Freight Elevator Escape?

[Ron Bulman]

On 3/10/2019 at 9:26 AM, Gary Murr said:

Not to interject, but for those who are interested, I have a 200 page long chapter on Bonnie Ray Williams and friends in Volume 2 of "Controlling The Past".   I will be posting all six chapters of Volume 2, titled "Forsaken - Tales of Straw-men and Reconstruction", within the next two or three days.

Gary

Thank you for interjecting sir.  I wish I had more time to read your excellent work (than the little bit I have, thus far).

Edited March 14, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Ron Bulman]

After three recent threads on the escape from the sixth floor I still think the freight elevators are the most likely.   The light's out thread has valuable information and informative comments.  But I still have trouble with a fourth floor elevator roof escape.  I also don't think I'd be comfortable with running down the outside of the building, exposing myself to any possible observers, including policemen, by going down a fire escape if I'd just participated in killing the President.  

Bart said earlier on another thread that trying to understand the elevators is basically a clusterflubb.  But trying to find the Truth of what is available is worthy of talking about it.

We may likely never know but I still wonder, how did the bastard's get out of there? 

[John Butler]

8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

After three recent threads on the escape from the sixth floor I still think the freight elevators are the most likely.   The light's out thread has valuable information and informative comments.  But I still have trouble with a fourth floor elevator roof escape.  I also don't think I'd be comfortable with running down the outside of the building, exposing myself to any possible observers, including policemen, by going down a fire escape if I'd just participated in killing the President.  

Bart said earlier on another thread that trying to understand the elevators is basically a clusterflubb.  But trying to find the Truth of what is available is worthy of talking about it.

We may likely never know but I still wonder, how did the bastard's get out of there? 

There is nothing to argue about with what you have said.  You have summed up nicely.  Realistically, there is no good evidence for any route out of the TSBD.  By implication if someone is seen on the street and thought to have been on the 6th floor then they would have had to exit the TSBD somehow.  There's only two ways to do that, the first floor exits or the fire escape.

The elevators seem to be a focus with people noticing what was going on with both freight and passenger elevators on the first floor.  To avoid that one could ride an elevator to the basement and then come up the basement stairs to exit the first floor.  It seems to me that if you were a TSBD employee you would not be as noticed or remembered if you came up to the 1st floor from the basement.  Maybe.  I don't know about a stranger to the building.  I think a stranger would be noticed.  Would someone like Mac Wallace be considered a stranger?  There is an Oswald and a double at the TSBD if you credit Roger Craig's story and other witnesses.  He wouldn't be noticed moving around the first floor and could exit out the back or front without any problems.  But,

"But trying to find the Truth of what is available is worthy of talking about it."

 

[Tom Wilson]

It seems to me that the observation by Roger Craig of Lee Oswald leaving via front door to enter the car on Elm Street is evidence that a shooter resembling Oswald did get out somehow. There also was a man wearing a suit seen exiting the rear of the building as I recall. So though we may never know the exact route out of the building, does not mean shooters were there and in fact exited the TSBD.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Tom Wilson

[Pat Speer]

I added a chapter to my website a few years back that unravels some mysteries and answers this very question.  It's chapter 4, Pinning the Tale on the Oswald. http://www.patspeer.com/chapter4b%3A"theso-calledevidence"

In sum, Jack Dougherty was not on the fifth floor at the time of the shooting. Period. An unknown person (presumably the actual assassin) took the elevator down as Baker and Truly ran up.

Dougherty was consistent in that he took the elevator up ten minutes or so after 12:30. He went up to the sixth, and then down to the fifth. He then heard a loud noise ABOVE him in the vicinity of the west elevator. He waited a moment and then took this elevator back down and talked to Eddie Piper. He then went back up to the sixth but clarified in his testimony that this was after the police had taken over the building.

So how do we know Dougherty didn't go up to the fifth floor before 12:30 and hear a rifle shot?

1.  If he was on the fifth floor at the time of the shooting, he would have heard the shots from the open windows in the southeast corner of the building, or perhaps even an echo from the southwest corner of the building. He would not have heard one shot from above.

