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W. Niederhut

Who Hated JFK in 1963?

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34 minutes ago, Michael Cross said:

Yes yes, you're the authority.  We all bow down to your superior knowledge.

Thank you very much !
Wise move !

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1 hour ago, François Carlier said:

Dismiss the Warren Commission ? Really ?
And what about all the numerous, independent scientific experiments that confirmed the conclusions reached by the Warren commission ? You dismiss that too ?
And I suppose that you also dismiss Robert Oswald, who was adamant that his brother was guilty ?
And I guess you also dismiss what Doctor Malcolm Perry and Doctor Ronald Jones both wrote to me, stating clearly that they support the official version of event ?
And you do that out of whole cloth…
If it makes you happy, good for you !

There are numerous scientific experiments that show that bullets deform when they hit solid objects. Only a few years ago the Italian military again confirmed this when they test fired Mannlicher-Carcano bullets.

The Dictabelt analysis is a scientific study that corroborates what dozens of witnesses either heard, saw or smelled on the grassy knoll. Based on this evidence the House Select Committee concluded that there was a second shooter, like it or not. And the odds of random noise creating the sound pattern found on the tape are minuscule.

Concerning Robert Oswald: Where exactly was he when President Kennedy was shot? Next to his brother Lee in the 6th floor window? How exactly does he know that his brother acted all alone and not as part of a plot?

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24 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

There are numerous scientific experiments that show that bullets deform when they hit solid objects. Only a few years ago the Italian military again confirmed this when they test fired Mannlicher-Carcano bullets.

The Dictabelt analysis is a scientific study that corroborates what dozens of witnesses either heard, saw or smelled on the grassy knoll. Based on this evidence the House Select Committee concluded that there was a second shooter, like it or not. And the odds of random noise creating the sound pattern found on the tape are minuscule.

Concerning Robert Oswald: Where exactly was he when President Kennedy was shot? Next to his brother Lee in the 6th floor window? How exactly does he know that his brother acted all alone and not as part of a plot?

Sir, please !
I sincerely think that, unlike some members here, you are really a honest person, dedicated to respectfully debate the issues. And within my time constraints, I am willing to have healthy debates with you. So, OK, go ahead ! I'm at your disposal
But please, oh, please, stop making a fool of yourself (I'm sorry, I don't know what else to say) by trying to use the totally-discredited acoustics issue. Once and for all, the so-called dictabelt analysis was flawed. Listen to what Charles Rader had to say about it. Study the topic more carefully than you seem to have done so far. Officer McDonald's was nowhere near where he should have been for the hypothesis to have any semblance of probability.
I gave you several links and eferences in another thread. Read. Look at the evidence. The HSCA got it wrong, big time !
Whatever evidence for conspiracy you may find one day, it won't be the so-called acoustics from the seventies, that's for sure !

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33 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Concerning Robert Oswald: Where exactly was he when President Kennedy was shot? Next to his brother Lee in the 6th floor window? How exactly does he know that his brother acted all alone and not as part of a plot?

Unlike you or anybody else, Robert Oswald shared Lee Oswald's blood.
Unlike you or anybody else, Robert Oswald knew Lee Oswald very well and had seen him before the assassination as well as after it !
Unlike you or anybody else, Robert Oswald talked to his brother while the latter was in jail and was being accused of having killed JFK !
Unlike you or anybody else, Robert Oswald was able to spend some time with Lee Oswald, calmly, and look at him in the eyes.
Robert Oswald repeatedly said that he very much wanted to say that his brother was innocent, but he could not, because he had to admit that Lee was guilty !
Robert Oswald (quote) : 
"After all these years, I think more than anything else, if I had an opportunity, had the facts that said Lee was innocent, I would be out there shouting it loud and clear. It is my belief, my conviction, no one but Lee was involved, period" (The Kennedy assassination, beyond conspiracy, ABC News, 2003]
So, you see, between you and Robert Oswald, I must say that I know whom to choose…

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22 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

Unlike you or anybody else, Robert Oswald shared Lee Oswald's blood.
Unlike you or anybody else, Robert Oswald knew Lee Oswald very well and had seen him before the assassination as well as after it !
Unlike you or anybody else, Robert Oswald talked to his brother while the latter was in jail and was being accused of having killed JFK !
Unlike you or anybody else, Robert Oswald was able to spend some time with Lee Oswald, calmly, and look at him in the eyes.
Robert Oswald repeatedly said that he very much wanted to say that his brother was innocent, but he could not, because he had to admit that Lee was guilty !
Robert Oswald (quote) : 
"After all these years, I think more than anything else, if I had an opportunity, had the facts that said Lee was innocent, I would be out there shouting it loud and clear. It is my belief, my conviction, no one but Lee was involved, period" (The Kennedy assassination, beyond conspiracy, ABC News, 2003]
So, you see, between you and Robert Oswald, I must say that I know whom to choose…

I don't believe that Oswald was innocent. I think he was part of a plot to kill JFK. So it doesn't surprise me that he betrayed a guilty conscience.

