Freight Elevator Escape?

[Cory Santos]

David, has anyone duplicated pigeons flying away due to shots floors down or, could someone on the roof triggered the pigeons flying away 

[David Andrews]

1 hour ago, Cory Santos said:

David, has anyone duplicated pigeons flying away due to shots floors down or, could someone on the roof triggered the pigeons flying away 

The legend is that pigeons erupted from the roof when shots were fired.  If you're quiet around pigeons on an urban roof, they'll be momentarily disturbed when you enter, but soon return and settle down.  (My Manhattan experience.)  Fire a gun, and it's probable pandemonium, even if fired two floors down.

As far as I know, no one has tried to replicate the pigeon factor.

I believe that one of Officer Marrion Baker's accounts says that his eye was attracted to the TSBD because of pigeon activity - perhaps returning en masse after the shooting stopped.  Perhaps he was not truthful.

Nobody knows what really happened, pigeon wise - but, once on record somewhere,  the idea was colorful enough to make it into the assassination scene opening JFK.  Doves of peace, and all that.  An urban barometer.

Edited March 8, 2019 by David Andrews

[Ron Bulman]

23 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

That would have been possible BUT I don't think they counted on Baker running into the TSBD and arriving at the elevators so quickly

So there was a delay due to Baker being spotted and a message would have been relayed to the 6th floor

When Baker and Truly arrived at the elevators, both elevators appeared to be level on 5 and not moving

I wondered about Truly and the fifth floor when I first read his statement years ago.  The elevator call button didn't work, no sound of movement?  He stuck his head in the shaft and looked up.  Did he take time to count openings to different floors above?  Or guess?  They were in a hurry to locate someone suspected of shooting at the President after all.

What if it was on the fourth floor?  Didn't Baker encounter a man walking away from the stairs/ elevator on the 3rd or 4th floor?

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, David Andrews said:

People have posted recently about the "wide ledge" that would have discouraged shooting from the roof of the TSBD.  To put it in architectural language, there's a wide decorative cornice circling the building just below the not very wide top of the wall  (perhaps 5' high) That encloses the roof.  there's another cornice above the sixth floor windows.  This was a visual motif used to set the top floor of a building apart from the lower floors, making the building look taller and perhaps accenting that the top floor could have some exclusivity.  (A third cornice is used above the first floor to attract street traffic.)  The upper cornice is taller and made of a different material than the facade, providing a 'capital' or head to the top of the building. 

From the brief helicopter shot in Executive Action, it's hard to judge if the cornice would limit shooting at all target positions, if one were standing only on the roof surface.  But with the wall and the cornice, no spot up there seems choice.

One thing people don't consider is the pigeons that would congregate on such a ledge.  Did a flock really take off at once when shots were fired, as depicted in JFK?  Or will we find that pigeons were impossible at that time of year, like the condition of the Live Oak below the windows.

A grim amusement found on the internet:

http://copycateffect.blogspot.com/2011/08/tsbd.html

Own it!

 

I do! I Do!  I never knew, the pigeons only flew when all the leaves had fallen off the live oak trees, here in Texas. Ah, ha hah!  Thank you, I needed a laugh.  As they say these days ROFLMAO!

[Ron Bulman]

20 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

I'm talking about power to the elevators. The only indications I've seen (on record) regarding power cuts to elevators, occur at approx 12:40pm. 

1. Mooney [WEST elevator]

2. Adams [Passenger elevator]

3. Adams [WEST elevator]

The only other power cut indication I've seen is what Hines reported prior to the motorcade arriving, and there was no mention of power cut to elevators at that point in time

I forget the Mooney reference.  I remember Vicki Adams trying the passenger elevator before she ran down the back stairs.  Truly's observance of them stuck on the5th floor could be possibly considered an occurrence of such.  Then again this could be accomplished by leaving the gate open.

[Tony Krome]

2 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I wondered about Truly and the fifth floor when I first read his statement years ago.  The elevator call button didn't work, no sound of movement?  He stuck his head in the shaft and looked up.  Did he take time to count openings to different floors above?  Or guess?  They were in a hurry to locate someone suspected of shooting at the President after all.

