John Butler Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 David, "As for her treatment... please elaborate. She was an American living in a communist country, living as a communist... it would be strange to have a double agent like Childs report on another agent, Grace... if she was acting in that capacity. But it would solidify her cover.... " It's the bit about the FBI alerting various offices and a source in Springfield, Ill to be on the watch for Grace. They also at the same time put out an alert to identify all members of any Soviet delegation coming to the US. (this may not pertain since there is no direct reference to CG 5924-s or Grace. Just my speculation. And, the notion they may begin a counter-intelligence operation against her if she returns to the US. This seems excessive for a citizen out of the country for 16 years even though she and her husband were high ranking communists in Wisconsin and New York. I am doing this from memory. That reference and one other about the visit in 1964 has disappeared. The reference about the source in Springfield is gone. The first timeline on Grace Gardos disappeared being about 3/4 done. It may be sloppy computers usages that lost those files. Maybe not. If I accidently deleted something it would be recoverable from the recycle bin. No such luck. And, guess what? I can't find these materials on the internet to recopy. Enough of my paranoia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 On 12/31/2019 at 3:32 PM, John Butler said: Russ Geck has responded to my latest email this way: John, thank you so much for everything you have sent us. Andi (John Gardos's daughter) and I really appreciate it. Andi would like to offer to you any information you might be interested in. There are some incorrect things we saw in the documents you sent us. For instance, Grace Blair did not reside in or die at the US embassy. She lived in the 13th District in Budapest (Andi can get the address from her mother) and died in a hospital. Andi says Grace and Emil had a picture of US president Jimmy Carter in their home. I know this is probably unimportant to your overall goal of establishing the fact that John Gardos, son of Emil Gardos and Grace Blair, was not, in fact, Lee Harvey Oswald, but if there's any bit of color we can add to that fact, we'd be happy to do so. Just tell us what you're interested in or what you need. I can provide a photocopy of his US passport that was issued on August 6, 1992, his birth certificate, etc. If you have any information on when Emil Gardos left the US in fact, we would be greatly interested in that as well. Thank you for contacting me regarding this. I hope we are able to put this conspiracy theory to rest. Best of luck in the New Year, and please keep in touch. Happy New Year. Russ Geck and Gárdos Andrea (granddaughter of Emil Gárdos and Grace Blair) And, this is how I responded: Russ, If you could, there are a number of questions concerning the Tippit Phone Call document that fellow researchers have concerning the relationship of Emil, Grace, and Fred Blair. We originally thought that, John the son of Grace and Emil, was the Lee Harvey Oswald talked about in the document. That has now been debunked. So, many folks, including myself, feel that there is something to this call. There has to be a reason that the FBI hid this information for nearly 30 years under a Top Secret/ Not to be declassified status. This phone call material and subsequent FBI documents concerning Grace Gardos went directly to the top of the FBI and to a Group 1, I would think this was the top leadership, and also classified as Top Secret / Not to be declassified. So, there are a number of questions. We believe that the FBI was covering up the true situation and may have misled with the information in the document if it ever was exposed. The FBI does those kind of things to hide the identify of their informants. In this case the two Childs brothers Morris and Jack Childs. Do you have any reason to believe that Emil Gardos, Grace Gardos, or Fred Blair could have been temporary foster caretakers in 1945 -47 for any small children refugees from Eastern Europe? Were they the type of people who might have been especially concerned with the plight of Hungarian or other European refugee orphans after WWII? Did they have any connection to any organizations that might have had such hunanitarian interests? When Emil and Grace, and young John were all living in Yorkville, did any of Emil's activities involve anything that led our mysterious woman caller to conclude (erroneously) that Emil was the biological parent of a Russian-speaking little boy from Europe? Did Fred Blair live or visit Yorkville at any time in the 1940s? Particularly, in 1947 during the beginning of the 2nd Red Scare that began after March, 1947? Do you or your wife, Andi, have any information about Louis Weinstock. Information about Louis and Emil working together for refugee causes? Or, how Louis Weinstock might relate to the events in the call? We ask if you or your wife has any information about any connection, no matter how tenuous or brief, between Emil Gardos and/or Grace Gardos and/or Fred Blair and any small boy (besides his own biological son John) in Yorkville in the 1940's. Could any of them have been a caretaker, a foster parent, a temporary custodian, an attendant, etc. to provide refuge for any little boy or boys for any duration in the 1940's? Did the Gardos or Louis Weinstock know Alexander and Mary Fuhrman? They were also Hungarians and not sure whether they were communists or not. They may have been connected to Emil Gardos through coal mine strikes in the late 1920s and early 1930s. Do you recognize the address 77th and 2nd Avenue, NYC. This is an address that does not connect to anything know about this FBI document. We think this is part of the misleading information in the call. I was going to ask about Grace Gardos living at the US embassy in Budapest. But, you have already answered that. Did Emil or Grace know Morris or Jack Childs? Did they know the two brothers were double agents for the FBI? This might explain why Grace was so badly treated by the FBI. I am sorry for relaying so many questions at one time. Feel free to answer only what you are comfortable with or have some knowledge concerning things. I, and others will appreciate greatly whatever help you can give us. John.... Thank you for sending those well thought-out questions to Mr. Geck. His responses may be far more consequential than our attempts to read between the lines of the FBI report of the anonymous woman’s phone call to the Tippits of Connecticut. Yours is serious research. No doubt you’ll tell us about Mr. Geck’s response to your queries ASAP. Frankly, I can’t wait. If you find the opportunity to ask Mr. Geck another question, could you please ask if Public School 30 on 85th St. in Manhattan meant anything to his wife’s father or grandfather? Did they have any memories of PS 30? 