2. He did not see or hear Jarman, Norman, or Williams as they reacted to the shooting, and raced across the fifth floor, and they failed to see him as well.

3. For Dougherty to have been on the fifth as Baker and Truly ran up would mean he was on the fifth as Oswald (supposedly) ran down. And guess what? The place where he was standing when he heard the loud noise--and the place the commission presumes him to have been standing when Oswald ran down--was about 20 feet of open floor away from Oswald's supposed path! And yet Dougherty--the man the commission used to prove no unknown  person took the elevator down after the shots--didn't see him! (There's a reason for this, of course. 1. Dougherty wasn't on the fifth floor at this time. 2. NO ONE raced down the stairs from the sixth floor.)

4. Truly said he saw Dougherty on the fifth floor as he descended from the roof with Baker. There's no evidence Dougherty ever returned to this floor after going down to see Piper. It follows, then, that Truly saw Dougherty before he took the west elevator down to see Piper. (This makes me suspect the loud sound heard by Dougherty was the sound of the roof hatch being slammed shut.)

5. Dougherty said that when he came down from the fifth floor he talked to Eddie Piper and that Piper had told him the President had been shot. Piper would not have known this if Dougherty had come down while Baker and Truly were going up. But he would have known this 5 to 10 minutes later, after Gloria Calvery and others had returned to the building.

6. As icing on the cake, moreover, is this sad sad fact. Joseph Ball wrote a memo stressing that when Eddie PIper was to testify for a second time, he was to be asked just when it was that Dougherty came down from the upper floors. And then he failed to ask Piper this question...on the record. This is a clear indication then that he DID ask Piper the question off the record, and didn't get the answer he wanted, and then failed to ask the question on the record. That he had it out for Piper is proven, moreover, by a paragraph in the Warren Report, in which Ball et al attack Dougherty and Piper's reliability, when, in fact, Piper was one of the most consistent witnesses they had. They just didn't like what he told them--that he saw Oswald at 12:00 in the domino room,, and (presumably) that Dougherty came down from the fifth AFTER Baker and Truly had returned from the roof.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Pat Speer

[Tony Krome]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I added a chapter to my website a few years back that unravels some mysteries and answers this very question.  It's chapter 4, Pinning the Tale on the Oswald. http://www.patspeer.com/chapter4b%3A"theso-calledevidence"

In sum, Jack Dougherty was not on the fifth floor at the time of the shooting. Period. An unknown person (presumably the actual assassin) took the elevator down as Baker and Truly ran up.

Dougherty was consistent in that he took the elevator up ten minutes or so after 12:30. He went up to the sixth, and then down to the fifth. He then heard a loud noise ABOVE him in the vicinity of the west elevator. He waited a moment and then took this elevator back down and talked to Eddie Piper. He then went back up to the sixth but clarified in his testimony that this was after the police had taken over the building.

So how do we know Dougherty didn't go up to the fifth floor before 12:30 and hear a rifle shot?

1.  If he was on the fifth floor at the time of the shooting, he would have heard the shots from the open windows in the southeast corner of the building, or perhaps even an echo from the southwest corner of the building. He would not have heard one shot from above.

2. He did not see or hear Jarman, Norman, or Williams as they reacted to the shooting, and raced across the fifth floor, and they failed to see him as well.

3. For Dougherty to have been on the fifth as Baker and Truly ran up would mean he was on the fifth as Oswald (supposedly) ran down. And guess what? The place where he was standing when he heard the loud noise--and the place the commission presumes him to have been standing when Oswald ran down--was about 20 feet of open floor away from Oswald's supposed path! And yet Dougherty--the man the commission used to prove no unknown  person took the elevator down after the shots--didn't see him! (There's a reason for this, of course. 1. Dougherty wasn't on the fifth floor at this time. 2. NO ONE raced down the stairs from the sixth floor.)