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1 hour ago, François Carlier said:

Sir, please !
I sincerely think that, unlike some members here, you are really a honest person, dedicated to respectfully debate the issues. And within my time constraints, I am willing to have healthy debates with you. So, OK, go ahead ! I'm at your disposal
But please, oh, please, stop making a fool of yourself (I'm sorry, I don't know what else to say) by trying to use the totally-discredited acoustics issue. Once and for all, the so-called dictabelt analysis was flawed. Listen to what Charles Rader had to say about it. Study the topic more carefully than you seem to have done so far. Officer McDonald's was nowhere near where he should have been for the hypothesis to have any semblance of probability.
I gave you several links and eferences in another thread. Read. Look at the evidence. The HSCA got it wrong, big time !
Whatever evidence for conspiracy you may find one day, it won't be the so-called acoustics from the seventies, that's for sure !

I'm aware of those other studies. However I think there's a number of reasons to believe that Weiss & Aschkenasy got it right:

- They found that the microphone traveled at about 11 mph. Almost exactly the speed of the motorcade.

- They concluded that 3 shots had been fired from the book depository - where three bullet shells had been found! Strange coincidence, isn't it?

- They found N-waves indicating sonic shock waves - how would you find that in random noise?

- They've always stood by their conclusions and have offered possible explanations for the crosstalk phenomenon.

- They're corroborated by a great number of witnesses - including a police officer who smelled gun powder on the grassy knoll.

- The HSCA's photographic experts found an unidentifed adult person behind the picket fence.

- Strangers showing phony Secret Service credentials were encountered by police officers on the grassy knoll.

Edited by Mathias Baumann

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4 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Seems  we have found ourselves a French Brian Doyle.

Indeed.  Ignoring what doesn't fit his agenda.

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3 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

I'm aware of those other studies. However I think there's a number of reasons to believe that Weiss & Aschkenasy got it right:

- They found that the microphone traveled at about 11 mph. Almost exactly the speed of the motorcade.

- They concluded that 3 shots had been fired from the book depository - where three bullet shells had been found! Strange coincidence, isn't it?

- They found N-waves indicating sonic shock waves - how would you find that in random noise?

- They've always stood by their conclusions and have offered possible explanations for the crosstalk phenomenon.

- They're corroborated by a great number of witnesses - including a police officer who smelled gun powder on the grassy knoll.

- The HSCA's photographic experts found an unidentifed adult person behind the picket fence.

- Strangers showing phony Secret Service credentials were encountered by police officers on the grassy knoll.

OK.
Sir, you have to be strict. Let me ask you a precise question : how many shots were fired that day ? I say three. How many, according to you ?

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Curious about Robert Oswald.

Didn't he say after meeting Lee in jail that he didn't know that person?

And how can anyone put much weight on Robert's conclusions about Lee doing this act and doing it all by himself when it's known that Robert wasn't informed about his brother's life and activities in detail for many years? 

They weren't close. They were 5 years apart in age and had little in common socially, intellectually, politically and philosophically. In all the years Oswald was away in the military and in Russia and during Lee's time in New Orleans were he and Robert regular pen pals?

When a true investigation revealed all of Oswald's activities from military service, his time in Russia and his political activity in New Orleans in detail, how knowledgeable was Robert regards any of this specific information except after the assassination?

Robert Oswald saying his brother Lee did the deed is one thing ... but to say that his brother did this "all by himself" is another.

How would Robert Oswald know that Oswald did or did not act alone? 

He was as uniformed about Lee's activities and contacts and a thousand other research facts and official testimony which might prove or disprove this theory as any non-research educated person on the street except that he did personally see and interact with his brother a few times socially after he came back from Russia.

Did Robert give any solid research or personal interaction facts to back up his proclamation of his brother's all alone guilt?

His opinion seemed to be based almost entirely on his personal sibling time with Lee ( with enormous time separation gaps ) and his emotional gut feelings as much as any research reading he did after his brother was killed.

Robert Oswald is simply a poor witness to cite regards Oswald's actions, motivations and guilt in the JFK event.

Heck, Lee Oswald's mother communicated much more often with Lee than Robert, even when Lee was in the military and went to Russia and when he came back with Marina she lived with them both.

Her conclusion was that her son Lee was not only not guilty, but that he was in some way working for the CIA!

Close family members are often "the worst" witnesses to expect qualified answers from in murder cases.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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14 hours ago, François Carlier said:

OK.
Sir, you have to be strict. Let me ask you a precise question : how many shots were fired that day ? I say three. How many, according to you ?