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John Butler Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Jim, There some other questions that should be asked. I decided 10 was too many, but went with 10 anyway. The questions I asked are mainly cut and paste from you, Paul, and David. Russ Geck says he will wait and respond to the questions once he has met with Mari Gardos, the wife of John Gardos. He will ask her the questions and then send that info on to us. He sent the 1992 passport of John Gardos as a means of absolutely identifying the photo sent earlier. I am in the same state you are on replies. But, as I reminded Paul, we need to have patience. Actually, this process is moving remarkedly fast. It has been only about 2-3 weeks and we have done a great deal of work on the Tippit Phone Call. The work you, Paul, and David have done to clarify my rather stumbling and bumbling ideas have proved invaluable. Thanks for that. OBTW, I use a link to service for photos. I not sure that the photos will be a permanent record on the forum long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 John, Thanks for the heads-up on photo links. I'll make copies of the images right away. Even if he eventually is unable to turn up any useful information beyond what we already have learned, it is really terrific that Mr. Geck is being so helpful about this! Please keep us posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kowalski Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Jim: Did both Marguerites and Lee and Harvey apply for a social security number, and if yes did he obtain a copy of their SSN applications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 John, We know of only one surviving SS number for LHO and one for Marguerite, but there is plenty of interesting Social Security data John A. uncovered in his research. For example, as John wrote on our website…. In response to Marina Oswald's "Application for Survivors Insurance Benefits" the SSA failed to include Oswald's earnings from Dolly Shoe, Tujague's, J.R. Michaels, the Pfisterer Dental Lab, and the Dept. of the Navy (Marine Corps). The only earnings the SSA included were those from Oswald's earnings in 1962 and 1963, after his return from the Soviet Union. The SSA reported Oswald's total life-time earnings as $3306.85 (based upon the following documents). He goes on to show that the $3306.85 lifetime earnings were simply a total of “Oswald’s” 1962 and 1963 income from William B. Reily & Co., Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, Inc, Leslie Welding, and the Texas School Book Depository. In 1978, in response to a request for information from the HSCA, the SSA wrote back and said it was enclosing, among other things, “Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps.” For much more on this, see OSWALD’S SOCIAL SECURITY RECORDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25539-lee-harvey-oswalds-social-security-no/ Bart says this comes from Malcolm yet I remember seeing the green page version from Steven Gaal many, many years ago... This is what I have for 1955 for Harvey (black) and Lee (Blue)... Marge's info is usually in red... as are the odd years in my spreadsheet. The address for Harvey and "mom" is based on telephone book records and existing historical documents... FWIW 1955 1 24 Dolly Shoe - MO there Truant Dolly NOLA 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA 9th BJHS 1955 2 5 MO worked next at Tradewinds Bar for Cash Truant Dolly NOLA 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA 9th BJHS 1955 3 10 Work Permit issued to HARVEY while living on Exchange Truant Dolly NOLA 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA 9th BJHS 1955 3 12 Working at Dolly with MO Truant Dolly NOLA 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA 9th BJHS 1955 4 15 Letter - you owe utilities on 126 Exchange. DOLLY SHOE FINISHED - both HARVEY and MO let go 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA 9th BJHS Mrs Sawyer rememebrs MO and son - quiet, got home before MO, not loud in ANY way. VOEBEL visits LEE 1955 5 1 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA 9th BJHS 1955 5 15 Name Listed at 120 N Telemachus in reverse directory is "Margt Oswald" while Margueritte is at 126 Exchange NOLA 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA 9th BJHS LEE AND VOEBEL look into Civil Air Patrol 1955 6 5 126 Exchange NOLA 9th BJHS LEE completes a New Orleans school Bio 1955 7 15 NOLA 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA summer Tujagues Lee is already working at Tujague's when ROBERT comes to visit 1955 7 27 NOLA 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA summer Tujagues JOINS Civil Air Patrol and meets FERRIE (see bbq photo) Stops attending meetings very soon after this date 1955 8 1 HARVEY letter states he's been studying MARXISM for 15 months until request for Socialist Party info dated Oct 9 1956 SUMMER Summer NOLA 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA summer Tujagues School year 55-56 1955 9 8 Warren Easton NOLA 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA 10th Tujagues 1955 9 28 Warren Easton NOLA 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA 10th Tujagues 1955 10 2 MO writes that they will be moving to SD this month 1955 10 10 HARVEY wants to join the marines and have MO fake his Birth Cert Warren Easton NOLA 120 N. Telemachus 126 Exchange NOLA 10th Tujagues Decides to leave W.E. and work 1955 10 20? They move to San Diego San Diego ?? 