4. Truly said he saw Dougherty on the fifth floor as he descended from the roof with Baker. There's no evidence Dougherty ever returned to this floor after going down to see Piper. It follows, then, that Truly saw Dougherty before he took the west elevator down to see Piper. (This makes me suspect the loud sound heard by Dougherty was the sound of the roof hatch being slammed shut.)

5. Dougherty said that when he came down from the fifth floor he talked to Eddie Piper and that Piper had told him the President had been shot. Piper would not have known this if Dougherty had come down while Baker and Truly were going up. But he would have known this 5 to 10 minutes later, after Gloria Calvery and others had returned to the building.

6. As icing on the cake, moreover, is this sad sad fact. Joseph Ball wrote a memo stressing that when Eddie PIper was to testify for a second time, he was to be asked just when it was that Dougherty came down from the upper floors. And then he failed to ask Piper this question...on the record. This is a clear indication then that he DID ask Piper the question off the record, and didn't get the answer he wanted, and then failed to ask the question on the record. That he had it out for Piper is proven, moreover, by a paragraph in the Warren Report, in which Ball et al attack Dougherty and Piper's reliability, when, in fact, Piper was one of the most consistent witnesses they had. They just didn't like what he told them--that he saw Oswald at 12:00 in the domino room,, and (presumably) that Dougherty came down from the fifth AFTER Baker and Truly had returned from the roof.

 

 

Re:1

The sound of gunfire may have travelled down the elevator shaft from above IF he was on the 5th and standing 10 feet from the elevator.

Re2:

IF Dougherty was standing 10 feet from the elevator in the direction of the stairwell, Jarman, Williams and Norman may have not been aware of his presence considering their attention was to the south and west through windows

Re:3

In the above position, Dougherty did not see Oswald at the stairwell since Oswald was not on the 6th floor

Re:4

Baker was a cop looking for suspects, you have only Truly seeing Dougherty

Re:5

What did Piper have to say regarding Dougherty?

 

[Pat Speer]

19 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Re:1

The sound of gunfire may have travelled down the elevator shaft from above IF he was on the 5th and standing 10 feet from the elevator.

Not likely. There were multiple walls of books between the sniper's nest and the elevators. It seems far more likely the sound of a rifle sticking out a window on the sixth floor would be heard through the open windows less than ten feet below this rifle, than from an elevator shaft a hundred feet in back of the rifle behind rows and rows of boxes. And let's not forget. Dougherty heard but one sound. If what he heard was gunshots, he would have heard more than one sound.

Re2:

IF Dougherty was standing 10 feet from the elevator in the direction of the stairwell, Jarman, Williams and Norman may have not been aware of his presence considering their attention was to the south and west through windows

Williams said he looked in this direction but did not see Dougherty, but that he did see Baker when he came up. They took pictures from his perspective to show that he might not have seen Oswald as Oswald ran down. These proved as well that he should have been able to see Dougherty. There's the other side of this, of course. And that is that Dougherty did not see of hear J, N and W running across the front windows of an open warehouse floor. There's also this. Belin did numerous re-enactments. And yet failed to perform one to estimate just how long it took J, N and W to run to the west side of the building. And there's a reason for this. It would almost certainly have meant they were on the west side when Oswald was supposedly running down the stairs, and Dougherty was taking the elevator down. And that was a problem. A big big problem. Because Belin's "solution" had Oswald running right past Dougherty.

Re:3

In the above position, Dougherty did not see Oswald at the stairwell since Oswald was not on the 6th floor

Re:4

Baker was a cop looking for suspects, you have only Truly seeing Dougherty

Precisely. Truly brought it up in his testimony but was not aware of the significance. Which is why it's so significant.

Re:5

What did Piper have to say regarding Dougherty?

