Is that ... (Gasp) ... Billy Lovelady Talking With Gloria Calvery on the Steps?

[Robin Unger]

Baker Timeline

 

[Robert Prudhomme]

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Baker Timeline

 

Ol' Gloria must have been a track star!

[Robert Prudhomme]

Further on Joe Molina, from his FBI statement of March 25, 1964:

"At approximately 12 :30 pm the car in which President Kennedy was riding passed the building going west on Elm Street . Just after his car

"disappeared from my view I heard three shots . I moved from my position on the steps in the direction of where the Presidential car was proceeding . I remained outside for a few moments and then went back inside the Texas School Depository Building . I left the building at approximately 2 :15 PM on November 22, 1963 and went home."

Hard to see how Molina could have met Calvery inside the lobby if he was loitering outside the TSBD just as Calvery and Baker are supposedly rushing into the TSBD.

Of course, "a few moments" can be a very elastic description of time, as Molina's WC testimony shows us:

" Mr. BALL. Where--what was the source of the sound? 
Mr. MOLINA. Sort of like it reverberated, sort of kind of came from the west side; that was the first impression I got. Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second longer than the second and third. 
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? 
Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just shocked. 
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. Yes, this fellow come to me---Mr. Williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "What can anybody gain

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by that"; he just shook his head and I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to .think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that."

If Joe Molina was only outside for "a few moments" following the shots, before entering the TSBD lobby, I wonder where he found the time to wander down to "where the grassy slope is"?

[Robin Unger]

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No

[Robert Prudhomme]

21 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No

Good catch, Robin. I missed that one.

[Bill Miller]

9 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear William,

Yep to the first part of the rhetorical question,

So you now claim Calvery was a native American even though she puts her race at Caucasian.  Interesting!

[Bill Miller]

2 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No

Quote

Good catch, Robin. I missed that one.

 

Molina doesn't recall seeing a police office enter the building with Truly, but two independent witnesses on the other side of the door and on the first floor did see Truly come through the door with a police officer..

[Alistair Briggs]

7 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

So you now claim Calvery was a native American even though she puts her race at Caucasian.  Interesting!

Bill,

to be fair, and just to avoid any confusion, Tommy didn't claim that Calvery was a native American, what he said was that (what had previously been identified as) Calvery was (actually) native American Stella Mae Jacob.

[Bill Miller]

1 minute ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Bill,

to be fair, and just to avoid any confusion, Tommy didn't claim that Calvery was a native American, what he said was that (what had previously been identified as) Calvery was (actually) native American Stella Mae Jacob.

Thanks for making that clear and its probably as likely as anything else.

[Ray Mitcham]

duplicate post

Edited March 2, 2017 by Ray Mitcham

[Ray Mitcham]

3 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

In the Calvery FBI 1964 Testimony she stated that after the assassination, she went back to her office, waited there for a while, then went back outside and stood out front for about 3-4 minutes, then went back inside to her office.

She then said that she left the building at 1:30PM and went home.

Robin, not to be nit picky, but she didn't exactly say she went outside. She said she went to the front entrance where she remained for two or three minutes.

[Robin Unger]

17 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Robin, not to be nit picky, but she didn't exactly say she went outside. She said she went to the front entrance where she remained for two or three minutes.

You are correct Ray ( front entrance )

[Sandy Larsen]

Can anybody point me to a thread that has good pictures of the spectators, or just to the pictures themselves? I'd like to try my hand at trying to identify Calvery.

 

[Robert Prudhomme]

22 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

 

Molina doesn't recall seeing a police office enter the building with Truly, but two independent witnesses on the other side of the door and on the first floor did see Truly come through the door with a police officer..

Two independent witnesses on the 1st floor? Oh, you must mean Eddie Piper and Troy West. Let's see what Eddie Piper told the warren Commission, shall we Mr. Miller?

From the Warren Commission testimony of Eddie Piper, May 14, 1964:

"Mr. BALL. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the floor? 
Mr. PIPER. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the shooting was who?

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Mr. PIPER. Mr. Truly and some fellow---I really don't know who it was; like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly.
Mr. BALL. Some fellow; how was he dressed?
Mr. PIPER. Oh, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Was he an officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer.
Mr. BALL. A police officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer.
Mr. BALL. Did he have a white helmet on?
Mr. PIPER. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running into the building.
Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do?
Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out."

LOL That's quite the witness you have there, Bill. Do you think Baker took his white helmet off on his way into the TSBD?

Now, let me see, I'll bet your other independent witness was Troy West, right?

Let's see what Mr. West had to say to the Warren Commission. From the Warren Commission testimony of Troy West, April 8, 1964:

" Mr. BELIN - Who was the first person you saw on the first floor after you - while you were eating your lunch? Someone came in the building? 
Mr. WEST - Yes; before I got through. The officers and things were coming in the front door. 
Mr. BELIN - Who was the first person or persons that you saw coming through there while you were eating your lunch? 
Mr. WEST - Well, that was the police. 
Mr. BELIN - A police officer? 
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BELIN - Anyone else? 
Mr. WEST - I guess it was a bunch of them, I guess, FBI men, and just a crowed of them coming in there. 
Mr. BELIN - Did you see Roy Truly coming in at all that time? Do you know Mr. Truly? 
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; that is the boss, the superintendent. 
Mr. BELIN - Did you see him, do you remember, while you were eating your lunch, come in the building? 
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; I think he came in with the police. 
Mr. BELIN - Was he one of the first people in, or did other people come in ahead of him, if you remember? 
Mr. WEST - Really, I just don't know. 
Mr. BELIN - That is okay if you don't remember. That is all I want you to say if you don't remember. Did you hear anyone yelling to let the elevator loose or anything like that? 
Mr. WEST - I can't remember. "

Hoo boy, I really hope I haven't used up all of your "independent" witnesses (what's the difference between an independent witness and a dependent witness?) because these two are beyond useless.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robin Unger]

Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.

But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And-that is-that just pepped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Robin Unger