1955 11 10 San Diego ?? 126 Exchange NOLA 10th Tujagues San Diego ?? 126 Exchange NOLA 10th Tujagues 1956 1 11 Moves to CA with MO and works as a messenger for ETI Realty San Diego ?? 126 Exchange NOLA 10th Tujagues 1956 1 20 San Diego ?? 126 Exchange NOLA 10th JR MICHELS Paycheck from J R MICHELS JR 1956 3 1 San Diego ?? 126 Exchange NOLA 10th Tujagues NOLA work permit given to LEE OSWALD while on Exchange 1956 4 15? ETI Realty Co - Laurell Kitrell San Diego ?? 126 Exchange NOLA 10th Tujagues MO Tells Mrs Sawyer - neighbor - that they are moving to Ft Worth 1956 7 1 Application for Reg at Ft Worth Schools MO address - Lois & James Taylor, manager at Collinwood, remembers MO from 7/1/56 - 7/1/57 with ROBERT AND HARVEY/LEE Summer Ft Worth 4936 Collinwood 126 Exchange NOLA 10th Tujagues Tujagues (import export) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jolliffe Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 David, When (if ever) did Margaret Keating sell 120 N. Telemachus? Who bought it? When? Did she own it and live in it until she died in 1972? When Celia died in 1953, Margaret was (presumably) now the sole occupant of 120 N. Telemachus. I agree that the strange entry in the New Orleans phone book for 1956 which lists the owner/resident of 120 N. Telemachus as "Margt Oswald" is very intriguing. She had been divorced from Robert Oswald for a quarter century at that point! Why would the name "Oswald" suddenly pop up? Yet the sole photo we have of her rules her out as our "Marguerite" impostor. Margaret Emma Keating Oswald was born, bred and died in New Orleans. But the "Marguerite" impostor, according to her biographer Jean Stafford, had an accent indistinguishable from New Jersey and parts of NYC (the "Al Smith" accent.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jolliffe Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 On 12/31/2019 at 7:32 AM, Jim Hargrove said: While we’re waiting to see if Mr. Geck and his family can provide any more information on the possible “Oswald” link to Emil Gardos, I’d like to change the subject briefly and ask a question that has been bugging me for decades. In a nutshell that question is, What was the Alice, Texas charade that took place in early October 1963 all about? ALICE, TEXAS It is one of the most obvious and well documented incidents of two Oswalds in evidence, but it never made a lick of sense since the Oswald (often seen with his family!) that appeared in and around Alice (nearly 400 miles south of Dallas) said none of the incriminating things we soon heard from the Oswald who made appearances at the Sports Drome rifle range and all those other spots around Dallas. This Oswald merely appeared to be looking for a job. For anyone who doesn’t recall the story of the Alice, Texas affair, here are the basic details: The FBI and Warren Commission produced pretty convincing evidence that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was in Dallas on Oct. 3 and 4, 1963. The evidence showed that “Oswald” filed an unemployment compensation claim at the Texas Employment Commission, 2210 Main St. in Dallas, on Thursday afternoon, October 3, and spent the night at the downtown Dallas YMCA. On Friday, October 4, he applied for a job at the Padgett Printing Company and filed an application with the Jobco Employment Agency, both in Dallas. Despite that, some 17 witnesses place “Oswald” (sometimes with his family) on those very same days looking for jobs in the broadcast radio business in and around Alice, Texas, some 400 miles south of Dallas. On the evening of October 3, numerous witnesses saw “Oswald” at radio station KOPY in Alice, where he was told to return the next day to meet station manager and vice-president Sonny Stewart. According to multiple witnesses, he did return to station KOPY the next day, Oct. 4. There was even an AP article about his visit: When told there were no positions available at KOPY, “Oswald” asked if any other radio stations in the vicinity might be hiring, and he was told about station KBOP in Pleasanton, where he also appeared to speak with Dr. Ben Parker, who accurately described “Oswald” after the assassination. In restaurants and elsewhere, many other witnesses saw “Oswald” in and around Alice and Pleasanton on Oct 3 and 4, 1963. John Armstrong wrote, “Both the FBI and Warren Commission were aware that "Lee Harvey Oswald" could not have been in both Alice, Texas and Dallas, Texas on October 3rd and 4th at the same time. Chief Justice Earl Warren held up publication of the Warren Report until the FBI completed their "investigation" of the incident at Alice, Texas, because of potentially damaging political issues.” [H&L p. 710] But no one has ever given a plausible explanation about why this stunt was performed. Why? For decades, the best write-up on that Alice, Texas incident has been Chris Courtwright’s fine article, Oswald in Aliceland? A Tale of Two Days: A Tale of Two Oswalds Jim, It is a puzzler. These incidents, as related in Chris Courtwright's fine article, may NOT have all been false "Oswald" sightings - I suspect some of them really were just mistaken identity. Particularly those from Chris's page four summary of the "George Parr" allegations. Those appear to be just a crock, with no evidence at all. William Weston pointed out that our "Oswald" was never positively identified at the Russian or Cuban Consulates in Mexico City a week earlier. I think it notable, however, that the description of the Alice "Oswald" and the Mexico City "Oswald" are similar: dirty, blond, inelegantly dressed and unshaven. Also this "Oswald" was never identified as being more than 5'8" tall. Actually, Sylvia Duran believed he was around 5'3! On the Harvey & Lee homepage http://harveyandlee.net/ is a picture (second from left) of a man who was the spitting image of a known Soviet agent/asset and politician: Nikolai Leonov. Leonov was posted in Mexico City and was an extremely close confidante of Nikita Khrushchev. He served as a translator for Khrushchev and Castro. He was at very near the apex of the Soviet government in 1963. https://alchetron.com/Nikolai-Leonov Nikolai Leonov is a poor candidate for the Alice sightings, but a good one for at least some of the Mexico City sightings. If it was the same man in both Mexico City and around (some) of the alleged sightings in south Texas in early October, than the Alice sightings were very likely an impostor. However, it is possible these sighting were not of the same man. In a couple of the Alice sightings, the name "Oswald" was mentioned, which makes the possibility of an innocent coincidental lookalike very remote. The William Weston thesis is that our "Oswald" was NOT in Dallas on October 3 and 4. The documents Jim reproduced were created by a false "Oswald", argued Weston. (See below.) So, I have to ask: while the Dallas documents from October 3 and 4 are real, what evidence did the Warren Commission produce to show they were written/created by our "Oswald", and not an impostor (possibly even the real LHO!)