

[Robin Unger]

The Hill 5 drawing shows the area between the corner of "Elm and Houston" and the "Overpass"

the drawing positions Jean Hill on the grass, at a point almost HALF WAY DOWN ELM ST.

why then are you concentrating on this area. ?

This is NOT almost half way down Elm st ?

 

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Are you seriously going to try and tell us that Mary Moorman snapped her  Moorman 5 polaroid from this location. ?

do you know how ridiculous that sounds ?

 

 

[Robin Unger]

Time to get back to some serious analysis, i have had enough of this foolishness.

[David Josephs]

Robin,

He sent me these studies directly, at my request, and I told him the same things.

Aint gonna learn what you dont wanna know...

And thanks for all the great gallery updates... DJ