What if it was on the fourth floor?  Didn't Baker encounter a man walking away from the stairs/ elevator on the 3rd or 4th floor?

Truly yelled up the shaft for the WEST elevator, as that one can be called down by pressing a button, providing the gates are shut. In other words, the gates were open on the 5th floor. 

Yes, it appears Baker encountered someone on the 4th floor. When reading the testimony below, keep in mind that Truly and Baker boarded the elevator on the 5th floor AND Baker relates "floor number two" as the encounter floor;

Mr. BELIN - At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot remember, I don't know.
Mr. BAKER - Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator.
Mr. BAKER - At some higher floor after that?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here.

If you had to choose between the 3rd or 4th floor in Baker's original affidavit, the above suggests the 4th floor. As you can see, Belin immediately says "higher floor" then goes OFF RECORD

Then Baker is talking about his encounter with Inspector Sawyer on the way back down from the roof;

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on either the third or the fourth floor.

This encounter took place on the 4th floor, Baker spoke to Sawyer at the elevators after Sawyer ventured over from the Passenger elevator which he took to the TOP floor for that elevator, which is the 4th floor.

Notice Baker mentions third or the fourth floor in both his affidavit and his testimony. He was accurate in both

 

[Tony Krome]

13 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I forget the Mooney reference.  I remember Vicki Adams trying the passenger elevator before she ran down the back stairs.  Truly's observance of them stuck on the5th floor could be possibly considered an occurrence of such.  Then again this could be accomplished by leaving the gate open.

Mooney took the WEST elevator from the 1st floor to the 2nd floor, then the power was cut, so he took to the stairs

The power cut occurred after the following events;

Mooney races over to the railyards

Mooney receives instructions from Decker to move to the TSBD

Mooney closes the big gates near the rear dock area of the TSBD

Mooney enters the TSBD and boards the WEST elevator on the 1st floor and goes up to the 2nd

Time approx 12:40pm

[Ron Bulman]

26 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Mooney took the WEST elevator from the 1st floor to the 2nd floor, then the power was cut, so he took to the stairs

The power cut occurred after the following events;

Mooney races over to the railyards

Mooney receives instructions from Decker to move to the TSBD

Mooney closes the big gates near the rear dock area of the TSBD

Mooney enters the TSBD and boards the WEST elevator on the 1st floor and goes up to the 2nd

Time approx 12:40pm

Not incredible, impossible.  The devil's in the details.  Any power cuts did not happen after Mooney had time to go to the rail yard.  I don't remember reading about Mooney before, thanks Tony. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Tony Krome]

39 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Not incredible, impossible.  The devil's in the details.  Any power cuts did not happen after Mooney had time to go to the rail yard.  I don't remember reading about Mooney before, thanks Tony. 

Now picture this ... Mooney has abandoned the WEST elevator on the second floor due to a power cut at approx 12:40pm

Then this happens;

Miss ADAMS - I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.

Adams had just came over from the Passenger elevator that also had the power cut.

This is a crucial period of time at the TSBD, they are controlling 6th floor access

Edited March 8, 2019 by Tony Krome

[Cory Santos]

3 hours ago, David Andrews said:

The legend is that pigeons erupted from the roof when shots were fired.  If you're quiet around pigeons on an urban roof, they'll be momentarily disturbed when you enter, but soon return and settle down.  (My Manhattan experience.)  Fire a gun, and it's probable pandemonium, even if fired two floors down.

As far as I know, no one has tried to replicate the pigeon factor.

I believe that one of Officer Marrion Baker's accounts says that his eye was attracted to the TSBD because of pigeon activity - perhaps returning en masse after the shooting stopped.  Perhaps he was not truthful.

Nobody knows what really happened, pigeon wise - but, once on record somewhere,  the idea was colorful enough to make it into the assassination scene opening JFK.  Doves of peace, and all that.  An urban barometer.

Yes, I have neve seen any pictures showing the pigeons in the background.  Odd, you would think many other witnesses would have noticed it, especially those further away from the TSBD.

It gives me yet another reason to question Baker's story if no one else saw it.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Cory Santos

[Joe Bauer]

14 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

 

 

 

 

I think I may have been incorrect in stating the 6th floor TXSCB scene in the film "Executive Action" was filmed on location.