? Here is William Weston's take on the issues: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48701#relPageId=8&tab=page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Hey Paul, Believe it or not, there were 3 Margaret Keatings.... Siblings Margaret Emma Keating 1892–1972 (m. 1920) James V. Keating II, Margaret's brother marries Edna Margaret Lloyd Keating 1900–1966 They have a son named JAMES VICTOR KEATING III who leaves one daughter, Margaret Elizabeth Keating of Bethesda From H&L: This is the last info on Telemachus in the bookMargaret Keating Oswald was the first wife of Robert E. L. Oswald (father of Robert and Lee Harvey Oswald), whom she divorced in 1933. The court restored her last name to Keating, her maiden name, which she kept for the remainder of her life (she apparently never remarried). The name Margaret Keating and her address, 120 N. Telemachus Street, appear in New Orleans City Directories, telephone books, voter registration records, etc., from 1933 thru the early 1960's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jolliffe Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, David Josephs said: Hey Paul, Believe it or not, there were 3 Margaret Keatings.... Siblings Margaret Emma Keating 1892–1972 (m. 1920) James V. Keating II, Margaret's brother marries Edna Margaret Lloyd Keating 1900–1966 They have a son named JAMES VICTOR KEATING III who leaves one daughter, Margaret Elizabeth Keating of Bethesda From H&L: This is the last info on Telemachus in the bookMargaret Keating Oswald was the first wife of Robert E. L. Oswald (father of Robert and Lee Harvey Oswald), whom she divorced in 1933. The court restored her last name to Keating, her maiden name, which she kept for the remainder of her life (she apparently never remarried). The name Margaret Keating and her address, 120 N. Telemachus Street, appear in New Orleans City Directories, telephone books, voter registration records, etc., from 1933 thru the early 1960's. Thanks, David. A strange coincidence. We can rule out Edna Margaret Lloyd Keating as our impostor "Marguerite" too. Have a look: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/102509084/edna-margaret-keating#view-photo=72849193 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/102509084/edna-margaret-keating#view-photo=80021436 It did occur to me that the 1956 New Orleans phone book anomaly might have been unknown to Margaret Emma Keating Oswald (Robert Sr.'s first wife). It was in the cross directory, right? She might never have noticed it. Do you think there's any chance the 1956 phone book cross directory "Margt Oswald" listing for 120 N. Telemachus was a cover scheme created by the "Harvey Project" handlers as a way to account for the other two Marguerite Oswald's (but both pretending to be the same person) living in New Orleans at the same time? Three Marguerite's but with two different addresses (real address for real Marguerite, but 120 N. Telemachus and "Margt Oswald") would satisfy/confuse/screw up anyone who might stumble across any of them - one would conclude (wrongly) that there just happened to be three women with the same name, not that two of them were supposed to be the same exact woman. Edited January 3, 2020 by Paul Jolliffe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 16 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said: Jim, It is a puzzler. These incidents, as related in Chris Courtwright's fine article, may NOT have all been false "Oswald" sightings - I suspect some of them really were just mistaken identity. Particularly those from Chris's page four summary of the "George Parr" allegations. Those appear to be just a crock, with no evidence at all. William Weston pointed out that our "Oswald" was never positively identified at the Russian or Cuban Consulates in Mexico City a week earlier. I think it notable, however, that the description of the Alice "Oswald" and the Mexico City "Oswald" are similar: dirty, blond, inelegantly dressed and unshaven. Also this "Oswald" was never identified as being more than 5'8" tall. Actually, Sylvia Duran believed he was around 5'3! On the Harvey & Lee homepage http://harveyandlee.net/ is a picture (second from left) of a man who was the spitting image of a known Soviet agent/asset and politician: Nikolai Leonov. Leonov was posted in Mexico City and was an extremely close confidante of Nikita Khrushchev. He served as a translator for Khrushchev and Castro. He was at very near the apex of the Soviet government in 1963. https://alchetron.com/Nikolai-Leonov Nikolai Leonov is a poor candidate for the Alice sightings, but a good one for at least some of the Mexico City sightings. If it was the same man in both Mexico City and around (some) of the alleged sightings in south Texas in early October, than the Alice sightings were very likely an impostor. However, it is possible these sighting were not of the same man. In a couple of the Alice sightings, the name "Oswald" was mentioned, which makes the possibility of an innocent coincidental lookalike very remote. The William Weston thesis is that our "Oswald" was NOT in Dallas on October 3 and 4. The documents Jim reproduced were created by a false "Oswald", argued Weston. (See below.) So, I have to ask: while the Dallas documents from October 3 and 4 are real, what evidence did the Warren Commission produce to show they were written/created by our "Oswald", and not an impostor (possibly even the real LHO!)