Is that ... (Gasp) ... Billy Lovelady Talking With Gloria Calvery on the Steps?

[Sandy Larsen]

21 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Quote

Have you seen Gloria Jeanne Holt's high school photos?  (They've disappeared from the Forum.)  If you had, you would already know that Westbrook's "Calvery" is actually Gloria Jenne [sic] Holt.

And you feel confident that you can make such a positive identification of that woman in the Z-Film, even though you can only see her FROM BEHIND, with no facial features available to view whatsoever?

 

David,

Be careful... you are speaking from a position of ignorance. You haven't seen the photos that we have.

For example, there IS a photo where we see them clearly from the front.

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

30 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

 .....

And you feel confident that can make such a positive identification of that woman in the Z-Film, even though you can only see her FROM BEHIND, with no facial features available to view whatsoever?

Would you take such an identification to Vegas and bet the farm on it?

 

 

Yes I would, David.

Too bad you didn't see the photos and clips Sandy and I posted here about a year ago, and which have since disappeared.

 

--  TG

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

4 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

David,

Be careful... you are speaking from a position of ignorance. You haven't seen the photos we have.

For example, there IS a photo where we see them clearly from the front.

 

 

That's right, Sandy.  I'd forgotten about that one.  Thanks.

--  TG

[David Von Pein]

17 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

David,

Be careful... you are speaking from a position of ignorance. You haven't seen the photos that we have.

For example, there IS a photo where we see them clearly from the front.

But the Z-Film portion of any comparison is only showing the BACKS of the women. Not the front. So how can you be sure? Do you think you got a "positive match" on the clothing? Or the hair style? Or hair color? Or some other distinguishing feature?

I'm not saying you guys are dead wrong on your attempted IDing of the women on Elm. But I'm somewhat skeptical about declaring a "positive identification" of the Elm Street ladies, since we can't see any of their faces.

[Thomas Graves]

21 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But the Z-Film portion of any comparison is only showing the BACKS of the women. Not the front. So how can you be sure? Do you think you got a "positive match" on the clothing? Or the hair style? Or hair color? Or some other distinguishing feature?

I'm not saying you guys are dead wrong on your attempted IDing of the women on Elm. But I'm somewhat skeptical about declaring a "positive identification" of the Elm Street ladies, since we can't see any of their faces.

 

David,

That's because you evidently weren't following our posts when they "hot off the press," and now, unfortunately, the $400-to-replace photos that were in them are gone ...

--  TG 

 

PS  I do remember that a year ago Sandy and I convinced Andrej Stancak that Robin Unger's "Hicks" (and, now, Karen Westbrook's buddy "Calvery") was Gloria Jeanne Holt.

 Why don't you ask him?

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[David Von Pein]

Thomas Graves said:

I can no longer find that very short Darnell clip which was viewable on this forum about a year ago, but I can post two frames of it for you here.  Shall I do that for you, David?

Yes, please do.

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Thomas Graves]

22 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Yes, please do.

 

These two are the best ones for discerning Stella Mae Jacob's darker (Native-American) complexion.

 

Credit: James Darnell.  From Robin Unger's photographic pages at JFK Assassination Forum

 

 

And this one is the best one for comparing with Gloria Jeanne Holt's (the gal in the middle) high school photo, if I can ever figure out a way to get my "screen capture" of it uploaded to this thread and others ...

 

--  TG

Edited March 25, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

13 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

37 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

David,

Be careful... you are speaking from a position of ignorance. You haven't seen the photos that we have.

For example, there IS a photo where we see them clearly from the front.

But the Z-Film portion of any comparison is only showing the BACKS of the women. Not the front. So how can you be sure? Do you think you got a "positive match" on the clothing? Or the hair style? Or hair color? Or some other distinguishing feature?

 

David,

There were cameras on the south side of Elm that got pictures of spectators' faces and clothing. And there were other cameras that got useful photos.

Here's one example:

 

Left to Right:  (Native American) Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Jeanne Holt, and Sharron Nelson (ne Simmons)

These are the same women as the three nearest the Stemmons sign in this Z-frame:

 

 

 

The woman who Karen Westbrook says has red hair really has blond hair. This shows her blond hair better:

 

 

Thanks to Tommy we used to have high school photos of this blond woman. Her hair is not red and her name is not Gloria Calvery. Karen Westbrook is just plain wrong.

Now, it is possible that Gloria Calvery had red hair. Her B&W photos give the impression of brunette, but red is possible.

Tommy and I identified Gloria Calvery in the Z-film a year ago. And her son confirmed our identification to Bryan Doyle just recently. So yeah, I'd bet the farm on it.