After looking at this again, the windows don't look right in shape and size.

And the 6th floor windows seem higher from the floor in this clip than another still picture I recall seeing. Wonder if this scene wasn't recreated somewhere else/

Maybe I'll just delete both posts if this is the case.

Sorry about stating the scene was really on the TXSCB 6th floor.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[Tony Krome]

41 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

I think I may have been incorrect in stating the 6th floor TXSCB scene in the film "Executive Action" was filmed on location.

After looking at this again, the windows don't look right in shape and size.

And the 6th floor windows seem higher from the floor in this clip than another still picture I recall seeing. Wonder if this scene wasn't recreated somewhere else/

Maybe I'll just delete both posts if this is the case.

Sorry about stating the scene was really on the TXSCB 6th floor.

Yes, off-site location for the 6th floor, but it's good to see how those elevators opened up, thanks for that

Edited March 8, 2019 by Tony Krome

[Ron Bulman]

23 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

The elevators on the 5th floor were stopped there prior to the assassination.  Lee had hollered down to send it up to the 6th floor when they were finished.  Of course, they never did.

I don't think it was Lee that hollered down if something close to this happened.  He was on the first floor, out front with Shelly.

[Ron Bulman]

6 hours ago, Amadeus Sitchin said:

Ron,

Actually, Rich is correct.  Bonnie Ray Williams says they quit about 5 or 10 minutes before 12:00, and he went down in the west elevator. (v3 p167) He also recalls hearing Oswald yell for the elevator, but being on the west elevator; he could not see Oswald and was uncertain which floor Oswald was on.

Bonnie Ray bless his soul was a black man in one of the most racist cities in the US in 1963.  Read the record on DA Henry Wade and convictions on blacks (there's a good movie about one case),  Lavelle, handcuffed to Oswald made some decidedly racist comments later.  Williams statements changed dramatically from after the assassination to his Warrren Commission statement .  There's even a story of a DPD officer moving the chicken bones from the fifth story to the sixth.

Third post here.  "officers heard WFFA's incorrect announcement the chicken bones were found on the sixth floor.  We covered every inch of it and I filmed every inch of it... there were definitely no chicken bones on or near the barricade of boxes.  I filmed everything that could possibly be suspected as evidence."  Tom Alyea 1994

http:search//reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t71-norman-s-hsca-interview-williams-did-not-go-to-the-6th-floor 

Sorry but now I've got chicken bones in my head.  Nothing to do with voodoo.  Come on over baby we got chicken in our bones, bones, bones...

Go to full screen, full volume.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=whole+lot+of+shaking+going+on&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=8b8f4b56e3564622ba2fd2fea00e0e56&sp=1&qs=LS&pq=whole+lot+of+sh&sc=8-15&cvid=8b8f4b56e3564622ba2fd2fea00e0e56

 

[John Kozlowski]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Bonnie Ray bless his soul was a black man in one of the most racist cities in the US in 1963.  Read the record on DA Henry Wade and convictions on blacks (there's a good movie about one case),  Lavelle, handcuffed to Oswald made some decidedly racist comments later.  Williams statements changed dramatically from after the assassination to his Warrren Commission statement .  There's even a story of a DPD officer moving the chicken bones from the fifth story to the sixth.

Third post here.  "officers heard WFFA's incorrect announcement the chicken bones were found on the sixth floor.  We covered every inch of it and I filmed every inch of it... there were definitely no chicken bones on or near the barricade of boxes.  I filmed everything that could possibly be suspected as evidence."  Tom Alyea 1994

http:search//reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t71-norman-s-hsca-interview-williams-did-not-go-to-the-6th-floor 

Sorry but now I've got chicken bones in my head.  Nothing to do with voodoo.  Come on over baby we got chicken in our bones, bones, bones...

Go to full screen, full volume.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=whole+lot+of+shaking+going+on&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=8b8f4b56e3564622ba2fd2fea00e0e56&sp=1&qs=LS&pq=whole+lot+of+sh&sc=8-15&cvid=8b8f4b56e3564622ba2fd2fea00e0e56

 

That never made sense to me. Why eat your lunch on one floor then move to another to watch the parade? What's the point on moving down?