? Here is William Weston's take on the issues: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=48701#relPageId=8&tab=page Thanks for the reply, Paul. I think about this odd story often, and so your thoughts are appreciated. The whole south Texas saga seems so weird because it occurred immediately after the alleged Mexico City affair—the WC/FBI struggled to get “Oswald” back in Dallas in time for his Texas Employment Commission interview on October 3 More on that below. The assassination patsy plot was clearly underway and one would think the management of the two Oswalds (and any other random impersonations) was surely carefully managed by that time. At least two people at KOPY in Alice thought the fellow who visited them (Stewart apparently wrote down the name “Lee Oswald”) looked like the televised assassination suspect. Ben Parker at KBOP in Pleasantown may have said the suspect had sandy hair, but he also said it could have been the man he saw on television Saturday night. And we have to rely on the FBI to tell us the truth about Parker’s description; there was no ostensibly unfiltered AP report on his encounter. No doubt strange things can happen with eyewitness accounts, but for the life of me I don’t see how “Oswald” could be confused with Nikolai Leonov. I know you’re quite right in citing the variability of the eyewitness statements but, taken as a whole, it is difficult to deny that an “Oswald,” accompanied by a “family,” sought radio station jobs as far south as Alice, TX on Oct. 3rd and 4th. The enduring question is why. Now let’s take a look at the “Oswald” in Dallas on October 3 and 4. William Weston is a very good researcher (thank you for pointing me to his write-up in Fourth Decade), but he may be incorrect in his thesis that the “Oswald” in Dallas on October 3rd and 4th was an impostor, though, with “Oswald,” we always have to define our terms. I think the fellow who visited the Texas Employment Commission in Dallas on Oct. 3 was Classic Oswald®, the Russian-speaking fellow eventually killed by Ruby. That Oct. 3 TEC meeting was actually the first of the infamous encounters Laura Kittrell had with two men of similar appearance who both claimed to be LHO. Here’s an excerpt of how Gaeton Fonzi described his interview with Ms. Kittrell in his 1978 report to the HSCA. Ms. Kittrell’s description of the two Oswalds almost exactly matches the portrait John A. assembled. Harvey, neat, quiet and introverted vs. Lee, sloppy, loud and boisterous. My guess is the TEC encounters with Laura Kittrell represented a deliberate test by the plotters to see if Harvey and Lee could be perceived as one person in by a witness who observed both in close proximity. I can fathom no equally reasonable explanation for the Alice and environs pantomime, which has always bothered me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jolliffe Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) On 1/4/2020 at 8:31 AM, Jim Hargrove said: Thanks for the reply, Paul. I think about this odd story often, and so your thoughts are appreciated. The whole south Texas saga seems so weird because it occurred immediately after the alleged Mexico City affair—the WC/FBI struggled to get “Oswald” back in Dallas in time for his Texas Employment Commission interview on October 3 More on that below. The assassination patsy plot was clearly underway and one would think the management of the two Oswalds (and any other random impersonations) was surely carefully managed by that time. At least two people at KOPY in Alice thought the fellow who visited them (Stewart apparently wrote down the name “Lee Oswald”) looked like the televised assassination suspect. Ben Parker at KBOP in Pleasantown may have said the suspect had sandy hair, but he also said it could have been the man he saw on television Saturday night. And we have to rely on the FBI to tell us the truth about Parker’s description; there was no ostensibly unfiltered AP report on his encounter. No doubt strange things can happen with eyewitness accounts, but for the life of me I don’t see how “Oswald” could be confused with Nikolai Leonov. I know you’re quite right in citing the variability of the eyewitness statements but, taken as a whole, it is difficult to deny that an “Oswald,” accompanied by a “family,” sought radio station jobs as far south as Alice, TX on Oct. 3rd and 4th. The enduring question is why. Now let’s take a look at the “Oswald” in Dallas on October 3 and 4. William Weston is a very good researcher (thank you for pointing me to his write-up in Fourth Decade), but he may be incorrect in his thesis that the “Oswald” in Dallas on October 3rd and 4th was an impostor, though, with “Oswald,” we always have to define our terms. I think the fellow who visited the Texas Employment Commission in Dallas on Oct. 3 was Classic Oswald®, the Russian-speaking fellow eventually killed by Ruby. That Oct. 3 TEC meeting was actually the first of the infamous encounters Laura Kittrell had with two men of similar appearance who both claimed to be LHO. Here’s an excerpt of how Gaeton Fonzi described his interview with Ms. Kittrell in his 1978 report to the HSCA. Ms. Kittrell’s description of the two Oswalds almost exactly matches the portrait John A. assembled. Harvey, neat, quiet and introverted vs. Lee, sloppy, loud and boisterous. My guess is the TEC encounters with Laura Kittrell represented a deliberate test by the plotters to see if Harvey and Lee could be perceived as one person in by a witness who observed both in close proximity. I can fathom no equally reasonable explanation for the Alice and environs pantomime, which has always bothered me. Jim, A few things: 1. I agree with you that Nikolai Leonov does not look much like our "Oswald". My point was that Leonov is the spitting image of the man shown in profile on the second picture at the top of your website - the Mexico City "Oswald"! (Regardless of whether Leonov actually pretended to be our "Oswald" or not, he sure looks like the guy on your website!) 