 

 

 

 

[David Von Pein]

But, Sandy, how in the world do you KNOW that the woman who's crying in the above photo is the SAME woman who's standing just to the left of the woman in the blue scarf near the Stemmons sign in the Z-Film?

Now, maybe you ARE correct. I don't know. But it seems to me you're making a "tie-in" that doesn't necessarily have to be right. And the hair colors do look different to me. Westbrook, in her 2017 interview, certainly thinks that lady has RED hair, and so did Stephen Fagin in the interview. And it looks reddish to me too.

In any event, no matter who's right --- what difference does it really make anyway?

Edited March 25, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/24/2018 at 9:32 PM, David Von Pein said:

But, Sandy, how in the world do you KNOW that the woman who's crying in the above photo is the SAME woman who's standing just to the left of the woman in the blue scarf near the Stemmons sign in the Z-Film?

Now, maybe you ARE correct. I don't know. But it seems to me you're making a "tie-in" that doesn't necessarily have to be right. And the hair colors do look different to me. Westbrook, in her 2017 interview, certainly thinks that lady has RED hair, and so did Stephen Fagin in the interview. And it looks reddish to me too.

In any event, no matter who's right --- what difference does it really make anyway?

 

I think that even Bart believes they are the same three women.

They look the same to me.

 

[Thomas Graves]

21 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I think that even Bart believes they are the same three women.

They look the same to me.

 

 

Sandy and David,

 

What are the chances of finding two different groups of three women who are individually dressed the same way in two photos that are taken two or three minutes apart and in the same area, and who have the same individual hair color and hairstyles in both photos?

David, the difference it makes is this: If it can be shown that Gloria Calvery, whom Lovelady in his first day affidavit stated he started talking to on the steps right after the assassination (and right before Shelley and he allegedly went walking down Elm Street Extension to the railway yard and thence to the rear of the TSBD first floor), was standing close enough to the TSBD during the motorcade to be able to run there within twenty-five seconds (and be "captured" there in Couch-Darnell), then this casts into doubt Lovelady's and Shelley's claim that they walked down to the railway yard (at least when they say they did) because although the two men in Couch-Darnell who APPEAR to resemble them seem to be walking towards the railroad yard, they are doing so  WHILE OUR POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED CALVERY IS SIMULTANEOUSLY TALKING WITH SOMEONE WHO LOOKS AN AWFUL LOT LIKE LOVELADY ON THE STEPS.  The possibility that Calvery is talking to Lovelady on the steps in Couch-Darnell cast doubt on Shelley's and Lovelady's timing of events in their later statements (if not their mysterious actions, themselves) and lends more credence to Vicki Adam's estimation of how long it took her to walk down the wooden staircase to the first floor.  As you know, this is critically important as it bears on whether or not Oswald could have come down from the sixth floor to the second floor lunch room during the same period of time without being seen or heard by Adams and her colleague.

Calvery's being caught on the steps in Couch-Darnell so soon (20 to 25 seconds) after the assassination also reflects on how soon after the assassination Officer Baker entered the TSBD.  For the simple reason that Joe Molina claimed to have entered the building at about the same time Baker did, and said that he did so right before or right after (going from memory here) having encountered, "in the lobby," a near-hysterical Calvery and the gal who was with her (the Woman In White who appears to be pulling Calvery away from Lovelady in Couch-Darnell?).

As you know, if Baker entered the building shortly before or after Molina encountered Calvery and friend, and if Molina encountered them right after they had arrived at the steps (which we know from Couch Darnell was within 25 seconds of the assassination), then it makes more plausible the possibility that Baker (and Truly, who was near the front steps in Couch-Darnell) really DID arrive at the second floor lunch room as soon as they said they did ...

 

--  TG

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[David Von Pein]

FWIW....

A discussion re: Adams & Styles (and some others)....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-743.html

[Robin Unger]

45 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

FWIW....

A discussion re: Adams & Styles (and some others)....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-743.html

TSBD Employee "Sandra Styles" Butler

[B. A. Copeland]

On 3/24/2018 at 7:13 PM, Thomas Graves said:

 

Yes I would, David.

Too bad you didn't see the photos and clips Sandy and I posted here about a year ago, and which have since disappeared.

 

--  TG

 

How did they disappear? Who removed them? Do you and Sandy have them still to reupload?

[Michael Clark]

2 minutes ago, B. A. Copeland said:

How did they disappear? Who removed them? Do you and Sandy have them still to reupload?

Photobucket went Mockingbird