At least 4 shots. 3 from the rear, possibly the School Book Depository - although the HSCA's experts could not rule out the Dal-Tex building as a possible location. I think the "Magic Bullet" may have been fired from one of the lower floors of that building. In another thread I have shown that the people right in front of the TSBD did not appear to be startled at the moment the famous Altgens photo was taken, about 2 seconds after Kennedy begins reacting to an external stimulus. Moreover we have the testimony of the two people closest to the alleged source of gun fire, TSBD workers Williams and Jarman, who thought the first shot came from outside the Book Depository. They believed it to be a motorcycle backfire - although the 150 db sound had supposedly come from right above their heads. Now add to this the fact that the wounds in Kennedy and Connolly cannot be reconciled with a trajectory from the 6th floor (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscawech.htm) and the fact that the bullet supposedly found in Parkland Hospital was almost pristine and you get a pretty clear picture, in my opinion.

The fourth shot may have come from the grassy knoll. A different kind of ammunition was probably used. This is from Mike Yardley's homepage:

Quote

1) It is deeply suspicious that the only complete bullet (a round nose Winchester Western FMJ) was found intact and in near perfect condition on the trolley that Governor Connally had been on in the hospital - no bullet was removed from JFK, Connally, or the vehicle. Nor, was any other bullet found.

2) Various bullet fragments were however found. This of itself is deeply suspicious. One bullet is, all too conveniently, found intact - with no evidence of distortion whatsoever, just rifling marks. As well as this, a significant number of fragments are found in both Kennedy‘s and Connally‘s body.

It simply does not add up. FMJ bullets don’t tend to fragment when shooting through people (though they may distort a bit). A Dr Kurtz has done some research in this area and concludes the fragments are unlikely to have come from a medium velocity, mid-power, rifle like the 6.5 Carcano. He notes:

The x-rays of the skull [of JFK] reveal massive multiple fractures of the skull on both the right and left sides. There is extensive fragmentation of the bone, and several pieces of the skull are missing. This type of damage is not produced by ammunition like that allegedly used by Oswald [Winchester Western 160 grain FMJs]. Copper-jacketed bullet commonly penetrate straight through objects, leaving only small tracks and causing little in the way of bone fractures. Wounds ballistics tests performed for the commission confirmed this. . . . .The skull x-rays also depicted extensive bullet fragmentation within the skull. This type of fragmentation is not typical of full-jacketed military ammunition. That ammunition was specifically designed to remain intact when passing through a body. Lead, or hollow-point, ammunition is the type that causes fragmentation. . . .

Dr Kurz also notes:

World War II films of men being shot in the head by Mannlicher-Carcano rifles reveal absolutely no massive explosion of brain tissue and also show quite graphically that the men invariably fell in the same direction as the trajectory of the bullets that struck them. Autopsy photographs and x-rays of some of the victims of Mannlicher-Carcano-inflicted head wounds also showed no bullet fragmentation, no serious disruption of brain tissue, and very small exit wounds. (CRIME OF THE CENTURY, Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press, 1982, pp. 91, 104)

[...]

You can however, make a clear shot from the grassy knoll - either forward of the vehicle near the walk way at about 75 yards (where it is suggested a gunman might have been in a drain and popped up to make the shots) or in the classic grassy knoll position which is but 33 yards from the target. I would also comment that although this is a slightly oblique shot, it is the easiest of all the options and offers the best cover with fences and vehicles (present on the day) to aid with concealment. If there was a second gunman, it would be my bet he was at this position.

Source: http://www.positiveshooting.com/KennedyAssassinationLatest.html

It should also be noted, that a rusty rifle shell was found on the roof of the County Records building in the 1970s. So as many as 5 shots may have been fired in total.

 

Edited by Mathias Baumann

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On 11/7/2018 at 8:28 PM, Mathias Baumann said:

I don't believe that Oswald was innocent. I think he was part of a plot to kill JFK. So it doesn't surprise me that he betrayed a guilty conscience.

"Part of a plot" ? Then let me ask you a few questions : when do you think he had the time and opportunity to get his instructions and organize things ? And where did he meet his co-conspirators ? And why didn’t he say anything when he realized that he had been bamboozled and betrayed by them ?

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On 11/8/2018 at 3:08 PM, Mathias Baumann said:

At least 4 shots. 3 from the rear, possibly the School Book Depository - although the HSCA's experts could not rule out the Dal-Tex building as a possible location. I think the "Magic Bullet" may have been fired from one of the lower floors of that building. In another thread I have shown that the people right in front of the TSBD did not appear to be startled at the moment the famous Altgens photo was taken, about 2 seconds after Kennedy begins reacting to an external stimulus. Moreover we have the testimony of the two people closest to the alleged source of gun fire, TSBD workers Williams and Jarman, who thought the first shot came from outside the Book Depository. They believed it to be a motorcycle backfire - although the 150 db sound had supposedly come from right above their heads. Now add to this the fact that the wounds in Kennedy and Connolly cannot be reconciled with a trajectory from the 6th floor (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscawech.htm) and the fact that the bullet supposedly found in Parkland Hospital was almost pristine and you get a pretty clear picture, in my opinion.