2. The descriptions of LHO's appearance in both Mexico City and around Alice are suspiciously similar: short, dirty, blond, unshaven, and sloppily/very casually dressed. Probably (but NOT certainly) the same guy, in at least a few cases. 3. I agree that Laura Kittrell's first encounter with "Oswald" on October 3 does sound very much like Harvey. If so, then "Oswald" (Harvey) probably could not have been in Alice or south Texas on October 3. Still, the whole spending one night at the Dallas YMCA thing is bizarre - why would poor, parsimonious "Oswald" spend $2.25 to stay for a Thursday night in Dallas when Irving was only 15 miles away? (Unless actually he had been there for a week or so, ever since leaving New Orleans several days prior?) 4. If it really was our "Oswald" (Harvey) in Dallas on October 3 at the TEC, and since we can't account for his whereabouts between New Orleans and Dallas in late September, isn't it possible that our "Oswald" (Harvey) really was at the Dallas Circle Apartments outside Sylvia Odio's door on Wednesday, September 25? After all, at that meeting, "Oswald" didn't say anything incriminating. It was only during the follow-up phone call with "Leopoldo" in which "Oswald" was described as "loco", and capable of shooting the president. 5. I am struck by the fact that none of the south Texas witnesses claimed the language in which "Oswald" and his "wife" conversed was Russian. If it was an "Oswald" impostor on October 3 and 4, then it is plausible to me that his "wife" was not necessarily Russian. Actually, there was an FBI report in which a customer at the Carousel Club claimed that Lee Oswald was "dating" one of Ruby's strippers. She was described as "Mexican". While that would seem to be a poor fit for a duplicate Marina, maybe not. Many Mexican women have lighter hair, and I'm sure this stripper was young and attractive. If the real Lee had hooked up with this stripper, then it's possible that quick, quiet conversations in garbled Spanish/Spanglish/Texican (long recognized as a culturally significant linguistic artifact) or possibly some other language might have remained unintelligible to eavesdroppers. (And honestly, finding a stripper saddled with a young child in tow is not difficult . . .) https://www.nytimes.com/1983/08/02/us/it-s-english-and-it-s-spanish-and-it-s-officially-a-problem.html 6. So the big question remains: what the hell was this all about? Well, I suspect we are looking at the traces of a set-up to have "Oswald" in place to be the patsy if the assassination were to take place in either Houston or San Antonio. Here's President Kennedy at the Brooks Medical Research Center in San Antonio on November 21, 1963. Here's President and Mrs. Kennedy greeting a crowd in Houston on November 21, 1963. I am convinced that had the plotters decided on either Houston or San Antonio, then the Alice/south Texas charade would have paved the way for the "Oswald" family to be in place to be framed. But once the plotters settled on Dallas (apparently sometime between October 4 and October 15), then the whole south Texas/Alice pretense was quietly scrapped. After all we never would have known of it had not various witnesses made noise in the local press. Edited January 5, 2020 by Paul Jolliffe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 22 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said: Jim, A few things: 1. I agree with you that Nikolai Leonov does not look much like our "Oswald". My point was that Leonov is the spitting image of the man shown in profile on the second picture at the top of your website - the Mexico City "Oswald"! (Regardless of whether Leonov actually pretended to be our "Oswald" or not, he sure looks like the guy on your website!) 2. The descriptions of LHO's appearance in both Mexico City and around Alice are suspiciously similar: short, dirty, blond, unshaven, and sloppily/very casually dressed. Probably (but NOT certainly) the same guy, in at least a few cases. 3. I agree that Laura Kittrell's first encounter with "Oswald" on October 3 does sound very much like Harvey. If so, then "Oswald" (Harvey) probably could not have been in Alice or south Texas on October 3. Still, the whole spending one night at the Dallas YMCA thing is bizarre - why would poor, parsimonious "Oswald" spend $2.25 to stay for a Thursday night in Dallas when Irving was only 15 miles away? (Unless actually he had been there for a week or so, ever since leaving New Orleans several days prior?) 4. If it really was our "Oswald" (Harvey) in Dallas on October 3 at the TEC, and since we can't account for his whereabouts between New Orleans and Dallas in late September, isn't it possible that our "Oswald" (Harvey) really was at the Dallas Circle Apartments outside Sylvia Odio's door on Wednesday, September 25? After all, at that meeting, "Oswald" didn't say anything incriminating. It was only during the follow-up phone call with "Lorenzo" in which "Oswald" was described as "loco", and capable of shooting the president. 5. I am struck by the fact that none of the south Texas witnesses claimed the language in which "Oswald" and his "wife" conversed was Russian. If it was an "Oswald" impostor on October 3 and 4, then it is plausible to me that his "wife" was not necessarily Russian. Actually, there was an FBI report in which a customer at the Carousel Club claimed that Lee Oswald was "dating" one of Ruby's strippers. She was described as "Mexican". While that would seem to be a poor fit for a duplicate Marina, maybe not. Many Mexican women have lighter hair, and I'm sure this stripper was young and attractive. If the real Lee had hooked up with this stripper, then it's possible that quick, quiet conversations in garbled Spanish/Spanglish/Texican (long recognized as a culturally significant linguistic artifact) might have remained unintelligible to eavesdroppers. (And honestly, finding a stripper saddled with a young child in tow is not difficult . . .) https://www.nytimes.com/1983/08/02/us/it-s-english-and-it-s-spanish-and-it-s-officially-a-problem.html 6. So the big question remains: what the hell was this all about? Well, I suspect we are looking at the traces of a set-up to have "Oswald" in place to be the patsy if the assassination were to take place