The Commission's single-assassin solution hung on its incredibly wobbly proposition Dougherty took the west elevator down as Baker and Truly ran up. Dougherty said he spoke to one person when he came down, Eddie Piper. And that his whole elevator journey took place around 12:40. Joe Ball wrote a memo telling Wesley Liebeler to be sure to ask Eddie Piper when he spoke to Dougherty. He then questioned Piper himself. And failed to ask the question, at least not on the record. (It was Ball and Belin's MO that they run through the questions off the record and then go through them--or at least some of them--on the record.) This could hardly have been a mistake. We were never supposed to see Ball's memo, moreover, since it only came to light when Howard Willens decided to publish some of the WC's internal memos to go along with his book, in 2013.

The presumption Dougherty was an idiot who couldn't read a clock is at the heart of the commission's conclusions. And yet this is a guy trusted by Truly to open up the building every day, who, according to Buell Frazier, was liked and respected by his co-workers--and was no "dummy." It is my suspicion Dougherty was on the spectrum, and was methodical in his actions, such as always going back to work at 12:30. Much as Rowland, Worrell, Piper and Adams, he was targeted as an unfriendly witness, due to his claiming he saw Oswald come into the building without a package, but there was a problem. They couldn't bury him because they needed him to be the man on the elevator. So they painted this picture of him as this aimless idiot wandering the building.

 

My responses in bold.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Pat Speer

[Paul Jolliffe]

Pat,

You've done some impressive work on this.

A few questions:

Exactly where was Jack Dougherty at 12:30? We know the WC needed him to make his descent in the 5th floor west freight elevator as Baker and Truly ascend, but if that wasn't him, then precisely where was he at 12:30?

Exactly where was Eddie Piper at 12:30?

We've always assumed he was at the back of the TSBD, near the coffee, right? Is that true, and how do we know that for certain?

If Piper was indeed where he allegedly was, near the freight elevators, and if, in fact, Dougherty DID NOT take the freight elevator down until ten minutes later, then Piper must have seen the exit of a conspirator (or more) from the west freight elevator, right? Why didn't Piper say anything, if he was there? For that matter, why wasn't he "silenced" if he was an eyeball witness to the getaway of the conspirator(s)?

Was Eddie Piper in on the plot? Could he have been one to throw a switch on the fuse box? If not, why not?

If the freight elevator WAS used as the escape route for the 6th floor conspirators, and if Jack Dougherty was not up on the 5th floor as he later claimed, then who the hell did Baker see (and suspect) "on the level of the 3rd or 4th floor, walking away from the stairs"? Did the 6th floor conspirators break up into two groups, one leaving via the elevator, and one making his way downstairs on foot? If so, then why didn't Dorothy Garner see that person as they descended the stairs?

I appreciate any insight you might have on this, Pat. 

[Pat Speer]

10 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Pat,

You've done some impressive work on this.

A few questions:

Exactly where was Jack Dougherty at 12:30? We know the WC needed him to make his descent in the 5th floor west freight elevator as Baker and Truly ascend, but if that wasn't him, then precisely where was he at 12:30?

Exactly where was Eddie Piper at 12:30?

We've always assumed he was at the back of the TSBD, near the coffee, right? Is that true, and how do we know that for certain?

If Piper was indeed where he allegedly was, near the freight elevators, and if, in fact, Dougherty DID NOT take the freight elevator down until ten minutes later, then Piper must have seen the exit of a conspirator (or more) from the west freight elevator, right? Why didn't Piper say anything, if he was there? For that matter, why wasn't he "silenced" if he was an eyeball witness to the getaway of the conspirator(s)?

Was Eddie Piper in on the plot? Could he have been one to throw a switch on the fuse box? If not, why not?

If the freight elevator WAS used as the escape route for the 6th floor conspirators, and if Jack Dougherty was not up on the 5th floor as he later claimed, then who the hell did Baker see (and suspect) "on the level of the 3rd or 4th floor, walking away from the stairs"? Did the 6th floor conspirators break up into two groups, one leaving via the elevator, and one making his way downstairs on foot? If so, then why didn't Dorothy Garner see that person as they descended the stairs?

I appreciate any insight you might have on this, Pat. 