The fourth shot may have come from the grassy knoll. A different kind of ammunition was probably used. This is from Mike Yardley's homepage:

It should also be noted, that a rusty rifle shell was found on the roof of the County Records building in the 1970s. So as many as 5 shots may have been fired in total.

 

Sir, thank you for your answer. OK, in order to try not to get lost in the different directions or the amount of information, let’s stick to specific items.
Let’s focus on the number of shots, please.
I had asked you this : « Let me ask you a precise question : how many shots were fired that day ? I say three. How many, according to you ?
 »
Your answer to me is (I quote) : « So as many as 5 shots may have been fired in total. »
Then, may I ask :
-why do you think that only four of the five shots were « heard » on the dictabelt and spotted by the Weiss & Aschkenasy team ?
- how is it that people who are supposedly experts on the Kennedy assassination, such as Robert Groden, talk about six, seven, and even more shots ? How is it possible ? I mean, supposedly the acoustics evidence shows four shots. Then you say five. And other conspiracy believers say six or seven. I mean, there’s a problem, somewhere, wouldn’t you think ?

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On 11/8/2018 at 1:32 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Curious about Robert Oswald.

Didn't he say after meeting Lee in jail that he didn't know that person?

And how can anyone put much weight on Robert's conclusions about Lee doing this act and doing it all by himself when it's known that Robert wasn't informed about his brother's life and activities in detail for many years? 

They weren't close. They were 5 years apart in age and had little in common socially, intellectually, politically and philosophically. In all the years Oswald was away in the military and in Russia and during Lee's time in New Orleans were he and Robert regular pen pals?

When a true investigation revealed all of Oswald's activities from military service, his time in Russia and his political activity in New Orleans in detail, how knowledgeable was Robert regards any of this specific information except after the assassination?

Robert Oswald saying his brother Lee did the deed is one thing ... but to say that his brother did this "all by himself" is another.

How would Robert Oswald know that Oswald did or did not act alone? 

He was as uniformed about Lee's activities and contacts and a thousand other research facts and official testimony which might prove or disprove this theory as any non-research educated person on the street except that he did personally see and interact with his brother a few times socially after he came back from Russia.

Did Robert give any solid research or personal interaction facts to back up his proclamation of his brother's all alone guilt?

His opinion seemed to be based almost entirely on his personal sibling time with Lee ( with enormous time separation gaps ) and his emotional gut feelings as much as any research reading he did after his brother was killed.

Robert Oswald is simply a poor witness to cite regards Oswald's actions, motivations and guilt in the JFK event.

Heck, Lee Oswald's mother communicated much more often with Lee than Robert, even when Lee was in the military and went to Russia and when he came back with Marina she lived with them both.

Her conclusion was that her son Lee was not only not guilty, but that he was in some way working for the CIA!

Close family members are often "the worst" witnesses to expect qualified answers from in murder cases.

 

Thank you for your message, Sir.
But I think that you miss the point
I agree with you that Robert Oswald was not informed about Lee’s activities in detail. I don’t deny that.
I also agree to say that Robert Oswald has no authority to say that his brother did it alone. Granted. If Lee Harvey Oswald had assassinated Kennedy with some friends who were able to escape, Robert Oswald would not be in a better position than you and me to determine that or have an opinion on that possibility.
But, you seem to forget one important thing : I never said (and no one has ever said), that we rely on Robert Oswald to determine who killed Kennedy ! We already have all the evidence (and scientific evidence, etc.) to determine that Lee Harvey Oswald alone fired all the shots (three) that killed Kennedy. Robert Oswald’s testimony is just an additional argument, some additional information that powerfully confirms and add strength to the official version. That’s a lot !
When you say that « Close family members are often "the worst" witnesses to expect qualified answers from in murder cases
 » I tend to agree. I mean, when feelings are involved, people are biased, subjective. That’s expected.
But it doesn’t apply here. We should expect Robert Oswald, out of bias or subjectiveness, to tell us that his brother was innocent ! But despite his desire to tell the world that his brother was innocent, he had to acknowledge the facts. He had to admit the truth. That’s powerful. Besides, again, I say it, Robert talked to Lee before and after the assassination. Who else did ?
He had a personal, intimate conversation with him. Who else did ?
And sir, please, be honest, I know my sister better than you do. And I suppose that you know your brother, and your wife better than I do. You get my point.

Edited by François Carlier

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Robert had a jailhouse conversation with Lee.  Nobody imagines those to be "intimate."

"Brother, you won't find the truth in there."

Edited by David Andrews

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