in either Houston or San Antonio. Here's President Kennedy at the Brooks Medical Research Center in San Antonio on November 21, 1963. Here's President and Mrs. Kennedy greeting a crowd in Houston on November 21, 1963. I am convinced that had the plotters decided on either Houston or San Antonio, then the Alice/south Texas charade would have paved the way for the "Oswald" family to be in place to be framed. But once the plotters settled on Dallas (apparently sometime between October 4 and October 15), then the whole south Texas/Alice pretense was quietly scrapped. After all we never would have known of it had not various witnesses made noise in the local press. Paul, 1. Yeah, it sure does look like this Leonov fellow. Can you make any sense of that? Or suggest a theory? According to Jefferson Morley, Leonov was an interpreter for Castro when he visited the USSR in the spring of 1963. Who do we distrust less in this case, Cuban intel, or Russian intel or U.S. intel? 2. Good point but, while admitting that I haven’t studied all the original source material, the best IDs seemed to be from the radio station employees at KOPY and KBOP, especially KOPY, and the witnesses thought the fellow they saw was or could be “Oswald.” Do you know if Leonov spoke English well enough to interact with Americans in south Texas? 3. Yeah, Harvey always seemed poor as a church mouse, at least until he was on assignment. After, we’re told, saving his non-convertible military scrip, he traveled to first class hotels in Europe and Moscow and could afford a private tour guide in Moscow. Then, after several years of apparent poverty in the U.S., suddenly in 1963 he apparently could afford once more to travel to Cuba and Russia, or at least appeared to be making plans to do so. We can probably both think of a potential reason to keep him comfortably settled in a hotel room in Dallas while certain events allegedly unfolded in Mexico City, though I'm not at all sure that's what happened. 4. Absolutely! Based on John A’s research and writing, I think it WAS Harvey Oswald at Sylvia Odio's. 5. If memory serves there is some other evidence as well, going back at least to the USMC, that LEE spoke some Spanish, a little at least. 6. This never occurred to me and is fascinating. If plans were being considered for a hit in San Antonio and/or Houston, does that mean there was a fellow, perhaps going by the name “Lee Oswald,” being prepared for a job in a building along the parade route? Would someone who looked like him have gone to local rifle ranges to shoot at other people’s targets, and so on? Mrs. Paine called Roy Truly on Oct. 15 to start the process in motion to put Classic Oswald® in the TSBD, so the timing here makes complete sense. The only alternative I can imagine would be that the Alice trip was related somehow to the Mexico City saga, either to show LHO on his way home from meeting a Soviet assassin there, or, somehow, as an alibi indicating the guy wasn’t in MC at all. Your thoughts on this are appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Jolliffe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 18 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said: Paul, 1. Yeah, it sure does look like this Leonov fellow. Can you make any sense of that? Or suggest a theory? According to Jefferson Morley, Leonov was an interpreter for Castro when he visited the USSR in the spring of 1963. Who do we distrust less in this case, Cuban intel, or Russian intel or U.S. intel? 2. Good point but, while admitting that I haven’t studied all the original source material, the best IDs seemed to be from the radio station employees at KOPY and KBOP, especially KOPY, and the witnesses thought the fellow they saw was or could be “Oswald.” Do you know if Leonov spoke English well enough to interact with Americans in south Texas? 3. Yeah, Harvey always seemed poor as a church mouse, at least until he was on assignment. After, we’re told, saving his non-convertible military scrip, he traveled to first class hotels in Europe and Moscow and could afford a private tour guide in Moscow. Then, after several years of apparent poverty in the U.S., suddenly in 1963 he apparently could afford once more to travel to Cuba and Russia, or at least appeared to be making plans to do so. We can probably both think of a potential reason to keep him comfortably settled in a hotel room in Dallas while certain events allegedly unfolded in Mexico City, though I'm not at all sure that's what happened. 4. Absolutely! Based on John A’s research and writing, I think it WAS Harvey Oswald at Sylvia Odio's. 5. If memory serves there is some other evidence as well, going back at least to the USMC, that LEE spoke some Spanish, a little at least. 6. This never occurred to me and is fascinating. If plans were being considered for a hit in San Antonio and/or Houston, does that mean there was a fellow, perhaps going by the name “Lee Oswald,” being prepared for a job in a building along the parade route? Would someone who looked like him have gone to local rifle ranges to shoot at other people’s targets, and so on? Mrs. Paine called Roy Truly on Oct. 15 to start the process in motion to put Classic Oswald® in the TSBD, so the timing here makes complete sense. The only alternative I can imagine would be that the Alice trip was related somehow to the Mexico City saga, either to show LHO on his way home from meeting a Soviet assassin there, or, somehow, as an alibi indicating the guy wasn’t in MC at all. Your thoughts on this are appreciated. Jim, 1. The simplest explanation is that the photo supplied by the Cubans to the HSCA was an artifact and not a real image captured outside the Cuban Consulate in 1963. Instead, at some later date, some CIA operative substituted the image of the "real Oswald impostor" (Lee? Someone else?) with this image of Leonov. The Cubans innocently then gave this switched image to the HSCA, even though it was inauthentic. However, that "simple" explanation is not very convincing to me. Another possibility is that the image at the top of your webpage is not, in fact of Leonov at all, but of a Leonov impostor, probably from the CIA. This has a kind of logic to it: the plotters