Dougherty was somewhere on the first floor at the time of the shooting. He ate in the domino room. He said he looked out the front door but thought it was too crowded. (Yet another reason to think he was autistic...) While his exact moments were never probed, my suspicion is he was in the bathroom when the shots were fired. And that he then came out, couldn't figure out what the hubbub was all about, and went upstairs to work. Only to hear a loud noise up above him. He then came down and talked to Piper, who was, presumably somewhere near the elevator at this time. Most probably guarding the back door. (Two members of law enforcement entering the building 10 minutes and more after the shooting noted that a black man was standing by the back door watching everyone coming and going. This was almost certainly Piper.)

There's also this. The black man guarding the back door did nothing to stop these men from coming into the building. And, apparently, did nothing to stop anyone from leaving. So...whoever came down on the west elevator as Baker and Truly ran up...could have just walked out the back...the front...or the side...and no one would have stopped them. 

Now this is important. Piper watched the motorcade from the front windows of the building, and was clear across the building from the elevators when the shots were fired. He then went to the wrapping bench, where Troy West made coffee. This was in the middle of the building. He was standing there, moreover, when Baker and Truly came in. 

So...guess where Shelley saw Piper when he and Lovelady came in the side door... He saw him walking from the front of the building, a location Piper left BEFORE Baker and Truly came in the building. Shelley and Lovelady were the two men by the elevators, and were observed by Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles when they came down the stairs. (Armstrong is right about this.) The statements and testimony prove this point, in spades. 

So...why did Shelley and Lovelady help create this fiction they were in the railroad yards for more than a few seconds... Well, they may have been bullied into it. But another possibility is that they saw who came down on the elevator...and it was a cop. (That's just speculation, of course.)

[Tony Krome]

20 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

So...guess where Shelley saw Piper when he and Lovelady came in the side door...

You have Shelley/Lovelady moving west along the Elm extension, entering the side door, and arriving at the freight elevators before Truly/Baker?

[Pat Speer]

9 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

You have Shelley/Lovelady moving west along the Elm extension, entering the side door, and arriving at the freight elevators before Truly/Baker?

Yep. 

In his testimony, Lovelady was asked to estimate how much time passed before he left the front steps, and how long he spent in the train yards. His estimate for how much time passed before he left was twice as long as his estimate for how much time he spent in the yards, if I remember. As we now know, he and Shelley were off and running before Baker reached the steps. He testified, for that matter, that he saw Baker run up as he was heading to the west side of the building.

Well, Belin had had Baker re-enact his run into the building, and knew he was at the steps within seconds. So he knew Lovelady's testimony meant he  and Shelley entered from the west side either a short time before or a short time after Baker and Truly reached the elevators. We can assume the former, for that matter. You see, neither Lovelady nor Shelley were asked if they saw Baker and Truly run up to the elevators. It's fortunate then that the HSCA came along... and Lovelady finally answered the question Ball and Belin were determined would not be asked. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Pat Speer

[Tony Krome]

9 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Yep. 

In his testimony, Lovelady was asked to estimate how much time passed before he left the front steps, and how long he spent in the train yards. His estimate for how much time passed before he left was twice as long as his estimate for how much time he spent in the yards, if I remember. As we now know, he and Shelley were off and running before Baker reached the steps. He testified, for that matter, that he saw Baker run up as he was heading to the west side of the building.

Well, Belin had had Baker re-enact his run into the building, and knew he was at the steps within seconds. So he knew Lovelady's testimony meant he  and Shelley entered from the west side either a short time before or a short time after Baker and Truly reached the elevators. We can assume the former, for that matter. You see, neither Lovelady nor Shelley were asked if they saw Baker and Truly run up to the elevators. It's fortunate then that the HSCA came along... and Lovelady finally answered the question Ball and Belin were determined would not be asked. 

 

Testimony;    Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.