knew that our "Oswald" (Harvey) never went to Mexico City, but they deliberately planned the impersonation there to FAIL , thus revealing that the "Oswald" impersonator was . . . a known Soviet operative/official! A man who was a close personal confidant of both Castro and Khrushchev - a perfect patsy himself! Thus implicating the USSR in the assassination, somehow . . . But I don't like that one, either. Too messy, and anyway, the guy doesn't merely resemble Leonov, he is the spitting image of Leonov! Maybe Dick Russell was on to something when he wrote that Richard Case Nagell was working with Soviet intelligence to kill Oswald and stop the assassination. I don't fully trust Nagell as a source, but could the Soviets have been aware that something funny involving somebody posing as "Oswald" was going on inside the Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27? And if they did, would they react immediately once they realized that "Oswald" had this bizarre history in the USSR himself? Could a highly trusted Spanish speaking Soviet official have been dispatched by Khrushchev himself to investigate??? That seems doubtful, too, but I just don't have any other ideas at the moment. We'll have to leave it for now with the agreement that, whoever he was, he sure looked a heckuva lot like Leonov! 2. The identifications by the radio station guys as our "Oswald" may not be 100% based on their memories of the man's appearance, but instead may be based on the fact that the guy used the name "Lee Oswald." After all, Parker did note a difference in hair color, a difference picked up by several witnesses. You and I agree that the south Texas LHO was not our "Oswald" up in Dallas, being interviewed by Laura Kittrell at TEC. 3. and 4. You and I agree that our Dallas "Oswald" was very probably outside Sylvia Odio's door in Dallas on 9/25/63. We agree that our "Oswald" was at the TEC in Dallas on Thursday, October 3. We agree that there is no convincing evidence that our "Oswald" went to Mexico City at all in the interim. So, since he really was at the Dallas YMCA the night of Thursday, October 3, isn't it probable that his handlers had put him up there for the entire week before while his doppelganger was down in Mexico City? (There is no reason why they should have put him up in a nicer lodging for a few days, and then switched him to the YMCA for the last night. Instead, I bet he was there all along.) 5. I don't know what language the "wife" of LHO was speaking down in south Texas/Alice, but nobody claimed it was Russian. There is no reason to assume the Marina impostor was speaking Russian. She and her "husband" may have been speaking something as simple as garbled Spanish. (Or not, but it doesn't matter. It wasn't Marina.) 6. You wrote "does that mean there was a fellow, perhaps going by the name “Lee Oswald,” being prepared for a job in a building along the parade route? Would someone who looked like him have gone to local rifle ranges to shoot at other people’s targets, and so on? Mrs. Paine called Roy Truly on Oct. 15 to start the process in motion to put Classic Oswald® in the TSBD, so the timing here makes complete sense." Yessir! That's exactly what I think! Had the plotters decided on San Antonio or Houston, then you bet there would have been a host of weird "Oswald" sightings wielding a rifle in either city! These south Texas/Alice sightings below were some of the CIA's "backstopping" of the tentative (and ultimately discarded) "Oswald" San Antonio story: I. The unnamed, not interviewed by the FBI waitress at the B.F. Cafe in Freer Texas whose boss told the FBI that the "Oswald" she met wanted a job in Freer, and asked specifically how far it was to San Antonio. When told it was 100 miles, this "Oswald" reacted in surprise. (The FBI did NOT want any confirmation of this one!) II. Martha Doyle and Joan Dunsmore of the San Antonio International Airport statement: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96293&relPageId=4&search=Martha_Doyle https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=96293&relPageId=7&search=Joan_Dunsmore III. The Stanley Moczygemba account about picking up a hitchhiking "Oswald" early on Saturday morning, October 5 in San Antonio and driving south to Leming, Texas. And here are some examples of witness statements about the CIA's tentative and ultimately discarded plan to backstop the "Oswald" in Houston story: From John Armstrong's 1997 speech to C'OPA: I. A few days later an "Oswald" applied for a job at the Continental Oil Company in Houston. This person identified himself as "Lee Oswald" and was interviewed by Mrs. Sheppard. He told her he had just returned from Mexico with a friend and that they had tried to proceed from Mexico to Cuba. Oswald told her he was staying at the Savoy apartments two blocks away. II. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9986&relPageId=63&search=Continental_oil Company III. A Houston Chronicle article stating that Oswald stayed at the Savoy for a few days in late September of 1963 while interviewing at Conoco. https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Before-it-turned-into-Holiday-Inn-Savoy-Hotel-4583519.php#item-85307-tbla-25 IV. George Ryan, manager of the Stop-N-Go drive-in grocery in Houston told the FBI that Oswald tried on three successive days to cash a $65 check at his store. He told the Houston Press he was under orders from the FBI not to discuss the case. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10477&relPageId=662&search=George_Ryan So, I am positive that in the Alice/south Texas stories we are looking at the vestiges of the unused backstopped stories of "Oswald's" movements in the days before he would have settled in with a job in either San Antonio or Houston. But once the plotters decided on Dallas (after October 5 but before October 15), then none of these sightings of the false "Oswald" in south Texas/Alice were useful to the plotters. And so these witnesses were ignored. "Backstopping" has long been a very important intelligence concept: http://intelligenceref.blogspot.com/2010/08/backstop.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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