Affidavit;        Shelley: I left the elevator and went with the police on up to the other floors. I left Jack Dougherty in charge of the elevator

 If Shelley left Dougherty in charge of the elevator;

1. Which elevator do you have Dougherty in charge of?

2. Who did Truly expect to guard the freight elevators?

(considering Truly knew Baker wanted to check the roof for a shooter, and considering he saw the elevators level on the 5th floor, it follows that any elevators to guard would be the ones he's looking at, and not the passenger elevator)

3. How and when did Dougherty arrive at a location near the 5th floor freight elevator for Truly to see him? **

(timeframe has to include standing by an elevator, moving to the 6th floor, pick stock, move to 5th floor, pick stock)

4. Do you have Dougherty disobeying Shelley's instruction, and abandoning elevator guard duty so that he could pick some stock?

5. You mentioned in an earlier post that maybe the assassin came down the elevator while Truly and Baker were running up the stairs. According the above testimony,  Shelley or someone left to guard the freight elevators, must have been in a position to see the assassin, correct?

** I see you have Shelley and Sawyer going up in the passenger elevator at 12:36pm

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Tony Krome

[Pat Speer]

16 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

 

Testimony;    Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.

Affidavit;        Shelley: I left the elevator and went with the police on up to the other floors. I left Jack Dougherty in charge of the elevator

 If Shelley left Dougherty in charge of the elevator;

1. Which elevator do you have Dougherty in charge of?

2. Who did Truly expect to guard the freight elevators?

(considering Truly knew Baker wanted to check the roof for a shooter, and considering he saw the elevators level on the 5th floor, it follows that any elevators to guard would be the ones he's looking at, and not the passenger elevator)

3. How and when did Dougherty arrive at a location near the 5th floor freight elevator for Truly to see him? **

(timeframe has to include standing by an elevator, moving to the 6th floor, pick stock, move to 5th floor, pick stock)

4. Do you have Dougherty disobeying Shelley's instruction, and abandoning elevator guard duty so that he could pick some stock?

5. You mentioned in an earlier post that maybe the assassin came down the elevator while Truly and Baker were running up the stairs. According the above testimony,  Shelley or someone left to guard the freight elevators, must have been in a position to see the assassin, correct?

** I see you have Shelley and Sawyer going up in the passenger elevator at 12:36pm

 

Truly didn't think the shots came from his building. While he told Shelley to watch the front elevator. It's unclear if he told anyone to watch the freight elevators. I suspect, however, he told Piper to watch the back door/elevators. And that that is why Dougherty ran into him when he came down. 

In this scenario, yes, Dougherty was told to watch the front elevator, but instead went back to work. Presumably, he was confused. Nobody had told him what was going on. When one thinks about it, moreover, it becomes clear Ball and Belin knew where the evidence was leading. They knew from the beginning they had to put Dougherty on the elevator that came down as Baker and Truly went up. And yet they failed to ask anyone--and Piper in particular--about Dougherty's whereabouts. Gee, why do you think that is? 

I scrawled down a timeline a few years back when I was working on this, and came to conclude Baker and Truly came down 12:38 ish. So Dougherty would have been on the fifth at this time---which means he arrived on the fifth a few minutes after J, N and W ran down the stairs. 

To be clear, I'm not convinced anyone saw the "assassin" come down. When you pore through all these witness reports, there are repeated references to cops running through the building or men believed to have been SS or FBI lurking around the building at a time no SS or FBI were at the building. One or more of these men could have been the assassin or assassins. And the proof is...no one noticed Oswald walk down the front steps...or even out the back door. It is presumed that he did so. But no one saw him do this. HE told the police he helped someone find a phone. This man was either Pierce Allman or Robert MacNeil. But neither of them independently said "Oh yeah, I talked to Oswald in the building, and saw him walk out." People were in a panic. And the killer(s) could have just strolled out the front of the building. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Pat Speer

[Tony Krome]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Truly didn't think the shots came from his building. While he told Shelley to watch the front elevator. It's unclear if he told anyone to watch the freight elevators. I suspect, however, he told Piper to watch the back door/elevators. And that that is why Dougherty ran into him when he came down. 

In this scenario, yes, Dougherty was told to watch the front elevator, but instead went back to work. Presumably, he was confused. Nobody had told him what was going on. When one thinks about it, moreover, it becomes clear Ball and Belin knew where the evidence was leading. They knew from the beginning they had to put Dougherty on the elevator that came down as Baker and Truly went up. And yet they failed to ask anyone--and Piper in particular--about Dougherty's whereabouts. Gee, why do you think that is? 

I scrawled down a timeline a few years back when I was working on this, and came to conclude Baker and Truly came down 12:38 ish. So Dougherty would have been on the fifth at this time---which means he arrived on the fifth a few minutes after J, N and W ran down the stairs. 

To be clear, I'm not convinced anyone saw the "assassin" come down. When you pore through all these witness reports, there are repeated references to cops running through the building or men believed to have been SS or FBI lurking around the building at a time no SS or FBI were at the building. One or more of these men could have been the assassin or assassins. And the proof is...no one noticed Oswald walk down the front steps...or even out the back door. It is presumed that he did so. But no one saw him do this. HE told the police he helped someone find a phone. This man was either Pierce Allman or Robert MacNeil. But neither of them independently said "Oh yeah, I talked to Oswald in the building, and saw him walk out." People were in a panic. And the killer(s) could have just strolled out the front of the building. 

I appreciate you clearing that up. 

In my mind, if Truly did issue such an order, and Shelley was by the freight elevators, it makes sense that any order would be relevant to the freight elevators and nearby stairwell, and that would also have sat well with Officer Baker as he knew where he was going and was aware of the potential of the elevators descending as they took to the stairwell.

Leaving obvious escape routes unguarded, after issuing guard orders, does not make sense, and certainly Piper made no mention of any assigned task. That combined with no mention of Shelley by Truly and Piper leads me to doubt any such order, and I believe Truly and Baker would have mentioned such an order.

I think after observing the elevators on the upper floors, Baker ascended the stairs with the intention of observing any movement of persons in the north/west corner of the building, and did indeed confront someone near the 4th floor stairwell.

I'd also like make this point;

From a planning perspective, there would be no way you would have total strangers, on the 6th floor, unfamiliar with the elevator operation and the building itself, that you'd expect to escape from the building undetected without help from the inside. The freight elevator is the most plausible escape route, and there had to be one at the ready for the decent.

Think about this, you tell these guys one of two things in the pre-planning stage;

1. There will be an elevator ready and waiting for you to escape

2. See if you guys can catch a ride on an elevator

It's going to be No.1 every time.

Now, would you risk your guys to operate unfamiliar equipment in such an operation that involved the assassination of the President?

Of course not

There was help from the inside to be sure

 

[Ron Bulman]

35 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

I appreciate you clearing that up. 

In my mind, if Truly did issue such an order, and Shelley was by the freight elevators, it makes sense that any order would be relevant to the freight elevators and nearby stairwell, and that would also have sat well with Officer Baker as he knew where he was going and was aware of the potential of the elevators descending as they took to the stairwell.

Leaving obvious escape routes unguarded, after issuing guard orders, does not make sense, and certainly Piper made no mention of any assigned task. That combined with no mention of Shelley by Truly and Piper leads me to doubt any such order, and I believe Truly and Baker would have mentioned such an order.

I think after observing the elevators on the upper floors, Baker ascended the stairs with the intention of observing any movement of persons in the north/west corner of the building, and did indeed confront someone near the 4th floor stairwell.

I'd also like make this point;

From a planning perspective, there would be no way you would have total strangers, on the 6th floor, unfamiliar with the elevator operation and the building itself, that you'd expect to escape from the building undetected without help from the inside. The freight elevator is the most plausible escape route, and there had to be one at the ready for the decent.

Think about this, you tell these guys one of two things in the pre-planning stage;

1. There will be an elevator ready and waiting for you to escape

2. See if you guys can catch a ride on an elevator

It's going to be No.1 every time.

Now, would you risk your guys to operate unfamiliar equipment in such an operation that involved the assassination of the President?

Of course not

There was help from the inside to be sure

 

I've had the thought before that both access and egress might have been rehearsed, maybe more than once.  After hours or on a weekend.